Kertesz or Kubelik for Dvorak's symphonies 1-9

knotslip · Post by **knotslip** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:33 pm

Help me decide which set of Dvorak Symphonies to purchase. (Hope I'm doing this poll thing correctly)

Kubelik's : Dvorak's Symphonies 1-9 on DG label
OR
Kertesz's : Dvorak's Symphonies 1-9 on Decca label

Please explain why if you can, i.e. sonic quality, better performance, mood, etc.

Thanks for your recommendations and comments.

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:36 pm

Kertesz, for sentimental reasons. His was the first I owned.

Post by **Lance** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:59 pm

I voted for Kubelik but I have both and love them both dearly and equally. Kertesz, on Decca/London was the first set I ever owned, on both LP and CD, but Kubelik being of Czech ancestry himself, and long-steeped in Dvorak's music heard there during his lifetime, might be a bit closer to the spirit of the music, hence the reason he got my vote. Kertész was Hungarian. Both were equally noted and praised for their performances of Dvorak's music. Both sets are exceedingly well recorded. You cannot go wrong either way. Avid collectors, if they can afford it (or even if they can't afford it), will have them both.

On the other hand, given the choice of another conductor in any of Dvorak's music (he didn't record all of Dvorak's symphonies), it would Vaclav Talich and the Czech Philharmonic. All his recordings are being reissued by Supraphon of the Czech Republic in a special, mid-priced edition. They are all in mono sound. Naxos has even issued two other recordings of two symphonies, Nos. 7 and 8, Opp. 70 and 88 respectively, recorded in 1938 and 1935 in London for HMV. These are considered top-drawer interpretations despite sonic considerations, which have been vastly improved under the hands of sound restoration engineer Mark Obert-Thorn, among the most experienced in the restoration business. I want to be moved by the music I hear and Talich never fails. But then neither do Kertész and Kubelik.

Donaldopato · Post by **Donaldopato** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:38 pm

I have long owned and admired the Kertesz so, as the Contessa, for sentimental reasons I give it my vote. That being said, many critics also agree with me that it is superbly played and holding up well sonically for its age.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:46 pm

Donaldopato wrote:I have long owned and admired the Kertesz so.......many critics also agree with me that it is superbly played and holding up well sonically for its age.

indeed, it is superb both for performance and sonics..
I generally don't recommend complete symphony sets as a choice for recordings, usually you can do better by picking and choosing..

Kertesz/LSO Dvorak is an exception however, heartily recommended. Bernstein/NYPO Sibelius is another that I recommend strongly.

RebLem · Post by **RebLem** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:00 am

I have both, and I have a strong preference for the Kubelik. It should be supplemented with the Szell set of 7, 8, & 9, the Zdenek Macal/LPO 9th, and the Ancerl 6 & 9, maybe also the Giulini/CSO 9th.

walboi · Post by **walboi** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:20 am

For me Kubelik is more near to the heart of Dvorak, he lets the music speak for itself, Kertez is too extreme at times, but regarded by me as a good set to have.

dirkronk · Post by **dirkronk** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:45 am

Even though I've listened to these for many years and have portions of both sets in my collection, I have neither set complete, so take my recommendation with a grain of salt.

If I were buying one, it would be the Kertesz. Two reasons: (1) I prefer the excitement and comparative seriousness with which Kertesz treats the early symphonies and (2) sonics. Decca consistently outdoes the DGG for clarity, spatial specificity and general impact in the original analog recordings; how they've transferred to CD I cannot promise. That said, you will almost surely supplement any complete set with your favorite performances of the 9th, 8th and perhaps the 7th. I happen to love Kubelik's Berlin "New World"--in fact, I like this better than either Kertesz's LSO or VPO versions, which both have claims on any listener--but the 9th alone does not an integral cycle make. I also like Stokowski/New Philharmonia (RCA), Szell (original Epic vinyl, haven't heard the CD transfer), and Horenstein/RPO, all almost equally well for the 9th.

