How many have discovered more "bronzed" CDs?

[Lance]

I keep watching certain labels. Amongst the historical ones, PEARL (of England) had probably the worst reputation for CDs that would become bronzed and eventually would become unplayable. I am finding this with certain Pearl CDs to this day (not new discs, but older ones that suddenly begin to deteriorate). If I discover one that looked "okay" originally and is now bronzing, I make an immediate CD copy and place it within the same jewel case. That, at least, saves the complete CD performance for me.

The worst case of any deterioration I have ever seen was in the first complete issue by RCA of Enrico Caruso's recordings. That edition is one of the most deluxe presentation I have ever seen [appearing as 60495, 12 CDs]. Every disc in that set is completely "cancered" and totally unplayable. The blame for this deterioration was because of the inks used to print on the surfaces. However, it is not the printed surfaces that deteriorated, it is the readable flip sides, which look like broken up pieces of Saran wrap you can actually peel off the disc. I kept the set because of the beautiful liner notes and presentation, but eventually acquired RCA's budget-priced remake [60396] which has none of these problems.

Some said RCA's complete Rachmaninoff set [61265] was also slowly deteriorating but I have that and keep watch. It seems to be fine all these years after its initial CD release.

Also, some Hyperions were subject to this bronzing problem. It's always a great pity to suddenly discover some old disc you haven't played for a while only to find it can no longer be played and is no longer available for replacement.

[Chalkperson]

I ripped 16,000 discs and only had problems with about twenty discs that I could not rip, that's a pretty impressive and high percentage of good discs, whilst the Music Pearl issuses is of the utmost importance it was a shoestring operation in the beginning, they probably bought cheap blank CD's, of the 20 discs I could not rip only one was on Pearl, three were from Abbado's DG Schubert Cycle BTW...

[Seán]

Lance, Chalkie, hoew old are these CDs? This ispreposterous, one will never, ever, encounter these difficulties with vinyl!

[Chalkperson]

Lance, Chalkie, hoew old are these CDs? This ispreposterous, one will never, ever, encounter these difficulties with vinyl!

No, but Vinyl Warps...

[Chalkperson]

Lance, Chalkie, hoew old are these CDs? This ispreposterous, one will never, ever, encounter these difficulties with vinyl!

The CD's are about 20 years old...

[Seán]

Lance, Chalkie, hoew old are these CDs? This ispreposterous, one will never, ever, encounter these difficulties with vinyl!

No, but Vinyl Warps...

If you take care if vinyl it won't warp AND it will last for thousands of years not just 20 .

[Lance]

Yes, I would say the CDs that have bronzed are about two decades old. For a while, the company that pressed/printed CDs for Pearl, Hyperion and others, would send a new CD if you sent the bronzed one. Later, I believe that restriction (of sending the old one back) was removed. The problem, otherwise, is that many of the Pearl discs were short-lived anyway right from their first issuance, and once withdrawn from the catalogue, they were virtually impossible to find again.

Vinyl? Yes, I have PLENTY of vinyl as well. Any shortcomings in the original vinyl discs, even from DGG or Philips (but rarely Japanese vinyl), plagues the LP. Inherent (but not discernible by eye) includes keeping pops, clicks, etc. I shan't forsake my LP collection until I've come to the "end of the road," as it were, and at that point, whatever happens to it happens. If one does take care of vinyl, you're right, it can and does last a lifetime (as did 78-rpm discs).

[Prometheus]

Chalkperson:

"I ripped 16,000 discs"


Wow. How much space does that occupy data wise? I have considered ripping my collection (which is nowhere near that size) to digital, but spatial storage, choosing file size/quality, and the time to do so have been the greatest of impediments.

I have looked at the option of buying a Western Digital My Book 1 TB for this, but am not sure how many cds that in itself would hold.

[maestrob]

Lance:

I have a few Hyperions (Howard Shelley's Rachmaninov, and a few others) that have "bronzed," as well as one Vanguard disc of music by Ernest Bloch. Otherwise I haven't discovered anything else.

