So tired of Wagner uproars

[piston]

Yes, the guy was fabulously egocentric. He could have been a case of repressed homosexuality, as Professor Adler put it. And his anti-semitism just won't go away.

I don't like Wagner. And I especially don't like people who make a public "spill" out of Wagner.
Give it a rest.

[John F]

Has anybody been beating this particular horse in CMG recently? I wonder what provoked your protest (which I agree with, incidentally).

[stefanher]

If he was so anti-Semitic why did he ask a gentleman called Levi to conduct some of his premieres?

[Jared]

^^ I was going to ask the same question....

I really don't know what I'm going to make of Wagner.. I have Bohm's 'Die Walkure' 4CD set (Philips) peering at me from a darkened corner of the room, and I haven't had the courage to try it yet. The Wagner excerpts I've heard thus far during my life have been frightening. This hasn't been helped by the fact that I've never met anyone who has adopted a 'take it or leave it' attitude to his music; the (admittedly very limited no of) people I've talked to, tend to fall into fairly extreme camps. Is this also the case on CMG? I don't know, he doesn't seem to get mentioned all that often, does he?

I'm reading 'The Rest Is Noise' at the moment, and I was startled to read about Winifred Wagner reminiscing fondly about Hitler to an American Army Officer in 1946, and referring to 'our blitzkrieg'... and the officer walking away with 'terror in his veins' (p378). Quite sobering, really..

[John F]

And absolutely nothing to do with Richard Wagner.

[piston]

What prompted this thread is the recent uproar about the Israel Chamber Orchestra's anticipated performance in Bayreuth, next summer, which would "break" the long-standing boycott of that Wagnerian city expected of all Israeli orchestras. Moreover, as I clicked on a news report about this in La Scena Musicale, a hail of computer viruses struck my computer.

To summarize this absurd cultural situation: because Wagner expressed anti-Semitic views during the 19th century, even though he was by no means the only composer to have done so, and because Hitler loved Wagner's music all orchestras in Israel must permanently boycott Bayreuth and Wagner's great great-granddaughter cancelled her projected trip to that country.

I say give it a rest.....

[John F]

Well, that's how it is in Israel, where the uproar occurred. It's not Bayreuth in particular but anything to do with Wagner, not least his music, that's tabu among many Israelis, and there's no doing anything about it.

What surprises me is that though the youngest Wagner never even got to invite the Israeli ensemble to the Festival, they're coming to Bayreuth anyway, and playing in the city hall. Whatever for?

[John F]

If he was so anti-Semitic why did he ask a gentleman called Levi to conduct some of his premieres?

Actually, he didn't. Hermann Levi was the general music director of the Bavarian Court Opera, on whose orchestra and chorus the Bayreuth Festival depended. Ludwig II of Bavaria, who had chosen Levi ten years previously as his chief conductor, wasn't about to be persuaded that Levi wasn't qualified to conduct "Parsifal." It was a package deal. Wagner then actually asked Levi to convert to Christianity, but that too was a nonstarter. He wasn't so antisemitic as to cancel the premiere of his last opera rather than allow a Jew to conduct it, but from his point of view, the latter was merely the lesser of two evils.

[Donald Isler]

I think this thread is childish.

Wagner was one of the worst and most outspoken of anti-semitic composers, and that is a big part of why he is generally not performed in Israel, at least while Holocaust survivors are still alive. (Obviously what his family did during the war is not his fault.) If you were a survivor of the Shoah you might have a different attitude.

[RebLem]

Well, that's how it is in Israel, where the uproar occurred. It's not Bayreuth in particular but anything to do with Wagner, not least his music, that's tabu among many Israelis, and there's no doing anything about it.

What surprises me is that though the youngest Wagner never even got to invite the Israeli ensemble to the Festival, they're coming to Bayreuth anyway, and playing in the city hall. Whatever for?

This was something I have never quite understood. Wagner was a terrible anti-Semite, though he often engaged Jewish conductors to premiere his works, and many of the greatest 20th century Wagnerians have been Jews. The Israeli stance on this issue is particularly hard to understand since the Volkswagen Beetle was once the most popular car in Israel, and VW had a very direct involvement with the Nazi regime.

[absinthe]

.....This hasn't been helped by the fact that I've never met anyone who has adopted a 'take it or leave it' attitude to his music; the (admittedly very limited no of) people I've talked to, tend to fall into fairly extreme camps. Is this also the case on CMG? I don't know, he doesn't seem to get mentioned all that often, does he?

I'm sort of +/-0 about Wagner. To me he can get a bit long-winded but that's probably because most of my listening has been from recordings not live theatre. I like Die Feen, Rienzi and Der Fliegende Hollander (which I have with Klemperer conducting and Silja - alas, no DVD of that), Meistersingers isn't too bad but truly it's difficult to set aside enough time to take in an entire work even were I disposed to. And some of them are, well, impossible for me. I've never been able to get through Lohengrin. Someone (famous like Verdi or Meyerbeer) said that Wagner has dazzling moments....and bloody awful half hours...!

I do think his destiny of composing for the stage was set by the age of 20 with Die Feen. Just my view.

