Search found 2998 matches

by Jack Kelso
Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:10 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Well, while I would say that "any reasonable" and "the greatest" are not in any way compatible concepts, I would also like to say that I have found that Berlioz fits the "deepest spiritual feeling, intensity, broadest emotional power and highest inspirational levels" category to a tee. I have notic...
by Jack Kelso
Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:09 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?
Replies: 63
Views: 3569

Re: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?

We must not forget that the language of popular music is "the word" ("lyrics"). A neighbor of ours was telling me about this new "album" he bought (I forgot what group sings), but it suddenly occurred to me that pop-fans describe their music only in non-musical terms----they talk about the text, the...
by Jack Kelso
Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:54 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Bummer ...
Replies: 9
Views: 909

Re: Smetana box set

We have both Kubelik and Neumann doing all nine Smetana tone poems. Kubelik stresses more the lyrical approach, Neumann's interpretations tend to be more dramatic. Both are essential, IMHO, for a complete understanding of the great Czech Master's orchestral works.

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:47 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

We should make mention of which criteria are used when discussing any reasonable listing of "the greatest" anything. If one wishes to use qualities such as deepest spiritual feeling, intensity, broadest emotional power and highest inspirational levels then such masters as Handel, J.S. Bach, Mozart, ...
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:14 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Well, a musicologist such as yourself, Jack , we can trust to have the inside track on who the Ten Greatest Composers of All Time are. And naturally Schumann and Handel made it in the first draft. Cheers, ~Karl So right you are, Karl. Do you wish some source material on that....?! 8) Tschüß, Jack
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:51 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Bummer ...
Replies: 9
Views: 909

Re: Smetana box set

My Smetana preference is Vaclav Neumann, a VERY under-appreciated conductor. Alone, the early "Swedish" symphonic poems (esp. "Haakon Jarl" is worth getting: listen for the influence of Tschaikowsky's Romeo theme from "Romeo and Juliet"!!).

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:44 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

LOL Cheers, ~Karl Yep, and Handel, J.S. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Wagner make it as well..... (P.S.: I just received the 2-disc recording of Dorati performing the four Tschaikowsky orchestral suites---absolutely marvelous music, wonderfully performed!!. I like No. 3 best---so far.) Tschüß, Jack
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:28 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: What Is Your Mozart Top 10?
Replies: 27
Views: 1491

Re: What Is Your Mozart Top 10?

Less dumb than most of the BBC's other poll results, but any list of Mozart's "top 10" works that doesn't include a single complete opera, doesn't measure up. Likewise a piano concerto. Indeed, I could fill all 10 slots with great Mozart piano concertos. Some critic, somewhere---stated that the pia...
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:24 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Interesting article. We all surely have our PERSONAL 10 list. Most would probably concur. It all boils down to what we like, but then even the masses would seem to concur. If I had to pick 10 composers of all time, but NOT keeping them in any particular numerical sequence, it would go like this: JS...
by Jack Kelso
Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:30 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: What Is Your Mozart Top 10?
Replies: 27
Views: 1491

Re: What Is Your Mozart Top 10?

John F wrote:Less dumb than most of the BBC's other poll results, but any list of Mozart's "top 10" works that doesn't include a single complete opera, doesn't measure up.
Likewise a piano concerto.

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:01 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: 12 Top Piano Composers
Replies: 30
Views: 1259

Re: 12 Top Piano Composers

karlhenning wrote:Ray! I cannot believe that Chopin is not in the Top Five! : )

Cheers,
~Karl
Hmm. Simple. Extract Brahms----insert Chopin. :wink:

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:04 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century
Replies: 56
Views: 3828

Re: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century

Well, gosh Karl----I'm awfully sorry if there are other opinions from great 20th-century composers that don't agree with yours. Ad hominem and specious, Jack . This is not about who agrees with me; it is about the facts. You must consider, Jack , whether you are interested in the facts, or only wit...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:35 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Great composers dealing with pressure
Replies: 10
Views: 604

Re: Great composers dealing with pressure

Schumann left a good deal of musings and other writings behind so that we can form a pretty good picture of the stress which he created for himself to get into the composing "mood". He was one of those masters who drove themselves into an intensive "high" or creative heat. Well----whatever works.......
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:16 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century
Replies: 56
Views: 3828