Also, let me echo Lance in recommending augmentation of your choice with the masterful Talich...and perhaps with Ancerl and Sejna...all with the Czech PO IIRC. Sejna's middle Dvorak symphonies are some of the most beautiful and simply (but convincingly) played versions I've heard, but it took the urging of a poster on another board to first bring this conductor to my attention several years back. I hereby return the favor by urging you to listen if you happen to run across his recordings (found mine on LP; don't know about CD availability...sorry).

Happy listening,

Dirk

diegobueno · Post by **diegobueno** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:07 pm

Kertesz is noteworthy for taking all of the repeats wherever they occur. You don't get to hear the 1st ending in the first movement of the 9th very often, but here it is. Once through the exposition of the 1st symphony strikes me as already too much, but I suppose if you're going to do the piece at all you might as well go all the way (It's been a long time since I've heard the 1st, so I hope I'm correct in remembering it has a repeat).

knotslip · Post by **knotslip** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:18 pm

Wow, after 13 votes it is nearly a tie with Kubelik winning at this point by a single vote. This must speak for how great both of these sets are. I figure a landslide would say that one is definitely better than the other but this says that both are very equal and it seems to be left to ones preference of the performances or sentimental value. I'm assuming that both are nearly equal sonically, although some have mentioned that the Decca recording may edge out the DG.

It looks like no matter which set I end up with, I will have a good set of Dvorak symphonies. I will also look into some of the supplemental discs that some have mentioned and some of the vinyl if I can find it.

Thanks for the votes and suggetions.

niper · Post by **niper** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:19 pm

Try for 9.symphony;
Dvorék: Symphonie No. 9 "From the New World"; Smetana: Die Moldau; Liszt: Les Préludes [Australia] by Fricsay, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Antonin Dvorak, and Ferenc Friscay (Audio CD - Jul 2, 2001) /Deutsche grammophone
Outshines Kubelik(CSO and BPO) and Kertesz!!!

Donaldopato · Post by **Donaldopato** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:41 pm

knotslip wrote:Wow, after 13 votes it is nearly a tie with Kubelik winning at this point by a single vote....

It looks like no matter which set I end up with, I will have a good set of Dvorak symphonies. I will also look into some of the supplemental discs that some have mentioned and some of the vinyl if I can find it.

Thanks for the votes and suggestions.

While I expressed a personal preference for the Kertesz, you could not go wrong with either.

Wallingford · Post by **Wallingford** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:23 pm

I've just cast my vote & made Kertesz tie with the other!

Take it from a late voter: Kertesz's has the edge in terms of warmth & folksiness....also mystery & wonder.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:03 pm

for Symphony #9 - "New World"

Toscanini/NBC from 2/53 takes the prize for me - this is one of AT's best-ever performances - absolutely thrilling in every respect.
Reiner/CSO and Szell/CO are also great recordings as well.

hautbois · Post by **hautbois** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:39 pm

To be slightly ignorant of the original question on this thread, i would skip the veterans and be bold and shout out loud:

When we have so many Dvorak 9ths on the market, why do we need more? Well, it is so well crafted and skillfully written, and with an interpretation done so well one cannot help it but be in awe when listening to Fischer's Budapest recording coupled with the 8th. (I can't say the same for the 8th in this recording though.)

We tend to give less chances to newer recordings, and although conductors from the previous generation has done remarkable things, the standard of orchestras today has reached, almost, i would say, an ultimate peak. And you simply cannot comment much on the sonics as Philips is just so fine in that aspect since the 1950s. Fischer takes so many positive and refreshing 'risks' in tempi that one would be completely shocked or disturbed if one is more than familiar with the interpretations of Kertesz or Kubelik. It is incredibly well polished and that is rare in the recording industry these days.

Ivan Fischer, Budapest Festival Orchestra, Dvorak 8th and 9th, buy now!
(I sound like a vacuum cleaner salesmen on the television i am sure.)