I'm reading 'The Rest Is Noise' at the moment, and I was startled to read about Winifred Wagner reminiscing fondly about Hitler to an American Army Officer in 1946, and referring to 'our blitzkrieg'... and the officer walking away with 'terror in his veins' (p378). Quite sobering, really..

Wagner wasn't the only composer to be championed by the Third Reich though.

Sky Arts recently did Tristan but I couldn't bear to watch it as Isolde looked more like a Grandma. I know life is hard in Cornwall but not that hard...

[Donald Isler]

RebLem,

You know about German reparations to Israel after the war? I believe that VW Beatles, if they weren't actually part of the reparations, were available there very cheaply at the time (early post-war), and they were among the few cars Israelis could afford then.

[absinthe]

.....I believe that VW Beatles, if they weren't actually part of the reparations, were available there very cheaply at the time...

So that's why their career originated in Hamburg...

[scytheavatar]

.....This hasn't been helped by the fact that I've never met anyone who has adopted a 'take it or leave it' attitude to his music; the (admittedly very limited no of) people I've talked to, tend to fall into fairly extreme camps. Is this also the case on CMG? I don't know, he doesn't seem to get mentioned all that often, does he?

I'm sort of +/-0 about Wagner. To me he can get a bit long-winded but that's probably because most of my listening has been from recordings not live theatre. I like Die Feen, Rienzi and Der Fliegende Hollander (which I have with Klemperer conducting and Silja - alas, no DVD of that), Meistersingers isn't too bad but truly it's difficult to set aside enough time to take in an entire work even were I disposed to. And some of them are, well, impossible for me. I've never been able to get through Lohengrin. Someone (famous like Verdi or Meyerbeer) said that Wagner has dazzling moments....and bloody awful half hours...!

I do think his destiny of composing for the stage was set by the age of 20 with Die Feen. Just my view.

I'm reading 'The Rest Is Noise' at the moment, and I was startled to read about Winifred Wagner reminiscing fondly about Hitler to an American Army Officer in 1946, and referring to 'our blitzkrieg'... and the officer walking away with 'terror in his veins' (p378). Quite sobering, really..

Wagner wasn't the only composer to be championed by the Third Reich though.

Sky Arts recently did Tristan but I couldn't bear to watch it as Isolde looked more like a Grandma. I know life is hard in Cornwall but not that hard...

I would actually argue that the works of Verdi and many other opera composers probably have more bloody awful half hours than those of Wagner..... because of Wagner's revolutionary through composition methods that seamlessly combine arias and recitatives there's probably less fillers in his operas than in most other operas where you essentially have beautiful arias and useless recitatives in between. Wagner is a genius and one of the most consistent opera composers out there. The problem with Wagner is that you have to be extremely selective about what recording you get for his works; because of the high difficulty of singing and performing his works there's almost certainly parts where a singer and/or the orchestral sounds not so good and you'll fail to appreciate those parts if you gotten the wrong recording. What recordings of Die Meistersinger and Lohengrin have you heard?

[John F]

I think this thread is childish.

Wagner was one of the worst and most outspoken of anti-semitic composers, and that is a big part of why he is generally not performed in Israel, at least while Holocaust survivors are still alive. (Obviously what his family did during the war is not his fault.) If you were a survivor of the Shoah you might have a different attitude.

Donald, it really isn't about Wagner's antisemitism. Wagner was no less antisemitic before the Nazis came to power than he is now, yet there was no general Jewish boycott of Wagner's music in Germany or Austria, nor in other nations either. Nor is there any such boycott today, outside of the modern state of Israel which came into existence in 1948.

To the contrary, many famous Jewish musicians have been eloquent Wagner interpreters, in full knowledge of his antisemitism. The conductors run from Hermann Levi, who conducted the premiere of "Parsifal," to Gustav Mahler, to Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer, to Daniel Barenboim today. Famous Jewish Wagner singers include Friedrich Schorr, arguably the greatest Wotan of all, and others such as Leo Slezak and Alexander Kipnis; Schorr and Kipnis often sang at the Bayreuth Festival. And many Jews were in the audience too.

Likewise, many strongly anti-Nazi musicians never ceased to perform Wagner's music throughout the Nazi era. Arturo Toscanini led all-Wagner programs here after the U.S. entered World War II. Indeed, he conducted Wagner's "Lohengrin" preludes in concerts by the Palestine Symphony Orchestra in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem on April 24 and 26, 1938. Toscanini boycotted the Bayreuth Festival after the Nazis came to power in 1933, but he never boycotted Wagner.

Toscanini was able to make the important distinction between the value of the artwork and the character of its creator, and beyond this, he did not blame Wagner for the posthumous and therefore involuntary exploitation of his artworks, even to serve ends which he abhorred. To make this distinction is not childish, it's grown-up, and it's necessary if one truly believes that music matters at all.

[Donald Isler]

I am referring specifically to performances of Wagner in Israel, not elsewhere. I have nothing against Wagner being played anywhere else, or of Germans or of Israelis performing anywhere.

But John, your first sentence is remarkably insensitive. Are you aware that ONE THIRD of the Jewish people was murdered in the Holocaust? Maybe that has something to do with some people not wanting to listen to the music of a particularly proud anti-semite.

