"The End of Music CDs?"

[Ralph]

SciTechBlog
September 25, 2008
The end of music CDs?
Posted: 11:42 AM ET

How I remember those days of vinyl records, 8-track tapes, cassettes, and CDs. Yes, I said CDs. Their days could be numbered as a new music format is about to burst onto the scene. Slot Music, a micro SD card that is about the size of a fingernail, has been developed by SanDisk. Each SD card will hold an album’s worth of music, album cover art, liner notes, and will have extra space for personal files and photos. All songs will be free of copy protection as well.


A slot music memory chip is smaller than the size of a postage stamp. (From Sandisk)

So far four music companies — Universal, Sony, Warner, and EMI –are on board as they hope to add another revenue stream to their bottom line. CD sales dropped 19 percent last year.

Best Buy and Wal-Mart are just two of the big retailers that will carry Slot Music. The new format is expected to be out before the holiday shopping season. Twenty-nine different albums ranging from Usher, Weezer, Akon, and even Elvis will be available at launch.

Micro SD cards can be played in many cell phones and MP3 players. Each album will come with a USB device so you can access the album on your computer. All we need now is a Micro SD player for our cars.

Is this the end for CDs or will Slot Music become just a short fad?

Christopher Piatt CNN Science and Tech

[Lance]

I seriously doubt that this will be the end of CDs as a music carrier. Of all the formats that have been ever issued from cylinders to 78s to LPs to reel-to-reel to cassettes and eight-track tapes, the CD is the most convenient and most appreciated (no snap, crackel and pop, plus convenient tracking) format to date. Think of all the LP/CD collectors across the world aged 70 and under. This will not be an easy transition for them, and I have no intention of personally going that route. I can't imagine, for example, that all of the British label Pearl would commit to the San-Disk micro-format all those historical performances, nor EMI, nor anybody else — not their classical catalogues. Maybe this will be the new carrier for newly issued popular/jazz/rock/and whatever, but I don't think this is the format for the serious classical music collector.

[Brendan]

The sound quality is simply not there for Classical music (last time I checked, which may be some time ago now) on most MP3 players. CDs are barely adequate (anyone with SACD knows what I mean) as they are: I can't imagine the "sound-smearing" that would occur for the Mass in B minor on such a device, and have no desire to find out.

I thought Blu-ray audio was to be the "next big thing."

[Lance]

Brendan:

Do you think the LP had better sound quality than a regular CD of classical music? [Many people still believe that!] I have not been into collecting SACDs (I have quite a few but play them on a normal CD player), and it looks like the market did not buy them as a "takeover" for normal CDs in general. RCA, for example, doesn't seem to be issuing SACDs in any great quantity these days, and many they had issued have been withdrawn from the catalogue. I know that when I record a concert digitially and transfer it to a standard CD, the sound quality is every bit as good as my original digital recording. I have been personally very happy with normal CDs for classical music, and especially in broadcasting, it's a sheer delight not to have the flaws of LPs showing up.

The sound quality is simply not there for Classical music (last time I checked, which may be some time ago now) on most MP3 players. CDs are barely adequate (anyone with SACD knows what I mean) as they are: I can't imagine the "sound-smearing" that would occur for the Mass in B minor on such a device, and have no desire to find out.

I thought Blu-ray audio was to be the "next big thing."

[hangos]

I agree, Lance - and besides, they are so small that they will be the sonic equivalent of contact lenses - soooooo easy to lose! Will they be fitted with a tracking device so that their owner can bleep them back in from under the sofa or under the carpet?
I'm no technophobe - I have a Sony mp4 player which I enjoy using - but this is miniaturisation gone mad!
Martin

[Jack Kelso]

These companies can do whatever they like---as long as they don't monopolize the recording industry as CDs have, although I enjoy them very much. But I still love the sound I get from my cassette tapes as well. I'm tempted to buy another cassette player before the market shuts them out completely, forcing us once again to revamp the most important part of any stereo system:

THE MUSIC COLLECTION.

Tschüß!
Jack

[Ken]

The CD won't die if I've anything to say about it... I've (hopefully) still five-odd decades of potential record buying ahead of me, and at the pace I'm buying records at now...

[barney]

Completely agree. I am utterly committed to CDs now, and only the departure of CD technology will change that. And I can't see tht happening in a hurry.

[DavidRoss]

Since the CD is just a storage medium for digital files, and a rather awkward one, at that, requiring optical scanning, it's probably doomed. The SanDisk micro SD is just a marketing gimmick, since their Sansa players have a micro SD slot, but since the next step--direct digital downloads--is already thriving, I doubt there's any compelling reason for it to get much traction in the marketplace. But with four of the five major record companies on board, it will take off if they promote it.