Jack Kelso · Post by **Jack Kelso** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:33 am

niper wrote:Try for 9.symphony;
Dvorék: Symphonie No. 9 "From the New World"; Smetana: Die Moldau; Liszt: Les Préludes [Australia] by Fricsay, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Antonin Dvorak, and Ferenc Friscay (Audio CD - Jul 2, 2001) /Deutsche grammophone
Outshines Kubelik(CSO and BPO) and Kertesz!!!

I have that recording too. And I agree. Fricsay cannot be outdone here.

By the way, (I apologize for changing the subject) ---does anyone know whatever happened to his marvelous recording of Beethoven's 7th Symphony on DGG with the Berlin Phil.?? Has it ever been reissued...?!

Jack

Post by **Lance** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:32 am

Jack Kelso wrote: [snipped] By the way, (I apologize for changing the subject) ---does anyone know whatever happened to his marvelous recording of Beethoven's 7th Symphony on DGG with the Berlin Phil.?? Has it ever been reissued...?!

Jack

Hi, Jack:

Yes - I searched forever the Beethoven. I finally got a copy on a DGG "twofer" from France. It's DG catalogue number 457.952 and offers Beethoven's Symphonies 3, 5, 7, and 8. No. 8 is the only one recorded in mono (1953). Amazon-France had it. I got my copy in March 2007. The price was (then) $24.36 and the postage was $11.00. For a "twofer," it's kind of steep (even without the postage), but when you want something, you want it. Nobody knows that feeling more than yours truly!

I will be curious to know if you acquire it. Hopefully, four months later, it should still be in the catalogue. Interestingly, I have ONLY been able to find it in France. England doesn't have it nor does Germany. So many of those DGG "twofers" never made it to the shores of the USA. Apparently Fricsay is still a hot item in Europe for collectors as he is in the USA. I collect every note of his I can put my hands on.

Jack Kelso · Post by **Jack Kelso** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:43 am

Lance wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote: [snipped] By the way, (I apologize for changing the subject) ---does anyone know whatever happened to his marvelous recording of Beethoven's 7th Symphony on DGG with the Berlin Phil.?? Has it ever been reissued...?!

Jack
Hi, Jack:

Yes - I searched forever the Beethoven. I finally got a copy on a DGG "twofer" from France. It's DG catalogue number 457.952 and offers Beethoven's Symphonies 3, 5, 7, and 8. No. 8 is the only one recorded in mono (1953). Amazon-France had it. I got my copy in March 2007. The price was (then) $24.36 and the postage was $11.00. For a "twofer," it's kind of steep (even without the postage), but when you want something, you want it. Nobody knows that feeling more than yours truly!

I will be curious to know if you acquire it. Hopefully, four months later, it should still be in the catalogue. Interestingly, I have ONLY been able to find it in France. England doesn't have it nor does Germany. So many of those DGG "twofers" never made it to the shores of the USA. Apparently Fricsay is still a hot item in Europe for collectors as he is in the USA. I collect every note of his I can put my hands on.

Wow! Thanks, Lance.....then there IS hope. I'll see if I can order it in Mannheim, giving them the useful info you supplied me. I'll keep you posted.....

Jack

knotslip · Post by **knotslip** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:29 pm

A tie? Hmmm...That doesn't help me decide what set to buy...

I guess what I've learned here is that I can't go wrong either way and that there are many other recordings that are very good and should compliment either of these sets that I buy.

Thanks for the votes. I may have to flip a coin after all

knotslip · Post by **knotslip** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:49 pm

Well, I went a searched around online for these two sets and I made my decision. They are, apparently, both very good sets and received an equal number of votes here so I am going to base my purchase purely on price (not a coin flip). The Kertesz is almost half the price of the Kubelik. That will allow me to buy more music also.

Thanks again for the votes and the great recommendations for other discs. Who knows, I may end up with both eventually.

