Why is classical music a rare taste?

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The Ninth
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Why is classical music a rare taste?

Post by The Ninth » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:10 pm

Almost nobody my age seems to like it, for example. Even some people who perform in the orchestra at my university seem to have little interest in listening to classical music, and asking them for favorite composers may draw up a blank. It seems like they generally listen to the same bunch of pop as everybody else. Any thoughts on why this is?

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Post by Barry » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:13 pm

Classical music takes more patience and concentration than most people are willing to put forth for entertainment in our modern society where there are so many ways to get immediate or fast gratification. It's a shame, but it's the reality.
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Post by Ralph » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:45 pm

One reason is the near demise of music education programs in public schools. Another is that parents don't take their kids to concerts from an early age.
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Post by Werner » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:10 pm

I agree with both of you. But we seem to see a substantial number of people who come to classical music relatively late, after having tried other types of music. Their exposure does seem to come mainly from listening, rather than having learned to play at an early age.

At best, classical music has always been a language for the few rather than the many.
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The Ninth
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Post by The Ninth » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:12 pm

Werner wrote:I agree with both of you. But we seem to see a substantial number of people who come to classical music relatively late, after having tried other types of music.
I was one of those. Although I do wish someone had given me a decent sampling of what was out there before I took a music history course in college. I think my taste for classical may have developed sooner if somebody had done that. As it is, I went about twenty years with no clue what I was missing.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:51 pm

Everyone has posted sensibly, but Werner is being modest as he was simply born to it, as was I, though the maturity does not come instantly. There is just no figuring some things out. Why do people still major in English instead of settling for Steven King?

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

DavidRoss
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Re: Why is classical music a rare taste?

Post by DavidRoss » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:57 pm

The Ninth wrote:Almost nobody my age seems to like it, for example. Even some people who perform in the orchestra at my university seem to have little interest in listening to classical music, and asking them for favorite composers may draw up a blank. It seems like they generally listen to the same bunch of pop as everybody else. Any thoughts on why this is?
Because they've been dumbed down by public "education" and pop culture designed to keep them complacently ignorant consumer slaves.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Mahler
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Post by Mahler » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:22 pm

The Ninth wrote:Any thoughts on why this is?
I blame it on our society which considers banality a virtue and preaches simplicity above everything else. Things have to be fast, easy, shallow and short-lived in order to attract the masses who consume and dump new developments as quickly as they came. The desire to listen to hours of uninterrupted, free-flowing music is contrary to this popular mainstream.
"Auch das Schöne muss sterben."

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Post by Harold Tucker » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:45 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Everyone has posted sensibly, but Werner is being modest as he was simply born to it, as was I, though the maturity does not come instantly. There is just no figuring some things out. Why do people still major in English instead of settling for Steven King?
Because some of decided a long time ago that we didn't like books in which men ate rats and rats ate men. I read "The Stand" years ago while laid up with a rectal abcess. I couldn't decide whether that affliction or the book was the greater pain in the posterior.

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Re: Why is classical music a rare taste?

Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:20 am

The Ninth wrote:Any thoughts on why this is?
2:
1) Herd mentality
2) Lack of exposure
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Mahler
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Post by Mahler » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:37 am

Corlyss_D wrote:2) Lack of exposure
I do not think so. Classical music is not hard to find for those who seek it. Most people know about it; they just are not interested. It all comes down to an inner urge only classical music can satisfy, but this urge is no longer common; it has been replaced by a lust for distraction and swift entertainment.
"Auch das Schöne muss sterben."

absinthe
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Re: Why is classical music a rare taste?

Post by absinthe » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:19 am

DavidRoss wrote: Because they've been dumbed down by public "education" and pop culture designed to keep them complacently ignorant consumer slaves.
So very true. The marketeers know that they aren't selling just music to the pop culture - they're selling a lifestyle that includes fashions, alcopops, magazines, prescribed tastes, glamour and on.
There were moves to market classical music in the same way to presumably create a new target market - the vanessa maes, lesley garrett and people. Whether the aim was to introduce classical music to a wider group of young by way of apparent glamour I don't know. It doesn't appear to have worked any more than signature tunes on TV with people meandering around humming bits from Lakme or Barber's Adagio.