[Werner]

Here is one of the endless paradoxes in life - Wagner, one of the glories of Western culture - not many, Jewish or not, would deny that - and one of the base antisemites glorified by the world's worst despot.

Ah the mysteries of human existence. So we do what we must - live with it.

[jbuck919]

To the extent that Wagner "tolerated" individual Jews at the same time that he vilified them as a group, I wonder if it was any more complicated than the psychology that permitted George Lincoln Rockwell to be interviewed by Alex Haley--the ability to acknowledge an inexhaustible supply of "exceptions" without finding that they challeng the theory of group inferiority. And I wonder if that is not the same as the basic psychology of conspiracy theorists and other forms of "true believers" who remain unshaken after accommodating infinite challenges to their pet theories. It's as humdrum as that, I suspect, and as despicable.

[Jared]

Here is one of the endless paradoxes in life - Wagner, one of the glories of Western culture - not many, Jewish or not, would deny that - and one of the base antisemites glorified by the world's worst despot.

Ah the mysteries of human existence. So we do what we must - live with it.

another paradox is that Hitler also held the works of Bruckner on a pedistal; indeed he created a statue of him... and he was such a religiously devout man who would have shuddered at the very nature extreme ideologies of mid 20th century Europe, which touted his name as a genius....

[jbuck919]

Here is one of the endless paradoxes in life - Wagner, one of the glories of Western culture - not many, Jewish or not, would deny that - and one of the base antisemites glorified by the world's worst despot.

Ah the mysteries of human existence. So we do what we must - live with it.

another paradox is that Hitler also held the works of Bruckner on a pedistal; indeed he created a statue of him... and he was such a religiously devout man who would have shuddered at the very nature extreme ideologies of mid 20th century Europe, which touted his name as a genius....

Holy smoke, Jarred it back. Hey everybody, JARED IS BACK!

[Jared]

Holy smoke, Jarred it back. Hey everybody, JARED IS BACK!

oh stop it...

I've been very, very busy I'm afraid (that and my 'pooter died)..

[Lance]

Oh Jared, we HAVE missed you! You have no idea how glad we are that you're back!

As for Wagner, for the most part, I can take or leave him, and mostly leave him. I do enjoy some of his early works, his piano music especially, which few perform (Bruce Hungerford and Martin Galling recorded it, Hungerford's is exceedingly rare), and I love the music of the opera Parsifal, the Liebestod in the vocal version from Tristan und Isolde, and Wotan's Farewell from Die Walküre. I personally cannot take Wagner in long stints, it's just sheer choice with me.

[piston]

I am referring specifically to performances of Wagner in Israel, not elsewhere. I have nothing against Wagner being played anywhere else, or of Germans or of Israelis performing anywhere.

But John, your first sentence is remarkably insensitive. Are you aware that ONE THIRD of the Jewish people was murdered in the Holocaust? Maybe that has something to do with some people not wanting to listen to the music of a particularly proud anti-semite.

Then your reaction to my original post is confusing. This time the uproar is nothing about Wagner being performed in Israel but about an Israel ensemble performing in Bayreuth, whatever what's on the program. Incidentally, they are not scheduled to perform during the Bayreuth festival, only in that city, period.

People in Israel, and beyond, can think what they want about Wagner but this particular boycott of Bayreuth, by all and any Israeli orchestra, is curious to me, whether I am insensitive or not. It defies logic. Wagner had nothing to do with the Holocaust. That his music inspired Hitler's sick mind is undeniable but, other than that, he was one of countless others who were antisemites back in the nineteenth century. Why not boycott all the cities where all antisemite composers originated from? That would be logical.

[arepo]

There's no denying that Richard Wagner, Composer, was a genius.

There's no denying that Richard Wagner, anti-semite was an abominable, egotistical human being.

Sad that such great talent was bestowed upon the form of a person like that.

[Wallingford]

One could easily devote a few threads to the music of Third Reich composers that have long been suppressed because said composers smooched ass with Adlof & Company.

Theodor Berger was one such composer: it's a tragedy his Homeric Symphony 's never received a commercial digital stereo recording. This symphony takes me places which neither Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, Nystrom or Pettersson could've imagined transporting me.

[John F]

But John, your first sentence is remarkably insensitive. Are you aware that ONE THIRD of the Jewish people was murdered in the Holocaust? Maybe that has something to do with some people not wanting to listen to the music of a particularly proud anti-semite.

What a question to ask, as if you thought I might be a Holocaust denier. But are you claiming that Wagner was personally responsible for the Holocaust? His writings did not cause German antisemitism, let alone National Socialism, nor did he ever advocate killing Jews because they were Jews. And the musical works which are suppressed in Israel carry no overt antisemitic message, nor any covert antisemitic message which has not been read into them by exegetes with axes to grind. Where's the beef?

And we're not talking about "some people not wanting to listen" to Wagner's music. Nobody's forcing them to, in Israel or anywhere else - they can just not attend Wagner performances. What we're talking about is some people wanting to suppress Wagner's music throughout their country, so that nobody can listen to it, and for the most part succeeding. Do you believe this is right? On what grounds?