Re: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century

Well, gosh Karl----I'm awfully sorry if there are other opinions from great 20th-century composers that don't agree with yours. And yes, I can hum or whistle quite a bit from various Hindemith, Bartok, Stravinsky (etc.) works, since their music is (largely) tonal. There is also much music by Henze t...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:34 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century
Replies: 56
Views: 3828

Re: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century

As Schostakowitsch, Britten and Hindemith as well as other great composers said almost fifty years ago, 12-tone composers can't write a whistleable tune that one can remember when exiting the concert hall. All three of them said that? Extraordinary! :wink: There is no precedent for continuous appre...
by Jack Kelso
Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:06 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century
Replies: 56
Views: 3828

Re: Traditional Classical vs. Contemporary 20th/21st Century

Contemporary "classical" music has totally lost its public. As Schostakowitsch, Britten and Hindemith as well as other great composers said almost fifty years ago, 12-tone composers can't write a whistleable tune that one can remember when exiting the concert hall. While I enjoy an occasion atonal w...
by Jack Kelso
Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:27 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

....and now, Ladies and Gentlemen, by (near) popular demand for our anti-Austro-German delegation out there (wherever it is!), here is THEIR chronological listing of the TOP TEN: 1. Purcell 2. Vivaldi 3. Cherubini 4. Berlioz 5. Chopin 6. Verdi 7. Tschaikowsky 8. Dvorak 9. Sibelius 10. Prokofiev "The...
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:05 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

I know, I know Jack, but I did "qualify" my responses by noting the comment in red, below. I did that to avoid a "placement" since all of those I listed would probably be a Numero Uno! :D Interesting article. We all surely have our PERSONAL 10 list. Most would probably concur. It all boils down to ...
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:48 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Composer Anniversaries 2011?
Replies: 42
Views: 2512

Re: Composer Anniversaries 2011?

A great friend of mine out on the west coast (who is both a huge Liszt fan, and alive to the unevenness of his oeuvre ) accumulated a few of those Hyperion discs on initial release. The value is in having fresh recordings of so much which is rare; the occasional downside is, that (apart from questi...
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:17 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Okay, I saw Wagner posted by RebLem......!

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:15 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Interesting article. We all surely have our PERSONAL 10 list. Most would probably concur. It all boils down to what we like, but then even the masses would seem to concur. If I had to pick 10 composers of all time, but NOT keeping them in any particular numerical sequence, it would go like this: JS...
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:11 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Isn't this funny? I don't believe Wagner has been mentioned even ONCE here....or did I miss something...?!

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:05 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

If its only going to be 10, here's mine listed in chronological order by date of death: J.S. Bach W.A. Mozart F.J. Haydn L.V. Beethoven R. Schumann J. Brahms A. Dvorak S. Prokofiev I. Stravinsky D. Shostakovich That's a pretty good list, but I would exchange Dvorak and Shostakowitsch for Handel and...
by Jack Kelso
Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:02 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know
Replies: 76
Views: 2780

Re: Top 10 Composers Of All Time-NY Times Wants To Know

Still, does Handel make the cut for the Top 10? I don’t know. I think he should pay a price for churning out all those da capo arias. I seldom say this when reading Tommasini, but this earns the remark: I love it! Cheers, ~Karl So what does one expect from 1735? Through-composed operas with leitmot...
by Jack Kelso
Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:27 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: What NEW discs/music are you adding to your collection?
Replies: 3775
Views: 265752

Re: What NEW discs/music are you adding to your collection?

Chalkperson wrote:I always thought that "Kna" looked like Charlie Chaplin in the photo above... :wink:
Yep, but instead of a cane Hans has a "magic wand" (baton!)..... :D

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:13 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?
Replies: 63
Views: 3569

Re: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?

For us, the one big "turn-off" for pop is its pervasiveness. Everywhere you go----shopping for food, eating out (even in a good restaurant!), watching t.v., visiting a beer-fest, etc.----there it is, and oftentimes way too loud! If a person wishes to avoid classical music it's no problem; but no one...
by Jack Kelso
Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:00 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Mahler's Second----best recording....?!
Replies: 46
Views: 3513

Re: Mahler's Second----best recording....?!

I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker Tore F Steenslid Sotra, Norway http://www.steenslid.com Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers! :lol: Tschüß, Jack
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:38 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?
Replies: 63
Views: 3569

Re: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?

