Best recording of Mahler Fifth?

MACHINA weapon · Post by **MACHINA weapon** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:40 pm

Recently my store has few copies of Barshai's Mahler 5 & 10 CDs. Now all you guys should know how well-raved Barshai recording is. But I'm fascinated to find Levine's underrated, but equally raved Mahler 5th as well.

Which is better? I've heard Zander, Bernstein, Barenboim, Nanut, Barbirolli and none of them had "enough" vehemence for the second movement. Favorites in my list is Bernstein (his Scherzo is unsurpassed) and Barenboim CSO.

pizza · Post by **pizza** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:49 pm

The Barshai leaves all the others in the dust -- a fascinating state of affairs considering the make-up of his orchestra! If you want a professional review of the performance:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... arshai.htm

C.B. · Post by **C.B.** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:00 am

Try Boulez's Fifth on DG--surprisingly good. The orchestra, the Vienna Philharmonic, will blow you away. Very good engineering as well.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:20 am

MACHINA weapon wrote:Barenboim CSO.

Barenboim /CSO is very good, despite initial lukewarm-poor reviews..

but my faves are Solti I and II ['70,'90] and Abbado/CSO on DG.

Walter/NYPO is a great historical recording from 1947.

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:42 am

Bernstein/VPO has always blown away the competition in this piece for me.

GK · Post by GK » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:07 am

For a long time I touted the Sinopoly version but recently heard a Solti version which may even be better. I didn't get information on which of the Solti's it was.

mahlerfan · Post by **mahlerfan** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:27 pm

I like the Bernstein/VPO, the Gielen and will be listening to the Chailly one soon... probably tonight!

Scott Morrison · Post by **Scott Morrison** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:50 pm

pizza wrote:The Barshai leaves all the others in the dust -- a fascinating state of affairs considering the make-up of his orchestra! If you want a professional review of the performance:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... arshai.htm

I don't know this recording, but I see that the first of the two reviews at this link is by Tony Duggan. He has never steered me wrong on a Mahler recording.

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:38 pm

I love Bernstein's DG recording and I agree that Barshai is excellent. BUT...please check out Chailly and the Royal Concertgebouw. I think it's spectacularly fine.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:08 pm

I'll have to get the Barshai with such enthusiastic recommendations. I still like Scherchen thus far, although Bernstein is a must-have.

CharmNewton · Post by **CharmNewton** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:35 pm

While I deeply love Walter's NYPO recording (it has good mono sound) and Solti/CSO I (I think the 5th was Solti's favorite judging from the number of performances it received), if I had to have one it would be Dohnanyi/Cleveland. Awesome recorded sound, unmatched orchestral playing and a finale that is thrilling. Very satiisfying.

John

Gregory Kleyn · Post by **Gregory Kleyn** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:36 pm

pizza wrote:The Barshai leaves all the others in the dust -- a fascinating state of affairs considering the make-up of his orchestra! If you want a professional review of the performance:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... arshai.htm

I've never found myself in much agreement with Tony Duggan about Mahler recordings. Is this truly an independently judged confirmation by you, - or merely a reflection of your excessive suggestibility and "bandwagon" tendencies?

Duggan also speaks highly of Frank Shipway's recording. Assuming you've heard it, do you concur with him here as well?

BTW, alleviate my suspicions and tell me some instances where you find yourself in considerable disagreement with Duggan's Mahler recommendations.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:46 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote: [I've never found myself in much agreement with Tony Duggan about Mahler recordings.

same here, I appreciate the time and energy he devotes to the project, but I don't agree with him much at all.

pizza · Post by **pizza** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:37 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote:
pizza wrote:The Barshai leaves all the others in the dust -- a fascinating state of affairs considering the make-up of his orchestra! If you want a professional review of the performance:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... arshai.htm

I've never found myself in much agreement with Tony Duggan about Mahler recordings. Is this truly an independently judged confirmation by you, - or merely a reflection of your excessive suggestibility and "bandwagon" tendencies?

Duggan also speaks highly of Frank Shipway's recording. Assuming you've heard it, do you concur with him here as well?

BTW, alleviate my suspicions and tell me some instances where you find yourself in considerable disagreement with Duggan's Mahler recommendations.