As for sound quality, Brendan, you're probably aware that the storage medium should have no effect on the 1s and 0s. Given the same digital-to-analog convertor and playback equipment, there will be no difference in sound quality between a file stored in flash memory and a file stored on optical disc (unless the optical reader induces jitter or other errors). SanDisk currently makes micro SD cards with 8 GB of storage--plenty even for "high resolution" digital music files like SACD...not that Sony, et al, are any more likely to support that on solid state memory devices than they have on optical discs. The overwhelming majority of music buyers don't care about sound quality--witness the progressive deterioration of quality from vinyl to CD to iTunes's 128kbps lossy files.

[Fretless]

The overwhelming majority of music buyers don't care about sound quality--witness the progressive deterioration of quality from vinyl to CD to iTunes's 128kbps lossy files.

*shiver*

[maestrob]

Ralph/Lance:

Frankly, I have no doubt as to the survival of the CD format, for all the reasons you stated: convenience, noise-free, potential sound quality, etc. The CEO of a major independent label recently confided to BBC Magazine that, in spite of having his entire stock online available for download, barely 5% of the company's earnings come from download sales, and regular sales are holding steady.

From that, I get that sales of pop & jazz cds may be on the wane, but classical buyers are like buyers of hardcover books: we demand quality, including artwork and a stable, long-lasting medium.

It's an investment, IOW.

[Wallingford]

"The end of CDs"? Leave us hope not. Between my CD and DVD recorders, I'm preserving enough of my desert-island faves (as well as some not-so-great stuff) to see me through my old age & beyond, stuff that I can play on just one player if my living quarters dictate so.

[SONNET CLV]

Ralph/Lance:

... I get that sales of pop & jazz cds may be on the wane, but classical buyers are like buyers of hardcover books: we demand quality, including artwork and a stable, long-lasting medium.

I would guess that the drop in CD sales derives mostly from the younger set, the "rockers" downloading their music. We old geezers don't do that as much. I certainly don't, as my overstuffed record shelves in the ol' cabin reveal. (To date I've never downloaded a single note, and I have no current plans to begin.)

CDs are here to stay for a while, I suspect, because of the "classical" crowd. (I still purchase LPs!) Maybe it's the very lastingness of certain musics that allows such pieces to be recorded on more permanent media. Let the triviality of "top-ten current hits" ride over the cyberwaves into well-deserved early demise. No one will much care in a year or two. But Mozart and the band are here to stay.

--SONNET CLV--

[JackC]

I have thousands of LPs, thousands of CDs and over 500 SACDs. I have a high quality audio system with a top quality turntable and cartridge, a Sony SCD-1 SACD player and a separate 192 - upsampling DAC.

This is just me, but I have to say that for pure pleasure of sound, I prefer generally LPs over SACDs and prefer SACDs over CDs. For some reason, LPs just sound a bit more natural to me and are easier on my ears. I can listen to LPs longer and enjoy the pure sound, more than SACDs or CDs. Of course, some LPs are so badly pressed and/or have other damage that they can't really be claimed to be considered as contenders for best quality. But my ears, for some reason, forgive and occassional tick or pop and I can live with the no problem.

Last night, for example, I just stated playing cantata after cantata from my set of Telefunken LPs of the Bach cantatas (with Harnoncourt and Leonhardt) I could have listened all night. With SACDs and more so with CDs, there is a point were I get fatigued and have to stop.

I prefer SACDs over CD. They too are easier on my ears than CDs, and some can come close to my best sounding LPs. But the differences between SACDs and CDs can be subtle and I fuly understand why SACDs would not "replace" CDs, and why they have generally no done that well in the marketplace.

This is a purely personal preference, and I can't and won't opine on what medium is "best". I learned a long time again that when it comes to audio, you can and should listen to top quality equipment etc, but in the end you have to buy what sounds best to YOU.

[Lance]

Good points, Jac. I still listen to some 78-rpm discs with awe. Of course, it is always the MUSIC for me, despite the sound carrier. The YOU of your sentence is right on!

{snipped} This is a purely personal preference, and I can't and won't opine on what medium is "best". I learned a long time again that when it comes to audio, you can and should listen to top quality equipment etc, but in the end you have to buy what sounds best to YOU.

[Chalkperson]

there will be no difference in sound quality between a file stored in flash memory and a file stored on optical disc (unless the optical reader induces jitter or other errors).

That's the whole point of why digital files from a Server or Hard Drive sounds better than the original CD, assuming it goes thru the same high end d/a converter...

[anasazi]

This is a purely personal preference, and I can't and won't opine on what medium is "best". I learned a long time again that when it comes to audio, you can and should listen to top quality equipment etc, but in the end you have to buy what sounds best to YOU.

