Great "New World"

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Heck148
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Great "New World"

Post by Heck148 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:29 pm

This is an oldie, but goodie - Reiner/CSO/1957 - RCA - its most recent reincarnation on SACD. :D

Toscanini/NBC has always held first place for me - with Reiner/CSO and Szell/CO running very close competition..

however - this SACD verion of the Reiner is really quite spectacular - the sound is wonderful, and a huge improvement over previous issues...the true greatness of the original masters is revealed with great clarity and impact...this moves it into at least a tie for Gold Medal

as always with Reiner, the momentum, the drive, is of course present, and the precision and phrasing are clear and convincing.
This SACD recording really shows the tremendous dynamic range of the Reiner CSO - lovely soft passages, with ultra clear woodwinds, and then the stunning eruptions of sound at the fortissimos. Reiner had suiperb orchestra control - He'd let the orchestra run - they were super aggressive, but he did keep it under control - not suppressed, but always ready to uncork when he gave the green light..
the clarity on this SACD is superb - great WW and brass playing from all sections - marvelous solos for all - with special kudos to clarinet [Brody], English horn [Thorstenberg - new on the job], bassoon [Sharrow], horn [Farkas]. the brass is exemplary - ranging from the lovely dark chorale phrases of the Largo, to the explosive blasts of sound and the bold proclamations of the main tunes in mvts I and IV.

This is a great SACD - in addition to the "New World" - it contains a wonderful rendition of "Carnival Overture" - along with Kertesz/LSO, best I've ever heard - tho actually I give Reiner the nod, since he plays the middle section so sweetly and passionately. Kertesz does OK, but it doesn't have the espressivo - both conductors excel in the high spirited driving up-tempo circus music sections.

Also included is Smetana's "Bartered Bride Ov." - great performance, and the classic Weinberger 'Polka and Fugue" from "Schwanda" - this is a sound spectacular that features among other things, the loudest trumpet playing I've ever heard recorded. :mrgreen: :roll:

RCA/BMG issued a whole set of these Reiner performances on SACD - highly recommended, they sound great - the Strauss and Resphigi discs are terrific also - get 'em while you can, because I think this series was discontinued... :(

ContrapunctusIX
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:50 pm

Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the guy that just got an SACD player around X-Mas? You seem to be enjoying it!

I'm familiar with that New World (I have it on CD), but not the SACD version. Is it really that good? I know the format can do wonders for old recordings, but sometimes it can be a disaster. I think it primarily comes down to the condition of the analog master. My personal favorite 9ths are Ancerl (VS, CPO), Kubelik (VPO, BPO), Kertesz (VPO - NOT the LSO version), Kondrashin (VPO) but I also really like Ormandy, Szell and the aforementioned Reiner.

Riddle me this: was the transfer to digital done using DSD or PCM? (If it's DSD, it should say so on the back of the disc.)
Last edited by ContrapunctusIX on Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:50 pm

The Kertesz "New World" was available as a SACD in Japan and is just wonderful but OOP, my other favourite is Kondrashin on Decca...

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Heck148 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:49 pm

ContrapunctusIX wrote:Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the guy that just got an SACD player around X-Mas? You seem to be enjoying it!
yup, you remember correctly!! :D
I'm familiar with that New World (I have it on CD), but not the SACD version. Is it really that good?
yes, much superior to any previous incarnation I've heard or owned. the clarity is amazing, esp in the mid-range...it's almost like hearing the recording for the first time...
I know the format can do wonders for old recordings, but sometimes it can be a disaster.

yes, I know...sometimes the over-processing makes things much worse.
I think it primarily comes down to the condition of the analog master.


I've always felt that many of those master tapes from the 50s and 60s were really very good - but the LP cutting process was the weak link in the chain....modern digital processing, if applied skillfully, can affect a big improvement.
Riddle me this: was the transfer to digital done using DSD or PCM? (If it's DSD, it should say so on the back of the disc.)
It's DSD.

