The diversity of Montserrat Caballé is ... incredible!

Post by **Lance** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:47 pm

I have many favourite sopranos, including Joan Sutherland, Rita Streich and Montserrat Caballé, the latter being the only one of that particular trio who is still living. Today, I was listening to a fabulous disc called “Montserrat Caballé - Friends for Life.” This appears on RCA/BMG CD 42538, issued in 1997 but, apparently, never in the USA. The “friends” include tracks with Freddie Mercury, Bruce Dickinson, Vangelis, Johnny Logan, Gotthard, Gino Vannelli, Khadia Nin, Carlos Cano, Hulmut Lotti, Lisa Nilsson, René Froger, and Die Prinzen. To all this contemporary music, the Caballé voice stands out with a gorgeous quality even against the voice of Queen's Freddie Mercury. A special sound comes from her performances with Vangelis.

I cannot think of a soprano who brings such “dignity” to music that many of in the classical vein might otherwise dismiss.

For me, Caballé continues to be among the top sopranos in the history of recording. What say you?

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:02 pm

Lance, Caballe is one of my favorites. From Salome to Norma, she could do no wrong with me. A superlative artist who shone onstage at the Met for many outstanding performances, that my wife and I were forunate enough to witness, including Tosca and Luisa Miller. Her operatic discography is simply stunning. For example, her EMI Manon Lescaut is thrilling. One of the greatest voices ever

+

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 pm

Caballé had a God given voice, that´s a fact, but she also had her limitations as a performer.
She was at her best in Bel Canto, to me her finest recordings are Rossini´s Elisabetta and Guillaume Tell, Donizetti´s Gemma di Vergy (still waiting to be released on cd), Mozart´s Cosi fan Tutte and Verdi´s Aida and Luisa Miller.
I liked her less in Verismo. She didn´t have the temperament or the necessary steel in the voice for Tosca or Turandot for example, even though she did produce some heavenly phrases in the Solti recording of La Bohéme.
Still I think she was unlucky on records. She never recorded some of her finest roles: Semiramide, and both of Verdi´s Leonoras, but she did record roles that were not really suitable for her low soprano voice like Lucia and Elvira in I Puritani. She was better endowed for the Isabella Colbran roles than for the higher Grisi roles.
Live her voice could be wondrous, if you ever had a chance to hear her float a pianissimo you knew it was one of the highlights of you life.

dirkronk · Post by **dirkronk** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:04 pm

As I've repeated here often enough, I'm not a fan of many voices, but Caballe is certainly one. When I first heard her voice, back in LP days, it was one of her earliest albums of operatic arias that first attracted me. But the clincher was the first time I heard her sing zarzuelas. Good lord, she was amazing in those.

Dirk

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:21 am

Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:07 pm

josé echenique wrote:Caballé had a God given voice, that´s a fact, but she also had her limitations as a performer.
She was at her best in Bel Canto, to me her finest recordings are Rossini´s Elisabetta and Guillaume Tell, Donizetti´s Gemma di Vergy (still waiting to be released on cd), Mozart´s Cosi fan Tutte and Verdi´s Aida and Luisa Miller.
I liked her less in Verismo. She didn´t have the temperament or the necessary steel in the voice for Tosca or Turandot for example, even though she did produce some heavenly phrases in the Solti recording of La Bohéme.
Still I think she was unlucky on records. She never recorded some of her finest roles: Semiramide, and both of Verdi´s Leonoras, but she did record roles that were not really suitable for her low soprano voice like Lucia and Elvira in I Puritani. She was better endowed for the Isabella Colbran roles than for the higher Grisi roles.
Live her voice could be wondrous, if you ever had a chance to hear her float a pianissimo you knew it was one of the highlights of you life.

You basically said it for me. Caballe was a wonder, especially in Bel Canto roles. When she partnered with Marilyn Horne, you heard heaven in singing. 'Nuff said!

Post by **Lance** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:55 pm

Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.

Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...

Post by **Lance** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:56 pm

By the way, I've heard Montserrat is a HEAVY smoker! One of her students advised me of this.

