A Beatles Song.....?!?

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Jack Kelso
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A Beatles Song.....?!?

Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:45 am

I am pretty certain that the Beatles "stole" a melody from the following work:

HANDEL: Hornpipe from Concerto Grosso No. 7 in B Major, opus 6

Its jaunty rhythm reminds me of one of their songs....but I just can't place it. Can anyone help with this mystery?

Thanks!

Tschüß!
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:48 am

Can you hum a few bars? :)

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Post by Harold Tucker » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:14 am

nope


link

SaulChanukah

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:37 am

I just dont hear any Beatles here. Amazon gives a minute of music, maybe you mean further in the piece.

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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:36 am

Harold Tucker wrote:nope


link
I suppose what Harold means is that it is in B-flat, not B.

Well, obviously, it is Hey Jude. You have found it; now go and get it.

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Post by slofstra » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am

Clearly, it is Helter Skelter, played backwards though. Too good for the Beatles. Does anyone know what 'Because' ripped?

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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:44 am

I was serious about Hey Jude, but it also resembles the famous slow movement of the Bach oboe concerto. These things are coincidence. I can hear the motif you're referring to (it is orchestral) but can't place it (wild guess: Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juleit?). I assume it is also coincidence, as is the resemblance of the theme of Bach's great fugue in E-flat to the hymn tune "St. Anne."

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Post by Harold Tucker » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:37 pm

Word on the street was that "Because" was Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata played backwards.

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Re: A Beatles Song.....?!?

Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:17 am

Jack Kelso wrote:I am pretty certain that the Beatles "stole" a melody from the following work:

HANDEL: Hornpipe from Concerto Grosso No. 7 in B Major, opus 6

Its jaunty rhythm reminds me of one of their songs....but I just can't place it. Can anyone help with this mystery?
Hey! You don't get any credit for your find until you link it to the specific Beatles tune you were thinking it was. It sort of dances around "Lady Madonna" but I would still call it a miss.
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ginosec
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Post by ginosec » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:47 pm

could it be the song "Piggies" from The White Album?

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:12 pm

ginosec wrote:could it be the song "Piggies" from The White Album?
OK, folks: SOL-mi-mi-SOL-LA-re

Then (much faster): SOL-mi-mi-FA-SOL-LA-re-re

And "Because" is Scheherezade (it finally came to me). We are only talking about brief motifs, not obvious parodies like "Tonight We Love" or "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows."

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Jack Kelso
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Post by Jack Kelso » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:17 am

jbuck919 wrote:I was serious about Hey Jude, but it also resembles the famous slow movement of the Bach oboe concerto. These things are coincidence. I can hear the motif you're referring to (it is orchestral) but can't place it (wild guess: Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juleit?). I assume it is also coincidence, as is the resemblance of the theme of Bach's great fugue in E-flat to the hymn tune "St. Anne."
I heard the group used to sit around listening to Baroque tunes, looking for inspiration for their texts. Who'd know if it was stolen?

Like---hey, who was a 60's Beatles fan and knew "classical" music too, huh?!

Jack
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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:35 am

Jack Kelso wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:I was serious about Hey Jude, but it also resembles the famous slow movement of the Bach oboe concerto. These things are coincidence. I can hear the motif you're referring to (it is orchestral) but can't place it (wild guess: Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juleit?). I assume it is also coincidence, as is the resemblance of the theme of Bach's great fugue in E-flat to the hymn tune "St. Anne."
I heard the group used to sit around listening to Baroque tunes, looking for inspiration for their texts. Who'd know if it was stolen?

Like---hey, who was a 60's Beatles fan and knew "classical" music too, huh?!

Jack
They spent all their free time drinking and smoking pot and f*cking their old ladies, and "I wanna hold your hand" is also not the Pas de Deux from Nutcracker.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Jack Kelso » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:48 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:I was serious about Hey Jude, but it also resembles the famous slow movement of the Bach oboe concerto. These things are coincidence. I can hear the motif you're referring to (it is orchestral) but can't place it (wild guess: Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juleit?). I assume it is also coincidence, as is the resemblance of the theme of Bach's great fugue in E-flat to the hymn tune "St. Anne."
I heard the group used to sit around listening to Baroque tunes, looking for inspiration for their texts. Who'd know if it was stolen?

Like---hey, who was a 60's Beatles fan and knew "classical" music too, huh?!