I completely agree and could not have stated it better. I have LPs, CDs, MDs, whatever it takes. I would likely try a new medium. But spending money on the audio setup pays really big dividends, more than opting for LP or CD (maybe, er, depends). It's almost surreal at times when I buy a CD of a 40 or 50 year old recording and discover that it sounds worse than the vinyl copy I've had on my shelf all of these years. But it was mastered on a tape, and the tape has deteriorated so much that even putting it on a CD won't make it sound better than it did 40 years ago - on vinyl. FOr instance, those London phase 4 LPs. The original vinyl still blows away all CD reisues I have heard. Not because the CD medium is inferior, but because the master tapes are no longer worth anything.

For new digitally mastered recordings however, I would as soon download the music as buy a memory chip. That's probably more to the idea that I would very soon not be albe to keep up with where all of these SD cards have migrated. They're devilishly difficult to locate once you've misplaced one of them. I'm only now getting so I can find things on my PC hard drive.

[Holden Fourth]

The CD is dying as we post and has been for a while. The prolific availabilty of music downloads combined with devices that can store them means that the younger generation are more interested in what is on their iPods/MP3 players than buying CDs. It's us older folks that still resort to this compact disc medium and while we continue to do so it's still viable as a medium for delivering music but its time is limited. That's why I own an MP3 player and am considering buying a portable HD to store and play my music.

Also, SD card is already capable of holding a lot of music. Just imagine the complete LvB piano sonatas on one card with negligable loss of sound quality!

[absinthe]

I seem to remember Phillips claiming "it was technology that would last the next 25 years" and that looks about what happened. Aside from CD's advantages over LP, new consumer technology usually means expectations being managed down in pursuit of more profit. That's mp3: convenient and small but not totally satisfactory - I have to adjust what I expect or avoid it. For travelling when listening is usually impaired it's adequate.

Maybe it's the middle and older generation most affected, those who have attended concerts and know the real sound. Some younger people wouldn't ever have heard live music so presumably they'll accept it as a gadget. It looks like it's aimed at the pop market for the launch anyway.

I'll certainly give it a look if one comes my way depending on whether I can transfer my existing music. It isn't so different from one of my mp3s in which I slot a memory card about the size of a stamp. So I can segregate collections on different cards. It cost me £8.

As for its lastability, who knows? CDs were designed to be standardised after what I'm told was the debacle of quadraphonic LPs. Now we're starting into a proliferation of standards/formats again.

[Lance]

What will ultimately happen—to introduce the buying public to new formats—is that top-quality CD players will be manufactured less, and those that will continue to be made available will probably become pricey. A thought often occurs to me is to grab a couple of high-quality CD players and keep them stored until the need arises, or as your existing players burn out or become unusable. Marketing has a way of FORCING the public to go into different directions and moving to new technology and products. I am NOT a follower in that philosophy wholeheartedly. There are billions and billiions of CDs across the world now. People will WANT to be able to play them, play them, that is, unless the discs start bronzing after so many years and become unplayable. Let's hope that never happens! After we've all expired, the new technology will prevail - unless there is no world at all. Collections of music should be able to be played until Doom's Day by the owner. I still play LPs and use them on the air for broadcasting and I understand vinyl is reappearing and we can still buy high-quality turntables. Cartridges may end up the problem, however.

[JackC]

What will ultimately happen—to introduce the buying public to new formats—is that top-quality CD players will be manufactured less, and those that will continue to be made available will probably become pricey. A thought often occurs to me is to grab a couple of high-quality CD players and keep them stored until the need arises, or as your existing players burn out or become unusable. Marketing has a way of FORCING the public to go into different directions and moving to new technology and products. I am NOT a follower in that philosophy wholeheartedly. There are billions and billiions of CDs across the world now. People will WANT to be able to play them, play them, that is, unless the discs start bronzing after so many years and become unplayable. Let's hope that never happens! After we've all expired, the new technology will prevail - unless there is no world at all. Collections of music should be able to be played until Doom's Day by the owner. I still play LPs and use them on the air for broadcasting and I understand vinyl is reappearing and we can still buy high-quality turntables. Cartridges may end up the problem, however.

You can still buy turntables and cartridges, in a wide range of prices and quality, without any problem. So I'm not too worried that CD players are going to come off the market, or get a lot more expensive, anytime soon.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.as ... e&sort_by=

[absinthe]

You can still buy turntables and cartridges, in a wide range of prices and quality, without any problem. So I'm not too worried that CD players are going to come off the market, or get a lot more expensive, anytime soon.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.as ... e&sort_by=

An interesting viewpoint. It seems that the hardware for the previous "generation" can be obtained but not for earlier generations. Turntables and a selection of styli for 78s are extremely difficult to find - a bit of a dilemma for those who own the earliest acoustic 78s which were rarely recorded at the then standard speed of 80, and for which a turntable with speed variation from about 76 to 82 would be desirable.

There's also the problem becoming evident with CDs. They seem unlikely to last as long as 78s, LPs or well-stored reel-to-reel tapes. I've already had a couple of commercial CDs go down though the earliest ones from Japan seem in the same condition as when bought... that doesn't disclose what's going on at the molecular level though!