ChrisX · Post by **ChrisX** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:58 am

knotslip wrote:Well, I went a searched around online for these two sets and I made my decision. They are, apparently, both very good sets and received an equal number of votes here so I am going to base my purchase purely on price (not a coin flip). The Kertesz is almost half the price of the Kubelik. That will allow me to buy more music also.

Thanks again for the votes and the great recommendations for other discs. Who knows, I may end up with both eventually.

OK, resurrecting an old thread from the 'grave' while checking wether there had been past threads on Dvorak's symphonies, I was curious how it has worked out.

Me, I still only own the 9th symphony by Fricsay.... well, I own it again. I recently sold an earlier incarnation of it in order to get the DGG Originals version and it has just arrived in the mail.... Hmm... in a few minutes I will settle down and enjoy it again after not having listened to it in (guessing) 2 or 3 years... hmm, so much music, so little time.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:52 am

ChrisX wrote: Me, I still only own the 9th symphony by Fricsay.... well, I own it again.....in a few minutes I will settle down and enjoy it again after not having listened to it in (guessing) 2 or 3 years... hmm, so much music, so little time.

last night I listened to the wonderful Kertesz/LSO renditions of symphonies 3,4,and 5..
really fine stuff - #4 is esp good - this symphony should be a concert staple on the list of every orchestra...3 and 5 are really good too...
the Kertesz recordings are so vigorous, spontaneous, brassy, exciting...

people get stuck too much into just the last 3 Dvorak symphonies - tho #6 is making a well-deserved surge in popularity - it appears more and more on orchestra programs. it is generally my favorite Dvorak symphony. the earlier symphonies, just like those of Tchaikovsky are defintely worth exploring...

THEHORN · Post by **THEHORN** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:16 am

I don't think any one can go wrong with either the Kubelik or Kertesz sets, but I do like the fact that Kertesz takes ALL the repaeats, despite the fact that Dvorak did not want them to be taken, and never did when conducting them himself.
And here's some interesting news : Emmaunel Krivine has just come out with a PERIOD INSTRUMENT recording of the New World ! I don't remember the name of the period instrument group or the label offhand, but David Hurwitz did not like it at all on classicstoday.com. He thought the orchestra was just too small, with too few strings.
I'm certainly curious to hear this though, although I'm
rather skeptical about just how "authentic" this performance is.
Wow ! HIP Dvorak ! What next ?

Sylph · Post by **Sylph** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:26 am

THEHORN wrote: I don't remember the name of the period instrument group or the label offhand, but David Hurwitz did not like it at all on classicstoday.com. He thought the orchestra was just too small, with too few strings.

He calls it “an aural atrocity”!

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:19 pm

I have both. You cannot go wrong with either Kubelik or Kertesz. Kubelik may be more idiomatic, but Kertesz is very exciting. May, I put in a good word for the underrated Witold Rowicki's Philips set with the London Symphony. A sleeper set that is dramatic and very convincing.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:24 pm

stenka razin wrote:I have both. You cannot go wrong with either Kubelik or Kertesz.

Ditto.

Cheers,
~Karl

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:46 pm

THEHORN wrote: Wow ! HIP Dvorak ! What next ?

HIP Carter, HIP Corigliano...

what a scam.....

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:55 pm

stenka razin wrote:I have both. You cannot go wrong with either Kubelik or Kertesz. Kubelik may be more idiomatic, but Kertesz is very exciting.

I was listening to Kubelik's Dvorak #8 [1966] with the CSO, on a "Tribute to Kubelik" set issued by the orchestra - it's OK, but it's just too laid back, to genteel...

but that's a problem I have generally with Kubelik - he's too "nice".

same thing with the Roussel Sym #3 - Kubelik's CSO version does not compare well with Munch/CSO, or Bernstein/NYPO - both of whom really get the energy, the boisterousness, the vigor of the score across in spades. Kubelik is too placid, passive, he misses the energy.
I feel the same comparison applies between his and Kertesz's Dvorak...Kertesz/LSO really know when to "drive it home"...