[Chalkperson]

Chalkperson:

"I ripped 16,000 discs"

Wow. How much space does that occupy data wise? I have considered ripping my collection (which is nowhere near that size) to digital, but spatial storage, choosing file size/quality, and the time to do so have been the greatest of impediments.

I have looked at the option of buying a Western Digital My Book 1 TB for this, but am not sure how many cds that in itself would hold.

It is almost Six Terrabytes, all files are Apple Lossless, it took four years to Rip, but, that's an average of six hours per day, seven days a week, the Tagging and Cataloguing took a great many months too, i'm working with a High End Audio Company, PS Audio, to produce a fully functional and dedicated High End Music Server, our Remote Application for the i-Phone/i-Pod Touch was just shown at CES, we are making the Server Software capable of dealing with up to 100,000 CD's...we are using all my Data to launch/build/test the Software...

You will get about 3,500 discs on a 1TB drive, might as well get started, everything's going digital...

[Seán]

Chalkperson:

"I ripped 16,000 discs"

Wow. How much space does that occupy data wise? I have considered ripping my collection (which is nowhere near that size) to digital, but spatial storage, choosing file size/quality, and the time to do so have been the greatest of impediments.

I have looked at the option of buying a Western Digital My Book 1 TB for this, but am not sure how many cds that in itself would hold.

It is almost Six Terrabytes, all files are Apple Lossless, it took four years to Rip, but, that's an average of six hours per day, seven days a week, the Tagging and Cataloguing took a great many months too, i'm working with a High End Audio Company, PS Audio, to produce a fully functional and dedicated High End Music Server, our Remote Application for the i-Phone/i-Pod Touch was just shown at CES, we are making the Server Software capable of dealing with up to 100,000 CD's...we are using all my Data to launch/build/test the Software...

You will get about 3,500 discs on a 1TB drive, might as well get started, everything's going digital...

Chalkie, do you perform regular system backups and store the copies off site?

[stenka razin]

Lance, there were three RCA CD boxes that bronzed. The Rachmaninov plays Rachmaninov, Rubinstein/Chopin and the Caruso.
I was very fortunate because in the 1990's you could call RCA and get the Classical person and he or she would help you.
I sent back my three boxes and they replaced them at no cost to me.
That was another world. Try calling a major company today, my friend.

[josé echenique]

I recently discovered that my original EMI recordings of Les Contes d´Hoffmann with Cambreling (Shicoff, Norman, Serra, etc), and the Rattle Porgy and Bess have been changing colour. It´s not "bronzing" but something different. And this has not happened to much older EMI recordings that I own.They still play fine, but I´m keeping an eye on them too.

[Chalkperson]

Chalkie, do you perform regular system backups and store the copies off site?

Absolutely, incremental BackUp's are done each night but only on the most recent drive as the others do not need it, then I have a full set of BackUp drives in use at the Studio and a third set in a Storage Locker...and now a Fourth Set at PS Audio...BackUp is absolutely essential...

[Seán]

Chalkie, do you perform regular system backups and store the copies off site?

Absolutely, incremental BackUp's are done each night but only on the most recent drive as the others do not need it, then I have a full set of BackUp drives in use at the Studio and a third set in a Storage Locker...and now a Fourth Set at PS Audio...BackUp is absolutely essential...

Indeed it is, you're a wise man, well done.

[Prometheus]

Thanks for the response and the description of the process.

If I TB holds 3,5000 that should be more than I need. Agreed that backup is indeed important and it would appear that if I choose this path I would eventually need two external drives so I would have one for backup in case the first fails.

Your High End Music Server project sounds fascinating. Look forward to hearing more of it in the future.

[Chalkperson]

Your High End Music Server project sounds fascinating. Look forward to hearing more of it in the future.

I posted a Thread a while ago, I had to be very careful what I revealed at that point, but you can check it out...

http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopi ... +Adventure

[Prometheus]

Thanks again for the information and the link to this project.

[Febnyc]

I had dozens of bronzed CDs.

If I recall correctly the fault was nothing inherent in the CD format itself, but a failure on the part of the manufacturer (Philips, I believe) to properly coat the disc and thereby protect it from "breaking down" due to contact with the paper booklet (or some explanation along those lines). Hyperion had on its website a note about this, a range of dates during which the affected CDs were produced and a list of the catalogue numbers of those.