[Chalkperson]

There's also the problem becoming evident with CDs. They seem unlikely to last as long as 78s, LPs or well-stored reel-to-reel tapes. I've already had a couple of commercial CDs go down though the earliest ones from Japan seem in the same condition as when bought... that doesn't disclose what's going on at the molecular level though!

I have ripped over 13,000 CD's over the last three years all bought from 1986 onwards and only TWO were unplayable, that's pretty good I think...

[absinthe]

There's also the problem becoming evident with CDs. They seem unlikely to last as long as 78s, LPs or well-stored reel-to-reel tapes. I've already had a couple of commercial CDs go down though the earliest ones from Japan seem in the same condition as when bought... that doesn't disclose what's going on at the molecular level though!

I have ripped over 13,000 CD's over the last three years all bought from 1986 onwards and only TWO were unplayable, that's pretty good I think...

My hopes are indeed along these lines though I've never committed quite the amount of space to CDs that many members here have. CDs have so many advantages all round that they reign supreme. With your outfit, bonuses of SACD or 24 or 32 bit formats would probably yield that little bit extra sound quality. But for many with mid-fi systems the standard format has to be the best.

My worry is as an afficionado of the weird, the very CD I've set store in will go down (as did the BBC Artium Palestrina/Soriano "Mass of St Sylvester"). Let's hope your ratio of 1:6500 prevails!

I suppose I have about 150 "core" CDs that went OOP quickly and I could never part with, increasing at possibly 10 per year. The rest come and go...

[TopoGigio]

For personal recording,the CD/DVD are easy and very good.
Everybody has his music...almost for free.
-
The problem is the industry and the money,they have the
distribution and the broadcasting as last powers...and
they are Cursed! The True The End!

[rwetmore]

The future seems to be downloads, but let's hope that doesn't necessarily mean low quality downloads.

In my experience, CD audio (44.1khz/16bit) never achieved transparency to the source. This is most easily demonstrated by transferring an LP to digital CD audio and then compare the results. The full rich sound of the LP is not captured using 44.1khz/16bit. SACD is a big improvement over CD, but I think something a little more is required for truly transparent audio. Sony's DXD format might be the holy grail, but given that SACD failed to gain any significant market share, I doubt we'll ever see it in a consumer format.

There is going to be a small push for this Blu-ray audio format, but as far as I know the highest quality audio in the spec is 192khz/24bit. The possibility of DXD (352.8khz/24bit) on the format exists, but I don't think we'll ever see it.

[Chalkperson]

The future seems to be downloads, but let's hope that doesn't necessarily mean low quality downloads.

In my experience, CD audio (44.1khz/16bit) never achieved transparency to the source. This is most easily demonstrated by transferring an LP to digital CD audio and then compare the results. The full rich sound of the LP is not captured using 44.1khz/16bit. SACD is a big improvement over CD, but I think something a little more is required for truly transparent audio. Sony's DXD format might be the holy grail, but given that SACD failed to gain any significant market share, I doubt we'll ever see it in a consumer format.

There is going to be a small push for this Blu-ray audio format, but as far as I know the highest quality audio in the spec is 192khz/24bit. The possibility of DXD (352.8khz/24bit) on the format exists, but I don't think we'll ever see it.

Blue Ray Audio is out of this World...better than anything I have ever heard actually, including Stereo Systems costing more that 250K...

[absinthe]

More interesting issues....always allowing listeners' preferences to particular formats/carriers

The future seems to be downloads, but let's hope that doesn't necessarily mean low quality downloads.

In my experience, CD audio (44.1khz/16bit) never achieved transparency to the source. This is most easily demonstrated by transferring an LP to digital CD audio and then compare the results. The full rich sound of the LP is not captured using 44.1khz/16bit.

Many listening comparisons were made between the source Lyrita tapes (that were usually recorded using only 3 microphones - Neumann U87s or something of that quality) and the CD masters. They were almost indistinguishable. As you probably know, tape tends to approach saturation with a curve allowing it a softer ceiling with an overload of +3db before distortion creeps in (well, it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and I'm thinking of Ampex 1/2" here). Digital recording hits it hard - there is no sloping-off. Any overload distorts. Devices to simulate the characteristics of tape are there for DDD recordings - transfering an analogue doesn't need them, as long as levels are set so the analogue peak doesn't exceed the digital limit. But the ADD CDs definitely bring out more detail than the tapes, slight but noticeable and I've had a few discussions about why this is so.

I'm never sure what this "transparency" of sound is, referred to in the classical music/hi-fi press. It seems to relate to the musical detail allowed by the medium along with superior dynamic range (which in itself allows more musical detail to sound through). The venue also comes into it, alas. Anyone who's heard Chandos' earlier recordings in All Saints Church will know the echo-y acoustic blurs just about everything but particularly chromatic harmony so musical detail is often destroyed by the echoes. The Royal Albert Hall is never used for recording as its weird acoustic seems to muddy the sound a lot. Some venues allow a better clarification of musical textures. And then there's the actual recording techniques. Many miked sections and instruments means you'll hear what the engineers want you to hear rather than what's there.

