When do we ever really talk about number one?

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jbuck919
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When do we ever really talk about number one?

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:50 pm

Just heard over XM the Sonata in a, Opus 23 number 4, and got refreshed the way none of yooz guys ever do on how a handful of composers stride over us infinitely beyond the way once there were giants in the biblical sense.

Opus 23, number 4, not a late work, certainly not a famous piece, not one I imagine that has been posted on here ever, but a drop-dead masterpiece exceeding the entire accomplishment of some composers whose names are still known (Franck comes to mind). A composition that almost makes me wish I do not listen, for it destroys me for the day at least. Just the figure that humorously hints at a fugue subject, when nobody remembers that Beethoven had a sense of humor...

No, not the work of an ordinary mortal.

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Post by slofstra » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:00 pm

I think you're confused. Opus 23 number 4 is in D, and it's a prelude not a sonata. Not Beethoven either.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:04 pm

Mistaken post--intended one follows.
Last edited by jbuck919 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:10 pm

slofstra wrote:I think you're confused. Opus 23 number 4 is in D, and it's a prelude not a sonata. Not Beethoven either.
What composer are you smoking? Obviously I meant Sonata for Piano and Violin Opus 23, serially allegedly number four. Exqueeze me.

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Post by diegobueno » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:06 pm

You ask "when does anyone ever talk about number one" and then immediately start talking about sonata no. 4. Where's the sense in that?

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:18 pm

diegobueno wrote:You ask "when does anyone ever talk about number one" and then immediately start talking about sonata no. 4. Where's the sense in that?
I meant composer number one, but what am I supposed to expect from someone who thinks like an American instead of a connoisseur that I should listen to every composer till kingdom come forming my own opinion, which would end up differing from his anyway?

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:52 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
diegobueno wrote:You ask "when does anyone ever talk about number one" and then immediately start talking about sonata no. 4. Where's the sense in that?
I meant composer number one, but what am I supposed to expect from someone who thinks like an American instead of a connoisseur that I should listen to every composer till kingdom come forming my own opinion, which would end up differing from his anyway?
Image

Post of the Day Award to ya, John.

I don't like him either, but then I didn't hire him. Image
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Post by diegobueno » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:31 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I meant composer number one, (half-wit insult removed)
Everybody knows Beethoven's the greatest. Why should we have to talk about it?

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Post by diegobueno » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:34 pm

And I'd much rather think like an American than like an idiot.

I'm proud to think like an American. I think even Corlyss can approve of those sentiments.

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Post by Chalkperson » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:41 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
diegobueno wrote:You ask "when does anyone ever talk about number one" and then immediately start talking about sonata no. 4. Where's the sense in that?
I meant composer number one, but what am I supposed to expect from someone who thinks like an American instead of a connoisseur that I should listen to every composer till kingdom come forming my own opinion, which would end up differing from his anyway?
I'm Confused, I thought Bach was Number One... :?

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Post by slofstra » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:47 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
slofstra wrote:I think you're confused. Opus 23 number 4 is in D, and it's a prelude not a sonata. Not Beethoven either.
What composer are you smoking? Obviously I meant Sonata for Piano and Violin Opus 23, serially allegedly number four. Exqueeze me.
ImageImage

I'm smoking Rach-sta man! Beethoven's not the only opus 23 no. 4 around you know.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:38 pm

Is it so difficult for posters on so literate a board to understand that once in a while one wants to enthuse about a masterpiece that we do not all listen to every day, or put something in its appropriate but all-too-often forgotten context? It is not as though I said "Wow, I just rediscovered the Ninth Symphony."

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by CharmNewton » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:04 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Is it so difficult for posters on so literate a board to understand that once in a while one wants to enthuse about a masterpiece that we do not all listen to every day, or put something in its appropriate but all-too-often forgotten context? It is not as though I said "Wow, I just rediscovered the Ninth Symphony."
But you could have put your post in the "What are you listening to today?" thread, where you could have identified the work (for the benefit of us Americans :) ) as Beethoven's Violin Sonata No. 4 in A minor, Op. 23. People are often rhapsodic on that thread, even about the Ninth Symphony.

John

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:07 pm

CharmNewton wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Is it so difficult for posters on so literate a board to understand that once in a while one wants to enthuse about a masterpiece that we do not all listen to every day, or put something in its appropriate but all-too-often forgotten context? It is not as though I said "Wow, I just rediscovered the Ninth Symphony."
But you could have put your post in the "What are you listening to today?" thread, where you could have identified the work (for the benefit of us Americans :) ) as Beethoven's Violin Sonata No. 4 in A minor, Op. 23. People are often rhapsodic on that thread, even about the Ninth Symphony.