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:25 pm

Agh, I wish you'd said PCM. Now I need to add it to my Amazon basket. :)

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by RebLem » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:30 pm

I have, and treasure, the Reiner recording of the New World, though not on SACD. And another CSO performance, that of Carlo Maria Giulini, is also among the top contenders for my allegiance. Ancerl, Szell, and Kubelik are also right up there. But surprisingly, to me, the best performance of all is one few have heard--Zdenek Macal with the London Philharmonic on the mid-priced Classics for Pleasure label.
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:50 pm

RebLem wrote:I have, and treasure, the Reiner recording of the New World, though not on SACD. And another CSO performance, that of Carlo Maria Giulini, is also among the top contenders for my allegiance. Ancerl, Szell, and Kubelik are also right up there. But surprisingly, to me, the best performance of all is one few have heard--Zdenek Macal with the London Philharmonic on the mid-priced Classics for Pleasure label.
I have that Recording, it's a little quirky, but still very enjoyable...he has another recording on Delos with the Mighty Ninth coupled with Dvorak's Requiem...on that subject Neeme Jarvi's new Recording of the Dvorak Requiem on LSO Live is really good...
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by stenka razin » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:11 am

There are countless contenders for best of show in this extraordinary Symphony. But, I will recommend the supurb and moving Fritz Reiner/Chicago Symphony RCA Living Stereo performance. It is a classic and should be heard by all. 8)

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Heck148 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:50 am

stenka razin wrote:There are countless contenders for best of show in this extraordinary Symphony. But, I will recommend the supurb and moving Fritz Reiner/Chicago Symphony RCA Living Stereo performance. It is a classic and should be heard by all.
yes, that's the one - but the SACD sounds alot better...

I wish RCA had kept that series going, I would love to hear Reiner's Brahms #3, or esp, his Tchaik #6 in SACD format... :x

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:42 am

Heck148 wrote:
I wish RCA had kept that series going, I would love to hear Reiner's Brahms #3, or esp, his Tchaik #6 in SACD format... :x
That Reiner Brahms 3 is one of my favorites.

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by maestrob » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:28 am

The Reiner New World is the one I grew up with, and along with Szell, it has remained a favorite.

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by pizza » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:27 pm

Here is a link to an excellent short survey of Dvorak 9 by Peter Gutmann. Of course, there are many fine recordings of the symphony, and two of my favorites are included in this article: Bernstein/Israel PO is usually the one I turn to most often for a modern recording in excellent sound, and the 1944 Oswald Kabasta/Munich PO live performance, having previously been attributed in error to Furtwangler/Berlin PO, is an emotional roller-coaster that has to be heard to be believed.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/newworld.html

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:01 pm

Another one of the best of the Dvorak 9th is Fricsay/Berlin Phil on DGG (along with Liszt and Smetana). He really milks the music for all it's worth! But maybe some folks don't enjoy it that way......

Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:03 pm

Jack Kelso wrote:Another one of the best of the Dvorak 9th is Fricsay/Berlin Phil on DGG (along with Liszt and Smetana). He really milks the music for all it's worth! But maybe some folks don't enjoy it that way......

Tschüß,
Jack
On this we agree, Jack. Fricsay's 9th is very fine, with bold and exciting climaxes. Perhaps we can bury the hatchet regarding Herr Schumann and simply agree to disagree.
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Barry » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:15 pm

Jack Kelso wrote:Another one of the best of the Dvorak 9th is Fricsay/Berlin Phil on DGG (along with Liszt and Smetana). He really milks the music for all it's worth! But maybe some folks don't enjoy it that way......

Tschüß,
Jack
That's my favorite Dvorak 9th.
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:56 am

ContrapunctusIX wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:Another one of the best of the Dvorak 9th is Fricsay/Berlin Phil on DGG (along with Liszt and Smetana). He really milks the music for all it's worth! But maybe some folks don't enjoy it that way......

Tschüß,
Jack
On this we agree, Jack. Fricsay's 9th is very fine, with bold and exciting climaxes. Perhaps we can bury the hatchet regarding Herr Schumann and simply agree to disagree.
Sounds fine to me. That was pretty stressful over on that thread, eh...?! :)

Tschüß,
Jack
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by christmashtn » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:24 pm

Here's a real sleeper of a "New World" - Muti and The New Philharmonia on EMI's Budget Encore series! It will only cost you 4-5 dollars and you get quite a vitalic performance which never drags, and it sings it heart out from first bar to last. All the repeats are observed. You also get quite a full blooded Tchaikovsky Romeo and Juliet. Check it out!