Perhaps you can explain to me something that I really don't understand. Evidently you condone the suppression of Wagner's music in Israel, though not anywhere else. What is the reason for this double standard? Are Jews in Israel, most of them not yet born when the Holocaust ended 55 years ago, so much more sensitive and vulnerable than Jews everywhere else, that they need this special protection?

Or is it just that in Israel, but nowhere else, Jews can exercise what de Tocqueville called the tyranny of the majority? Putting it another way, if American Jews possessed the numbers and influence they have in Israel, would they be right to suppress Wagner's music here? If not, then why there?

After all, if Wagner's music were actually corrupting in itself, an incitement to antisemitic hate crimes or even to antisemitic feelings, then it ought to be banned everywhere - just as many countries including Germany have banned Holocaust denial. But what caused the current uproar in Israel is the Israeli orchestra's intention to play the Siegfried Idyll, Wagner's tender and loving tribute to his wife and their infant son on her birthday. What harm could this music do to listeners and performers, even if played in Israel? Which of course it isn't going to be.

You threw down the gauntlet, Donald, by calling this thread "childish." That was rather insensitive in itself, don't you think? I hope we've gotten beyond that.

[Sator]

Translated by me into English from an interview with a leading historian at the University of Tel Avi and first published Tuesday, 29. May 2001 Berlin, "DIE WELT" Feuilliton section:

"Er wird als Symbol instrumentalisiert"

"He is being used as a symbol"

For weeks Israel has been debating over the question as to whether
Daniel Baremboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin should be allowed to
play Act One of Richard Wagner's "Die Walkuere" in the context of
the Israel Festival. State president Moshe Katsav and the Educational
Committee of the parliament are appealing to the festival management
to reconsider their position in order not to "hurt the feelings of
millions of Jews worldwide" (Katsav). The director of the festival
Micha Levinson objects that the board of directors of the festival,
"amongst whom include survivors of the Holocaust", support this
decision with majority support. In order not to force the controversial
composer onto music lovers the Staatskapelle will only play Wagner
in the third concert. "The Ring of Myths - the Israelis, Wagner and
the Nazis" is the title of the study that the historian Na'ama Sheffi
of the University of Tel Aviv has published concerning the background
of the controversy.

DIE WELT: Even though the Israelis already have enough conflict on
their hands, they have been fighting about Richard Wagner for 60
years. Is it the composer or his works that are at issue?

Na'ama Sheffi: Wagner is accepted with such difficulty because he
is being manipulated as the symbol of National Socialism and the
memory of the holocaust. Therefore his anti-Semitic comments and
their influence on the National Socialist regime, however ill defined,
have been very much exaggerated.

DIE WELT: However difficult it is to separate art and politics in
Israel, there proves to be the example of the conductor Arturo
Toscanini, the founder of the Philharmonic Orchestra in Tel Aviv.

Sheffi: When Hitler invited him in 1933 to the Bayreuth Festival,
Toscanini declined the invitation because he saw in it the misuse of
culture by politics. For the same reason he left Mussolini's Italy,
and in 1936 founded the Philharmonic Orchestra of Israel in Tel Aviv.
In those days Wagner was popular here as part of German culture,
least of all amongst the musicians who originated from German cultural
circles. And so it was quite natural that the Jewish orchestra should
play Wagner's compositions twice in 1938. On the program of the Gala
Concerts on the 12th of November 1938 the Italian maestro included
Wagner's [Prelude to the] "Meistersinger".

DIE WELT: Which was cancelled on account of the Reichskristallnacht
[the imperial crystal night].

Sheffi: Coincidentally the pogrom took place three days before this
first concert. A member of the board of trustees appealed to Toscanini
to take into consideration the feelings of the listeners, the majority
of whom had emigrated from Europe. Toscanini took the plea into
account even though they ran contrary to his views. Instead of Wagner
Carl Maria von Weber was played. The issue was not that of Germany
but specifically that of Wagner.

die WELT: And nor was it even about a Wagner boycott...

Sheffi: ...That came much later. In February 1939 the same musicians
played Wagner on a tour of Egypt. A year later a few of his epigrams
appeared in the journal of the Israeli National Theatre Habimah.

DIE WELT: The young Jewish state not only banned Wagner but also
others such as Richard Strauss and Carl Orff, musicians such as
Wilhelm Furtwaengler and Herbert von Karajan, and even the German
language.

Sheffi: In 1950 a British singer wanted to sing Goethe-Lieder set
to music by Schubert. Thereupon the censorship authorities banned
the appearance of the German language, including film. The ban,
which was never particularly strongly upheld anyway, was lifted first
in 1963.

DIE WELT: Shortly before the establishment of diplomatic relations
with the Federal Republic of German in 1965.

Sheffi: The cultural sector long constituted a kind of antithesis
to the official political relations. Israel needed the goal of
reconciliation and the diplomatic ties for practical reasons, but
the Israelis had not forgiven the Germans. This stance was maintained
within cultural circles for a long time.

DIE WELT: Significantly the first big Wagner debates arose in Israel
in 1966.