Jack
They spent all their free time drinking and smoking pot and f*cking their old ladies, and "I wanna hold your hand" is also not the Pas de Deux from Nutcracker.
Well. Nice that we agree on that, John :shock:

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by piston » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:24 am

Correction. Let's get our facts straight, John. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is not about pot.....
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:40 am

piston wrote:Correction. Let's get our facts straight, John. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is not about pot.....
All right, now let's find the classical inspiration for the slightly more sophisticated motif of "Norwegian Wood."

(Shows you what a powerful force the Beatles were in pop culture. I have never liked pop/rock, and didn't as a kid; they were simply inevitable.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by ginosec » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:44 pm

this one's more obvious
Tchaikovsky - Manfred Symphony in B minor

Though the song is at least innovative with the first use of a sitar in a pop record

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Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:29 am

jbuck919 wrote:(Shows you what a powerful force the Beatles were in pop culture. I have never liked pop/rock, and didn't as a kid; they were simply inevitable.)
Same here, John. Even as a kid I never went through a pop phase.

Most people thought I was a snob, like "hey, you gotta like listen to everything!" Well, I don't EAT everything (banana peels, spoiled meat, etc.) so why should I LISTEN to everything?

Best,
Jack
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:57 am

Jack Kelso wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:(Shows you what a powerful force the Beatles were in pop culture. I have never liked pop/rock, and didn't as a kid; they were simply inevitable.)
Same here, John. Even as a kid I never went through a pop phase.

Most people thought I was a snob, like "hey, you gotta like listen to everything!" Well, I don't EAT everything (banana peels, spoiled meat, etc.) so why should I LISTEN to everything?

Best,
Jack
Well, I was too much of a nerd for them to bother thinking I was a snob. :) But I learned early on, if it's meaningful learning, that when it comes to music, if everybody thinks it's cool, it can't be worth my time. And while that phenomenon dates only to the beginning of the pop/rock era (prior to that popular music had a certain deserved universality), it persists in the tribalism of what kids "listen" to today. Just chaperone a high school dance sometime and you'll realize that it only gets worse and worse.

As I have posted before, I watch Jeopardy every night in order to keep company with my mother, who is still proud of her bright boy. :oops: There is often a pop music category, and it astonishes me that these (usually young) people can actually answer all those questions demonstrating what kind of time they've wasted with "music" I have never even heard of when they usually leave any classical music category untouched for the end, mess up on it in spite of ridiculously easy questions, and leave it unfinished at the buzzer.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:39 am

Jack Kelso wrote:Even as a kid I never went through a pop phase.
The first music I ever heard was classical. Standards of the 40s came later. I went thru phases - all classical or all pop. I found by the time I was in college it would take me weeks of listening to one to "acclimatize" myself to it after listening to the other for months or years. Even now, I alternate between classical and The Great American Songbook. I don't do much pop after the mid-50s. With XM Radio it's easy to focus.
Most people thought I was a snob, like "hey, you gotta like listen to everything!"
I don't remember anyone ever saying anything to me about my interest in classical music.
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Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:58 am

Heidi and I watch a few t.v. quiz shows from time to time. Almost every category of human endeavor is included at any time----but rarely "classical" music.

If it's "Literatur", Goethe, Schiller or modern masters crop up (usually German, sometimes English, Russian or French).

If the category says, "Musik" it's almost always "pop", "rock" or some other crap. Funny---other subjects include fine, intelligent questions.

We just look at each other, smile, and shake our heads......

Jack
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:03 am

Jack Kelso wrote:Heidi and I watch a few t.v. quiz shows from time to time. Almost every category of human endeavor is included at any time----but rarely "classical" music.

If it's "Literatur", Goethe, Schiller or modern masters crop up (usually German, sometimes English, Russian or French).

If the category says, "Musik" it's almost always "pop", "rock" or some other crap. Funny---other subjects include fine, intelligent questions.

We just look at each other, smile, and shake our heads......

Jack
Has nothing to do with music, but I was so pleased with myself in Germany when I watched an episode of their version of Millionaire and the contestant did not know the answer to the question, "What German city did Goethe compare to Paris in Faust?" I knew. (It's Leipzig, as you probably know.)

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Classical music is always the odd one out!

Post by hangos » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:36 am

Jack Kelso wrote:Heidi and I watch a few t.v. quiz shows from time to time. Almost every category of human endeavor is included at any time----but rarely "classical" music.

If it's "Literatur", Goethe, Schiller or modern masters crop up (usually German, sometimes English, Russian or French).