Classical Music does not render instant gratification to the listener and requires an attention span greater than three minutes and that is why Classical Music is considered - quite correctly - an elitist pursuit, it does not and never will have mass appeal, it requires effort. Very succinctly put ...
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:52 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Vincent d'Indy...
Replies: 15
Views: 1513

Re: Vincent d'Indy...

Actually, I think Vincent d'Indy is no different from Haydn and Mozart: producing good formatted music, sound sounds, excellent symmetry and great structural architecture, everything falling into place as it should. Could expectations for the early 20th century be different from expectations for th...
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:19 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?
Replies: 63
Views: 3569

Re: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?

Classical Music does not render instant gratification to the listener and requires an attention span greater than three minutes and that is why Classical Music is considered - quite correctly - an elitist pursuit, it does not and never will have mass appeal, it requires effort. Very succinctly put ...
by Jack Kelso
Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:07 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Best "First" symphonies
Replies: 69
Views: 3331

Re: Best "First" symphonies

Which Beethoven 1 is best? Toscanini/NBC Reiner/CSO Abbado/BPO IMNSHO, Solti is definitely best in both the first two symphonies, but you should be warned he does have a controversial POV of them. He doesn't see them as mere study symphonies written as practice before the Eroica; he sees them as fu...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:34 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?
Replies: 63
Views: 3569

Re: Why Do So Many People Think Classical Music Is Elitist?

No, you are right----Sandow is flat wrong. What does he expect serious musicians to do?! Should they toss out all the atonal works of the last 100 years? Should they re-write Alban Berg and Hans Werner Henze so they sound like James Last and his orchestra?! Art music can only maintain its unique pos...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:21 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Mahler's Second----best recording....?!
Replies: 46
Views: 3513

Re: Mahler's Second----best recording....?!

Klemperer Philharmonia EMI and Bernstein NYP Sony are the ones I turn to the most, with the Walter a sentimental favorite. I have always heard that the Mehta 2nd was one of his better recordings, but I do not think I have ever heard it. I know those by Walter, Bernstein, Klemperer, Solti and lots o...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:11 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Philisophical question: "Why do you listen to the radio?"
Replies: 48
Views: 1948

Re: Philisophical question: "Why do you listen to the radio?"

I have not listened to the Radio for at least 35 years... 99.8% of the time I listen to the radio, I'm in the car. Cheers, ~Karl Same here. Or we hear the SWR2 Konzert zum Mittag----during lunch/dinnertime....provided the pieces they play do not contain more digestive sounds than that which we need...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:52 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Mahler's Second----best recording....?!
Replies: 46
Views: 3513

Mahler's Second----best recording....?!

My wife gave me for Christmas Zubin Mehta's 1974 recording with the Vienna Phil.---and I am duly impressed! For me, it even beats out the Solti, which is very fine indeed. Mehta doesn't drag the first mvt (21 min.), rather respects the "Allegro maestoso" marking. He brings out the dramatic, poetic a...
by Jack Kelso
Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:50 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Best "First" symphonies
Replies: 69
Views: 3331

Re: Best "First" symphonies

Two of the very finest "First Symphonies" which are little-known are those of Robert Volkmann in D Minor, op. 44 and Hermann Goetz in F Major, op. 9.

Both should be in the standard repertoire.

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:12 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Is Classical Music Superior To Other Kinds Of Music?
Replies: 133
Views: 4150

Re: Is Classical Music Superior To Other Kinds Of Music?

nothing is worse in my book than elitism, What's the matter with elitism? I think it's a good thing, especially in a field like music, which is so difficult to master that only a few people do outstanding work in it. I think it only fit to celebrate those elite few. My answer has nothing to do with...
by Jack Kelso
Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:45 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Is Classical Music Superior To Other Kinds Of Music?
Replies: 133
Views: 4150

Re: Is Classical Music Superior To Other Kinds Of Music?

nothing is worse in my book than elitism, What's the matter with elitism? I think it's a good thing, especially in a field like music, which is so difficult to master that only a few people do outstanding work in it. I think it only fit to celebrate those elite few. My answer has nothing to do with...
by Jack Kelso
Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:05 pm
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Is Classical Music Superior To Other Kinds Of Music?
Replies: 133
Views: 4150

Re: Is Classical Music Superior To Other Kinds Of Music?