Sheffi: The Nazi victims in Israel were divided amongst those who
wanted nothing to do with Germany, the majority of whom did not
originate from Germany, and the others, the majority of whom were
German Jews, who despite their persecution, accepted German culture
and even Wagner.

DIE WELT: When Zubin Mehta conducted Wagner's Liebestod" in 1981
the later parliamentary president Dov Shilanski demanded that he "go
back to India".

Sheffi: For one Mehta was the first to have conducted Wagner in
Israel, but the other fact was that the right oriented and traditionally
anti-German Likud bloc ruled at the time. In addition to that the
minister president Menachem Begin was conducting a battle of words
with Federal Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, after Schmidt emphasized the
special German responsibility towards the Palestinians. As a reaction
to the attack the Israeli Philharmonic named Mehta as their lifelong
musical director.

DIE WELT: On October 2000 Mendi Rodan, the conductor of the Rishon
Letzion Symphony Orchestra played Wagner for the first time. The
protest was limited perhaps because Wagner's music could be heard on
Classical Radio or because the Holocaust survivors are dying out.

Sheffi: The Israelis have much greater worries than Germany - the
internal politics. In addition ever more Israelis recognize that
the Holocaust need not be forgotten without having to yell: "we hate
the Germans".

DIE WELT: In your opinion should Wagner be played?

Sheffi: We complain that the Germans threw out very important
Jewish cultural icons. They burnt books and chased Jews out of the
universities. And now the Israelis come along and do something very
similar. We should not forget where such cultural boycotts could
lead.

Those interested in reading further about her views on the subject are directed to the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Myths-Israel ... 101&sr=8-1

[Sator]

Remember too that the Nazi propaganda machine loved to use the music of Liszt and Brahms.

I would add that it is truly and utterly sad that although the Nazi interpretations of history and race have been long debunked, people still consider their bizarre interpretations of Wagner to be not only utterly definitive, but sacred and unquestionable. Those who question the official Nazi doctrines on this subject are soon themselves subjected to emotive attacks and vilifications. I consider the Nazi doctrines about Wagner to be fit only for the lunatic asylum. Just because the Nazi propaganda machine pushed this interpretation does not mean you have to unquestioningly believe everything they tell you.

It should be remembered too that this topic has gone to the Israeli High Court, who concluded that there was no grounds upon which to forbid the performance or study of Wagner's music in Israel. The persistent protests against Wagner's music come, not from enlightened and careful study of the subject, but from those who have settled upon the purely emotive view that the Nazi view of Wagner is a priori true and requires no proof.

In reality Wagner was a revolutionary, and a vegetarian who was also a pacifist. In this day and age he would be the type getting arrested at an anti-globalisation rally, opposing nuclear power plants, or trying to save a rain forest. The reason for his vegetarianism was that he regarded it unforgivable to kill any living creature capable of feeling pain - whether human or animal. This is why Parsifal is a fool for killing the swan out of blind lack of compassion for the suffering of others. Parsifal only becomes enlightened when he learns compassion for the suffering of other creatures. Compare this to Hitler's vegetarianism (which, like G.B. Shaw, he copied off Wagner), and you will see how what a perversion it is.

As for his rejection of Judaism, that was two fold. First, his Catholic wife, Cosima, depised Jews as as the persecutors of Christ. Secondly, he was following Marx's critique of Judaism on the grounds that there was only one humanity ( ie "aller Menschen werden Brüder"), rejecting any notion of any people being different, special or chosen.

[Donald Isler]

My points are clear, John. You don't have to agree with them but really you're using a lot of words to get around them, rather than understand them. And, no, I'm not for legal suppresion of his music in Israel. It's just a de facto thing of decency.

[RebLem]

One could easily devote a few threads to the music of Third Reich composers that have long been suppressed because said composers smooched ass with Adlof & Company.

Theodor Berger was one such composer: it's a tragedy his Homeric Symphony 's never received a commercial digital stereo recording. This symphony takes me places which neither Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, Nystrom or Pettersson could've imagined transporting me.

Also, how about the music of Richard Bruno Heydrich (1865-1938), German opera singer, composer, and pedagogue, and also, unfortunately, father of Reinhard Heydrich, architect of the Final Solution? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bruno_Heydrich
None of his works, which include four operas, are available in recordings, so far as I know. Yet, in his day, he was widely admired. He was a composer of note and the founder of the Halle Conservatory.

[stefanher]

One could easily devote a few threads to the music of Third Reich composers that have long been suppressed because said composers smooched ass with Adlof & Company.

Theodor Berger was one such composer: it's a tragedy his Homeric Symphony 's never received a commercial digital stereo recording. This symphony takes me places which neither Mahler, Sibelius, Nielsen, Nystrom or Pettersson could've imagined transporting me.

Also, how about the music of Richard Bruno Heydrich (1865-1938), German opera singer, composer, and pedagogue, and also, unfortunately, father of Reinhard Heydrich, architect of the Final Solution? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bruno_Heydrich
None of his works, which include four operas, are available in recordings, so far as I know. Yet, in his day, he was widely admired. He was a composer of note and the founder of the Halle Conservatory.