In the UK, music has been stripped from primary and secondary education almost completely. I was one of the last who benefitted by music education in secondary - even singing during the first year which did help people to understand some of how music actually worked.

No doubt things will swing the opposite way in due time, (Borrowed from another thread: Naxos has done a huge amount to disseminate music to a wider public.)

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Post by Ken » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:33 am

I came to classical music 'late', after having listened to various forms of pop music (which, I should note, I do still indulge in ;) ). I attribute this to having grown up in a family that wasn't the least bit musical; I don't think my parents own one classical album between them.

I do know many people who grew up in families with parents who were both musical and as a result have an appreciation for and a knowledge of the music. I truly think that this early start in life (whether forced or voluntary) helps younger people to become interested in classical music.
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Post by RebLem » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:37 am

I think Barry and Ralph are closest to the mark here. In an age when the average male's attention span is conditioned by the amount of time it takes to run an NFL play (usually about 25 seconds, tops), few people can pay attention long enough. Just try to explain a complicated political point or social policy to any American these days. After about 20 seconds, they start to get antsy, and if you take 45, they walk away or interrupt. Some ideas take longer than that to explain. Why do you think People is far more popular that The Economist? People complain about the dumbing down of news, but a magazine with a popular type of magazine format that doesn't dumb it down has very few subscribers.

Another reason is because women run the household. And most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics. They don't like speaker wire and all kinds of wires connecting components running all around the place. And if you insist on taking the grille off the speakers so it doesn't muffle the sound, you will hear noises coming from them that sound like a Schoenberg work and an Ives piece playing simultaneously. And, if you play them at anything like the concert hall volume you need to really enjoy it, well, the kids need to do their homework, and its distracting them.

Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:56 am

Harold Tucker wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Everyone has posted sensibly, but Werner is being modest as he was simply born to it, as was I, though the maturity does not come instantly. There is just no figuring some things out. Why do people still major in English instead of settling for Steven King?
Because some of decided a long time ago that we didn't like books in which men ate rats and rats ate men. I read "The Stand" years ago while laid up with a rectal abcess. I couldn't decide whether that affliction or the book was the greater pain in the posterior.
J.K. Rowling might have been a better example. In an idle moment substituting for the librarian at a local school I finally picked up one of the Harry Potter books (The Order of the Phoenix) and it is truly dreadful, not even fit as kid lit. (It happens to be the one movie that I saw and while that was mediocre too, they cleaned up an awful lot from the book.)

Harold Bloom, who is of course an extreme example of the opposite type of reader, once wrote, "To read Stephen King is not to read; to read Harry Potter is not to read."

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:12 am

RebLem wrote:Another reason is because women run the household. And most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics. They don't like speaker wire and all kinds of wires connecting components running all around the place. And if you insist on taking the grille off the speakers so it doesn't muffle the sound, you will hear noises coming from them that sound like a Schoenberg work and an Ives piece playing simultaneously. And, if you play them at anything like the concert hall volume you need to really enjoy it, well, the kids need to do their homework, and its distracting them.

Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
This is not the truth and it has nothing to do with PC...or with classical music. Worse than just wrong, your comments here are stupid, sexist, and offensive.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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jbuck919
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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:20 am

The situation may be even worse than we imagine. It has always been the case that some people patronize classical music as a matter of fashion and image. I've told this before, but it was a long time ago. At the last (excellent) concert I attended in Baltimore, one of the pieces was the Beethoven Triple Concerto. I overheard one woman remark: "That was nice but if only he hadn't repeated that theme so many times."

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:49 am

jbuck919 wrote:J.K. Rowling might have been a better example. In an idle moment substituting for the librarian at a local school I finally picked up one of the Harry Potter books (The Order of the Phoenix) and it is truly dreadful, not even fit as kid lit. (It happens to be the one movie that I saw and while that was mediocre too, they cleaned up an awful lot from the book.)