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:31 pm

Heck148 wrote:
stenka razin wrote:I have both. You cannot go wrong with either Kubelik or Kertesz. Kubelik may be more idiomatic, but Kertesz is very exciting.
I was listening to Kubelik's Dvorak #8 [1966] with the CSO, on a "Tribute to Kubelik" set issued by the orchestra - it's OK, but it's just too laid back, to genteel...

but that's a problem I have generally with Kubelik - he's too "nice".

same thing with the Roussel Sym #3 - Kubelik's CSO version does not compare well with Munch/CSO, or Bernstein/NYPO - both of whom really get the energy, the boisterousness, the vigor of the score across in spades. Kubelik is too placid, passive, he misses the energy.
I feel the same comparison applies between his and Kertesz's Dvorak...Kertesz/LSO really know when to "drive it home"...

Heck, do you feel the same way about Kubelik's Mahler set?

The Kertesz and Kubelik sets are available at the same price in Dublin. I'd probably choose the Kertesz because I don't yet have any of his recordings.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:58 pm

Seán wrote:
Heck148 wrote:
stenka razin wrote:I have both. You cannot go wrong with either Kubelik or Kertesz. Kubelik may be more idiomatic, but Kertesz is very exciting.
I was listening to Kubelik's Dvorak #8 [1966] with the CSO, on a "Tribute to Kubelik" set issued by the orchestra - it's OK, but it's just too laid back, to genteel...

but that's a problem I have generally with Kubelik - he's too "nice".

same thing with the Roussel Sym #3 - Kubelik's CSO version does not compare well with Munch/CSO, or Bernstein/NYPO - both of whom really get the energy, the boisterousness, the vigor of the score across in spades. Kubelik is too placid, passive, he misses the energy.
I feel the same comparison applies between his and Kertesz's Dvorak...Kertesz/LSO really know when to "drive it home"...
Heck, do you feel the same way about Kubelik's Mahler set?

The Kertesz and Kubelik sets are available at the same price in Dublin. I'd probably choose the Kertesz because I don't yet have any of his recordings.

Istvan Kertesz died tragically young, you would be doing yourself a favour my starting to collect his recordings...

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:00 pm

Seán wrote: Heck, do you feel the same way about Kubelik's Mahler set?

yes. also the BRSO, at the time, was a pretty light-hitting outfit. They came thru town on tour when I was in school...I need more "balls" for Mahler, for anything really.....

The Kertesz and Kubelik sets are available at the same price in Dublin. I'd probably choose the Kertesz because I don't yet have any of his recordings.

you won't be disappointed with the Kertesz set. he makes a really good case for the earlier symphonies...all of them are well done - with #s 6 and 9 being really outstanding...best versions I've ever heard of each.

Donaldopato · Post by **Donaldopato** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:30 am

Can't go wrong with Kertesz in these works. I have had them in my library almost since I began listening to classical music in the 70's.

david johnson · Post by **david johnson** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:07 am

You must acquire both sets. you will never be happy otherwise.

dj

ChrisX · Post by **ChrisX** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:39 am

This is the Kertesz set right? There is a bit of conflicting info on the page at Amazon UK so... are their symphonies in this set spread out over 2 cd's?

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:33 am

ChrisX wrote:
This is the Kertesz set right? There is a bit of conflicting info on the page at Amazon UK so... are their symphonies in this set spread out over 2 cd's?

6CDs total, at least in mine:

4 disc set: syms 1-6 + "In Nature's Realm"
2 disc set: 7-9, plus + overtures + Scherzo Capriccioso

great "Carnival Overture" - along with Reiner, the best I've heard...

ChrisX · Post by **ChrisX** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:55 am

Heck148 wrote:
ChrisX wrote:
This is the Kertesz set right? There is a bit of conflicting info on the page at Amazon UK so... are their symphonies in this set spread out over 2 cd's?
6CDs total, at least in mine:

4 disc set: syms 1-6 + "In Nature's Realm"
2 disc set: 7-9, plus + overtures + Scherzo Capriccioso

great "Carnival Overture" - along with Reiner, the best I've heard...

