Anti-Beethovens

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BWV 1080
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Anti-Beethovens

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:59 am

Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:21 am

BWV 1080 wrote:Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.
Well, Steve, that is not anti-Beethoven, though you have in fact chosen a selection of more or less great composers who did an end run around any continuity stemming from him, and for many different reasons. Swerving does not mean ignoring, you know, and on your list, I doubt very much that Webern and Boulez would disagree with anything in this paragraph.

There is no virtue in ignoring, neglecting, or putting in the back pocket the heights of the classic art of all time, which is still so close in time to us that we can barely believe it, or comprehend a distance of ages. We will only keep it alive if we keep it in people's ears. There is no musical equivalent of a museum piece. All of them will crumble to dust, when music is theoretically immortal. On the other hand, a break in continuity would be death to the greatest art ever known. Beethoven wrote in a letter, I'm sorry I don't have the exact citation, something like "How will my music be known on Alpha Centauri?"

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:34 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Well, Steve, that is not anti-Beethoven, though you have in fact chosen a selection of more or less great composers who did an end run around any continuity stemming from him, and for many different reasons. Swerving does not mean ignoring, you know, and on your list, I doubt very much that Webern and Boulez would disagree with anything in this paragraph.

There is no virtue in ignoring, neglecting, or putting in the back pocket the heights of the classic art of all time, which is still so close in time to us that we can barely believe it, or comprehend a distance of ages. We will only keep it alive if we keep it in people's ears. There is no musical equivalent of a museum piece. All of them will crumble to dust, when music is theoretically immortal. On the other hand, a break in continuity would be death to the greatest art ever known. Beethoven wrote in a letter, I'm sorry I don't have the exact citation, something like "How will my music be known on Alpha Centauri?"
Surely there is nothing wrong with tolerating different musical aesthetics than Ludwigs? Or is that heresy? Of course no one is against Beethoven personally or against his legacy, it is only natural however that great artists look to do something different and not be beholden to his forms of expression.

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Post by karlhenning » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:40 am

John, it's time you learnt: great artists bridle against being advised what they "have to" do.

Not insignificantly, Beethoven was among them.

Cheers,
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Post by Sapphire » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:42 am

An amusing thread title.

The only two on BWV's list I like are Chopin and Schumann, and I agree they are "Beeethoven cleansers". I'd add Tchaikovsky, and replace Debussy by Ravel. These four, together with Schubert, keep me happy when I'm not in a Beethoven-style mood.


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Post by Brahms » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:46 am

You might want to avoid Brahms 1st Symphony .......

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Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:27 pm

Brahms wrote:You might want to avoid Brahms 1st Symphony .......
yeah, I will stick to op119

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Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:31 pm

Also, pretty much anything from Spain or Latin America. DeFalla is a good antidote to a Razumovsky overdose

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Post by Sapphire » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:59 pm

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire

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Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:09 pm

Saphire wrote:Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire
Well things are worse in the US, most private insurers have struck a deal with the Recording Industry Association of America to provide only overstocks of Yo Yo Ma crossover CD's to alleviate the conditions of BO (Beethoven Overdose)

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Post by Chalkperson » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:49 pm

Saphire wrote:Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire
Don't forget what happens to Alex in A Clockwork Orange, he literally did throw up at the sound of his hero "The Glorious Ludwig Van"... :wink:

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Post by Werner » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:51 pm

There is so much room for individual preferences in music that no one needs to be forced to like (or hate) any of the masters.

At the end of the day each of them will have their legacy intact (even Ludwig)

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Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:55 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Saphire wrote:Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire
Don't forget what happens to Alex in A Clockwork Orange, he literally did throw up at the sound of his hero "The Glorious Ludwig Van"... :wink:
Ah yes. Perhaps Rod could use a bit of the Ludovico treatment

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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:10 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Don't forget what happens to Alex in A Clockwork Orange, he literally did throw up at the sound of his hero "The Glorious Ludwig Van"... :wink:
That foolish movie is about an incorrigible hoodlum and employs the old sci-fi fall-back gimmick of mind control. It is not relevant to the topic.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. All the composers on Steve's list are in the same tradition. It is not to the point how a great Western composer after Brahms reacted to Beethoven, including ignoring him entirely. I also doubt very much that Picasso was seriously influenced by Rembrandt. The point is continuity of art within a cultural framework, something that could all too easily disappear.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:28 pm

Saphire wrote:Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire
Image

Post of the Day Award to ya, Saph.
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Opus132
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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Opus132 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:14 pm

BWV 1080 wrote: Surely there is nothing wrong with tolerating different musical aesthetics than Ludwigs?
At the expense of being intolerant towards musical aesthetics closer to those of Beethoven? We had that going with Paul already, it wasn't fun, why follow on his foot steps?

