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rogch
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Post by rogch » Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:39 am

I have just bought my first Monteverdi DVDs, and they can be addictive i've been told.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:14 pm

rogch wrote:I have just bought my first Monteverdi DVDs, and they can be addictive i've been told.
In my opinion, and believe me I don't splash around in a pond gathering up odd opinions, but share them with many other musicians, Monteverdi is a unique case of someone who invented a style and was also its only and great master for something approaching 150 years. He is not EM, for he is clearly baroque, having been either its creator or creature depending on how you look at it. But he was, as I once saw in a reference I cannot remember, a "sun-drenched genius."

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by PJME » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:10 pm

ZIG ZAG Territoires issued recently : d'Amoureus cuer voel chanter
Image

Chansons by Adam de La Halle - a real "trouvère"!

"Les jardins de courtoisie" ( The gardens of courtesy) is a new ensemble ,directed by Anne Quentin.
de la Halle can be described as a poet. The texts are beautiful. But how does one sing them? "Les jardins de courtisie" brings them in various guises : from the simplest monophony to (still simple) polyphony, accompanied by one or few instruments ( both western and arabic).
I heard a few excerpts on the radio - fascinating : maybe the Middle ages did sound like that...!?
Peter

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slofstra
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Post by slofstra » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:31 pm

I've finally caught up on this thread, though the first few posts by Corlyss will probably provide enough reference material for several epochs of listening.

At this moment I've clicked on 'Early Music Rocks Out' from the Harmonia web site. I can just tell there will be a lot of early music that I won't want to bother with.
I just heard Arnold Schoenberg's orchestration of Bach's St. Anne's Fugue. Not bad, but I will never listen to it again.

The problem for me is going to be finding what I might like. I know I like the Tallis Scholars, and all that Byrd, Tallis, Purcell stuff.
Early instrumental music doesn't appeal to me (I'm going to contradict myself in a second *). Who are the great composers for the voice? Monteverdi is one, but which are the essential non-English pieces for voice in EM. I want the multi-layered, polyphonic stuff that's going to turn my soundproof room into a Gothic cathedral.

I also have a great CD of early Russian Orthodox music, including one piece by Ivan the Terrible (he doesn't sound terrible). Okay, there's Stravinsky on it as well. Any further leads here?

* Last night I cracked the wrap on Ton Koopman's Buxtehude Opera Omnia I. It glistens from the very first note. I did not think a harpsichord could sound this good! He plays two of them, depending on the piece, I think one is a Gucci and the other a Rolex. (Wow you can get samples here: http://www.tonkoopman.nl/sampleeng.htm
Look for the volume I selections.)

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:42 am

rogch wrote:I have just bought my first Monteverdi DVDs, and they can be addictive i've been told.
Depends on the opera and the production. If they are not operas, what's the point of a DVD?
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:18 pm

New source for things EM:

http://www.hoasm.org/Welcome.html

Have our NYC friends indulged?
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Post by slofstra » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:34 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:New source for things EM:

http://www.hoasm.org/Welcome.html

Have our NYC friends indulged?
hoasm.org? Anyone for anagrams?

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:14 am

slofstra wrote:hoasm.org? Anyone for anagrams?
Hey! I didn't pick 'em. I just reports 'em.
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rogch
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Post by rogch » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:26 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
rogch wrote:I have just bought my first Monteverdi DVDs, and they can be addictive i've been told.
Depends on the opera and the production. If they are not operas, what's the point of a DVD?
They are opera DVDs. I have bought some vespers and madrigals on CD. The DVDs are Harnoncourt's three operas on DG. They are produced around 1980 and early music performances have developed a lot since then. But i still found the operas very enjoyable, Harnoncourt full of highly individual ideas as usual.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:16 pm

rogch wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
rogch wrote:I have just bought my first Monteverdi DVDs, and they can be addictive i've been told.
Depends on the opera and the production. If they are not operas, what's the point of a DVD?
They are opera DVDs. I have bought some vespers and madrigals on CD. The DVDs are Harnoncourt's three operas on DG. They are produced around 1980 and early music performances have developed a lot since then. But i still found the operas very enjoyable, Harnoncourt full of highly individual ideas as usual.
Yes, those were terrific productions. Those were the ones with Harnoncourt and the band fitted out in 17th century orchesta costumes, right? With such an opportunity, I wish he had cast the Nerone at original pitch. It makes a big difference in terms of the sound of the duets. Most of these productions on DVD involve disheartening compromises: great visuals but dicey singing; great singing but totally f'd up productions; correct pitch but offputting cuts. What I really want is Alan Curtis' edition from the 80s on DVD. Reviews at the time implied it set the standard, even better than Harnoncourt's. I have it on bootleg tape and LP, but as far as I know it has never been on DVD.
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Post by TheFlayinDutchmn » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:18 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:Hey guys, count me in.. 've been breathing EM the past two months, I think it'll be my focus for the next year or so. I've been listening to harmonia episodes 'till the wee hours of the morning while rebuilding my engine, and I think I've concluded that I should be Catalonian. Btw, a lot of early Spanish music seems to be accompanied by a narration, it this some kind of style or genre I should be aware of? I can't seem to find anything about it.

Did someone mention something about a savall cd of caravaggio or something? Too perfect I say.