Just to be clear: no symphony is divided over 2 cd's, because I hate that.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:44 am

ChrisX wrote:
Just to be clear: no symphony is divided over 2 cd's, because I hate that.

#2 and # 5 are split, with one mvt of each on a different disc. the rest are all intact...it's no big deal if you have a multi-disc layer.

ChrisX · Post by **ChrisX** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:30 pm

Heck148 wrote: #2 and # 5 are split, with one mvt of each on a different disc. the rest are all intact...it's no big deal if you have a multi-disc layer.

aargh.... I really hate when they do that... and I don't have a multi-disc player, never have been into opera (which seems to me like the one thing it could be useful to).

Hmm... well, maybe I have to live with it since all that has been written about Kertesz performances seems like they are right up my alley and would fit in nicely with the Fricsay's 9th symphony style wise.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:53 pm

ChrisX wrote:
Heck148 wrote: #2 and # 5 are split, with one mvt of each on a different disc. the rest are all intact...it's no big deal if you have a multi-disc layer.
aargh.... I really hate when they do that... and I don't have a multi-disc player, never have been into opera (which seems to me like the one thing it could be useful to).

Wassup, did you never own LP's...

hangos · Post by **hangos** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:26 pm

Kubelik "too nice" in Dvorak? Surely you can't have listened to his nos. 7 and 8 - they both catch fire - IMHO Kertesz lacks a little tension, not Kubelik!

I vote for Kubelik!

Chalkperson wrote:I was listening to Kubelik's Dvorak #8 [1966] with the CSO, on a "Tribute to Kubelik" set issued by the orchestra - it's OK, but it's just too laid back, to genteel...

but that's a problem I have generally with Kubelik - he's too "nice".
Kubelik is too placid, passive, he misses the energy.
I feel the same comparison applies between his and Kertesz's Dvorak...Kertesz/LSO really know when to "drive it home"...

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:42 pm

Chalkperson wrote:I was listening to Kubelik's Dvorak #8 [1966] with the CSO, on a "Tribute to Kubelik" set issued by the orchestra - it's OK, but it's just too laid back, to genteel...

but that's a problem I have generally with Kubelik - he's too "nice".
Kubelik is too placid, passive, he misses the energy.
I feel the same comparison applies between his and Kertesz's Dvorak...Kertesz/LSO really know when to "drive it home"...

Not Guilty, that's Heck's quote, I have a Japanese SACD of the 7th and 9th by Kubelik and it is an incredible performance, only Kondrashin on Decca is better in No.9...

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:07 pm

hangos wrote:Kubelik "too nice" in Dvorak? Surely you can't have listened to his nos. 7 and 8 - they both catch fire -

Kubelik just doesn't drive it hard enough where necessary - he's good, OK, but I like others better -

#7 - Kertesz is very good, but Monteux/LSO is the top one for me - great recording, perfectly paced, excting and beautifully played.

for #8 - Kertesz/LSO wins it for me - passionate, spontaneous, brilliant...Dorati/LSO is plenty fiery, and Szell/Cleveland produced 2 good ones - for CBS, and later for EMI

for the ever-popular #9 - the competion is fierce, of course - Toscanin/NBC takes the prize for me - one of AT/NBC's greatest efforts - really magnicent - Reiner/CSO is a great one also, and Szell/CO is right up there...Kubelik's CSO one is good, but, for me, not quite in the class of the others.

Heck148 wrote:I was listening to Kubelik's Dvorak #8 [1966] with the CSO, on a "Tribute to Kubelik" set issued by the orchestra - it's OK, but it's just too laid back, to genteel...
but that's a problem I have generally with Kubelik - he's too "nice".

Sylph · Post by **Sylph** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:02 am

Heck148 wrote: for the ever-popular #9 - the competion is fierce, of course - Toscanin/NBC takes the prize for me - one of AT/NBC's greatest efforts - really magnicent - Reiner/CSO is a great one also, and Szell/CO is right up there...Kubelik's CSO one is good, but, for me, not quite in the class of the others.