Harold Bloom, who is of course an extreme example of the opposite type of reader, once wrote, "To read Stephen King is not to read; to read Harry Potter is not to read."
Pompous idiocy. When you look down your nose at everything, you're condemned to short-sightedness.

J.K. Rowling's books have probably done more to encourage the iPod generation to read than all of PBS's efforts combined. How many of our generation got turned on to reading by the Hardy Boys, Tom Swift, Nancy Drew, etc.? Hardly great literature, but encouraging reading while promoting decent values seems a worthwhile endeavor.

Of course, the villains in Rowling's books are sneering, smug, self-glorifying cretins who regard themselves as innately superior to anyone without their breeding and background. Too close for comfort, perhaps?
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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absinthe
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Post by absinthe » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:55 am

DavidRoss wrote:
RebLem wrote:Another reason is because women run the household. And most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics. They don't like speaker wire and all kinds of wires connecting components running all around the place. And if you insist on taking the grille off the speakers so it doesn't muffle the sound, you will hear noises coming from them that sound like a Schoenberg work and an Ives piece playing simultaneously. And, if you play them at anything like the concert hall volume you need to really enjoy it, well, the kids need to do their homework, and its distracting them.

Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
This is not the truth and it has nothing to do with PC...or with classical music. Worse than just wrong, your comments here are stupid, sexist, and offensive.
Well... some households are like that and what's wrong in commenting thus? How can such a situation be the three adjectives you use? Households are, and no doubt each will offend various others. If others' style of household offend one easily, one should not visit other people's homes.

The Ninth
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Post by The Ninth » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:58 am

jbuck919 wrote:I overheard one woman remark: "That was nice but if only he hadn't repeated that theme so many times."
Heh. The funny thing is that non-classical music, at least the more popular stuff, tends to be far more repetitive.

absinthe
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Post by absinthe » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:00 am

And what's so reassuring about this thread is I learn that my regard for JK Rowling is shared. I found her writing style so tedious and put her success down to promotion rather than literary skill.

The Ninth
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Post by The Ninth » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:00 am

DavidRoss wrote:J.K. Rowling's books have probably done more to encourage the iPod generation to read than all of PBS's efforts combined.
Ah, but what will they read now that the Harry Potter series has ended?

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Post by absinthe » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:03 am

You got me there! Perhaps it did serve the purpose of keeping otherwise-mischief-makers off the streets.

:)

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Post by keaggy220 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:33 am

RebLem wrote:Another reason is because women run the household. And most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics. They don't like speaker wire and all kinds of wires connecting components running all around the place. And if you insist on taking the grille off the speakers so it doesn't muffle the sound, you will hear noises coming from them that sound like a Schoenberg work and an Ives piece playing simultaneously. And, if you play them at anything like the concert hall volume you need to really enjoy it, well, the kids need to do their homework, and its distracting them.

Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
DavidRoss wrote:This is not the truth and it has nothing to do with PC...or with classical music. Worse than just wrong, your comments here are stupid, sexist, and offensive.
We do know that more men enjoy classical than women.

My wife told me a while back that if she hears anymore classical on our stereo then she will start playing Elton John. I bought an iPod and a really expensive set of headphones.

More women do run households now than say, 50 years ago. We know this simply because of the divorce rate - so if more women are running households and more men listen to classical music then RebLem might have a point that should be considered.

I think ideas on this forum (even controversial ones that on the surface seem racist, sexist - or whatever the current PC hot button is today) deserve more thought before we proudly display ourselves to be card carrying self-loathing white guys who are always looking for a way to prove that we are so hip that we quickly come to the aid of "protected" classes without a moments thought....

The Ninth
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Post by The Ninth » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:49 am

keaggy220 wrote:We do know that more men enjoy classical than women.
We do? I would be interested in some data on this.

And if that is true, why is it?

absinthe
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Post by absinthe » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:52 am

Hmm...there are times I enjoy women more than classical.

.

keaggy220
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Post by keaggy220 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:57 am

absinthe wrote:Hmm...there are times I enjoy women more than classical.

.
it seems you are not dedicated enough to classical! :lol: Good one!