If the category says, "Musik" it's almost always "pop", "rock" or some other crap. Funny---other subjects include fine, intelligent questions

Jack
That's been exactly my experience over the years, in which I've met lots of very intelligent and artistic people who will gladly discuss fine books and paintings but would never dream of listening to "serious" music - prog. rock, sure, but never realising that Zappa etc. were great admirers of the kind of music that they themselves never even got as far as listening to before dismissing it out of hand! :) :)

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Re: Classical music is always the odd one out!

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:06 pm

hangos wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:Heidi and I watch a few t.v. quiz shows from time to time. Almost every category of human endeavor is included at any time----but rarely "classical" music.

If it's "Literatur", Goethe, Schiller or modern masters crop up (usually German, sometimes English, Russian or French).

If the category says, "Musik" it's almost always "pop", "rock" or some other crap. Funny---other subjects include fine, intelligent questions

Jack
That's been exactly my experience over the years, in which I've met lots of very intelligent and artistic people who will gladly discuss fine books and paintings but would never dream of listening to "serious" music - prog. rock, sure, but never realising that Zappa etc. were great admirers of the kind of music that they themselves never even got as far as listening to before dismissing it out of hand! :) :)
You never can tell. The football coach at my old school, a man of no particular cultivation, always had classical music of the greatest discernment playing in his office. One day I asked him what his background for it was. "I've just always loved classical music."

Another time (I think I've told this one before) one of the arrangers at the Army Band at Fort Meade came and spoke to a group of students (not necessarily all musicians). He did a wildly impressive demonstration of how a modern arranger works, but only at the very end did he venture something classical (sorry, can't remember what it was). He actually apologized for it to the kids. In front of them, for they needed to hear this, I said "never apologize for liking classical music, Eric."

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by karlhenning » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:30 pm

Maybe I should finish that marching band arrangement of "The Legend of the Illinois Enema Bandit," after all . . . .
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:36 pm

karlhenning wrote:Maybe I should finish that marching band arrangement of "The Legend of the Illinois Enema Bandit," after all . . . .
Concert band, Karl, concert band. The ghost of Frederick Fennel smiles on you.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Joe Barron » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:33 pm

karlhenning wrote:Maybe I should finish that marching band arrangement of "The Legend of the Illinois Enema Bandit," after all . . . .
Ain't talkin' 'bout Fontana
Ain't talkin' 'bout Potato-Headed Bombay
Talking 'bout the Illinoiiiiiisssss ---

It can't happen here.

Karl, we really should try to meet up in Boston in November.

As for the Hornpipe, I've listened to it again, and it doesn't remind me of the Beatles at all. The only thing I can think of it comes close to, rhythmically, is "Eleanor Rigby," but that doesn't seem right.
Last edited by Joe Barron on Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by SamLowry » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:03 am

I've noticed that Haydn, Bach and Mozart occasionally sound "trite" to me. In the latter it may be occasionally in his string quintets for example.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because popular song(s) and/or jingle(s) borrowed/stole something from the above - directly or indirectly - and after hearing the "counterfeit" version too many times, I have less interest in finally hearing the real thing, unfortunately. (Trust me, I'm not saying I never listen to any of those quintets.)

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Post by jbuck919 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:29 am

SamLowry wrote:I've noticed that Haydn, Bach and Mozart occasionally sound "trite" to me. In the latter it may be occasionally in his string quintets for example.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because popular song(s) and/or jingle(s) borrowed/stole something from the above - directly or indirectly - and after hearing the "counterfeit" version too many times, I have less interest in finally hearing the real thing, unfortunately. (Trust me, I'm not saying I never listen to any of those quintets.)
Do kindly enlighten us as to which of the string quintets are spoiled by popular borrowings. Speaking only for myself, I am willing to take the risk.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Chalkperson » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:03 pm

SamLowry wrote:I've noticed that Haydn, Bach and Mozart occasionally sound "trite" to me. In the latter it may be occasionally in his string quintets for example.
The String Quintets are some of his most sublime works, don't quite see how you can call them 'trite'...or have them downgraded in your mind because they get ripped off for TV ad's... :shock:

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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:16 pm

SamLowry wrote:I've noticed that Haydn, Bach and Mozart occasionally sound "trite" to me. In the latter it may be occasionally in his string quintets for example.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because popular song(s) and/or jingle(s) borrowed/stole something from the above - directly or indirectly - and after hearing the "counterfeit" version too many times, I have less interest in finally hearing the real thing, unfortunately. (Trust me, I'm not saying I never listen to any of those quintets.)
So what does not sound trite compared to the Mozart String Quintets?