At any rate, nice list of composers, other then Boulez, Messiaen and Carter (yack on all three).

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by srappoport » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:21 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.
I am trying to figure out what you have against Beethoven. Is he played too much? Some of his works definitely are. Did he influence contemporary and subsequent composers more than is good for their reputations? Undoubtedly. Are there a lot of people out there who think that they are sophisticated because they can recognize themes from the Fifth or Ninth symphonies? Yup.

But I find Beethoven's works interesting almost always; it has a lot to do with the tension that he creates and eventually resolves and with his ability to create panoramas out of a few notes. Moreover, he can take repeated listening better than any other composer I can think of (with the possible exception of Schubert). For the most part, I find the composers on the list so taken with the idea of sound as an end in itself that their music is boring.

The list of composers quoted above who escaped from Ludwig's powers does not include Rossini or Verdi. Why not?

BWV 1080
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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:47 pm

Opus132 wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote: Surely there is nothing wrong with tolerating different musical aesthetics than Ludwigs?
At the expense of being intolerant towards musical aesthetics closer to those of Beethoven? We had that going with Paul already, it wasn't fun, why follow on his foot steps?

At any rate, nice list of composers, other then Boulez, Messiaen and Carter (yack on all three).
Whose being intolerant? I like Beethoven as much as the next guy, just need a different approach occasionally. So you like Webern but not Messiaen or Boulez? What's the difference there?

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Opus132 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:06 pm

BWV 1080 wrote: Whose being intolerant?
You just said you can't tolerate the influence of Beethoven on Brahms anymore, i just took it from there.
BWV 1080 wrote: So you like Webern but not Messiaen or Boulez? What's the difference there?
The first is a genius, the other two are not.

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:16 pm

Opus132 wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote: So you like Webern but not Messiaen or Boulez? What's the difference there?
The first is a genius, the other two are not.
But Carter is.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:53 pm

Count me in! Are we having a meeting? I'll bring the libations.
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Post by RebLem » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:25 pm

Saphire wrote:Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.
Saphire
Hmmmm. I wonder if Chief Justice John Roberts was listening to Beethoven just before his seizure. :lol: :wink:
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Post by slofstra » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:05 pm

After just listening to the 4th symphony, I'm still puzzling over Schumann not being influenced by Beethoven. And isn't saying "Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form) " the same as saying "Schumann (excluding anything that sounds like Beethoven) ". So what does that leave?

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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:36 pm

slofstra wrote:After just listening to the 4th symphony, I'm still puzzling over Schumann not being influenced by Beethoven.
Schumann, who worshiped Beethoven, did not belong on that list. I only did not mention him because the list was so ridiculously riddled with composers who have only more subtle connections with the big B.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Ken » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:22 am

^ I agree, I find that even many of Schumann's more "Romantic" piano works (i.e., Kreisleriana, Papillons, the various Fantasiestücke) somewhat resemble the Bagatelles and Sonatas of mid-late Beethoven.
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:38 am

keninottawa wrote:^ I agree, I find that even many of Schumann's more "Romantic" piano works (i.e., Kreisleriana, Papillons, the various Fantasiestücke) somewhat resemble the Bagatelles and Sonatas of mid-late Beethoven.
Beethoven invented the non-descript character piece, which he called a bagatelle, as well as the art song cycle, of which he wrote the first masterpiece. A couple of other clever guys took it from there.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by BWV 1080 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:20 am

keninottawa wrote:^ I agree, I find that even many of Schumann's more "Romantic" piano works (i.e., Kreisleriana, Papillons, the various Fantasiestücke) somewhat resemble the Bagatelles and Sonatas of mid-late Beethoven.
That is an excellent point. I included Schumann because his character pieces were a major departure from classical forms and aesthetics. Rosen and other do draw sharp destinctions between Schumann's chromaticism (which tends to dissolve classical patterns of tension and release) and Beethoven's where despite the chromaticism he never strays to far from classical norms. The bagatelles are perhaps an exception to this.

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Beethoven remains inescapable

Post by SONNET CLV » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:54 am

Image

Sorry, but Beethoven remains inescapable.