Post by **Lance** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:57 pm

Fischer-Dieskau smoked, too. I don't know if he does any longer, however. The old (wonderful) boy is getting up in age!

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:51 pm

There are certain sopranos who are technically excellent but make me gag, and Caballe is one of those. Operatic sopranoes are an acquired taste anyway. I recently purchased my first Joan Sutherland DVD (before she passed on) and I cannot get through it. I can handle most lyric and coloratura sopranoes, and I enjoy even a few dramatic sopranoes, but there are some that still make me nauseous.

For example, comparing the following two clips, Caballe has better control, more accurate pitch, and her attacks on the top notes are more polished than Netrebko. But Netrebko's voice sounds more natural and full, and also her vibrato is less pronounced; Caballe has a highly irritating vibrato. I can appreciate the technical aspects of Caballe's voice, and even some of the high notes are thrilling, but I just can't stand listening to her in general. (Please excuse my lack of facility in trying to express what my ears tell me, as I have no musical training.) Bottom line is that voice appeal is a highly subjective thing .. for me, anyway.

Caballe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQQv39dcNE

Netrebko:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udqn2QXFgZs

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:54 pm

Lance wrote:By the way, I've heard Montserrat is a HEAVY smoker! One of her students advised me of this.

Do you mean, in the sense that she smokes a lot?

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:28 pm

Lance wrote:Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.
Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...

Once one is a fan of Maria Callas then it's sometimes difficult to enjoy any other singers in Operas she has recorded, also I am selective about who I like to hear and in many cases I don't enjoy their voice, Gheorgiu for example sounds awfully old fashioned to me, but not to most other people...I have discs with Caballe but they don't beat out the ones with other singers, same goes for Male singers, some I enjoy and many leave me cold, i'm highly selective and hard to please I guess...I don't really like Leontyne Price except in Karajan's Live Trovatore on Orfeo, and Mehta's studio version on RCA, I like Beverly Sills in the Three Queens Operas by Donizetti but nothing else, Suthland I like in Donizetti with Pavarotti and that's it except her Turandot with Mehta, Tebaldi I only like in Aida with Karajan and I like Freni's Boheme with Karajan plus the Beecham with De Los Angeles but no other Boheme inspires me except Callas, Layla Gencer is another favourite, she never recorded in the Studio so all her discs that I have are live...Tosca, Butterfly, Rigoletto, Puritani and all the other Operas I have not named there is a strong chance that I only like them with Callas...

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:49 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Lance wrote:Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.
Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...
Once one is a fan of Maria Callas then it's sometimes difficult to enjoy any other singers in Operas she has recorded, also I am selective about who I like to hear and in many cases I don't enjoy their voice, Gheorgiu for example sounds awfully old fashioned to me, but not to most other people...I have discs with Caballe but they don't beat out the ones with other singers, same goes for Male singers, some I enjoy and many leave me cold, i'm highly selective and hard to please I guess...I don't really like Leontyne Price except in Karajan's Live Trovatore on Orfeo, and Mehta's studio version on RCA, I like Beverly Sills in the Three Queens Operas by Donizetti but nothing else, Suthland I like in Donizetti with Pavarotti and that's it except her Turandot with Mehta, Tebaldi I only like in Aida with Karajan and I like Freni's Boheme with Karajan plus the Beecham with De Los Angeles but no other Boheme inspires me except Callas, Layla Gencer is another favourite, she never recorded in the Studio so all her discs that I have are live...Tosca, Butterfly, Rigoletto, Puritani and all the other Operas I have not named there is a strong chance that I only like them with Callas...