If you had read some of my earlier reviews of this performance, along with the recently released Barshai 10th on Brilliant Classics, you'd see that the judgment was mine, as it is in all cases. I didn't feel compelled to write a major review of this wonderful performance, which Duggan had already done, so I offered his valuable and worthwhile effort instead for anyone to read. Barshai's recording has been well-known and well-received through word of mouth on the Internet ever since it was released, two reasons being that the orchestra was a student orchestra whose performance far surpassed that of many major established orchestras, and it was recorded in one live take before an audience. I assume you haven't heard it judging from your post and have already decided to dislike it if you ever should, since Duggan thinks so highly of it. Incidentally, I had known of this performance even before it hit the market as I had often exchanged information and ideas with the late Herschel Burke Gilbert, the owner and producer of Laurel Records and he had mentioned it with justifiable pride.

Never heard the Shipway and frankly don't give a flip about your "suspicions"; I'm sure you can figure out where to stuff them along with the imaginary "bandwagon" you've invented without the need for a lengthy explanation.

You may have noticed that this thread asks for recommendations of the best recordings of Mahler 5 but there are none whatsoever from you. Have you ever heard the symphony?

Peter Schenkman · Post by **Peter Schenkman** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:03 am

Nobody has mentioned Karajan (Berlin) or Leinsdorf (Boston) so I’m going to opt for them. The fact that the first time I heard, played or recorded the Mahler Fifth Symphony was with Mr. Leinsdorf in Boston circa 1963-64 doesn’t in any way affect my judgement or critical perception’s (ha), he certainly knew his way around the Mahler Symphonies as did Karajan at least judging from his Five, Six and Nine.

Peter Schenkman

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:50 am

Ephemera, there is no such thing as a best recording of anything. There I`ve gone and said what I think. Sorry, carry on.

Gregory Kleyn · Post by **Gregory Kleyn** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:43 pm

Steven wrote:Ephemera, there is no such thing as a best recording of anything. There I`ve gone and said what I think. Sorry, carry on.

"Best in my experience" (given its limitations of scope and sensibility) I think is what's intended, Steven, - a legitimate enough notion. The inquiry implies an ongoing and open-ended search rather than the assumption of dogmatic exclusivity, - but also the rejection of any relativization of all judgements. There ARE better and worse performances (according to certain criteria that must be defined), and greater and lesser capacity among those who are doing the evaluating (again according to certain criteria). Everyone's opinion may be equally welcome, but to the extent the opinion offered is not truthful (even if honest) it is not of equal value or insight to that opinion which is more truthful. The meaning and objectivity of truth in the arts may be a contestable issue, but one that must be confronted on some at least elementary level to make discussions like that on this thread even minimally intelligible. Otherwise the exchanges become merely those of terminally competing fan clubs without any discrimination or real content.
I guess that's what everyone wants.

I'm interested in garnering insight into recordings of Mahler 5 here (a work I don't have any extensive experience with). But how can I give weight and meaning to the rec's offered without even minimal elaboration by those with apparently strong opinions?

MahlerSnob · Post by **MahlerSnob** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:25 pm

I've heard many good things about the Barshai recording, but I've yet to listen to it myself. Hopefully I'll find a library that has it soon (or convince the nec library too pick up a copy).

It's not really fair for me to nominate my favorite recording of Mahler 5, but if Peter Schenckman could nominate a recording he played on, I can nominate this one (no, I didn't play on it). My favorite Mahler 5 is actually not commericaly available. It is a live recording of the San Francisco Symphony with MTT from a subscription concert in 1998 and is phenomenal. The brass playing is the best I've ever heard on that piece and this recording had all of the SFS's old star brass players: Dave Krehbiel playing principal horn (his last year before retiring), Glenn Fischtal on principal trumpet (now stepped down to associate principal), Mark Lawrence on principal trombone, the "tuned chainsaw" bass trombone of John Engelkis, and Flloyd Cooley (who retired in 2002) on Tuba. The woodwinds and strings are equaly fine, and for a live performance there are surprisingly few mistakes - just enough to proove that the recording wasn't doctored. The CD was released to symphony donors about 4 years ago and I knew someone who got a copy somehow, so I got it too. Well worth stealing if you ever come accross a copy.

pizza · Post by **pizza** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:36 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote:
I'm interested in garnering insight into recordings of Mahler 5 here (a work I don't have any extensive experience with). But how can I give weight and meaning to the rec's offered without even minimal elaboration by those with apparently strong opinions?