I've transferred perhaps 100 LPs to CD either on a dedicated semi-pro player (mainly for preparing red-book masters on CD-r for further duplication), or on computer through editing software. I've noticed a slight loss in warmth though CDs follow the source well. I make no adjustments in the recording chain, taking the trouble to check peak readings first, then just let it go....with a final clearup of pops and crackles.

I also have a digital recorder that allows me to work up to 192/32. But found that even 192/24 is hard to distinguish from 96/16 - well, my ears may partly be to blame but there's also the small problem with D/A noise. 16bit gives 96db dynamic range. 24bit gives (IIRC) 144db dynamic range. The problem is that the best D/A (digital to analogue) converters have an s/n ratio of around -104db, so the potential advantages of the last 8 bits is mostly lost beneath the noise floor. Sure, the more bits reduce dither which, if one listens extremely carefully one can sometimes hear in older CDs when they had to record at 44.1. But the main justification for 24 bit is an increase of accuracy if intermediate processing manipulates these numbers - not something that should concern the classical fan who seeks to get the music as natural as possible (as per RCA Living Stereo) but it does because various enhacing devices do get stuck in the classical recording chain.

SACD is a big improvement over CD, but I think something a little more is required for truly transparent audio. Sony's DXD format might be the holy grail, but given that SACD failed to gain any significant market share, I doubt we'll ever see it in a consumer format.

I think aims such as these are great but the fact is, electronic reproduction of acoustic music leaves no one under an illusion. It isn't the real thing. If I thought spending upwards of £50,000 on a CD transport and supporting equipment could bring even 50% of the atmosphere of the concert hall into my room, I'd buy it - but it can't, so I'm under no illusion. The sound might be dazzling and exciting....but it isn't what I'd hear in the hall.

It's a cert that the Japanese would love to re-engineer our expectations to accept the sound of orchestras on CD as stylised and perfect, rather than reflect back to real orchestras and live performances because it allows them to do far more at the technical level.
I'm also convinced that the next step is enhanced, sampled music. The foot is already in the door as increasing numbers of film soundtracks are constructed from orchestral samples the manipulation of which grows cleverer by the day. Even the Vienna Philharmonic set can now be had for £3000 and that contains a lot of modelling to yield "intelligent" legato, crescendi and diminuendi and things. There's a particular piano sample set for use with midi that no longer uses actual piano sounds. It's authors have modelled them and, sorry to say, they are deceptively good. So I think these super-sounding audio formats are just stages in an increasing drive for the artificial. Hire a 100-piece orchestra for 3 days then compare the price to one technical musician who can put the same pieces together in a sequencer in maybe 30 days....

There is going to be a small push for this Blu-ray audio format, but as far as I know the highest quality audio in the spec is 192khz/24bit. The possibility of DXD (352.8khz/24bit) on the format exists, but I don't think we'll ever see it.

There must be the hope, then, that superior A/D and D/A converters will be produced. I'm still not too happy with the way all-digital amplifiers work but I am enquiring. Technical and schematic data aren't easily available to an "outsider" but we perseve!

[Chalkperson]

If you put in decent Power Cables, gold plug recepticles, Power Line Conditioners etc and have a dedicated line from the mains the sound will improve, you can temper the sound with interconnects and speaker cables too, but we are talking $1,000 a meter stuff here...but it works, that's what they use at Abbey Road and Air etc... living in Manhattan I don't have a car, just a stereo...transparancy, WTF does that mean, an Orchestra's Sound is nothing other than moving air, that's the Holy Grail I guess, I am using a Valve D/A basically as a power amp before the Pre Amp and that then goes to the real Power Amps, I use 200 Watt Power Amps, Bi-amping to Macintosh Speakers, Quad ESL are just too thin sounding for me...

[Lance]

[snipped] I use 200 Watt Power Amps, Bi-amping to McIntosh Speakers, Quad ESL are just too thin sounding for me...

McIntosh? Hmm ... did you know thay are made right here in BINGHAMTON, NEW YORK. At least we're famous for something besides this area being the home of IBM and the great Binghamton University (SUNY)! Just thought I'd put in a plug for all these great things!

[Lance]

ABSINTHE ... You knocked me off me feet, or on my rear end with your discourse. The people we have here on CMG are, quite honestly, very bright, erudite people and genuinely fine people all the way around! What a posting.

YOU GET POST OF THE DAY AWARD HERE ON THE CLASSICAL MUSIC BOARD. (Have one on me!)

[Chalkperson]

[snipped] I use 200 Watt Power Amps, Bi-amping to McIntosh Speakers, Quad ESL are just too thin sounding for me...