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by JackC » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:41 pm

Heck148 wrote:This is an oldie, but goodie - Reiner/CSO/1957 - RCA - its most recent reincarnation on SACD. :D

Toscanini/NBC has always held first place for me - with Reiner/CSO and Szell/CO running very close competition..

however - this SACD verion of the Reiner is really quite spectacular - the sound is wonderful, and a huge improvement over previous issues...the true greatness of the original masters is revealed with great clarity and impact...this moves it into at least a tie for Gold Medal

as always with Reiner, the momentum, the drive, is of course present, and the precision and phrasing are clear and convincing.
This SACD recording really shows the tremendous dynamic range of the Reiner CSO - lovely soft passages, with ultra clear woodwinds, and then the stunning eruptions of sound at the fortissimos. Reiner had suiperb orchestra control - He'd let the orchestra run - they were super aggressive, but he did keep it under control - not suppressed, but always ready to uncork when he gave the green light..
the clarity on this SACD is superb - great WW and brass playing from all sections - marvelous solos for all - with special kudos to clarinet [Brody], English horn [Thorstenberg - new on the job], bassoon [Sharrow], horn [Farkas]. the brass is exemplary - ranging from the lovely dark chorale phrases of the Largo, to the explosive blasts of sound and the bold proclamations of the main tunes in mvts I and IV.

This is a great SACD - in addition to the "New World" - it contains a wonderful rendition of "Carnival Overture" - along with Kertesz/LSO, best I've ever heard - tho actually I give Reiner the nod, since he plays the middle section so sweetly and passionately. Kertesz does OK, but it doesn't have the espressivo - both conductors excel in the high spirited driving up-tempo circus music sections.

Also included is Smetana's "Bartered Bride Ov." - great performance, and the classic Weinberger 'Polka and Fugue" from "Schwanda" - this is a sound spectacular that features among other things, the loudest trumpet playing I've ever heard recorded. :mrgreen: :roll:

RCA/BMG issued a whole set of these Reiner performances on SACD - highly recommended, they sound great - the Strauss and Resphigi discs are terrific also - get 'em while you can, because I think this series was discontinued... :(
I remember you were getting an SACD player. I'm glad that you think so highly of this disc. Over 15 of the great Reiner recordings were reissued on SACD. I bought them all. Knowing how much you love those recording, and how well the SACD reissues were done, you must really be enjoying yourself. If you don't have the others, make sure you get them before the dissappear.

http://www.sa-cd.net/search/reiner/1/1/1/1

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:00 pm

I like this one:
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by arthound » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:52 pm

I picked up Solti's 'New World' on ebay but have only had a quick listen a few months back - this doesn't get mentioned often - I wonder if it is considered to be too driven?

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:21 pm

arthound wrote:I picked up Solti's 'New World' on ebay but have only had a quick listen a few months back - this doesn't get mentioned often - I wonder if it is considered to be too driven?
I think so. The CSO just sounds like it's going through the motions and Solti doesn't seem all that interested either. During the finale, the horns really sound like they have somewhere better to be. I don't mind a fleet 9th - Szell, Reiner and Paray submitted electric accounts at high speeds - I just need a bit more character. The CSO, though virtuoso, lacks a little bit of personality.

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:53 pm

Chalkperson wrote:The Kertesz "New World" was available as a SACD in Japan and is just wonderful but OOP
Chalkie I just wanted to follow up on this, as your post sent me off to research this release. Alas, I couldn't find it, so instead I actually tried to purchase the SHM-CD from Amazon (next best thing, I figured). Imagine my surprise when the 2nd hand vendor I bought it from sent me the hybrid SACD version! I feel like I made out like a bandit on this transaction, not only was the item cheaper than the ridiculous list price on Amazon, but I get a DSD SACD version of the symphony.
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:30 pm

ContrapunctusIX wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:The Kertesz "New World" was available as a SACD in Japan and is just wonderful but OOP
Chalkie I just wanted to follow up on this, as your post sent me off to research this release. Alas, I couldn't find it, so instead I actually tried to purchase the SHM-CD from Amazon (next best thing, I figured). Imagine my surprise when the 2nd hand vendor I bought it from sent me the hybrid SACD version! I feel like I made out like a bandit on this transaction, not only was the item cheaper than the ridiculous list price on Amazon, but I get a DSD SACD version of the symphony.
I have a bunch or Rock SHM CD's but no Classical, with Rock the difference in sound is quite profound at times and there are only so many Bands I would re-invest in, I decided against buying Classical ones because I have such a vast collection that paying big prices to replace works where I have many alternates seemed not the best idea, glad you got the SACD though...have you tried any BluRay sound only discs...
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:47 pm