It's all just Music, be it Baroque or Reggae...it makes people think, it makes them happy, and, it can make them sad, no reason to consider one Genre better than the other IMHO...even the word 'Superior' has a pretentious ring about it... :wink: So, Chalkie---for you nothing is "superior" or "bette...
by Jack Kelso
Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:34 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Schumann 200
Replies: 56
Views: 4526

Re: Schumann 200

That [Orfeo set] is one of the most extraordinary multi-disc sets of DFD you will ever have. It is well recorded and features the legendary Gerald Moore at the piano. The Moore/Fischer-Dieskau lieder duo was probably the finest that has ever lived since recordings began. Other than Fischer-Dieskau ...
by Jack Kelso
Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:30 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Franz Liszt Vs Parrot
Replies: 9
Views: 569

Re: Franz Liszt Vs Parrot

As a teenager I had a parakeet who ALWAYS chirped (not squawked!) when I put Wagner's "Der fliegende Holländer" Overture on. To other composers he was pretty much mute.

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:54 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings
Replies: 21
Views: 1664

Re: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings

Of course, if the Schumann threads irritate you too much you really don't have to read them..... :lol: But, if I did that I would have nothing to ridicule...luckily, Le Rat only recorded the Piano Concerto and that was twenty years ago, fortunately he did not record the Symphonies, and that is abou...
by Jack Kelso
Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:47 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings
Replies: 21
Views: 1664

Re: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings

Of course, if the Schumann threads irritate you too much you really don't have to read them..... :lol: But, if I did that I would have nothing to ridicule...luckily, Le Rat only recorded the Piano Concerto and that was twenty years ago, fortunately he did not record the Symphonies, and that is abou...
by Jack Kelso
Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:57 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Best "First" symphonies
Replies: 69
Views: 3331

Re: Best "First" symphonies

absinthe wrote:Walton's.
Thank you----you just reminded me that I forgot ELGAR'S FIRST. It's one of the major late-Romantic masterpieces.

Tschüß,
Jack
by Jack Kelso
Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:28 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Schumann 200
Replies: 56
Views: 4526

Re: Schumann 200

Schumann: I have just introduced myself to his works for Cello Jared, can I ask what disc/s you are using to carry out this endeavour :?: :) try this little delight, Darren: http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Romantic/CelloGastinel.jpg I don't know that one, Jared....but if ...
by Jack Kelso
Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:16 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings
Replies: 21
Views: 1664

Re: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings

Speaking of Schumann, as his year winds down... [/size] Yippee...it seemed more like a decade than a year... Well then----2011 will be a joyous continuation of reviewing the new Schumann recordings! So you can look forward to perhaps even more postings about his music. Of course, if the Schumann th...
by Jack Kelso
Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:05 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Best "First" symphonies
Replies: 69
Views: 3331

Re: Best "First" symphonies

Amazing---this thread is just BEGGING for it. So here it is: Schumann's First, a truly original and highly expressive first. Also, those single ones of Bizet, Franck, Dukas, etc. DO qualify for "firsts", since that's what they really are....regardless of the fact that they stand alone in their compo...
by Jack Kelso
Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:59 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: Which complete Brahms chamber music set should I get?
Replies: 12
Views: 2183

Re: Which complete Brahms chamber music set should I get?

I would also recommend that Brilliant Classics recording of Brahms' Piano Quartets as well as their Clarinet Quintet, Clarinet Trio and clarinet sonatas. The double-disc offer from NAXOS of the piano trios 1-3 and the Trio in A Major with the Vienna Piano Trio is also a great bargain. I enjoy them. ...
by Jack Kelso
Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:52 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings
Replies: 21
Views: 1664

Re: NY Times Favorite Schumann Recordings

Older recordings of just about every master are at least as fine as the newer ones. Schumann is no different. My PERSONAL favorites (for what they're worth) are: Symphonies: Levine (except for the finale of the Fourth!), Muti and Sawalisch for complete sets. I recently got Inbal's First and Third (P...
by Jack Kelso
Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:18 am
Forum: Classical Music Chatterbox
Topic: MPR's latest abuse of music: ruining Christmas
Replies: 27
Views: 1751

Re: MPR's latest abuse of music: ruining Christmas

German radio stations used to play (25 years ago!) primarily the church hymns and German "caroles" (like "O, Tannenbaum"), now they've become Americanized and play both English and American Christmas songs as well (e.g., "Jingle Bells" and "Frosty the Snowman"). Fortunately, they don't overdo it----...