However, if you really want to listen to composers who have not been influenced by the master, turn to any of those who died before, say, 1770.

All the best to you anti-Beethovenians, nonetheless. It's good to know there will be empty seats in Heaven's listening room.

--SONNET CLV (currently listening to Beethoven's Op 89 -- would you believe a Polonaise for piano? written c. 1813, when Chopin was all of three years old! -- performed by Hanae Nakajima on am@ado Vol. 10 from the Beethoven COMPLETE EDITION. Take that you Beethoven haters!) --

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Re: Beethoven remains inescapable

Post by karlhenning » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:59 am

SONNET CLV wrote:Sorry, but Beethoven remains inescapable.
Sorry, but Beethoven's already been escaped, long, long ago.

Cheers,
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Re: Beethoven remains inescapable

Post by Sapphire » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:32 pm

karlhenning wrote:
SONNET CLV wrote:Sorry, but Beethoven remains inescapable.
Sorry, but Beethoven's already been escaped, long, long ago.

Cheers,
~Karl
Probably the very best Beethoven "cure" - for those who think it just gets better and better the more they listen to new works - is Op 91. Shall I tell them what this is, or should they find out themselves unaided, that is the question?


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Re: Beethoven remains inescapable

Post by karlhenning » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:56 pm

Saphire wrote:Probably the very best Beethoven "cure" - for those who think it just gets better and better the more they listen to new works - is Op 91.
Oh! The Shostakovich Opus 91, yes? The Four Monologues on Verses by Pushkin for bass and piano are indeed an excellent curative of Beethovoerhoea :-)

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: Beethoven remains inescapable

Post by Sapphire » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:50 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Saphire wrote:Probably the very best Beethoven "cure" - for those who think it just gets better and better the more they listen to new works - is Op 91.
Oh! The Shostakovich Opus 91, yes? The Four Monologues on Verses by Pushkin for bass and piano are indeed an excellent curative of Beethovoerhoea :-)

Cheers,
~Karl
You never know, they might stumble across Wellington's Victory as well. A really "non-great" work both intrinsically and extrinsically.


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Post by Opus132 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:10 pm

I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?

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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:43 pm

Opus132 wrote:I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?
No, you are not.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Beethoven remains inescapable

Post by Brahms » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:58 pm

Saphire wrote:
You never know, they might stumble across Wellington's Victory as well. A really "non-great" work both intrinsically and extrinsically.

Saphire
What is "intrinsic greatness?"

What is "extrinsic greatness?"

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Post by slofstra » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:10 pm

We are not exactly sure, but by this expression all manners of greatness are covered.

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Post by Sapphire » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:28 am

slofstra wrote:We are not exactly sure, but by this expression all manners of greatness are covered.
Exactly, as if this isn't obvious.


Saphire

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:12 am

BWV 1080 wrote:Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.
Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent.

The big question is, if Schumann is on that list----where are Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner...?!

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Sapphire » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:10 am

Jack Kelso wrote: Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack
Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


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Post by Sapphire » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:21 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Opus132 wrote:I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?
No, you are not.
And more fool to anyone who takes this thread too seriously. As far as I'm concerned, I regard Beethoven as the greatest composer, but it is possible to tire of it, at least temporarily, and it's interesting to consider what attempts were made by other "greats" to break away from the mould.


Saphire

Jack Kelso
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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:28 am

Saphire wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote: Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack
Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire
Schumann doesn't have a "classical period". Except for most of the early piano music, his chamber works are all in classical form, as are his symphonies---albeit the Fourth takes a highly original form, the cyclical basis of it is to be found in Beethoven's Fifth.

The concert overtures "Julius Caesar", "Die Braut von Messina", as well as the overtures to "Faust" and "Genoveva" are basically within the classical mould, with slow intro, development, recapitulation and coda. Only the overture to "Manfred" follows an original course (its form reminds one a bit of Beethoven's "Coriolan" Overture)---but still acceptably "classical" and (after Beethoven's modus) "continuous creation" in form and content.

Best regards,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

Rod Corkin

Post by Rod Corkin » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:32 am

Opus132 wrote:I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?
I love Wellington's Victory! Great entertainment, I wish I could hear/see it live but it must be a nightmare to conduct if you have the two armies of stage and and all the canon and musket effects to think about. Of course in any case the music was originally designed for Maelzel's Panharmonicon machine.