Chalkperson wrote: I have a bunch or Rock SHM CD's but no Classical, with Rock the difference in sound is quite profound at times and there are only so many Bands I would re-invest in, I decided against buying Classical ones because I have such a vast collection that paying big prices to replace works where I have many alternates seemed not the best idea, glad you got the SACD though...have you tried any BluRay sound only discs...
I haven't Chalkie. I've looked around a bit but I didn't see any noteworthy performers on the format at the moment. I'd imagine the potential for BR-Audio is there though. The format has enough available space to handle 24 bit -192kHz sampling across 8 channels, I'd think that could result in some really eye-opening remasterings of vintage performances, to say nothing of new state-of-the-art recordings. I do question, however, whether or not there is a profitable market for the medium. SACD and DVD-A both sounded great but died quick and gruesome deaths, just like Quad vinyl did in the 70s. There will always be that niche audience, but I highly doubt classical record companies are going to open the books on something as risky as that when they are already struggling to sell physical media. You could argue that latching onto a format a lot of people already have playback capability for would help its chances, but I'm not optimistic about it.

Completely OT, but I've been waiting for Floyd's Wish You Were Here SACD to come out for 2 years now, it just keeps being delayed (at this point, indefinitely). I think the only way that album would ever get a multi-channel release at this point would be on Blu-Ray, so I certainly hope a BR-Audio format catches on!

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:27 pm

ContrapunctusIX wrote:Completely OT, but I've been waiting for Floyd's Wish You Were Here SACD to come out for 2 years now, it just keeps being delayed (at this point, indefinitely). I think the only way that album would ever get a multi-channel release at this point would be on Blu-Ray, so I certainly hope a BR-Audio format catches on!
I will have to find out what's happening to that, here is one of my photographs, taken in 1984, of Dave (The Rave) Gilmour, one of the kindest and most generous people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and also working with...
David Gilmore 0008.jpg
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:46 pm

So, am I to understand that you are going to ask Gilmour about the SACD? That's pretty cool Chalkie.

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:10 pm

ContrapunctusIX wrote:So, am I to understand that you are going to ask Gilmour about the SACD? That's pretty cool Chalkie.
Indirectly, yes...it was released in Quadrophonic too, and they always performed it in that way, as they did with everything from Dark Side of the Moon onwards, my friend Chris Thomas (he mixed DSOTM) used to go on Tour for the first couple of months to mix the Live Concert sound, get it all sorted out and then split, i'll ask him when I see him next...

If you like it that much there was just a new limited pressing of CD's released in Japan, all the Floyd Albums, the best quality sound yet, still from the 1994 remaster though...
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by CharmNewton » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:57 am

Chalkperson wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:So, am I to understand that you are going to ask Gilmour about the SACD? That's pretty cool Chalkie.
Indirectly, yes...it was released in Quadrophonic too, and they always performed it in that way, as they did with everything from Dark Side of the Moon onwards, my friend Chris Thomas (he mixed DSOTM) used to go on Tour for the first couple of months to mix the Live Concert sound, get it all sorted out and then split, i'll ask him when I see him next...

If you like it that much there was just a new limited pressing of CD's released in Japan, all the Floyd Albums, the best quality sound yet, still from the 1994 remaster though...
Chalkie, have you ever worked with the Alan Parsons Project?

John

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Istvan » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:37 am

"The CSO just sounds like it's going through the motions and Solti doesn't seem all that interested either."

I beg to differ: I put the Solti version into the player thinking I had probably already heard this symphony a few times too often. I found it quite a revelation: Solti brings out tiny details in the orchestration which make listening a richer experience. There is, as one might expect, plenty of excitement but the slow movement is intensely beautiful. Previously, I had thought the 8th and 7th symphonies greater; thanks to Solti I would now place the 9th alongside.
Cheers

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:27 am

CharmNewton wrote:Chalkie, have you ever worked with the Alan Parsons Project?