John
I never post on that thread, nor have I ever visited it. I have no interest in people's momentary rhapsodizing and in case nobody noticed, was trying to make quite a different point.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Chalkperson » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:32 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I never post on that thread, nor have I ever visited it. I have no interest in people's momentary rhapsodizing.
I guess you are frightened you might actually learn something from one of us plebs... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by Ralph » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:08 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
diegobueno wrote:You ask "when does anyone ever talk about number one" and then immediately start talking about sonata no. 4. Where's the sense in that?
I meant composer number one, but what am I supposed to expect from someone who thinks like an American instead of a connoisseur that I should listen to every composer till kingdom come forming my own opinion, which would end up differing from his anyway?
I'm Confused, I thought Bach was Number One... :?
*****

Dittersdorf is Number 1!!!!!!! :lol:
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:09 pm

jbuck919 wrote: people's momentary rhapsodizing
I usually put in what I'm hearing on XM Radio.
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Post by pizza » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:47 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Is it so difficult for posters on so literate a board to understand that once in a while one wants to enthuse about a masterpiece that we do not all listen to every day. . . . .
jbuck919 wrote:I have no interest in people's momentary rhapsodizing . . . .


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:58 pm

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Actually, good catch, Peetz, much as I hate to admit it. :)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by diegobueno » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:19 pm

So, when do you really talk about number one?

Do you have anything of substance to say about Beethoven's A minor violin sonata op. 23, other than the obvious fact that it's great?

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:24 pm

diegobueno wrote:So, when do you really talk about number one?

Do you have anything of substance to say about Beethoven's A minor violin sonata op. 23, other than the obvious fact that it's great?
No. What were you expecting, a Schenkerian graphic analysis? You're still on your honeymoon, Mark. What are you doing bugging me? Go do something with Owlice.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by daycart » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:59 pm

LvB is great and that Sonata is a fine piece, but the Franck violin Sonata (for example) is vastly superior... 8)

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:10 pm

daycart wrote:LvB is great and that Sonata is a fine piece, but the Franck violin Sonata (for example) is vastly superior... 8)
No. Though I love the Franck and it is more commonly played over the air, this is simply not so. I can't prove it because no one can prove matters of educated taste, but my advice to you is: Keep listening.

Franck only ever wrote a few important works, one of which is that sonata. I am an organist and do not even like his organ works, which are pieces of resort because the organ repertory aside from Bach is so slim. Beethoven was a tireless lifetime master whose name does not belong in the same sentence as Franck's. Franck also wrote the horrid, beyond awful Panis Angelicus. If I wanted to make a statement about Freanck-dom, it would be to wonder how the same person ever wrote anything of interest at all when he was capable of such dreck and to my knoweldge never disowned it.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Werner » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:11 pm

Chacun à son gout!
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Post by diegobueno » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:16 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
diegobueno wrote:So, when do you really talk about number one?

Do you have anything of substance to say about Beethoven's A minor violin sonata op. 23, other than the obvious fact that it's great?
No. What were you expecting, a Schenkerian graphic analysis? You're still on your honeymoon, Mark. What are you doing bugging me? Go do something with Owlice.
Owlice is away this weekend. Starting tomorrow you can expect to have a freer hand enforcing your restrictions on unimportant music.

Your ideas about the Canon and the worth of music lying outside of it are very similar to Schenker's, so I wouldn't be surprised if you came up with something along the lines of a Schenker graph. But a little bit along the lines of "you what's really cool about this piece is the little change he makes in the 2nd theme during the recap that throws the music in a whole new light" was more of what I had in mind.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:23 pm

diegobueno wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
diegobueno wrote:So, when do you really talk about number one?

Do you have anything of substance to say about Beethoven's A minor violin sonata op. 23, other than the obvious fact that it's great?
No. What were you expecting, a Schenkerian graphic analysis? You're still on your honeymoon, Mark. What are you doing bugging me? Go do something with Owlice.
Owlice is away this weekend. Starting tomorrow you can expect to have a freer hand enforcing your restrictions on unimportant music.