This link on the subject is very good:
http://raptusassociation.org/battle.html

BWV 1080
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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:42 am

Saphire wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Opus132 wrote:I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?
No, you are not.
And more fool to anyone who takes this thread too seriously. As far as I'm concerned, I regard Beethoven as the greatest composer, but it is possible to tire of it, at least temporarily, and it's interesting to consider what attempts were made by other "greats" to break away from the mould.


Saphire
Yep, and Schumann's character pieces did break away from the mold. (but no Romantic composer, with the possible exception of Chopin, was ever out from under Beethoven's shadow)

slofstra
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Post by slofstra » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:43 am

Have you ever seen this web site:

The 111 Most Influential Composers


Now, Beethoven only ranks 6th in influence, and Mozart ranks higher. It must be true, they used a 'statistical' approach. (ref. Disraeli)

(Aside from skepticism at the final compilation, the detailed content of the site is very interesting.)

piston
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Post by piston » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:58 am

Chabrier is often overlooked as an influential composer. Like Chopin, he developed a personal style as far removed from Beethoven as one can imagine during the 19th century. His influence is best understood, not with "great master pieces" but with how his idiom is said to have influenced Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc (who wrote a biography of Chabrier). His own mentors include the Spaniards Zaporta and Pitarch, the Russian Tarnowski, and the Polish Edward Wolff, one of Chopin's friends.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

karlhenning
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:03 am

slofstra wrote:Have you ever seen this web site:

The 111 Most Influential Composers
It's come up in discussion before.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

Ken
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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Ken » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:57 pm

Saphire wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote: Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack
Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire
Ronald Taylor's biography "Schumann: His Life and Work" (I believe it was published in the 1980s) lengthily discusses Schumann's struggle to reconcile the emerging Romantic period with his Classical influences. I think Taylor tends to overplay the anguish that Schumann's "Classicalization" of his own later-period music (particularly his symphonies) caused him, but the biography something to look out for next time you're at your public library.
Du sollst schlechte Compositionen weder spielen, noch, wenn du nicht dazu gezwungen bist, sie anhören.

Sapphire
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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Sapphire » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:23 pm

keninottawa wrote:
Saphire wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote: Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack
Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire
Ronald Taylor's biography "Schumann: His Life and Work" (I believe it was published in the 1980s) lengthily discusses Schumann's struggle to reconcile the emerging Romantic period with his Classical influences. I think Taylor tends to overplay the anguish that Schumann's "Classicalization" of his own later-period music (particularly his symphonies) caused him, but the biography something to look out for next time you're at your public library.
Right. I knew that I have read somehere that Schumann's music became slightly more classical in style after about 1845, starting with Symphony 2, compared with his earlier purer romanticism of his piano solo, song cycles and chamber music output. I must admit that I can't detect any change of great significance.

Saphire

Jack Kelso
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Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:26 am

slofstra wrote:Have you ever seen this web site:

The 111 Most Influential Composers


Now, Beethoven only ranks 6th in influence, and Mozart ranks higher. It must be true, they used a 'statistical' approach. (ref. Disraeli)

(Aside from skepticism at the final compilation, the detailed content of the site is very interesting.)
Yep, 'seen it before. And when I read that Chopin was listed ahead of Schumann, Haydn, Bruckner and Mahler I had a good belly-laugh and shut it off.

One would have to fly to Venus to find a composer after Schumann who didn't show his influence, even slightly. Beethoven, Haydn, Schumann, Bach and Wagner would mirror more the reality of strict influence.

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

Jack Kelso
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Re: Anti-Beethovens

Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:37 am

keninottawa wrote:
Saphire wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote: Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack
Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire
Ronald Taylor's biography "Schumann: His Life and Work" (I believe it was published in the 1980s) lengthily discusses Schumann's struggle to reconcile the emerging Romantic period with his Classical influences. I think Taylor tends to overplay the anguish that Schumann's "Classicalization" of his own later-period music (particularly his symphonies) caused him, but the biography something to look out for next time you're at your public library.
The 2nd Sonata, op. 22, all three string quartets, the Piano Quintet, Piano Quartet, the 3 trios and 3(!) violin sonatas are all after classical models, some using Beethoven's cyclical form. The symphonies (nos. 1 and 2 are the most "classical") depart somewhat from classical design due primarily to the scherzo form A-B-A-C-A, the double-trio, which was Schumann's invention. The idea probably stems from Beethoven's Seventh scherzo (A-B-A-B-A, with a hint of "B" again).

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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