Cheers,
nick
Before this goes any further, Caravaggio was a great painter of the later renaissance/early baroque, a controversial character for a variety of reasons, but not a composer. You are evidently confusing him with the equally scandalous composer Gesualdo.
puulease, I know my Caravaggio. I'm’a order the CD today, though I do smell a little kitsch.

slofstra wrote: At this moment I've clicked on 'Early Music Rocks Out' from the Harmonia web site. I can just tell there will be a lot of early music that I won't want to bother with. .)
Don’t let that program be your ambassador to EM; it’s really not all that great, borderline obnoxious I think. There are a few good episodes, that one isn’t one of them. “especially espana” (sorry, I only do umlauts), and the Jordi Savall ones were really good, particularly the first savall,, it is music associated with Don Quixote, picking that CD up too. If someone can tell me what the first piece that’s played on the “especially espana” episode is, I would be ever grateful, it’s like an early Catalonian ave maria, it’s amazing.
slofstra wrote:I just heard Arnold Schoenberg's orchestration of Bach's St. Anne's Fugue. Not bad, but I will never listen to it again.
What exactly was the point in that piece anyway? It didn’t seem to add anything to the Bach piece to me, unless you hate organ just that much. Fretwork did a version too; it’s pretty cool I reckon, no substitute for the original though, they did the same for his passacaglia and fugue, its good too, it puts the piece in a different light, you end up appreciating the original more, I think.
slofstra wrote:The problem for me is going to be finding what I might like. I know I like the Tallis Scholars, and all that Byrd, Tallis, Purcell stuff.
Early instrumental music doesn't appeal to me (I'm going to contradict myself in a second *). Who are the great composers for the voice? Monteverdi is one, but which are the essential non-English pieces for voice in EM. I want the multi-layered, polyphonic stuff that's going to turn my soundproof room into a Gothic cathedral.
Sounds like Josquin Deprez.

Oh, I’ve concluded my stance on Sting vs. Kirkby.

Sting: a bit naïve, doesn’t seem to completely understand the music as well, but, and maybe this is mostly valid, post pop, his voice seems a lot more appropriate to the music, either that or my ears are just too young.

Kirkby: seems to be the authority on interpreting dowland type music, and deserves that respect, but has all the passion of a trigonometric identity, it’s just not enjoyable to listen to. Also, I think this is one case where a female voice really doesn’t work well.

Concussion: Kirby needs to teach sting how to sing, this kind of music at least. Both interpretations feel lacking.

All imho.

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for Rossi CD’s? I’ve been listening to his “Oratorio per la Settimana Santa”, it’s a lot of fun to listen to.

Cheers,
nick
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music.

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Post by TheFlayinDutchmn » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:52 pm

Ha!, found it:

http://www.emusic.com/album/Gothart-Opt ... 82221.html

It's a really good album, check it out. Catalan is way more cool than texas spanish...
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music.

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Post by Chalkperson » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:26 pm

TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:Ha!
So, I guess you think you can just disappear for a few months without writing home.... :wink:

Actually you just missed the Beethoven thread, lucky you...don't go near it...Chernobyl and all that...:twisted:

It was me talking about the Jordi S Caravaggio cd, buy Nino Nano while you're at it...time to reccomend some new EM cd's for you to buy methinks... :D

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:30 pm

It is easy enough to treat this aspect of music appreciation like elevator music, but I just listened to a Palestrina Mass I had never heard (Missa Nigra Sum), and I can barely type this. A huge masterpiece, a work to end the world with. Beyond that, I am still speechless, and in tears. Stay with it, folks; we are not barking up the wrong tree.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Chalkperson » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:18 pm

jbuck919 wrote:It is easy enough to treat this aspect of music appreciation like elevator music, but I just listened to a Palestrina Mass I had never heard (Missa Nigra Sum), and I can barely type this. A huge masterpiece, a work to end the world with. Beyond that, I am still speechless, and in tears. Stay with it, folks; we are not barking up the wrong tree.
It's a wonderful Mass, it's quite unknown I think, it was one of the first releases from the Tallis Scholars nearly twenty years ago, it ranks right up there with the exquisite Missa Papae Marcelli and my other favorite, Missa Ecce ego Johannes...if anybody wants to sample this music there is an excellent Tallis Schlolars Compilation of Palestrina's Masses available on Gimmell...that means you Henry... :wink:

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:48 am

TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:Oh, I’ve concluded my stance on Sting vs. Kirkby.

Sting: a bit naïve, doesn’t seem to completely understand the music as well, but, and maybe this is mostly valid, post pop, his voice seems a lot more appropriate to the music, either that or my ears are just too young.
Howard Mayer Brown long ago in one of the early EM issues (the journal, not the music) made a discography of what was available then. We're talking mid 70s. He noted then that the very first commercial recording of a Landini song was made by . . . . Judy Collins on her wonderfully haunting Wildflowers album, which consisted of arrangements by Joshua Rifkin (yes, that Joshua Rifkin). Quite astonishing when you think about it.
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In the mean time in Antwerp...

Post by PJME » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:42 pm

Laus polyphoniae festival in Antwerp
see : http://www.festivalvanvlaanderen.be/ind ... id=401&L=2

French polyphonic music from the Middle Ages untill 1600

The French musical history of the Middle Ages and renaissance reads like a virtually continuous chain of unique and crucial moments. With those moments, French musicians, composers or patrons managed to greatly influence and steer the history of Western European music. After previous editions dedicated to the (French) Flemish polyphony of the fifteenth and sixteenth century, Laus Polyphoniae 2007 focuses its gaze on the exceptionally wide spectrum of the earliest traces of French music until the period up to the year 1600.

A first section that appeals to our imagination is dedicated to the various periods where France dominated the European musical scene before the rise of Flemish polyphony around 1400. This section includes the first major bloom of music for numerous voices, with twelfth-century Aquitaine polyphony in the abbey of Saint-Martial in Limoges (Discantus), the unsurpassed thirteenth-century Ars Antiqua of the Parisian Notre-Dame school (Discantus, Il Nostro Domo del Sogno), the radically innovative fourteenth-century Ars Nova art by Guillaume de Machaut and his contemporaries active in Paris and Avignon (Diabolus in musica, Musica Nova, Ensemble Organum), including the subsequent followers in the so-called Ars subtilior (Tetraktys).