Your ideas about the Canon and the worth of music lying outside of it are very similar to Schenker's, so I wouldn't be surprised if you came up with something along the lines of a Schenker graph. But a little bit along the lines of "you what's really cool about this piece is the little change he makes in the 2nd theme during the recap that throws the music in a whole new light" was more of what I had in mind.
That is a Toveyan comment (neglecting the fact that the sentence needed proofreading), not a Schenkerian one. Schenker was a piece of work who only allowed Chopin to fill the role of an honorary German. "The French are unoriginal in mind and body" was his comment, I believe, leading to great hilarity around the grad school dinner table about exactly what might be meant about "original in body." Fortunately, I've seen your pic on the other board, and you don't qualify (Mark is quite handsome, in fact).

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by diegobueno » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:37 pm

Tovey wouldn't say that Beethoven was "cool". I would.

You've got to be a theory geek to read Schenker. I've been very influenced by his ideas, but he's a pain to read even in English. His popularity in the US is due to the efforts of his disciples such as Schachter and Salzer. If American theorists had been able to read Schenker in the original he would have never caught on.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:00 pm

diegobueno wrote:Tovey wouldn't say that Beethoven was "cool". I would.
Indeed. Quite exactly my point.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by karlhenning » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:51 am

Ralph wrote: *****

Dittersdorf is Number 1!!!!!!! :lol:
Now that was a surprise.

:-)

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Re: When do we ever really talk about number one?

Post by BC » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:42 am

jbuck919 wrote: No, not the work of an ordinary mortal.
Not ordinary, granted, but certainly mortal. He died in 1827.

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Re: When do we ever really talk about number one?

Post by karlhenning » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:55 am

BC wrote:Not ordinary, granted, but certainly mortal. He died in 1827.
Not for the musical Miss Havishams among us, he didn't :-)
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Post by BC » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:14 am

'Once, I had been taken to see some ghastly waxwork... Once, I had been taken to one of our old marsh churches to see a skeleton in the ashes of a rich dress... Now, waxwork and skeleton seemed to have dark eyes that moved and looked at me'. :shock:

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Post by BC » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:20 am

Sorry if my post was too cryptic. It is Dickens's description of Miss Haversham. Karl's post introduced to my mind the wonderful image of the Musical Miss Havershams, a supernatural race a la Buffy or Dr Who, in appearance a cross between a skeleton and a waxwork dummy, with dark swivelling eyes, all wearing timepieces that were frozen in March 1827. The opening bars of the Fifth Symphony to be heard each time one appears.

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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:07 am

BC wrote:Sorry if my post was too cryptic. It is Dickens's description of Miss Haversham. Karl's post introduced to my mind the wonderful image of the Musical Miss Havershams, a supernatural race a la Buffy or Dr Who, in appearance a cross between a skeleton and a waxwork dummy, with dark swivelling eyes, all wearing timepieces that were frozen in March 1827. The opening bars of the Fifth Symphony to be heard each time one appears.
The opening bars of the Fifth Symphony are the newest theme song for Judge Judy. (You know, something like "It's Judge Judy, down on your knee.")

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by karlhenning » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:33 am

BC wrote:Sorry if my post was too cryptic. It is Dickens's description of Miss Haversham. Karl's post introduced to my mind the wonderful image of the Musical Miss Havershams, a supernatural race a la Buffy or Dr Who, in appearance a cross between a skeleton and a waxwork dummy, with dark swivelling eyes, all wearing timepieces that were frozen in March 1827. The opening bars of the Fifth Symphony to be heard each time one appears.
I follow you like a leopard, mon vieux :-)

Cheers,
~Karl
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Post by walboi » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:19 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Ralph wrote: *****

Dittersdorf is Number 1!!!!!!! :lol:
Now that was a surprise.

:-)

Cheers,
~Karl
Not to me it isn't! :lol:

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Post by karlhenning » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:23 pm

walboi wrote:Not to me it isn't! :lol:
Nor to anyone who knows Ralph, Harry!

Cheers,
~Karl
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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:26 pm

karlhenning wrote:
walboi wrote:Not to me it isn't! :lol:
Nor to anyone who knows Ralph, Harry!

Cheers,
~Karl
He talks about Dittersdorf all the time and actually likes him, but his real favorite composer is the guy who wrote the Diet Coke jingle.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by karlhenning » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:29 pm

jbuck919 wrote:. . . but his real favorite composer is the guy who wrote the Diet Coke jingle.
That wasn't Dittersdorf? . . .

Cheers,
~Karl
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