The Unicorn-Kanchana label also was involved. I have, however, experienced bronzing on Deutsche Grammophon and one or two other labels - but not the the extent of the Hyperions/Unicorns.

I sent back all the bronzed discs and, in each case, promptly received a new one from PDO (the Philips outfit). In a number of cases the late Ted Perry of Hyperion went to bat for me and "encouraged" Philips to replace the discs without my having to return the bronzed ones.

This all occurred a couple of years ago - since I replaced the specific damaged CDs I've not found any more.

(PS - I just found this link: http://members.cox.net/surround/uhjdisc/bronze.htm)

[ChrisX]

Hyperion had on its website a note about this, a range of dates during which the affected CDs were produced and a list of the catalogue numbers of those.

Up to quite recently they had a page on their website called "About Bronzing" but that has gone now directly from the menu but they are still referring to it on this http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/CD-facts.asp which to my surprise links you to:

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.asp

[josé echenique]

Lots of labels were involved, including Collins Classics, DG and Nuova Era. My copy of Peer Gynt under Neeme Jarvi in DG was made in the UK, not Germany and it bronzed. So look for discs made in the UK at the time.

[JackC]

Your High End Music Server project sounds fascinating. Look forward to hearing more of it in the future.

I posted a Thread a while ago, I had to be very careful what I revealed at that point, but you can check it out...

http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopi ... +Adventure

I read through this thread and found it really interesting.

I have some really stupid questions. I got an ipod classic for Christmas. I have started loading CDs into itunes. I see that you can use different importing formats - AAC, Apple lossless, MP3. I have been using AAC. Is that a mistake? Should I use lossless? I have thousands of CDs, and am not looking to put them all onto itunes. I just was to have large collection at my fingertips with the ipod. But I am concerned that going forward I may be limiting my options.

What is the difference in size between lossless and AAC? How much more can I fit onto a hard drove by using AAC instead of lossless. Also, if I import into itunes using lossless, can those files be quickly converted into AAC/Mp3 and loaded onto the ipod?

Does the Ipod play lossless files?

Sorry - silly questions from a rank begginner, but I would appreciate any guidance.

[Chalkperson]

I have some really stupid questions. I got an ipod classic for Christmas. I have started loading CDs into itunes. I see that you can use different importing formats - AAC, Apple lossless, MP3. I have been using AAC. Is that a mistake? Should I use lossless? I have thousands of CDs, and am not looking to put them all onto itunes. I just was to have large collection at my fingertips with the ipod. But I am concerned that going forward I may be limiting my options.

What is the difference in size between lossless and AAC? How much more can I fit onto a hard drove by using AAC instead of lossless. Also, if I import into itunes using lossless, can those files be quickly converted into AAC/Mp3 and loaded onto the ipod?

Does the Ipod play lossless files?

Sorry - silly questions from a rank begginner, but I would appreciate any guidance.

No worries, Jack...I have no idea of the Bit Rate of AAC but what I can say is that there is no point of making MP3 or Lossy files any more, Hard Drive storage is very cheap and i-Pod's have increased in their capacity, you should start with Apple Lossless Files which are also known as ALAC, they are uncompressed Hi-Rez files, you can make MP3's from them but I don't really see the point, the most common Hi-Rez file format is FLAC, but, Apple's i-Pod's will not support FLAC, they made Apple Lossless as their own form of Lossless Music Flies, the reason is purely Economic, because i-Pod's will only play Apple Lossless it means that when Apple starts selling Hi-Rez files on i-Tunes then you will have to buy them from their store, Steve Jobs is only interested in Revenue Based scenarios, an Apple Lossless file works out at about 330 MB compared to about 770 MB for a physical CD or a WAV or AIFF file which is full size and uncompressed, there is no Audible difference between FLAC and Apple Lossless, they both do the same thing...