Have you heard Abbado on DVD?

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:37 am

Sylph wrote:
Have you heard Abbado on DVD?

no, what orchestra??

Sylph · Post by **Sylph** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:47 am

Heck148 wrote:
Sylph wrote:
Have you heard Abbado on DVD?
no, what orchestra??

Berlin Philharmonic, of course.

ChrisX · Post by **ChrisX** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:40 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Wassup, did you never own LP's...

Haha.. well actually I did but that was mostly rock and electronic music and almost no classical music. I did tape a lot of records from the local library but somehow never go to works longer then 45 minutes. Bruckner certainly wasn't part of my listening habit then.

hangos · Post by **hangos** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:57 pm

Kubelik went on record (no pun intended) as stating that he did not really believe in Dvorak's earliest symphonies, but his love, indeed smouldering passion for 7,8,9 comes out very clearly in his 1960-70s DG recordings of these last three masterpieces.
I must have cloth ears, but anybody who doesn't regard the massive clashes in the first movements of 7 and 8 as red-hot and incredibly tense under Kubelik's baton had better buy a smoke alarm pretty damn quick!

In fact, he screws the tension up as well as any other conductor I've ever heard! The musicians play as if their lives were at stake!
No point in trying to convince those who can't seem to hear this...............

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:13 pm

hangos wrote:No point in trying to convince those who can't seem to hear this....

Oh. I hear what he does just fine. it's just that others do it alot better, with more tension built up and released. other conductors are harder "drivers", which I generally favor.

My favorite Kubleik recordings are the accompaniments he did for Schoenberg's Vln Cto, Pfe Concerto, and Berg Vln concerto - with Zeitlin, Brendel and Szeryng, with BPO, BRSO - on DG Universal.
very fine disc...

dirkronk · Post by **dirkronk** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:27 pm

Heck148 wrote: for the ever-popular #9 - the competion is fierce, of course - Toscanin/NBC takes the prize for me - one of AT/NBC's greatest efforts - really magnicent - Reiner/CSO is a great one also, and Szell/CO is right up there...Kubelik's CSO one is good, but, for me, not quite in the class of the others.

While I'll stick by my original recommendations for the 9th (way up on this list, from last year), I'll add my endorsement for the Fricsay and also happily second Heck's mention of the Reiner. An excellent performance. And in good sound for its time. But therein lies a warning...

Anyone still collecting vinyl on the used market is urged to AVOID all analog incarnations of the Reiner New World. I don't know what the guys at RCA were doing back when, but they managed to mangle every analog transfer I've ever heard--including a half dozen different pressings of the shaded dog, and a handful of later LP issues as well. I haven't ever heard the reel-to-reel issue, but later cassette tapes weren't much better than the vinyl version. It was obvious that somewhere on the original master tape, there was excellent sound, but on the actual record it perpetually suffered from a proverbial "veil" over the sound...and it was not until its fully refurbished release on Living Stereo CD that the original fine sonics were at long last revealed. I assume that the compatible SACD has equally good or better sound. And I don't make that recommendation easily: as those who've followed my past postings will recall, I normally prefer well-done analog originals to ANY digital transfer, and that includes most Reiner stereo releases. However, for his Dvorak New World--and also for his Rossini overtures on RCA Gold Seal CD, to name another example--the CD transfers tromp all over the vinyl.

OTOH, if a first-class analog reissue label like Speakers Corner were to put out LPs of both of these items--WITH the top quality sonics that were obviously there all along on the master tape--I would happily part with 30+ bucks a pop to get them. Especially the Rossini. (Do we have anyone from Speakers Corner monitoring the board, perhaps?

)

Cheers,

Dirk

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:01 pm

Dvorak is someone that I have just never really got to grips with (especially the early symphonies) but in the interest of open and fair mindedness I am going to put the Kertesz cycle on my shopping list.

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