The story of "suppressed" composers because they were 3rd reich supporters would make a very interesting thread. Although I consider myself amateurishly well informed about music I had never heard of Theodor Berger- & a quick check revealed that there is very little recorded music available by him. HOWEVER it appears his music disappeared from the concert halls not after the war but in the mid 60's. Indeed he appeared to have received an honour by the Austrian government as late as 1959- so it is hard to connect any neglect with his wartime politics. I must admit though that at a time when every 5th rate contemporary of Bach & Mozart is being extensively recorded by labels such as CPO & Harmonia Mundi it would be refreshing to hear something of the neglected interwar composers- regardless of their political persuasion.

As for Richard Heydrich- wasn't he rumoured to be Jewish?? I doubt his son would have acknowledged that however...

[diegobueno]

Yes, the guy was fabulously egocentric. He could have been a case of repressed homosexuality, as Professor Adler put it. And his anti-semitism just won't go away.

I don't like Wagner. And I especially don't like people who make a public "spill" out of Wagner.

So much so that you've started one yourself.

[THEHORN]

It's wrong to blame Wagner for Hitler,the Nazis and the Holocaust.
He is no more to blame for all of this than Christ is to blame for the Spanish Inquisition.
Yes,Wagner was an anti-semite,and there's no excuse for that.But it should be remembered that his anti-semitism,as reprehensible as it was,never came remotely close to genocidal insanity of Hitler and the Nazis.
Wagner disliked Jews,but he never advocated genocide against them or any other group of people, and would no doubt have been horrified to see
what was done to the them (and many other groups) in WW2.
Wagner's main beef with the Jews was his belief that they were intrinsically incapable of creating great music or other art works.
He sneered at them,but did not have the sheer hatred and malice of Hitler and the Nazis.
It's not only wrong but silly to read anti-semitism into his operas.
None of them has any Jewish characters and there are no discussions of Jews and Judaism in them. There is not a single anti-semitic statement made by any of the characters in the Wagner operas.
In the first act of Die Meistersinger,there is a referece to David and Goliath in the Bible and its representation in a work of Albrecht Durer, but there is nothing anti-semitic in this reference.
In the second act of Parsifal, where Kundry attempts to seduce Parisfal, she refers indirectly to the crucifixion of Christ and how she laughed at him on the cross and was thus cursed for eternity until she could find salvation.
But there is absolutely nothing anti-semitic about this.
Furthermore,Wagner was hardly the only composer to be guilty of anti-semitism. Ironically,the two most popular composers in Israel are Chopin and Tchaikovsky,both of whom were anti-semites !

[Istvan]

Not all Jews are paragons of virtue: they have their fair share of bigots, fanatics and even racists. Many great creative artists, not just Richard Wagner, had/have outsize personalities and often outsize faults opposing their outsize virtues. Wagner's personality is not important: his music is.

[jbuck919]

Furthermore,Wagner was hardly the only composer to be guilty of anti-semitism. Ironically,the two most popular composers in Israel are Chopin and Tchaikovsky,both of whom were anti-semites !

Wagner was a polemical antisemite. I cannot say because I have not studied the matter whether Tchaikovsky's opinion had any practical consequence (e.g., if he turned down someone for conservatory because of his religion); Chopin's probably do not. In any case, I think we may consider ourselves blessed that the opinion regarding Jews of many other composers is either inconsequentially private or unknown to us entirely.

[Steinway]

For those interested in this subject, I suggest you read:

The Twisted Muse, Musicians and their music in the Third Reich

Author is Michael H. Kater


Oxford Press.

[dulcinea]

Dzhugachvili loved Chaikovskiy so much that he ran the Bolshoi company ragged by demanding constant performances of SWAN LAKE. In the Socialist Realism world, it was demanded of symphonic music that it be democratic=easily accessible with lots of catchy tunes--id est, like the music of PICH.
Who will cast the first stone against Gospodin Petr?

[Sator]

For those interested in this subject, I suggest you read:

The Twisted Muse, Musicians and their music in the Third Reich

Author is Michael H. Kater


Oxford Press.

Those who really love to sanctify the Nazi interpretation of Wagner as Eternal Truth should read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagners-Hitler-Pr ... 633&sr=8-1

It takes the hysterical view that Wagner was the Prophet, and Hitler the faithful disciple who executed his will. Everything that occurred during the Nazi reign was solely and entirely the fault of Wagner.

All of these books start from the assumption that the official Nazi interpretation of Wagner is a priori valid. It is just like Mein Kampf is grounded on the a priori assumption that Jews are the source of all the problems in Germany. If you accept the initial premise then everything else follows. It is all about emotive arguments grounded on assumption accepted as Eternal Truth. It is precisely the sort of thing that was found severely wanting by the Supreme Court in Israel.

However, propaganda is an incalculably powerful tool. Over 70 years later, the emotive impact of the Nazi propaganda machine continue to exert their influence on people's thoughts even today, to the point that it is impossible for rational argument to counter it.

[John F]

Wagner was a polemical antisemite. I cannot say because I have not studied the matter whether Tchaikovsky's opinion had any practical consequence (e.g., if he turned down someone for conservatory because of his religion); Chopin's probably do not.