A second major section focuses on sixteenth-century French music. Ensemble Clément Janequin, this year’s ensemble ‘in residence’, takes the lead. Central is the blooming and extremely varied chanson art, which underwent a surprising high point with figures such as Claudin de Sermisy, Claude Lejeune, Clément Janequin, Pierre Certon and Pierre Sandrin. The zealous music publishers in Paris and Lyon, among other locations, played a major role in disseminating this music. At the same time, the works are featured of the Flemish and French polyphonic musicians (Prioris, Brumel), who played a determining role at the French court at the time of Louis XII, François I and Louis XIII (Huelgas Ensemble, Capilla flamenca, Ensemble Faenza, Egidius Kwartet).

Laus Polyphoniae 2007 will not only be a very high-quality, but also a very diverse festival. Apart from concerts, this year, the Festival van Vlaanderen-Antwerpen will be organising a number of fringe activities as well: master classes, an in-depth interview with the ensemble in residence, three accompanying lectures, concert introductions, round table discussions and the sixth edition of the International Young Artist’s Presentation, an international musical contest for new talent

Peter

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Post by Chalkperson » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:57 pm

TheFlayinDutchmn wrote: Oh, I’ve concluded my stance on Sting vs. Kirkby.

Sting: a bit naïve, doesn’t seem to completely understand the music as well, but, and maybe this is mostly valid, post pop, his voice seems a lot more appropriate to the music, either that or my ears are just too young.

Kirkby: seems to be the authority on interpreting dowland type music, and deserves that respect, but has all the passion of a trigonometric identity, it’s just not enjoyable to listen to. Also, I think this is one case where a female voice really doesn’t work well.

Concussion: Kirby needs to teach sting how to sing, this kind of music at least. Both interpretations feel lacking.

All imho.
I did warn you about String... :wink:

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Post by TheFlayinDutchmn » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:02 am

Chalkperson wrote:
TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:Ha!
So, I guess you think you can just disappear for a few months without writing home.... :wink:

Actually you just missed the Beethoven thread, lucky you...don't go near it...Chernobyl and all that...:twisted:

It was me talking about the Jordi S Caravaggio cd, buy Nino Nano while you're at it...time to reccomend some new EM cd's for you to buy methinks... :D
Damn right I can, hehe. God I’ll tell you, its heaven to get your car back after 4 months of it being in bits, anyways, back to great music. What’s nino nano?

link

Stuff I’ve just bought, went way over my Alessandrini allowance of one CD per month, o well. I got his art o fugue, doesn’t actually seem all that different, it’s good, on par with the martin in the fields one I’d say, cool keyboard work of course. I didn’t get the Caravaggio thing in the end, dunno, might get it next time, is it any good? I got savall’s oxidant-orient CD, it seems really good, it might not have much staying power, we’ll see. I’ve been getting really interested in Arabic music for some reason, got a couple of CDs there, anyone have any recommendations that way? I guess that’s beyond the scope of this forum.

I really really really liked the utopia thing, terribly good, this Johannes Ockeghem bloke warrants further investigation. What’s the theme of that CD anyway, it seems a bit mysterious to me somehow.

It took me a while, but I get the Venetian music thing now, I get a really good feeling about gabrieli, what else of his is mandatory?

By the way, I don’t know if Y’all know of this yet: http://www.medici-arts.tv/ some really good things there, click on august 3rd, at the bottom, Anoushka Shankar playing with bell, very good, I say.

I’m not entirely sure what to get next; I’ll probably just keep getting Alessandrini, Savall, Kirkby and fretwork CDs, unless Y’all have suggestions?

Cheers,
nick
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:24 pm

TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:I’ve been getting really interested in Arabic music for some reason, got a couple of CDs there, anyone have any recommendations that way?
Funny you should ask. Drop some more money on the group Ghazal. Get all 4 discs if you can. The marriage of Persian and Indian music is just out of this world. Also, if you have any change left, try to pick up the EMI discs of Studio der Fruhen Musik, particularly Martim Codax, and their Telefunken Carmina Burana. This group pioneered the use of Arabic influences in recreating medieval Spanish and Provencal music (there's legitimate scholarly support for it). Also anything by Atrium Musica Madrid under Gregorio Paniagua, e.g., Musique Arabo-Andalouse. They still carry on the Arab-influenced tradition.
I guess that’s beyond the scope of this forum.
Tsk tsk. You underestimate us. :wink:
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Post by slofstra » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:25 pm

Here's a challenge for anyone who wants to take it on.

I wish to purchase a sampler of early music, exactly 8 CDs. My biases would be towards choral music and away from lute solos.
I don't necessarily want the best recordings; I simply want to cover the field. The CDs must be top flight in recording technology but don't need to be SACD or DVD-A.
The compositions should be on the well travelled path, not too esoteric, but the performances can be small-label.
I expect there will be at least one Monteverdi CD.

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Post by Chalkperson » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:53 pm

slofstra wrote:Here's a challenge for anyone who wants to take it on.
If it's only eight then no Monteverdi from me, I will leave that to Corlyss...but let's make it a little more difficult by not duplicating music recommended by others...


A Feather on the Breath of God - Hildegard of Bingen - Emma Kirkby - Gothic Voices

The Cries of London - Theatre of Voices - Fretwork

Clemens non Papa - The Tallis Scholars

Buxtehude - Membra Jesu Nostri - The Netherlands Bach Society

The Eton Choirbook - The Sixteen

Sacred and Secular Music from Six Centuries - The Hilliard Ensemble

Voices of Light - Anonymous Four

William Byrd - Mass for 3+4+5 Voices - Sir David Willcocks - The Choir of Kings College
Last edited by Chalkperson on Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:16 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
slofstra wrote:Here's a challenge for anyone who wants to take it on.
If it's only eight then no Monteverdi from me, I will leave that to Corlyss...but let's make it a little more difficult by not duplicating music recommended by others...