I throw a lot of softballs so keep an eye on me.

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Post by keaggy220 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:01 am

keaggy220 wrote:We do know that more men enjoy classical than women.
The Ninth wrote:We do? I would be interested in some data on this.
You're funny. http://www.classicalarchives.com/demographics.html
The Ninth wrote:And if that is true, why is it?
I dunno, ask RebLem - he seems to like taking abuse on subjects like this... :D

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Post by arglebargle » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:07 am

Perhaps classical music is a rare taste because it takes rare talent to make it happen and rare talent is not what most folks find compelling these days. What they find far more compelling is themselves, their own abilities, and maybe those of people whom they know personally. In other words, perhaps we've all become teenagers culturally speaking.

Consider egalitarianism and cultural relativism. We want to believe the alcoholic on the street corner with a guitar and hat on the ground to collect spare change is producing as equally valid a cultural experience for his audience as the person who spends years in formal study and practice. We raise up the one and so necessarily diminish the other. Witness the rise of utube, everyone's now a producer of fine entertainment content; or of blogging, everyone's now a qualified journalist; consider American Idol, we love to believe everyone, including ourselves of course, to be potential world-beating performers. Well, for 15 seconds anyway.

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Post by The Ninth » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:13 am

Wow.

I wasn't trying to be facetious, by the way: I really didn't know.

DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:27 am

absinthe wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:
RebLem wrote:Another reason is because women run the household. And most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics. They don't like speaker wire and all kinds of wires connecting components running all around the place. And if you insist on taking the grille off the speakers so it doesn't muffle the sound, you will hear noises coming from them that sound like a Schoenberg work and an Ives piece playing simultaneously. And, if you play them at anything like the concert hall volume you need to really enjoy it, well, the kids need to do their homework, and its distracting them.

Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
This is not the truth and it has nothing to do with PC...or with classical music. Worse than just wrong, your comments here are stupid, sexist, and offensive.
Well... some households are like that and what's wrong in commenting thus? How can such a situation be the three adjectives you use? Households are, and no doubt each will offend various others. If others' style of household offend one easily, one should not visit other people's homes.
What's wrong with the comment?

(1) It's false--wrong. No doubt there are some households run by women. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the failure of the young to appreciate classical music. In fact, in my experience (sufficiently limited that I don't presume to generalize from it), women have been more likely to promote their children's interest in higher culture than men.

(2) It's stupid. Every single statement is baseless generalization that flies in the face of fact and has nothing whatever to do with the issue this diatribe purposts to address. "...most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics." WTF? He makes this crap up out of whole cloth. Actually, it is men whose orientation to the world is more visual and women who are more aural. Then he follows this bizarre statement with support that contradicts it, claiming that women's objection to hi fi is on visual grounds--the sight of wires or speakers without grilles. And furthermore, he's shifted the issue from classical music appreciation to hi fi, as if they were congruous.

(3) It's sexist. He makes sweeping generalizations based on gender.

(4) It's offensive. Based on these false, stupid, sexist assertions, he blames women for youth's disinterest in classical music.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:39 am

This tells us nothing about the relationship between gender and classical music appreciation. It tells us only that roughly 71% of the subscribers to that site identify themselves as male and 25% as female.

Actually, given the disparities between genders in internet usage, I would think these numbers tend to indicate greater, not lesser, interest in classical music by women. However, the sample is so small, selective, unreliable, and influenced by other considerations that it offers no support for generalizations of any kind.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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The Ninth
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Post by The Ninth » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:53 am

There isn't really much of a gender disparity in Internet usage anymore. This article, for examples gives only a two percent difference.

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Post by keaggy220 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:59 am

DavidRoss wrote:
This tells us nothing about the relationship between gender and classical music appreciation. It tells us only that roughly 71% of the subscribers to that site identify themselves as male and 25% as female.