It's doubtful that Wagner's opinion had any practical consequences either, certainly not of the kind you mention. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, he wasn't even able to prevent a Jew from conducting the premiere of his most overtly religious opera, "Parsifal."

Nor have I seen any evidence that Wagner's polemics, which his prose style made all but unreadable, actually converted anyone to antisemitism. He was preaching to the choir. Including Adolf Schicklgruber, who needed no lessons from Richard Wagner in hating Jews, and who never ascribed any of his own views to Wagner's writings.

As for Wagner's operas, they were not immune from Nazi censorship. In 1939, "Parsifal" ceased to be performed on orders from Berlin, even at Bayreuth where it was the festival's crown jewel; it was held to be politically incorrect in wartime. A Wagner masterpiece, politically incorrect in Hitler's Germany and Austria? Think about it.

Had the Nazis thought about it, they might also have banned "Der Ring des Nibelungen." If the message of "Parsifal" is Christian forbearance in a hostile world - Parsifal may not use the holy spear in combat, even to defend himself - that of the "Ring" is the failure of the Germanic gods to conquer the world or even to survive, and the power and importance of love not just as a motivating emotion but as a moral force.

As it happened, the "Ring" played on until the declaration of total war in 1942, which closed the theaters; only the Bayreuth Festival was allowed to continue, offering "Die Meistersinger" as recreation for convalescing and, I understand, mostly unappreciative German soldiers.

[rogch]

90% of people who hate Wagner have no idea what they are talking about. The ignorance about his works and theories is depressing when we think about his importance in the history of music and culture.

By the way: Martin Luther was a rabid anti-semite and people seldom hold that against him.

[Sator]

Henry Ford had a profound influence on Hitler with his ideas about a global Jewish conspiracy. You can find passages plagiarised almost word for word from Ford's book The Eternal Jew in Mein Kampf. To my knowledge Hitler exhibits no similar signs of having properly studied Wagner's writings. Yet nobody is writing books about Ford being the Prophet and Hitler the Executioner of his thoughts, while calling for mass boycotts or blanket bans of Ford cars. Nor has the question of whether Ford cars should be banned in Israel been debated in the Israeli Supreme Court. I am not even aware of any protests by Jews against Ford. A quick search shows that Ford was the 9th most popular car manufacturer in Israel during 2000, and in 2009 Ford models ranked prominently in certain sales categories.

[jbuck919]

90% of people who hate Wagner have no idea what they are talking about. The ignorance about his works and theories is depressing when we think about his importance in the history of music and culture.

By the way: Martin Luther was a rabid anti-semite and people seldom hold that against him.

Autres temps, autres moeurs.

By which I mean, not that it was OK for Luther to hate Jews, but that by the middle of the 19th century people should have known better and at least a few did.

[slofstra]

RebLem,

You know about German reparations to Israel after the war? I believe that VW Beatles, if they weren't actually part of the reparations, were available there very cheaply at the time (early post-war), and they were among the few cars Israelis could afford then.

Probably trivial, but they are VW Beetles. Just in case Paul McCartney is reading.

[slofstra]

Here is one of the endless paradoxes in life - Wagner, one of the glories of Western culture - not many, Jewish or not, would deny that - and one of the base antisemites glorified by the world's worst despot.

Ah the mysteries of human existence. So we do what we must - live with it.

Despots will ride whatever serves to their advantage - religion, music, film. Ask Shostakovich about this. Some things can be co-opted and some things cannot. Wagner could quite easily, but then so could Beethoven.

Actually, now that I think about it, the real reason Hitler used Wagner had little to do with Wagner's anti-Semitism, since that pogrom was doing fine without Wagner's help, but more to do with Wagner's creation of a German-based mythology. Who knows, if Hitler had won the war we'd all be reading Wagner instead of Homer.

[slofstra]

Yes, the guy was fabulously egocentric. He could have been a case of repressed homosexuality, as Professor Adler put it. And his anti-semitism just won't go away.

I don't like Wagner. And I especially don't like people who make a public "spill" out of Wagner.

So much so that you've started one yourself.

Now that's a paradox.

[scytheavatar]

What I find especially absurd is when people try to find anti-Semitic messages hidden in Wagner's works... apparently Parsifal, which has such a strong pacifist theme that the nazis had to place a de facto ban on, is about a Aryan hero who overcomes a Jewish stereotype.... how the heck anyone could come to that conclusion is something I cannot understand.

[lennygoran]

>What I find especially absurd is when people try to find anti-Semitic messages hidden in Wagner's works...<

I wonder if the best example of that is in Die Meistersinger?

Wiki says:
"The Wagner scholar Barry Millington has advanced the idea that Beckmesser represents a Jewish stereotype, whose humiliation by the aryan Walther is an onstage representation of Wagner's antisemitism.[13] Millington argued in his 1991 "Nuremberg Trial: Is There Anti-Semitism in 'Die Meistersinger'?" that common antisemitic stereotypes prevalent in 19th-century Germany were a part of the "ideological fabric" of "Die Meistersinger" and that Beckmesser embodied these unmistakable antisemitic characteristics.[14] Millington's article spurred significant debate among Wagner scholars including Charles Rosen [15], Hans Rudolph Vaget,[16] Paul Lawrence Rose,[17] and Karl A. Zaenker.[18]"

Well all of the above didn't stop me from seeing and loving Die Meistersinger when the Met did it--and what an incredible magnificent production it was--Ben Heppner wasn't chopped liver either!