A Feather on the Breath of God - Hildegard of Bingen - Emma Kirkby - Gothic Voices

The Cries of London - Theatre of Voices - Fretwork

Clemens non Papa - The Tallis Scholars

Buxtehude - Membra Jesu Nostri - The Netherlands Bach Society

The Eton Choirbook - The Sixteen

Sacred and Secular Music from Six Centuries - The Hilliard Ensemble

Voices of Light - Anonymous Four

Mass for 3+4+5 Voices - Sir David Willcocks - The Choir of Kings College
Dear Chalkie, you are not making anything difficult at all. Three of your choices have such obscure titles that it is impossible to tell the difference between the works being performed and the performing forces. Jacob Clemens (facetiously called Clemens non Papa in order not to be confused with the pope) is a very great Renaissance composer whose name belongs with his major Flemish contemporaries. Buxtehude is not an EM composer but a minor one of the Baroque. The Masses for various voices can mean a number of things but probably refer to the great Masses of William Byrd.

See how easy that was?

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Chalkperson » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:51 pm

jbuck919 wrote: Dear Chalkie, you are not making anything difficult at all. Three of your choices have such obscure titles that it is impossible to tell the difference between the works being performed and the performing forces.

See how easy that was?
Don't take all the fun out of this...it's for Henry and he knows how to use Google to find out what this all is...but I guess I have to justify my choices...if I have to justify it to you alone then I will address only my obscure choices...

The Cries of London is exactly that, people shouting words to each other...

I know exactly who Clemens Non Papa is, but, I wanted to leave people like Ockegheim, Dufay, Machaut, Isaac, Palestrina etc etc etc to other members...

The Eton Choirbook is four cd's, just in case any of my choices were deemed out of court...you of all people should know who is in these books...

Sacred and Secular music from Six Centuries is just that, it's one of the very first discs from the Hilliard Ensemble...

Voices of Light is the Soundtrack for the B+W film, Le Passion de Jeanne d"Arc by Carl Theodor Dreyer...I certainly hope you have heard of that...

see how easy that was...and I was also leaving the field open to others to fill out the gaps, and if you Google my choices you will see just how large a list these eight discs actually encompass... if Buxtehude is a few years late it does not bother me, I think Henry will enjoy it anyhow, but, how come you never gave us any of your recommendations...

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:07 am

slofstra wrote:Here's a challenge for anyone who wants to take it on.

I wish to purchase a sampler of early music, exactly 8 CDs. My biases would be towards choral music and away from lute solos.
Oh, Henry! Only 8? I lay me doon and dee with such a limitation. Please release me . . .
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:09 am

Chalkie! Where's the Monteverdi? Tucked in the 6 centuries of Hilliard Ensemble?
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Post by Chalkperson » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:38 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:Chalkie! Where's the Monteverdi? Tucked in the 6 centuries of Hilliard Ensemble?
I deliberately left him to you, you are a much bigger fan of his than I, your choices are more valid than mine i feel, and yes only eight is tough...and based on John's dismissal of the Buxtehude recording, I will replace that with any of the three recordings by Trio Medieval on ECM...my point about not overlapping Composers or works was to get the most variety for Henry, so here are the contents of the Hilliard disc...

Salve regina HERMANNUS CONTRACTUS (1013–1054)
Planctus ante nescia GODEFROY DE ST VICTOIRE (fl1170–90)
Quant je sui mis GUILLAUME DE MACHAUT (c1300–1377)
Vergene bella GUILLAUME DUFAY (c1400–1474)
Gloria ad modem tubae GUILLAUME DUFAY (c1400–1474)
Most clear of colour ROBERT FAYRFAX (1464–1521)
Ne irascaris Domine / Civitas sancti tui WILLIAM BYRD (1543–1623)
Dezí, flor rresplandeçiente ANONYMOUS
Nuevas, nuevas – ¡Por tu fe! ANONYMOUS
Sancta mater FRANCISCO DE PEñALOSA (c1470–1528)
El jubilate MATTEO FLECHA (1481–1553)
Tota pulcra es HEINRICH ISAAC (c1450-1517)
Bon jour mon coeur CLAUDE GOUDIMEL (c1514–1572)
Le chant des oiseaulx CLÉMENT JANEQUIN (c1485–1558)

and here the Eton Choirbook...

The Eton Choirbook (Eton College MS. 178) (also known as the Eton Manuscript) is a richly illuminated 15th century manuscript collection of English sacred music. It was one of very few music collections to survive the Dissolution of the Monasteries by Henry VIII, and originally contained music by 24 different composers; however, many of the pieces are damaged or incomplete. It is one of only three manuscript sources in all of England for music in Latin from the late 15th century (the others are the Lambeth Choirbook and the Caius Choirbook). The Choirbook was compiled between approximately 1490 and 1502, presumably for use at Eton College, and was probably bound in the late 16th century. 126 pages remain of the original 224, including the index. In the original, there were a total of 93 separate compositions; however only 64 remain either complete or in part. Some of the 24 composers are known only because of their inclusion in the Eton Choirbook. John Browne has the most compositions of all the composers included in the book, followed by Richard Davy and Walter Lambe Stylistically, the music contained in the Eton Choirbook shows three phases in the development of early Renaissance polyphony in England. The first phase is represented by the music of Richard Hygons, William Horwood and Gilbert Banester. Most of the music of this early phase is polyphonic but non-imitative, with contrast achieved by alternation of full five-voice texture with sections sung by fewer voices. The second phase, which includes music by John Browne, Richard Davy and Walter Lambe, uses imitation, cantus firmus techniques, and frequent cross-relations (a feature which was to become a distinctive sound in early Tudor polyphony). The final phase represented in the choirbook includes music by William Cornysh and Robert Fayrfax, and most of the music in this phase was written around 1500. Points of imitation are frequent, cantus firmus techniques disappear, and in general the sound of the music is more akin to that being composed concurrently on the Continent than is the case for the earlier music in the collection.
All of the compositions in the book are sacred vocal music in Latin. There are 9 settings of the Magnificat, 54 motets, and one setting of the Passion.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:22 pm

Ne irascaris Domine . "Lord, may you not be angry."