I have been writing about Digital Archives here for almost three years and my advice is still the same...Make Lossless Files, not MP3, if you make lossless files you will never need to re-Rip them in the future, if you make AAC Files you will regret it down the line as you will, one day, listen to Digital Music on your Stereo, maybe not today but in the future you will for sure, from what I remember you have good quality equipment, Linn has stopped making CD Players as they feel that CD is redundant technology and I agree with them, Linn produce SACD's which are a different thing of course...no question is in any way dumb, ask me anything you want to know...chalkie

[JackC]

I have some really stupid questions. I got an ipod classic for Christmas. I have started loading CDs into itunes. I see that you can use different importing formats - AAC, Apple lossless, MP3. I have been using AAC. Is that a mistake? Should I use lossless? I have thousands of CDs, and am not looking to put them all onto itunes. I just was to have large collection at my fingertips with the ipod. But I am concerned that going forward I may be limiting my options.

What is the difference in size between lossless and AAC? How much more can I fit onto a hard drove by using AAC instead of lossless. Also, if I import into itunes using lossless, can those files be quickly converted into AAC/Mp3 and loaded onto the ipod?

Does the Ipod play lossless files?

Sorry - silly questions from a rank begginner, but I would appreciate any guidance.

No worries, Jack...I have no idea of the Bit Rate of AAC but what I can say is that there is no point of making MP3 or Lossy files any more, Hard Drive storage is very cheap and i-Pod's have increased in their capacity, you should start with Apple Lossless Files which are also known as ALAC, they are uncompressed Hi-Rez files, you can make MP3's from them but I don't really see the point, the most common Hi-Rez file format is FLAC, but, Apple's i-Pod's will not support FLAC, they made Apple Lossless as their own form of Lossless Music Flies, the reason is purely Economic, because i-Pod's will only play Apple Lossless it means that when Apple starts selling Hi-Rez files on i-Tunes then you will have to buy them from their store, Steve Jobs is only interested in Revenue Based scenarios, an Apple Lossless file works out at about 330 MB compared to about 770 MB for a physical CD or a WAV or AIFF file which is full size and uncompressed, there is no Audible difference between FLAC and Apple Lossless, they both do the same thing...

I have been writing about Digital Archives here for almost three years and my advice is still the same...Make Lossless Files, not MP3, if you make lossless files you will never need to re-Rip them in the future, if you make AAC Files you will regret it down the line as you will, one day, listen to Digital Music on your Stereo, maybe not today but in the future you will for sure, from what I remember you have good quality equipment, Linn has stopped making CD Players as they feel that CD is redundant technology and I agree with them, Linn produce SACD's which are a different thing of course...no question is in any way dumb, ask me anything you want to know...chalkie

Thanks very much. I am a long-time audiophile with close to state of the art equipment, including a VPI TNT turntable and the venerable sony SCD-1 SACD player, with extensive mods.

I was using the ipod only for listening when I travel for work and for my car, which are not environments where state of the art sound is needed (at least for me).

My ipod holds 160 GB. If a CD is about 770 MB and a lossless file is about 330 MB - that means that my ipod would hold about about 485 CDs stored in lossless (160GB/300 MB). Is that about right?

But thank's for stopping me from ripping more AAC files. I will start using lossless.
One more question, using your computer and equipment, how long does it take you to "rip" a lossless copy of a CD onto a hard drive? I think my pc is so old it is taking me way too long.

Thanks again.

[Chalkperson]

Thanks very much. I am a long-time audiophile with close to state of the art equipment, including a VPI TNT turntable and the venerable sony SCD-1 SACD player, with extensive mods.

That's what I thought I remembered...

I was using the ipod only for listening when I travel for work and for my car, which are not environments where state of the art sound is needed (at least for me).

My ipod holds 160 GB. If a CD is about 770 MB and a lossless file is about 330 MB - that means that my ipod would hold about about 485 CDs stored in lossless (160GB/300 MB). Is that about right?

Yep, 450+ is plenty of Music...

But thank's for stopping me from ripping more AAC files. I will start using lossless.

You will not regret it...

One more question, using your computer and equipment, how long does it take you to "rip" a lossless copy of a CD onto a hard drive? I think my pc is so old it is taking me way too long.

Should be between three and five minutes...probably time for a new machine...an i- Mac would do nicely...

Thanks again.

Any time...