Of all the singers you mention here the one I like the most is Tebaldi.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:10 pm

slofstra wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
Lance wrote:Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.
Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...
Once one is a fan of Maria Callas then it's sometimes difficult to enjoy any other singers in Operas she has recorded, also I am selective about who I like to hear and in many cases I don't enjoy their voice, Gheorgiu for example sounds awfully old fashioned to me, but not to most other people...I have discs with Caballe but they don't beat out the ones with other singers, same goes for Male singers, some I enjoy and many leave me cold, i'm highly selective and hard to please I guess...I don't really like Leontyne Price except in Karajan's Live Trovatore on Orfeo, and Mehta's studio version on RCA, I like Beverly Sills in the Three Queens Operas by Donizetti but nothing else, Suthland I like in Donizetti with Pavarotti and that's it except her Turandot with Mehta, Tebaldi I only like in Aida with Karajan and I like Freni's Boheme with Karajan plus the Beecham with De Los Angeles but no other Boheme inspires me except Callas, Layla Gencer is another favourite, she never recorded in the Studio so all her discs that I have are live...Tosca, Butterfly, Rigoletto, Puritani and all the other Operas I have not named there is a strong chance that I only like them with Callas...
Of all the singers you mention here the one I like the most is Tebaldi.

Chances are you have never heard (of) La Diva Turca...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla_Gencer

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:06 pm

slofstra wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
Lance wrote:Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.
Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...
Once one is a fan of Maria Callas then it's sometimes difficult to enjoy any other singers in Operas she has recorded, also I am selective about who I like to hear and in many cases I don't enjoy their voice, Gheorgiu for example sounds awfully old fashioned to me, but not to most other people...I have discs with Caballe but they don't beat out the ones with other singers, same goes for Male singers, some I enjoy and many leave me cold, i'm highly selective and hard to please I guess...I don't really like Leontyne Price except in Karajan's Live Trovatore on Orfeo, and Mehta's studio version on RCA, I like Beverly Sills in the Three Queens Operas by Donizetti but nothing else, Suthland I like in Donizetti with Pavarotti and that's it except her Turandot with Mehta, Tebaldi I only like in Aida with Karajan and I like Freni's Boheme with Karajan plus the Beecham with De Los Angeles but no other Boheme inspires me except Callas, Layla Gencer is another favourite, she never recorded in the Studio so all her discs that I have are live...Tosca, Butterfly, Rigoletto, Puritani and all the other Operas I have not named there is a strong chance that I only like them with Callas...
Of all the singers you mention here the one I like the most is Tebaldi.

Tebaldi, like Caballé, had a God given voice, but also like Caballé she had important limitations. She often seemed content with making beautiful sounds but hardly ever went deeper into building a character. Her Cio-Cio San and Mimí were too robust to be convincing. She was not particularly successful in making a character vulnerable, so her Tosca was indistinguishable from her Liú. I always like to point out her Suor Angelica recording. She ends her aria with a beautiful pianissimo, a gorgeous note to be sure, but one that draws attention to itself and says little of the character and virtually ignores the situation. Compare it to Renata Scotto in her CBS recording or Maria Callas in her Puccini recital and you will hear the same note, certainly not as beautiful, but telling us a lot more of what is happening to the nun at that moment.
Tebaldi was often better live than in her DECCA recordings. There is no comparison between her live Vienna Andrea Chenier under Matacic and her studio recording. She is much more involved and passionate. And some of her best recordings are of role she had not sung on stage (at least up to the moment they were made) like Fanciulla del West and Don Carlos. Maybe she switched off the autopilot in roles that were new to her.

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:09 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
slofstra wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
Lance wrote:Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.
Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...
Once one is a fan of Maria Callas then it's sometimes difficult to enjoy any other singers in Operas she has recorded, also I am selective about who I like to hear and in many cases I don't enjoy their voice, Gheorgiu for example sounds awfully old fashioned to me, but not to most other people...I have discs with Caballe but they don't beat out the ones with other singers, same goes for Male singers, some I enjoy and many leave me cold, i'm highly selective and hard to please I guess...I don't really like Leontyne Price except in Karajan's Live Trovatore on Orfeo, and Mehta's studio version on RCA, I like Beverly Sills in the Three Queens Operas by Donizetti but nothing else, Suthland I like in Donizetti with Pavarotti and that's it except her Turandot with Mehta, Tebaldi I only like in Aida with Karajan and I like Freni's Boheme with Karajan plus the Beecham with De Los Angeles but no other Boheme inspires me except Callas, Layla Gencer is another favourite, she never recorded in the Studio so all her discs that I have are live...Tosca, Butterfly, Rigoletto, Puritani and all the other Operas I have not named there is a strong chance that I only like them with Callas...
Of all the singers you mention here the one I like the most is Tebaldi.
Chances are you have never heard (of) La Diva Turca...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla_Gencer

You HAVE to hear la Diva Turca in the live Forza with Di Stefano in Cologne, 1958 if memory doesn´t fail me, to know what stupendous singer she was. And wow, she was only 27 or 28 at the time!!!