This is not intended as a reproach aganst Chalkie, but that selection is all over the place. There is another demarcation point in EM that is of more importance to me than Corlyss, and that is the point (a little before 1500) where we find mature polyphony, the point of the more or less modern cadence if you will, and its first exponent was probably Ockeghem, its first undoubted master Josquin (who actually wrote a lament on the death of his master Ockeghem). It is IMO as much a mistake to put Machaut in the same category as William Byrd as it would be to put Mozart in the same category as Debussy (and I realize the imperfection of the analogy). None of which should be taken as meaning that those who have the taste should not enjoy Machaut, even though he strikes me as not having a mature style.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Chalkperson » Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:23 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Ne irascaris Domine . "Lord, may you not be angry."

This is not intended as a reproach aganst Chalkie, but that selection is all over the place.
Of course, it's 600 years all over the place...but, you have not heard this CD and I have enjoyed it many times, it gives a good list of composers to follow up on, the list is for Henry, not you, and I am giving examples of music I like, sure, I could have listed Guesaldo, Tallis, Josquin, Ockegheim, Palestrina, Victoria and all the other obvious ones, and, I thought carefully about my choices, I left out CD's of Wiliam Cornyish, John Sheppard and John Taverner only because of the restriction to eight suggestions...I can never understand why you always dismiss the music other posters like because you deem the composers to be inferior...so again I call upon you to give us your list...

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Post by slofstra » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:23 pm

That's what I want - all over the place. This is to be a sampler. After I purchase and listen to those, I will pursue a couple of directions further.

I really would like some other-worldly stuff; Gothic spires lifting up to heaven kind of thing.

Corlyss, how about just the first 8 items off your list. That way the list can be as long as you would like and I'm saving you typing. Alernatively, which of chalkie's selections would you NOT get as a primer. I didn't really intend to get 8 x N selections where N is the number of individuals contributing. N = 1, so far.

Anoushka Shankar

Funny you should mention that, F.D. I was just watching 'Concert for George' again last night. 'Arpan' is an incredible piece of music, to my naive ears anyway. Perhaps we need an Indian music thread sometime. She's also the most beautiful looking conductor I've ever witnessed. (I suppose she's a half-sister to Norah Jones; I'm not a fan of the latter but respect what she's doing; I dislike smooth jazz voices).

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Post by TheFlayinDutchmn » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:44 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:I’ve been getting really interested in Arabic music for some reason, got a couple of CDs there, anyone have any recommendations that way?
Funny you should ask. Drop some more money on the group Ghazal. Get all 4 discs if you can. The marriage of Persian and Indian music is just out of this world. Also, if you have any change left, try to pick up the EMI discs of Studio der Fruhen Musik, particularly Martim Codax, and their Telefunken Carmina Burana. This group pioneered the use of Arabic influences in recreating medieval Spanish and Provencal music (there's legitimate scholarly support for it). Also anything by Atrium Musica Madrid under Gregorio Paniagua, e.g., Musique Arabo-Andalouse. They still carry on the Arab-influenced tradition.
I guess that’s beyond the scope of this forum.
Tsk tsk. You underestimate us. :wink:
Oo, well there we go again, sounds excellent, although I am finding that generally, the older, or less sort of academic-western the music is, the easier it tends to wear; I can l listen to any piece of Bach almost indefinitely, and not got too bored with it, I can’t say the same for some of this more folksy Spanish music, or a lot of Indian music etc., not sure exactly what that means.

Also, I’m glad you mentioned about scholarly support for things, I’m a bit worried that some of this stuff is getting a bit kitschy, or at least unauthentic, all though, should that really matter?
I didn't really intend to get 8 x N selections where N is the number of individuals contributing. N = 1, so far.
Can N be a complex number? That way you can take its normal, and you’ll probably end up with more music, what with triangle inequalities and all. 1+i, I say. That’d give you 11.3 CD’s! Much better.
Anoushka Shankar

Funny you should mention that, F.D. I was just watching 'Concert for George' again last night. 'Arpan' is an incredible piece of music, to my naive ears anyway. Perhaps we need an Indian music thread sometime. She's also the most beautiful looking conductor I've ever witnessed. (I suppose she's a half-sister to Norah Jones; I'm not a fan of the latter but respect what she's doing; I dislike smooth jazz voices).
Yes, an Indian music thread would be great, it seems to be kind of tough to find good information, and good recordings, I can’t seem to find much beyond what the shankars have done, I’m assuming what they do isn’t too terribly adapted for western tastes at least…, and Ravi seems to carry a stigma of being a 60’s fad, I think few things can kill your legitimacy with people like being a Beatles curiosity. I’m not sure where I heard it, it makes a lot of sense; you don’t progress by cheapening your music, or making it popular, you do so by making it more art full, even if that does sound snobby. On another note, yes, she does make more appealing album covers than does Karajan.

cheers,
nick
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music.

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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:01 am

TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:
Can N be a complex number? That way you can take its normal, and you’ll probably end up with more music, what with triangle inequalities and all. 1+i, I say. That’d give you 11.3 CD’s! Much better.
Trust me, folks, aside from the fact that 1+i is a complex number, this is gibberish. (i is the imaginary--that is the technical term--square root of -1).