McIntosh? Hmm ... did you know thay are made right here in BINGHAMTON, NEW YORK. At least we're famous for something besides this area being the home of IBM and the great Binghamton University (SUNY)! Just thought I'd put in a plug for all these great things!

My friend Alan The Audio Elf is the World's biggest Seller of Macintosh, he has a system set up at Stereo Exchange a block from the studio that costs about $350,000 for Surround Sound, the main Speaker Columns contain FIFTY Speakers, Tri-Amping, the three sub woofers are the size of garbage pails...I love their speakers, they are very thin and can be mounted into the sheetrock to become part of the walls rather than the furniture, The Spouse Factor we call that...

[absinthe]

ABSINTHE ... You knocked me off me feet, or on my rear end with your discourse. The people we have here on CMG are, quite honestly, very bright, erudite people and genuinely fine people all the way around! What a posting.

YOU GET POST OF THE DAY AWARD HERE ON THE CLASSICAL MUSIC BOARD. (Have one on me!)

Me?

Why, thank you? << a little perplexed >> If you say so! Truth is I couldn't get to sleep last night so I got up again to look for something that might help.....
a Mahler Symphony, perhaps?

But then I realised there were much better things to do so I popped on here.

[absinthe]

I am using a Valve D/A basically as a power amp before the Pre Amp and that then goes to the real Power Amps, I use 200 Watt Power Amps, Bi-amping to Macintosh Speakers, Quad ESL are just too thin sounding for me...

That's an interesting...well, a new approach. I see the possibility of using (a) pre-amp type valve(s) to handle and buffer the analogue, like an ECC83 or something, but a power amp driving into a pre-amp? That's buffering with a vengeance! Are you feeding it into passive volume/tone controls? (I'm not being rude suggesting you'd use the common-old Baxendall-styled tone controls but they do have their uses with historic material.) I've always thought passive controls superior and added them on the front of a Linsley-Hood MOSFET amp I built a few years ago (with a bypass switch (sealed gold contact, obviously))!

How does the noise performance of your arrangement come out?

It's a subject I find interesting - which probably makes me boring - so this was just to say a valve D/A conversion provoked some thought! I've built a couple of valve amps...quite a different construction technique from transistors. The smaller used output pentodes; the 25Wpc used KT88 beam tetrodes, a beautiful sound. Just a shame that valves have a few administrative problems - unfortunately short lives and a long warm up period.

cheers
A

[slofstra]

ABSINTHE ... You knocked me off me feet, or on my rear end with your discourse. The people we have here on CMG are, quite honestly, very bright, erudite people and genuinely fine people all the way around! What a posting.

YOU GET POST OF THE DAY AWARD HERE ON THE CLASSICAL MUSIC BOARD. (Have one on me!)

Whoa, absinthe, Lance only gives out POTD once a year!! He should call it POTD of the year.

[Chalkperson]

I am using a Valve D/A basically as a power amp before the Pre Amp and that then goes to the real Power Amps, I use 200 Watt Power Amps, Bi-amping to Macintosh Speakers, Quad ESL are just too thin sounding for me...

That's an interesting...well, a new approach. I see the possibility of using (a) pre-amp type valve(s) to handle and buffer the analogue, like an ECC83 or something, but a power amp driving into a pre-amp? That's buffering with a vengeance! Are you feeding it into passive volume/tone controls? (I'm not being rude suggesting you'd use the common-old Baxendall-styled tone controls but they do have their uses with historic material.) I've always thought passive controls superior and added them on the front of a Linsley-Hood MOSFET amp I built a few years ago (with a bypass switch (sealed gold contact, obviously))!

How does the noise performance of your arrangement come out?

It's a subject I find interesting - which probably makes me boring - so this was just to say a valve D/A conversion provoked some thought! I've built a couple of valve amps...quite a different construction technique from transistors. The smaller used output pentodes; the 25Wpc used KT88 beam tetrodes, a beautiful sound. Just a shame that valves have a few administrative problems - unfortunately short lives and a long warm up period.