John
No, I stayed clear of Alan Parsons, he was/is still very upset that Chris was brought in on DSOTM and I was not at all impressed by his music, it's Fake Floyd i'm afraid...sorry...
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by rogch » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:17 am

It is hard to imagine a better recording of this work than Nikolaus Harnoncourt and the Concertgebouw Orchestra.
Roger Christensen

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by CharmNewton » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:55 am

Chalkperson wrote:
CharmNewton wrote:Chalkie, have you ever worked with the Alan Parsons Project?

John
No, I stayed clear of Alan Parsons, he was/is still very upset that Chris was brought in on DSOTM and I was not at all impressed by his music, it's Fake Floyd i'm afraid...sorry...
DSOTM had (probably still does) quite an audiophile status. A friend bought the Mobile Fidelity LP but I didn't hear what was special. I thought The Wall had very good sound for a pop recording, but that was produced by John McClure, a classical guy. I find many pop recordings difficult to enjoy because of the poorly mixed reverb. I think the pop guys could learn a lot from classical people in the business.

My sister was a big fan of the Alan Parsons Project and I got to like some of their songs. They did have a distinctive sound that was quickly recognizable. You've had the opportunity to rub shoulders with a lot of musicians, both classical and popular. Any chance you'll ever put a book together?

John

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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:10 pm

CharmNewton wrote:You've had the opportunity to rub shoulders with a lot of musicians, both classical and popular. Any chance you'll ever put a book together?

John
Pete Townshend published my book in 1981, it contained a lot of my Rock work from 1973-1980 that was not done in the Studio, I moved into the Studio in 1981 and never went back outside, Amazon has a copy for less than $3...

http://www.amazon.com/Pointed-Portraits ... 639&sr=1-1
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by Chalkperson » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:21 pm

CharmNewton wrote:DSOTM had (probably still does) quite an audiophile status. A friend bought the Mobile Fidelity LP but I didn't hear what was special. I thought The Wall had very good sound for a pop recording, but that was produced by John McClure, a classical guy. I find many pop recordings difficult to enjoy because of the poorly mixed reverb. I think the pop guys could learn a lot from classical people in the business.
I hate to correct you, but, The Wall was mainly Produced by Bob Ezrin, Roger and Dave also had a hand in it as did James Guthrie, the late Michael Kamen did the Orchestral work...John McLure was an Classical Engineer who worked on Alan Marshall's Film version...

I was in the Boardroom of the London Times having lunch with Pete Townshend and a bunch of other film and photography people one day back in 1981, and, Alan Marshall proclaimed that he had to leave early because he needed to go to Islington to burn down a School for Another Brick in The Wall... :wink:
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Re: Great "New World"

Post by CharmNewton » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:42 pm

Chalkperson wrote:I hate to correct you, but, The Wall was mainly Produced by Bob Ezrin, Roger and Dave also had a hand in it as did James Guthrie, the late Michael Kamen did the Orchestral work...John McLure was an Classical Engineer who worked on Alan Marshall's Film version...
I recall McClure's name from the Columbia CDs, but shouldn't confuse that with the original producers, who did a really fine job. This doesn't seem to have made it to Blu-Spec yet.

John

CharmNewton
Posts: 1944
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 9:10 pm

Re: Great "New World"

Post by CharmNewton » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:43 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
CharmNewton wrote:You've had the opportunity to rub shoulders with a lot of musicians, both classical and popular. Any chance you'll ever put a book together?

John
Pete Townshend published my book in 1981, it contained a lot of my Rock work from 1973-1980 that was not done in the Studio, I moved into the Studio in 1981 and never went back outside, Amazon has a copy for less than $3...

http://www.amazon.com/Pointed-Portraits ... 639&sr=1-1
Thanks, it's on its way.

John

arthound
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:26 am

Re: Great "New World"

Post by arthound » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:53 am

RebLem wrote:I have, and treasure, the Reiner recording of the New World, though not on SACD. And another CSO performance, that of Carlo Maria Giulini, is also among the top contenders for my allegiance. Ancerl, Szell, and Kubelik are also right up there. But surprisingly, to me, the best performance of all is one few have heard--Zdenek Macal with the London Philharmonic on the mid-priced Classics for Pleasure label.
Thanks for the tip RebLem. I picked up the Macal for about $3 on E-Bay - it's a wonderful performance!

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