Nobody ever claimed that an interest in anything written before the Baroque is not somewhat specialized, even considering that all interest in classical music is specialized, and I don't claim, though others might, that the heights of music did not occur during the tonal golden age. All that means, as far as I'm concerned, is that music is unique among the arts in having had three golden ages to begin with, plus a couple of silver ones.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:50 pm

TheFlayinDutchmn wrote:Also, I’m glad you mentioned about scholarly support for things, I’m a bit worried that some of this stuff is getting a bit kitschy, or at least unauthentic, all though, should that really matter?
Not sure what you mean by "kitch" in the context of Early Music. Not sure how much authenticity you are looking for either. Can you gimme some idea?
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Post by Chalkperson » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:35 pm

As I seem to be getting no help from other Members on Henry's question, I will take advantage and suggest another eight selections, from other Early Areas/Eras...

A Feather on the Breath of God was generally acknowledged as being part of the very beginning of early Music's recent (25 years) revival, available in a box with 'Feather' are two discs from Christopher Page's Gothic Voices...they made at least twenty recordings before moving on to Purcell, the ones in the box are...

The Service of Venus and Mars
A Song for Francesca


Then there is Lute Music, a good single disc would be...

Pau O'Dette's Dolissimno and Amoroso

A more serious set of discs would be...

The Complete works of John Dowland by either Paul O'Dette or Jacob Lindberg...

For Jordi Savaal...who never makes a bad disc, why not try...

Carlos V
El Cant de La Sibila


for more Paul Hillier...

Fragments - Theatre of Voices
Terry Riley - In C for Voices
Guesaldo - Tennebrae Responsories - The Hilliard Ensemble


The Tallis Scholars

Palestrina - Masses
William Cornysh
John Sheppard - Medea Vita
Josquin DesPres



Anonymous Four - Hildegard of Bingen

11,000 Virgins
The Origin of Fire


Trio Medieval

Soir Dit-Elle
Stella Maris
Words of the Angel


A Good Sampler...

John Dowland on DG...

Very interesting...

Medieval Gardens by the Orlando Consort
Music For Compline - Stile Antico
Caccini - Nuove Musiche - Zomer - Jacobs


OK that's it for me, for now... :D

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:27 am

Excellent choices, Chalkie. I wouldn't quarrel with a single one.
Chalkperson wrote:A Feather on the Breath of God was generally acknowledged as being part of the very beginning of early Music's recent (25 years) revival,
Hardly. See, Reprise: the Extraordinary Revival of Early Music, by Joel Cohen and Herb Snitzer; and The Early Music Revival by Harry Haskel. Technically speaking, the invention of opera c. 1580 was an attempt to revive the early music of Greek drama presentations, so one might say that people have been attempting to recreate early music for centuries. Felix Mendelssohn thought himself engaged in archeology when he conducted the first performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion in over 75 years.The modern movement began with Arnold Dolmetsch and his family in the 1880s. It's true that Hildegard made a big splash c. 1980 when two major EM groups, The Gothic Voices and Sequentia, issued the first discs in planned multi-disc series of her music. But that weren't the start by any stretch.
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Post by Chalkperson » Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:54 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:Excellent choices, Chalkie. I wouldn't quarrel with a single one.
Chalkperson wrote:A Feather on the Breath of God was generally acknowledged as being part of the very beginning of early Music's recent (25 years) revival,
Hardly. See, Reprise: the Extraordinary Revival of Early Music, by Joel Cohen and Herb Snitzer; and The Early Music Revival by Harry Haskel. Technically speaking, the invention of opera c. 1580 was an attempt to revive the early music of Greek drama presentations, so one might say that people have been attempting to recreate early music for centuries. Felix Mendelssohn thought himself engaged in archeology when he conducted the first performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion in over 75 years.The modern movement began with Arnold Dolmetsch and his family in the 1880s. It's true that Hildegard made a big splash c. 1980 when two major EM groups, The Gothic Voices and Sequentia, issued the first discs in planned multi-disc series of her music. But that weren't the start by any stretch.
I was referring to Recorded Music...and I was wrong about the date, it was 35 years ago, not 25..I must be getting old...:wink:
Excellent choices, Chalkie. I wouldn't quarrel with a single one.
Thanks, I made this list with you in mind, glad you like the choices...

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:11 pm

Chalkperson wrote:I was referring to Recorded Music...and I was wrong about the date, it was 35 years ago
For just recorded music, even that is too recent. Since Boulanger was instrumental in the revival of Monteverdi, and her recording dates from 1936, it has to go back at least that far. 8) It's still in the catalogue. I recommend it highly.
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Post by RebLem » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:58 pm

Right now--CD 1 of the 4 CD Brilliant box of Telemann Tafelmusik.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:15 am

RebLem wrote:Right now--CD 1 of the 4 CD Brilliant box of Telemann Tafelmusik.
How is it?
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Post by PJME » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:00 am

Only a few months after De Fragilitate – Piae Cantiones
Hymns from medieval Finland , here's a new Klara/Etcetera CD :

Lambert De Sayve - Missa Dominus Regnavit - Motetten
Oltremontano; Capilla Flamenca; Wim Becu
KTC 4022

Image

We do not know much about Lambert De Sayve (pronounce "De Saive" / "ai" as in "air").
Lambert De Sayve was born near Liège ( 1548/9‐1614 - in a village called Saive) and became a pupil of Phillipus De Monte. In 1562 he traveled to Vienna and worked at the Imperial Chapel.
Later, he became teacher at the abbey in Melk .He had a succesful career and eventually returned to Vienna .
The Sacrae Symphoniae date from 1612 and were admired by Praetorius.
The Missa Dominus Regnavit is a grand and colourful work for 16 voices. It can be seen as a forerunner of Biber's polychoral masses.

The CD isn't available yet.But the fragments I heard on the radio were very impressive.
.

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Post by miranda » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:40 pm

Hi everyone. Some really wonderful albums are mentioned in this thread...huzzah!