cheers
A

Let me explain the chain, I used to have Two Stereo Musical Fidelity Power Amps Bi-amping B+W Speakers for stereo, then a Musical Fidelity 5 Channel Power Amp running the Center and Bi-amping the Rear B+W's...part of that included a Huge Valve D/A from MF, that fed the preamp, I also had a huge Power Plant Power Conditioner driving the Front Power Amps and a Different Conditioner feeding the Center and Rear Channels, then a third one for the TV and DVD player, Power Conditioners by PS Audio are basically giant Power Amps that clean the power and thus feed the system...then I moved Apartments and decided the gear was just too much equipment so I changed to Linn, their CD/DVD/SACD player also acts as the Pre Amp, then that feeds the seven 200W Power Amps...but you can't use any kind of Power Conditioners with Linn Gear because they denigrate the sound instead of improving it, so I put in pure gold Power Sockets that connect with three seperate Copper Cables that go back to the Fuse Box, then big heavy duty Power Cords connect the Linn's...then Dialectric-Bias System Interconnects and Speaker Cables which have a passive voltage running around the cables, four cables per Speaker...the sound is awesome but on Red Book CD's it's too transparent for my taste, so I use a CD Transport that feeds the MF D/A Converter which then goes to the pre amp, it increases the volume by at least 40% that way, then each piece of equipment is on isolation devices and have Shakti Stones on the top of them, Shakti Stones are used in racing cars to absorbe the EMI and thus increase the Horsepower of the cars and increase the efficiency of the cars computer system, so there are three large stones on the Linns, and then small thin strips on the crossover area of the speakers and then half a dozen more at the fusebox, this reduces the EMI to Less than Zero, then there are Noise Harvesters in the second outlet of each power receptacle and five in the Power Strip that connect to the Linn's, those take Line Noise and convert it to Light, which then is pulsed out of the units...the noise floor is unbelievable, blacker than black, it sounds as good as Recording Studio, and I spent many years in studios with Bands...put in a Blur Ray Player, a Play Station Three actually, and the Home Theater set up is complete...in 1967 my father bought me a Stereo Cartridge for my Mono Record Player, he ran the other two wires to the Radio and used the Auxiliary imput and Lo and Behold I had Stereo, I took it one stage further by removing the wire to my TV's speaker and connected that to the radio and later to my Stereo, Home Theater in 1967...


Shakti Stones...

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SHAKTI

Noise Harvesters...

https://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp

Dialectric Cables

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/dbs_anaology_field.pdf

Cable Theory, all 25 Pages of it...

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

[Jack Kelso]

Personally, I am very happy with the sound I get from my stereo equipment, as I play all tapes and CDs over my ROTEL amp, PIONEER equalizer and POLK speakers. Yes, even CD sound is slightly enhanced my the equalizer (to my tastes).

Tschüß!
Jack

[annalisa_moretti]

CDs will take at least another decade or two to become obsolete. Even though there are ipods and other high-storage mp3s out there, CDs are still used today, no matter what people say.

[maestrob]

The secret to great sound in any system is in the speakers, folks. Everything else needs to act like a straight wire from the source (CD, DVD, etc.).

Keep it simple, says I.

I've got a magnificent pair of Bozak Century 301A's dating from 1968, and, with drivers replaced once during their lifetime (1981), I've been happily married to them for 40 years.

These speakers have a detail, depth and warmth I've not heard from others, with a full, rich natural sounding bass that shows no strain even in the loudest passages. The best seat is about five feet away: it feels like front row center every time.

And they work just fine for background listening as well at lower volumes.

[maestrob]

Here's what they look like: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/ele/843066564.html

[Chalkperson]

And they work just fine for background listening as well at lower volumes.

That is another very important aspect of any system...the Person Next Door Factor...

[Chalkperson]

Here's what they look like: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/ele/843066564.html

Here are my Macintosh Speakers...

Front and Rear...
http://mcintoshlaboratory.tripod.com/ls/xls360.htm

Center Channel
http://mcintoshlaboratory.tripod.com/ls/cs350.htm

[Seán]

CDs will take at least another decade or two to become obsolete. Even though there are ipods and other high-storage mp3s out there, CDs are still used today, no matter what people say.

I will buy as many as I can within the next twenty years so.

[Kuhlau]

A fascinating read, this thread. I got lost amidst some of the technical talk, but I followed as best I could.

FWIW, here's my take on this new micro SD format: it'll fizzle out. Or at least, it will as soon as DAPs (Digital Audio Players) go entirely solid state and stop using HDDs that can fail.

The way I see things is like this. Downloading is the future, period. Forget the nostalgia of LPs and reel-to-reel, however much superior these formats are claimed to be. Forget how convenient and click, crackle and hiss-free CDs are, or how prevalent they've become worldwide. Forget even Blu-Ray audio, incredible though I'm sure it is. At the end of the day, it'll all come down to simple economics.

Digital downloads are easily stored, easily reproduced and easily sold at a variety of bitrates and in a variety of lossy and lossless formats (right up to studio master quality), and all for comparatively little outlay when weighed against the costs of CD production. Plus, downloads can be distributed faster and more efficiently, thanks to the world's greatest (and most cost-effective) mass distribution system: the internet.

Think about it. Why else did DRM (Digital Rights Management) appear? Why don't we hear so much these days about the pirating of physical DVDs and CDs? Why are P2P (peer-to-peer) networks scaring the hell out of the recorded music and film industries? Need I say more?

As for my prediction about the remaining 'life span' of the humble CD, I'd say expect all production of new recorded discs to have halted within roughly ten to fifteen years - replaced, in the case of classical music, by FLAC downloads with full digital artwork and PDF liner notes. The market for blank CDs will probably last about another ten years beyond that. And CD players? The good news is that I expect we'll see these being produced for many more years to come - if only by specialist companies making them for specialist markets ... like those of us with huge classical CD collections.