Actually, given the disparities between genders in internet usage, I would think these numbers tend to indicate greater, not lesser, interest in classical music by women. However, the sample is so small, selective, unreliable, and influenced by other considerations that it offers no support for generalizations of any kind.
Now you're the one being sexiest! :lol:

http://www.pewinternet.org/trends/User_Demo_4.26.06.htm

I guess I could never convince you that more women watch Oprah than men either! Oh well, I don't understand your thinking and I'm sure it's no use to try and convince you otherwise.

Here's a good story about a my neighbor breaking through the blindness of PC.

My next door neighbor told me a few months ago that countless "gender training's" at work had convinced (brainwashed?) him into absoultely believing there are no differences between men and women. This guy actually was blushing when he told me that now that he has a young son of his own he looks back at those trainings as rubbish - although he contiues the farce at work.

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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:08 pm

The Ninth wrote:There isn't really much of a gender disparity in Internet usage anymore. This article, for examples gives only a two percent difference.
Keep reading that same article. It says there's only a two percent difference in the percentage of men and percentage of women who use the web, but there is still considerable disparity in how much they use it and what they use it for. For instance:
In some cases, the findings aren't any different than similar studies conducted by Pew over the years. Men tend to use the Web for information and entertainment -- getting sports scores and stock quotes and downloading music -- while women tend to be heavier users of mapping and direction services, and communication services such as e-mail.

...A separate survey released earlier this week seemed to underscore some of the findings of the Pew report. Of those who listen to podcasts, or streaming audio segments distributed over the Internet, 78 percent are men and 22 percent are women....
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:18 pm

keaggy220 wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:
This tells us nothing about the relationship between gender and classical music appreciation. It tells us only that roughly 71% of the subscribers to that site identify themselves as male and 25% as female.

Actually, given the disparities between genders in internet usage, I would think these numbers tend to indicate greater, not lesser, interest in classical music by women. However, the sample is so small, selective, unreliable, and influenced by other considerations that it offers no support for generalizations of any kind.
Now you're the one being sexiest! :lol:

http://www.pewinternet.org/trends/User_Demo_4.26.06.htm

I guess I could never convince you that more women watch Oprah than men either! Oh well, I don't understand your thinking and I'm sure it's no use to try and convince you otherwise.

Here's a good story about a my neighbor breaking through the blindness of PC.

My next door neighbor told me a few months ago that countless "gender training's" at work had convinced (brainwashed?) him into absoultely believing there are no differences between men and women. This guy actually was blushing when he told me that now that he has a young son of his own he looks back at those trainings as rubbish - although he contiues the farce at work.
Sexist? How so? To recognize the differences that do exist between genders is not sexist--but to invent ones that don't or to deny ones that do on the basis of unsupported stereotyping certainly is.

In answer to your intention in posting the link, see my response to The Ninth, above. Same issue, same incomplete data, same effort to "prove" you're right rather than to discover the truth.

As for the rest of your comments, about Oprah and gender training, they are completely irrelevant to this discussion. I understand that you intend them as some sort of rebuttal to my viewpoint. Do you understand that they have nothing to do with my point of view, but address only something you've mistakenly read into my statements?
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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keaggy220
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Post by keaggy220 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:43 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:
This tells us nothing about the relationship between gender and classical music appreciation. It tells us only that roughly 71% of the subscribers to that site identify themselves as male and 25% as female.

Actually, given the disparities between genders in internet usage, I would think these numbers tend to indicate greater, not lesser, interest in classical music by women. However, the sample is so small, selective, unreliable, and influenced by other considerations that it offers no support for generalizations of any kind.
Now you're the one being sexiest! :lol:

http://www.pewinternet.org/trends/User_Demo_4.26.06.htm

I guess I could never convince you that more women watch Oprah than men either! Oh well, I don't understand your thinking and I'm sure it's no use to try and convince you otherwise.

Here's a good story about a my neighbor breaking through the blindness of PC.

My next door neighbor told me a few months ago that countless "gender training's" at work had convinced (brainwashed?) him into absolutely believing there are no differences between men and women. This guy actually was blushing when he told me that now that he has a young son of his own he looks back at those training's as rubbish - although he continues the farce at work.
Sexist? How so? To recognize the differences that do exist between genders is not sexist--but to invent ones that don't or to deny ones that do on the basis of unsupported stereotyping certainly is.