I had the great good fortune of seeing Hesperion XXI live at Ravinia earlier this year, and, needless to say, they did not disappoint. Seeing and hearing Montserrat Figueras sing was an unforgettable experience.

Hope you all are well....
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:22 pm

miranda wrote:Hi everyone. Some really wonderful albums are mentioned in this thread...huzzah!

I had the great good fortune of seeing Hesperion XXI live at Ravinia earlier this year, and, needless to say, they did not disappoint. Seeing and hearing Montserrat Figueras sing was an unforgettable experience.

Hope you all are well....
Welcome back! Hope you are here to stay.
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Post by slofstra » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:55 pm

A note on my progress with EM and baroque.

I have been working through some baroque and EM that on my 'ipod' courtesy an unnamed donor. And I acquired a few of the CDs recommended above - but have not listened to them yet.

The lute music of John Dowland is quite impressive. Question - how close is a lute to a classical guitar? In particular, can you just take the sheet music (tablature) for lute and play on the guitar, or do you need to look for a transcription?

Then an interminable series of Boccherini quintets. That old saw about Vivaldi and his one composition - it was actually Boccherini who was meant. But it's good - I don't mean that it's not. My question, how many quintets do you need before you forget what the first one sounded like when you get to the last one. Because you don't need any more quintets than that.

One problem with the ipod. No jewel case to refer to so I will continue this in another post later, as some of the names are new to me.

A real boon to listening is that I have waived my cataloguing rule in for my EM and baroque CDs. (I have a rule that I don't listen to a CD until I've catalogued it. See Corner Pub thread on 'perfectionism'. Those aria CDs can be killers to catalogue - I try to avoid them. But Rita Streich is so fine.) I'll still catalogue the CD title and performer.

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Post by Chalkperson » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:42 pm

slofstra wrote: One problem with the ipod. No jewel case to refer to so I will continue this in another post later, as some of the names are new to me.
That is what Google is for...type in the name and the track and you get to find out where it came from, and hopefully will help you find new things for your musical journeys, I wonder where you got that music from, sounds like whoever it is has pretty good taste... :wink:

PS Glad you like Dowland...

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Post by slofstra » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:51 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
slofstra wrote: One problem with the ipod. No jewel case to refer to so I will continue this in another post later, as some of the names are new to me.
That is what Google is for...type in the name and the track and you get to find out where it came from, and hopefully will help you find new things for your musical journeys, I wonder where you got that music from, sounds like whoever it is has pretty good taste... :wink:

PS Glad you like Dowland...
That's a good tip. However, the main issue is that the ipod is sitting next to the boombox across the room from the couch. As opposed to a CD, where I have the jewel case with me. No solution for that one!

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Post by Chalkperson » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:26 pm

slofstra wrote:[ However, the main issue is that the ipod is sitting next to the boombox across the room from the couch. As opposed to a CD, where I have the jewel case with me. No solution for that one!
Sure There is, a Squeezebox or Transporter... :wink:

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Post by PJME » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:30 pm

This Klara/Etcetera disc (I mentioned earlier) is getting very good reviews - read this article at Musicweb - the French magazine Diapason (cfr. The Gramophone etc) gave it a Diapason d'Or.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... TC4023.htm

De Fragilitate: Piae Cantiones (16th Century)
Hymns from Mediaeval Finland


Zefiro Torna (Cécile Kempenaers (voice); Els Van Laethem (voice); Timo Väänän (voice, kannel - a Finnish traditional plucked string instrument of the zither family); Jowan Merckx (recorder, bagpipes, bells); Liam Fenelly (fiddle, viola da gamba); Frank Van Eycken (percussion); Jurgen de bruyn (lute, voice, artistic leader))
Antwerp Cathedral Choir/Sebastiaan van Steenberge
rec. 1-3 June, 2007 Akademiezaal Sint-Truiden, Belgium. DDD
ETCETERA KTC 4023 [58:00]


We live at a time when we should be very thankful for the vast wealth of ‘early’ music now available to us. Barely a generation ago – certainly two – it would have been unlikely that a recording of a substantial portion of the corpus of mediaeval sacred music from Finland would have been thought likely to succeed. It is equally unlikely that anyone would then have assembled the resources and channelled the energy into producing and disseminating such.


Here, though, is a sumptuous and inspiring collection – representative and selective, rather than aggressively comprehensive – of some nearly two dozen pieces ranging in length from one and a half to four and three quarter minutes. The Piae Cantiones ecclesiasticae et scholasticae veterum episcoporum (‘pious songs for church and school by the old bishops’) was published in Turku, Finland, in 1582. It actually comprises music from a variety of places and times, though it’s safe to make two assumptions: that about half the 75 or so songs which it contains are Finnish… they are not to be found elsewhere, and are stylistically consistent. Secondly, we can determine very quickly not only that the songs are nearly all considerably older than the late sixteenth century, but also that some surely date back as much as 500 years. That many of the titles should be in Latin in Protestant Finland may be explained by the fact that the publication was sponsored by the Catholic sympathiser, King Johan III of Sweden, at that time ruler of Finland.


Evidence that the Piae Cantiones were an attempt to preserve a perhaps threatened local tradition of music hitherto transmitted only (or largely) orally is in the two republications within a few years - one in Finnish in 1616, a second again in Latin nine years after that; and many more before long. Significantly the Piae Cantiones have had a strong influence on contemporary Finnish music… Sibelius’ Carminalia as well as modern ‘folk’ song and other modern arrangements of them, for example.