FK

[Lance]

Well Friedrich, a lot of what you say makes sense. Few people who collected 78-rpm discs thought they would ever go the way of the LP. They did! (I knew some of the heavy 78-rpm collectors.) Having 68,000+ classical LPS myself , I never thought I would go the way of the CD. Guess what: I did! (And am very happy about it, too ... it's just what do I eventually do about disposing of the LP collection.) You guestimate that blank CDs will be around another decade and half or so and so will playback equipment. That's good news. It is within that time frame that I expect to expire (unfortunately, but naturally, I will hold on as long as I can). But this time, I can assure you that I have nary a one expectation of downloading from the Internet. This is where I draw the line: when CDs are no longer produced. I can be very happy for the next 10-15 years if nothing else ever appears on CD. Most of the great historical stuff has been issued, and the great stereo recordings from RCA "Living Stereo" and Mercury "Living Presence" has been issued. Given 32,000+ CDs, I have enough to make me very happy, indeed. I leave the "new technology" to the younger set. I just hope there will be a high percentage of the popular who still loves classical music as we know and love it.

As for my prediction about the remaining 'life span' of the humble CD, I'd say expect all production of new recorded discs to have halted within roughly ten to fifteen years - replaced, in the case of classical music, by FLAC downloads with full digital artwork and PDF liner notes. The market for blank CDs will probably last about another ten years beyond that. And CD players? The good news is that I expect we'll see these being produced for many more years to come - if only by specialist companies making them for specialist markets ... like those of us with huge classical CD collections.

FK

[DavidRoss]

If one were to listen sequentially to 32,000 CDs for 12 hours a day, it would take about 8 years to give them all one hearing. The same for 68,000 LPs.

Are you sure that's enough?

[Kuhlau]

If one were to listen sequentially to 32,000 CDs for 12 hours a day, it would take about 8 years to give them all one hearing.

I take comfort from these numbers. They reassure me that I still have plenty of time to listen at least once more to everything in my own collection.

FK

[Lance]

Well, in fact, it's TOO much in many ways and space and shelving become major problems. But this what a lifetime of collecting has yielded and it creeps up on you faster than you realize. Some collect matchbook covers, all kinds of beer bottles (with labels thereon); others collect World War I or II memorabilia. I had a record collecting friend who still had some knives or swords with the bloodstains thereon. (Imagine!) [His brother was a city garage collector ... bad analogy.] Some people collect old cars, paintings, sculpture or books. Early on, I started to collect grand pianos, but quickly put that one aside for obvious reasons. I knew a lady who collected sewing thimbles and had thousands of them. (They take a lot less space but were made of everything imaginable.) My mother-in-law collected Ukrainian and Russian Easter eggs and made hundreds of them herself. As a young boy, I had a fascination for KEYS and collected thousands of them, all shapes and sizes. I also collected stamps with a particular fascination for American stamps. Both of those hobbies went by the wayside by the time I reached my mid-teens.

For me, it was music in recorded form. It's not so much the time involved in listening to such a mass of recordings but rather repertoire. I may be interested in only one track on some compilation. My fascination was with the performing artist and the repertoire and that did not include every artist who ever made a recording. When it came to composers such as J. N. Hummel, for example, I wanted every work of his that was ever recorded, so enamoured I became with his music. The point is, I have all this material at my disposal especially in producing radio broadcasts. In a real sense, it's a sickness of sorts, but WHAT a sickness, eh? And I often help performers out who are in need of hearing a performance of this or that. In the end, I am "sharing" this treasure-trove of music and performers. At this point in life (I am supposed to be "retired," but am busier than ever), I listen to more music than ever before. Believe me, it's not going to waste nor just sitting on shelves gathering dust. I also love to catalogue all this material. (Thank God for computers these days ... they are far better than 3x5 cards!)

You ask: is it enough? Yes, it's basically enough. Now I add to the collection very carefully. Besides, companies are not releasing in huge lots these days, at least the major labels. I rarely buy another Beethoven Fifth or Ninth, or any major piece where many renditions are already at my fingertips. I make exceptions for piano recordings, however. The Rubinsteins, Horowitzes, Moiseiwitsches, Hesses, Haskils, Cherkasskys, Koussevitzkys, Stokowskis, Furtwänglers, Toscaninis, etc., have now all gone to the Great Beyond and are no longer producing records at least on Earth! You should also know that I do NOT collect DVDs in the same quantities (though I am tempted and have some). It also comes down to financial considerations at some point and you begin to ask yourself: "Do I really need this or that."

If one were to listen sequentially to 32,000 CDs for 12 hours a day, it would take about 8 years to give them all one hearing. The same for 68,000 LPs.

Are you sure that's enough?