In answer to your intention in posting the link, see my response to The Ninth, above. Same issue, same incomplete data, same effort to "prove" you're right rather than to discover the truth.

As for the rest of your comments, about Oprah and gender training, they are completely irrelevant to this discussion. I understand that you intend them as some sort of rebuttal to my viewpoint. Do you understand that they have nothing to do with my point of view, but address only something you've mistakenly read into my statements?
You say I don't understand, but you called a person on this forum sexist (with other nastiness) because he had the nerve to say that one reason young people might not like classical music as much is because women are running more households.

I simply stated that, for the most part, women don't like classical music as much as men and that more women run households now than ever. So why do you discount his logic immediately? For some reason you seem to think generalizations are immediately evil and should be denounced. Yes, generalizations are used incorrectly most of the time, but not all of the time.

I simply used the generalization about Oprah to prove that some generalization are not evil, but, in fact true. I used the gender training example because it seems you may be under the influence of such garbage.

Like I said it's evident that no amount of data or published statistics will change your mind, and to tell you the truth it really doesn't matter to me...

DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:05 pm

keaggy220 wrote:You say I don't understand, but you called a person on this forum sexist (with other nastiness) because he had the nerve to say that one reason young people might not like classical music as much is because women are running more households.
No, I called his comments sexist because they were, and blatantly so. And I made no nasty comments. I called his comments stupid, sexist, and offensive, which they patently were, and then explained why for one participant who didn't understand. Anyone can read the post above to see for himself. The real nastiness I see is the self-righteous hypocrisy of some characters around here--like RebLem--who frequently assault others while asserting the moral superiority of their own ill-considered opinions, all the while blind to their own grotesque and glaring shortcomings.
keaggy220 wrote:I simply stated that, for the most part, women don't like classical music as much as men and that more women run households now than ever. So why do you discount his logic immediately? For some reason you seem to think generalizations are immediately evil and should be denounced. Yes, generalizations are used incorrectly most of the time, but not all of the time.

I simply used the generalization about Oprah to prove that some generalization are not evil, but, in fact true. I used the gender training example because it seems you may be under the influence of such garbage.

Like I said it's evident that no amount of data or published statistics will change your mind, and to tell you the truth it really doesn't matter to me...
You were asked to support the claim in bold above. You offered statistics that do not support it. I pointed out the failure. As for the rest of this passage, again it addresses only the prejudices you've projected onto my statements and not the statements themselves nor any attitudes I hold or have expressed.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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absinthe
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Post by absinthe » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:18 pm

DavidRoss wrote: (3) It's sexist. He makes sweeping generalizations based on gender.
Some sweeping generalizations seem ok. I've learned from practical experience that women differ from men in various functional and biological ways - a generalization but pragmatic fact. It is possible that other differences extend from these. But as a generalization, I think people ought to be allowed to voice their views, especially here where women were by no means being trashed. Don't watch TV. You'll see an alarming amount of sexist innuendo in the ads.

(4) It's offensive. Based on these false, stupid, sexist assertions, he blames women for youth's disinterest in classical music.
It's a nice touch, always using a trio of adjectives. I have a friend like this who uses verbs the same way. If he dislikes something, he hates, loathes and detests it.

.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:22 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Of course, the villains in Rowling's books are sneering, smug, self-glorifying cretins who regard themselves as innately superior to anyone without their breeding and background. Too close for comfort, perhaps?
Example: In the movie, after Harry vanquishes two whatchamacallits, a woman who is definitely not a villain walks by and says "don't put your wand away, Harry; they might come back." In the book she says something like "Don't put your wand away, you stupid, silly, senseless boy."

Now who does that remind us of?