The majority of these songs are related to Christmas – hence, presumably – the preponderance (almost a third) in the first batch (De Nativitate tr.s1-8) here. Others concern high points of the liturgical year (e.g. Easter – De Passione tr.s9-11), school life (tr.s15-18) and the woes of the human condition (tr.s12-14) as well as the rebirth of nature in spring (tr.s19-22). It would not be an exaggeration to suggest that anyone unfamiliar with Finnish music before the Early Modern period (or for that matter any era of that nation’s music) would do best to buy this CD, which is admittedly a little under-generous at less than an hour in length.


The performances are first class: Zefiro Torna performs on period instruments (from the 15th and 16th centuries), including the kannel (Estonian) or kantele (Finnish), a zither, or dulcimer. The particular combinations which we hear throughout the CD lend the music a definite ‘antique’, decidedly ‘folk’, aura. This does not detract from the clarity of the singing, though, by the four specialists in the group and by the half dozen young singers from the Antwerp Cathedral Choir. The Flemish Zefiro Torna (which was founded in 1996) draws players who first established themselves in such venerable ensembles as the Huelgas Ensemble, Collegium Vocale Ghent and Capilla Flamenca. The production and implied advocacy of Finnish music with such strong nationalist flavours by Flemish musicians is perhaps unexpected – but nevertheless to be applauded.


One’s overall impression is of quiet, self-confident, highly focused music with the harmonics, temporal variation and melodic richness of mediaeval song from other northern European traditions. The original Carmina Burana may come to mind. There is a certain sparseness, tempered by a springy jollity, particularly in the festive pieces. It’s the kantele that confers the greatest distinction on the music. It’s not an overly ‘twangy’ instrument, and serves as an effective accompanying instrument for the singers.


Other percussive instruments are not usually overdone. They too compliment and support the rather delicate tracing of what is a very tuneful collection of pieces. Although their use (and the fade out) in O Scholares discite does jar just a little and there is some modern-sounding syncopation in Sum in aliena provincia. You may not like the bells in In vernali tempore; they sound just a little false, almost intrusive. The slight breathiness of the recorder and its ever so marginal over-closeness in recording contribute in a way to a sense that this is spontaneous and very genuine music making; most definitely not purely demonstrative or reluctantly catalogued so as to be merely a set of examples. It’s worth listening to and getting to know in its own right.


Some of the songs (Personent hodie and Tempus adest floridum, for instance) will be recognized immediately. These incarnations delight for their tinges of freshness. Although Piae Cantiones is Finland’s only collection of its type, it does reflect wider European traditions; yet Zefiro Torna and the others have successfully emphasised the uniquely Finnish properties of the music… crystalline transparency and thin tonalities; a clarity of timbre that is still evident in modern Baltic unaccompanied choral works; a momentum which rarely stops for effect, but rather is created without fuss in the bracingly brittle blend of melody and words. Although one senses the scholastic origins of this combination, the music is never perfunctory or dry. Rather, its liveliness is internal and does not rely on excessive arranging. It really is Sibelius’ pure spring water again.


The recording is a good one and the booklet nicely illustrated with the text to all the songs in Latin/Finnish and English. Piae Cantiones would make a slightly different Christmas present as well as meet nicely the needs of anyone curious to experience Finnish music from the 500 year period in question.


A lovely disc! Do give it a try!

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:43 pm

slofstra wrote:The lute music of John Dowland is quite impressive. Question - how close is a lute to a classical guitar? In particular, can you just take the sheet music (tablature) for lute and play on the guitar, or do you need to look for a transcription?
Yes, the music can be played on either. The two are related. The lute has a gourd shaped soundbox and is strung with gut strings and is Arab in origin. In fact, most of the instruments in the modern orchestra are Arab in origin, but that's a whole nother story. The sound is softer-edged than a guitar. You want to be looking into some specific composers, like Bach, Weiss, de Visee, and albums entitled "music for lute" and be sure that they are played on a lute and not a guitar, lutenists like Paul O'Dette, Anthony Bailes, James Tyler, Ronn McFarlane, Joel Cohen, Thomas Binkley, Konrad Junghänel.
My question, how many quintets do you need before you forget what the first one sounded like when you get to the last one. Because you don't need any more quintets than that.
I don't think remembering is the idea. I think the proper question is, "How many do you enjoy?" A lot of this sort of 18th Century small ensemble music was composed as background music for some court somewhere, not to be examined closely in a concert setting.
(I have a rule that I don't listen to a CD until I've catalogued it. See Corner Pub thread on 'perfectionism'. Those aria CDs can be killers to catalogue - I try to avoid them. But Rita Streich is so fine.) I'll still catalogue the CD title and performer.
Ooooooo. OCD rigidity. I recognize the value of knowing what you have, and certainly it is crucial if you have collection that numbers in the hundreds of thousands of items like Lance does, but I'd never buy anything if paperwork were a prerequisite to listening.
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Post by Chalkperson » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:35 pm

corlyss wrote:
(I have a rule that I don't listen to a CD until I've catalogued it. See Corner Pub thread on 'perfectionism'. Those aria CDs can be killers to catalogue - I try to avoid them. But Rita Streich is so fine.) I'll still catalogue the CD title and performer.
Ooooooo. OCD rigidity. I recognize the value of knowing what you have, and certainly it is crucial if you have collection that numbers in the hundreds of thousands of items like Lance does, but I'd never buy anything if paperwork were a prerequisite to listening.
I just do it all in i-Tunes, I have something like 160,000 'songs' catalogued that way, or 500 days worth of music...... :wink:

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:51 pm

Chalkperson wrote:I just do it all in i-Tunes, I have something like 160,000 'songs' catalogued that way, or 500 days worth of music...... :wink:
With extraordinary diligence by this impatient Aries, I have gotten up to 1740 tracks on 117 albums and it comes to only 5.9 gigs. My question is this, what happens if I ever get close to the 50 gig remaining on my computer's hd? How do I manage that? Off-load the entire iTunes to a backup drive?
Corlyss
Contessa d'EM, a carbon-based life form

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