We may have to get Corylss to commence heresy proceedings

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Post by karlhenning » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:48 pm

The adjective "trite" and the Mozart viola quintets simply do not belong in the same sentence.
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Post by SamLowry » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:29 pm

I am willing to submit to whatever punishment the group deems reasonable, but I thought I should speak up before I'm banned for heresy and can't.

I just spoke exactly the truth. I did say "unfortunately." I didn't insist that anybody agree with my viewpoint as I think happened above directed toward me. I wasn't trying to describe the music, just my reaction to it.

I wondered if some would react strongly. How brave of you to take the side of perhaps the most beautiful chamber music ever written.

I love the quintets. Just not every single movement equally. I wish it was otherwise!!!!!

Sorry for shouting.

I gave the quintets as an example, trying to support my theory for why I enjoy some classical music less than I expect to. There are certain movements in the London Symphonies, about which I wonder similarly: "Why don't I enjoy this movement as much?" My instincts tell me that it's because I already and repeatedly heard similar in a related and probably corrupted form, and it spoiled my enjoyment. (Maybe I should believe in reincarnation.)

Trust me, that's not my default reasoning for why I like or dislike certain music.

Thanks for your continued tolerance of others' opinions on this forum. How about some understanding and compassion for your fellow man? "But for the grace of God, there go I."

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Post by karlhenning » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:37 pm

SamLowry wrote:I love the quintets. Just not every single movement equally.
Well, that's all right.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Post by jbuck919 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:39 pm

karlhenning wrote:
SamLowry wrote:I love the quintets. Just not every single movement equally.
Well, that's all right.

Cheers,
~Karl
:roll:

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:44 pm

SamLowry wrote:I am willing to submit to whatever punishment the group deems reasonable, but I thought I should speak up before I'm banned for heresy and can't.

I just spoke exactly the truth. I did say "unfortunately." I didn't insist that anybody agree with my viewpoint as I think happened above directed toward me. I wasn't trying to describe the music, just my reaction to it.

I wondered if some would react strongly. How brave of you to take the side of perhaps the most beautiful chamber music ever written.

I love the quintets. Just not every single movement equally. I wish it was otherwise!!!!!

Sorry for shouting.

I gave the quintets as an example, trying to support my theory for why I enjoy some classical music less than I expect to. There are certain movements in the London Symphonies, about which I wonder similarly: "Why don't I enjoy this movement as much?" My instincts tell me that it's because I already and repeatedly heard similar in a related and probably corrupted form, and it spoiled my enjoyment. (Maybe I should believe in reincarnation.)

Trust me, that's not my default reasoning for why I like or dislike certain music.

Thanks for your continued tolerance of others' opinions on this forum. How about some understanding and compassion for your fellow man? "But for the grace of God, there go I."
Try some other periods. It is a rare classical period piece that has middle movements that do not bore me. Either that or we can burn you on the virtual stake :)

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Post by karlhenning » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:07 pm

jbuck919 wrote: :roll:
You'll have to enlarge on that emoticon, Johnnie! :-)

I stand by not finding even the least trace of trite in the Mozart viola quintets.

That said, how could one argue with not loving all movements of them "equally well"? Who is in possession of The Sonic Love Equations?

Cheers,
~Karl
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Post by jbuck919 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:16 pm

karlhenning wrote:
jbuck919 wrote: :roll:
You'll have to enlarge on that emoticon, Johnnie! :-)

I stand by not finding even the least trace of trite in the Mozart viola quintets.

That said, how could one argue with not loving all movements of them "equally well"? Who is in possession of The Sonic Love Equations?

Cheers,
~Karl
It was intended as a confirmation of the implied irony of your response, Karlito mio. (My, aren't we just so subtle here? Comrades in arms in defense of the Mozart quintets, which heaven knows need it.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:45 am

No chamber works of Mozart need any defense whatsoever.....ditto with Beethoven and Schumann. Their works contain the magic that make them sublime---and in some cases they reach the "other side" spiritually.

We all have areas where we don't see eye-to-eye with the majority.

To my taste, for example, I find a certain "triteness" in a number of Shostakovitch works, and an irritating "blandness" (tiredness of ideas) in several chamber works of Brahms, even though I know these works very well. (This will surely get a strong response from certain quarters :D )

Tschüß!
Jack
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