By hearing them and forming your own opinion. Recommendations are merely to whet the appetite. It is still true as has often been said, that a picture is worth a thousand words, and as in the game of Bridge, a peek is worth a thousand finesses.

GanChan · Post by **GanChan** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:35 am

Another vote for Solti/CSO (I think that's what I have....)

zauberflote · Post by **zauberflote** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:34 am

I like the Bernstein the most right now. Solti is good too. So, for that matter is Karajan and Sinopoli.
I'm waiting for the release of the Michael Tilson Thomas recording with the SF0. I heard him perform the piece in concert recently and was amazed by his - and the orchestra's - technical mastery and the extraordinary emotional wallop they delivered. The Adagietto left me in tears and the rest was virtuoso playing of the highest order.
It was in the Bernstein VPO mold but with Thomas's eccentricities rather than Lennie's. It may have been I was just just bowled over by a live performance but I'm definitely going to grab this when it comes out as part of the SFO's ongoing Mahler cycle.

daycart · Post by **daycart** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:13 pm

I haven't listened to this piece much recently, but the last couple of times has been the Barbirolli/New Philharmonia. It is superb!

Gregory Kleyn · Post by **Gregory Kleyn** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:22 pm

daycart wrote:I haven't listened to this piece much recently, but the last couple of times has been the Barbirolli/New Philharmonia. It is superb!

It's grotesque.

pizza · Post by **pizza** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:44 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote:
daycart wrote:I haven't listened to this piece much recently, but the last couple of times has been the Barbirolli/New Philharmonia. It is superb!
It's grotesque.

Since you claim to have very little experience with Mahler's 5th symphony I suspect you're pulling his leg, as no serious critic of Mahler's works could be so lacking in discrimination as to make such a grotesque statement. The Barbirolli 5th is one of the all-time great Mahler recordings.

CharmNewton · Post by **CharmNewton** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:00 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote:
daycart wrote:I haven't listened to this piece much recently, but the last couple of times has been the Barbirolli/New Philharmonia. It is superb!
It's grotesque.

While I do not like this performance, I wouldn't use the term grotesque to describe it. Whether it's due to inadequate rehearsal or Barbirolli surprising the orchestra during the recording, there are patches of ragged ensemble, particularly in the first two movements (especially noticeable through headphones) and an overall herky-jerky feel about the way these movements unfold. The Finale is just too slow for me.

Of Barbirolli's commercial Mahler, this is the only recording I find a failure and I like his versions of the 6th and 9th.

John

pizza · Post by **pizza** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:53 am

CharmNewton wrote:
Gregory Kleyn wrote:
daycart wrote:I haven't listened to this piece much recently, but the last couple of times has been the Barbirolli/New Philharmonia. It is superb!
It's grotesque.
While I do not like this performance, I wouldn't use the term grotesque to describe it. Whether it's due to inadequate rehearsal or Barbirolli surprising the orchestra during the recording, there are patches of ragged ensemble, particularly in the first two movements (especially noticeable through headphones) and an overall herky-jerky feel about the way these movements unfold. The Finale is just too slow for me.

Of Barbirolli's commercial Mahler, this is the only recording I find a failure and I like his versions of the 6th and 9th.

John

I've always considered it one of the finest 5ths on record. There are patches of ragged ensemble in most of Barbirolli's Mahler -- (just listen to his 3rd if you want to hear it in spades) -- and but it's never bothered me to the point where it detracted from the overall effect of the performance. I agree that his 6th is a very fine performance, but aside from the last movement, his 9th leaves me cold. There's a performance that could have used some additional rehearsal time. The Berlin PO isn't playing at its usual high standard and the quality of the recording itself isn't up to snuff even for EMI.

MartinPh · Post by **MartinPh** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:24 am

Still quite happy with Bernstein/VPO, though, this being my least favourite Mahler, I have no very strong opinions on it. It was interesting to see how Gramophone made a 180 degree turn on its initial highly favourable opinion of this recording in their latest issue. Goes to show what a strange phenomenon musical reviewership is, and how much of the ´greatness´ of recordings basically boils down to matters of fashion and personal taste.

By the way, don't forget the Chailly/KCO on Decca, which is excellent in every way (but that, of course, is my personal opinion...).

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