I love Wagner's operas--even Rienzi which unfortunately I've only heard but have never seen.

I last heard it while driving around in my old 1999 Ford Escort a few weeks ago on the cassette player--I guess between my love of that Ford despite Henry Ford's antisemitic views and love of Wagner's operas despite his antisemtism I better stay out of Israel for awhile! Regards, Len

[piston]

Yes, the guy was fabulously egocentric. He could have been a case of repressed homosexuality, as Professor Adler put it. And his anti-semitism just won't go away.

I don't like Wagner. And I especially don't like people who make a public "spill" out of Wagner.

So much so that you've started one yourself.

Now that's a paradox.

Yeah, I should not have expressed that I'm fed up with all this political b.s. so as not to create a "spill" here on CMG. Makes a lot of sense. I'm blown away. Let's employ self-censorship, please, and there won't be a "spill." But fed up, we remain.

[Sator]

What I find especially absurd is when people try to find anti-Semitic messages hidden in Wagner's works...

The argument goes that you can assume a priori that the only legitimate interpretation of Wagner is the one expounded by the Nazi propaganda machine. Therefore everything has to be forced to fit with that lunatic, narrow minded viewpoint. You are an Enemy if you dare to stand up to it or question it.

For example you are expected to interpret the Ring as a struggle between the blond haired and blue eyed Aryan gods and the Nibelungs, who are Jews - because the bearded, dark haired and hook nosed dwarfs are a racial caricature of Jews. The Ring is about the apocalyptic Final Solution to get rid of the Jews. This is a good example of Jew spotting. For example, Beckmesser is supposed to be a Jew, and apparently so too is Kundry.

The trouble with these busy Jew spotters in firstly that unlike Shakespeare's Shylock no character is clearly and definitively stated as being Jewish in any of Wagner's works. Next the Jew spotters get excited in pointing out that any wanderer in Wagner is a Jew. I supposed Kundry is kind of wanderer, as is the Flying Dutchman. Most importantly it makes Wotan as the Wanderer a Jew. Hang on there - doesn't that mean that the chief of the Germanic gods is Jewish? WHOOPS!

In actual fact, that isn't that funny at all. The thing about great art is that you can interpret it in many ways, and each generation that comes along with find an interpretation that is meaningful them. You can actually interpret Wotan as a kind of Moses like character, wandering through the desert and wilderness, who ultimately grants wisdom and enlightenment to the world by bringing about an end to the old polytheisim. Carl Jung certainly pointed out Wotan has strong parallels with the wrathful and vengeful Yahweh of the Old Testament. So a Jewish interpretation of the Ring is as valid a Nazi one. The question is why you would want to give preferential validity to the Nazi view, or worse still insist that it is the only possible interpretation.

Likewise, you can see the Ring from a Marxist point of view as the destruction of the corrupt old religious order. As the old world order goes up in flames, freedom is granted to humanity, as man becomes the master of his own destiny rather than being enslaved to the gods (ie enslaved to the old religious world order, where religion is the opiate of the people). Again, this is not to say that this is the only interpretation, only that is one possible way of looking at it amongst innumerable others, because you can do that with great art.

It is such a shame that people get themselves stuck in the rut of just one very petty interpretation propounded by the Nazis propaganda machine, and stubbornly refuse to see beyond that. I just don't see why you would hand victory to the Nazis in this way. This is doubly so when you consider that the Ring is about the untold destruction and suffering brought on the world by the blind lust for power.

[Sator]

>What I find especially absurd is when people try to find anti-Semitic messages hidden in Wagner's works...<

I wonder if the best example of that is in Die Meistersinger?

Wiki says:
"The Wagner scholar Barry Millington has advanced the idea that Beckmesser represents a Jewish stereotype, whose humiliation by the aryan Walther is an onstage representation of Wagner's antisemitism.[13] Millington argued in his 1991 "Nuremberg Trial: Is There Anti-Semitism in 'Die Meistersinger'?" that common antisemitic stereotypes prevalent in 19th-century Germany were a part of the "ideological fabric" of "Die Meistersinger" and that Beckmesser embodied these unmistakable antisemitic characteristics.

Here we go, even before I could click the Submit button on my last post the Jew Spotting in this thread has begun. Note that the sport of Jew Spotting goes hand in hand with official Nazi propaganda views of Wagner.

Nobody ever mentions that Beckmesser is a caricature of Edwuard Hanslick, who was not Jewish. Nor unlike Shylock, is Beckmesser ever properly identified as being Jewish. However, the way things work is that people start with the assumption that the Nazi propagandists are always a priori correct about Wagner and therefore interpretations much be constructed to show that Nazi ideology permeates Wagner's work and that this is the only correct way to view things.