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:49 pm

absinthe wrote:
DavidRoss wrote: (3) It's sexist. He makes sweeping generalizations based on gender.
Some sweeping generalizations seem ok. I've learned from practical experience that women differ from men in various functional and biological ways - a generalization but pragmatic fact. It is possible that other differences extend from these. But as a generalization, I think people ought to be allowed to voice their views, especially here where women were by no means being trashed. Don't watch TV. You'll see an alarming amount of sexist innuendo in the ads.
You're right. I should have said, "He makes sweeping generalizations based on gender stereotypes." However I suggest you reread his comments if you don't think women were being trashed.
absinthe wrote:
DavidRoss wrote: (4) It's offensive. Based on these false, stupid, sexist assertions, he blames women for youth's disinterest in classical music.
It's a nice touch, always using a trio of adjectives. I have a friend like this who uses verbs the same way. If he dislikes something, he hates, loathes and detests it.
I think you're trying to suggest something unkind that misses the mark. Restored to context, "false, stupid, sexist" sums up the three previous points you had asked me to address. It is a rhetorical device, but not the one you suggest.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Sapphire
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Post by Sapphire » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:02 pm

What a crazy discussion.

Classical Music has always been a rare taste. It appeals mainly to an elitist minority, whether that elitism is routed in social class or intellect.

I would guess that interest in classical music is becoming a rarer taste as the decades go by. However, I doubt that this has much to do with lack of education, as that is more probably a result of the declining demand rather than a cause of it. Nor do I see that the increasing importance of women in running households - and their assumed dislike of unsightly hi-fi cables and speakers bereft of covers - has anything but possibly the slightest effect on this phenomenon. The reason is simply that it is in competition with many other pastime opportunities, coupled with the fact that people simply don't like it enough in comparison with other forms of entertainment or enjoyment.

As for the discussion about the validity of the sample evidence suggesting that more men than women prefer classical music, the main weakness is the self-selecting nature of the sample, and is thus quite useless as no reputable statistician would draw such inferences from it.


Sapphire

keaggy220
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Post by keaggy220 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:03 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:You say I don't understand, but you called a person on this forum sexist (with other nastiness) because he had the nerve to say that one reason young people might not like classical music as much is because women are running more households.
No, I called his comments sexist because they were, and blatantly so. And I made no nasty comments. I called his comments stupid, sexist, and offensive, which they patently were, and then explained why for one participant who didn't understand. Anyone can read the post above to see for himself. The real nastiness I see is the self-righteous hypocrisy of some characters around here--like RebLem--who frequently assault others while asserting the moral superiority of their own ill-considered opinions, all the while blind to their own grotesque and glaring shortcomings.
keaggy220 wrote:I simply stated that, for the most part, women don't like classical music as much as men and that more women run households now than ever. So why do you discount his logic immediately? For some reason you seem to think generalizations are immediately evil and should be denounced. Yes, generalizations are used incorrectly most of the time, but not all of the time.

I simply used the generalization about Oprah to prove that some generalization are not evil, but, in fact true. I used the gender training example because it seems you may be under the influence of such garbage.

Like I said it's evident that no amount of data or published statistics will change your mind, and to tell you the truth it really doesn't matter to me...
You were asked to support the claim in bold above. You offered statistics that do not support it. I pointed out the failure. As for the rest of this passage, again it addresses only the prejudices you've projected onto my statements and not the statements themselves nor any attitudes I hold or have expressed.
I stand corrected you did point your nastiness at his comments and not at him and that is a big difference - although I'm not sure if it is a big difference in this case.

You don't believe the published statistics by the PEW organization regarding internet usage or the classical music demographic I provided regarding male/female listeners. I give up - I can't prove it to you.

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Post by RebLem » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:28 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
RebLem wrote:Another reason is because women run the household. And most women are far more interested in visual aesthetics than in aural aesthetics. They don't like speaker wire and all kinds of wires connecting components running all around the place. And if you insist on taking the grille off the speakers so it doesn't muffle the sound, you will hear noises coming from them that sound like a Schoenberg work and an Ives piece playing simultaneously. And, if you play them at anything like the concert hall volume you need to really enjoy it, well, the kids need to do their homework, and its distracting them.

Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
This is not the truth and it has nothing to do with PC...or with classical music. Worse than just wrong, your comments here are stupid, sexist, and offensive.
Yup, that's me ! :D

What I want to know is, who made you write that?
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:37 pm

keaggy220 wrote:You don't believe the published statistics by the PEW organization regarding internet usage or the classical music demographic I provided regarding male/female listeners. I give up - I can't prove it to you.
Consider it again.

(1) I've no reason to doubt the PEW stats you linked to and don't dispute them. But they tell us only that 74% of men use the internet and 71% of women. That alone says nothing whatsoever about the disparities in frequency or types of use. However the complete PEW report does address some disparities. For instance: "Men are more likely than women to participate in a big variety of interest groups, like fan clubs or community groups."

(2) As previously stated, the classical music demographic you provided only states the relative percentage of subscribers to that particular service who identified themselves by gender. To think that this provides any--let alone definitive--support for your broad claim that men appreciate classical music more than women suggests that your education lacked training in logic.

I don't know whether more men than women enjoy classical music. I know only that so far those here who've made that claim have failed to offer any support for it. However, out of curiosity I just googled the topic and the first hit was a New York Times article titled, For Musical Appreciation, Sexes Go Their Own Ways, and claiming that "About 16 percent of all men and 20 percent of all women polled said they liked classical music 'very much,' about 25 percent more women than men." The article is an interesting read which may broaden your perspective on the issue. However, anyone determined to prevent facts from interfering with his prejudices should probably stay away.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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RebLem
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Post by RebLem » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:37 pm

The Ninth wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:We do know that more men enjoy classical than women.
We do? I would be interested in some data on this.

And if that is true, why is it?
Actually, I am not sure that is true. Women often drag men along to concerts. However, I'm not sure that women always do it for the music, though. It often has more to do with status, and social climbing. Men, on the other hand, are slobs. We don't want to dress up for anything except work (and really not then, either, but we accept the fact that its expected and, unfortunately, unavoidable), and when there is an immediate prospect of making some money from the enterprise. Most men, unlike women, are not willing to invest in what grifters call "the long con."

Most men who like classical music want to listen at home, where they don't have to dress up and where they can fart without fear.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:49 pm

RebLem wrote:Most men, unlike women, are not willing to invest in what grifters call "the long con."
:shock:
RebLem wrote:Most men who like classical music want to listen at home, where they don't have to dress up and where they can fart without fear.

:lol:
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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jbuck919
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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:56 pm

RebLem wrote:
The Ninth wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:We do know that more men enjoy classical than women.
We do? I would be interested in some data on this.

And if that is true, why is it?
Actually, I am not sure that is true. Women often drag men along to concerts. However, I'm not sure that women always do it for the music, though. It often has more to do with status, and social climbing. Men, on the other hand, are slobs. We don't want to dress up for anything except work (and really not then, either, but we accept the fact that its expected and, unfortunately, unavoidable), and when there is an immediate prospect of making some money from the enterprise. Most men, unlike women, are not willing to invest in what grifters call "the long con."

Most men who like classical music want to listen at home, where they don't have to dress up and where they can fart without fear.
Ever hear of Pat Sajak and Vanna White? She wears a different dress every night, but he does not wear a different suit (he does change his tie every time). Oddly, a man who did change his outfit every night when he was on the air was Merv Griffin, the producer of that show. In general, women are more careful about their appearance, but then, they have more to be careful about.

This discussion has gotten a little silly because I think we all know that Rob was being a bit tongue-in-cheek (he has too much taste to be seriously disparaging in this matter). It may or may not be that his own wife is something of a "classical music widow," but I don't see any serious sexism here. Even back in the 18th century, Bach married two women partly because they had a relatively high degree of musicality.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:09 pm

Concluding his diatribe with:
RebLem wrote:Yeah, its not politically correct, I know. But its the truth.
suggests it not be taken with a grain of salt.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:28 pm

Mahler wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:2) Lack of exposure
I do not think so. Classical music is not hard to find for those who seek it.
I don't know where you live, but I'll bet there's little else but rock and talk on the radio stations where you live. Most kids get their music from the radio. If you aren't exposed to classical in your environment, you don't develop an interest in it.
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