John F · Post by **John F** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:28 pm

My stepfather and I went to "I Vespri Siciliani" at the Met in 1974, when Caballé was singing Elena. She was just breathtaking. Irving Kolodin must have been there the same night: "Her exquisitely defined version of 'Arrigo! ah parli a un core' in the next to the last scene aroused a storm of applause that was only quieted when the singer gestured for it to stop and let the opera continue." She later recorded the opera for RCA Victor, fine singing but not recapturing the magic of that night.

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:05 pm

Henry/Chalkperson:

As a trained voice teacher and vocal coach, I've learned to appreciate each voice for its own unique properties. I've known people who've said they disliked Callas, yet when I've played her early recordings (before 1957), they've changed their minds instantly.

Getting used to a singer can involve multiple hearings of repertoire, usually from the earlier part of his/her career, when the voice was at its best. Many of the singers that recorded in early '60's stereo actually sound better in their mono recordings (Milanov's 1953 Trovatore with Bjoerling is a good example, both for her and Leonard Warren).

Chacun a son gout, of course, but please give these other singers a chance too by giving them a full hearing at their best.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:31 pm

maestrob wrote:Henry/Chalkperson:

As a trained voice teacher and vocal coach, I've learned to appreciate each voice for its own unique properties. I've known people who've said they disliked Callas, yet when I've played her early recordings (before 1957), they've changed their minds instantly.

Getting used to a singer can involve multiple hearings of repertoire, usually from the earlier part of his/her career, when the voice was at its best. Many of the singers that recorded in early '60's stereo actually sound better in their mono recordings (Milanov's 1953 Trovatore with Bjoerling is a good example, both for her and Leonard Warren).

Chacun a son gout, of course, but please give these other singers a chance too by giving them a full hearing at their best.

I don't understand your point, there are voices I like and voices I don't, as I don't buy or listen to Aria discs then why should I take a chance on a full Opera with a singer that I am not sure I will like and that will not justify the price, I have a number of Caballe recordings on Opera D'Oro's super budget label and her voice does not impress me that much, so why would I waste money on Full Price Studio Opera Recordings, the same goes for many other singers, do you think that I am basing my opinion of Tebaldi on one disc, I have a lot of her recordings and I don't enjoy them that much, same goes for the other singers I name like Price and Sills, i'm telling you the recordings I like her in, would you prefer me to list all the recordings I don't like her in, what would be the point of that...i'm not some neophite listener, I have close to a thousand complete Opera recordings, I was giving my opinion on them, if you look at my list and compare it to Jose and you will see that he lists some of the shortcomings of these singers I list, can't you realize that this is also why I don't like the singers, I am not skilled or eloquent enough to explain why I don't like them, but, I can name Leyla Gencer as a favourite and the next thing you know Jose is talking about her incredible recording from 1957 of Forza with Votto...I have listened to as many Opera Singers as I can find, from Nellie Melba and Rosa Ponselle to Patricia Petibon and Kate Royal, the first two enthrall me, Petibon is a great singer but not my kind of voice, Royal is simply a flavor of the month material, picked as much because of her looks than her singing, take Kathryn Jenkins for example, she sells millions of CD's but has never sung in a complete Opera in her life, do you seriously expect me to waste money on her...why do we all have to like the same people, you and I have similar taste quite a lot of the time but not here in this instance, of course i'm opinionated but there is a reason for it, i'm very passionate about Classical and Opera Music, i'm not going to stay silent on a topic like Caballe in order not to rock the boat, i'm going to tell you she is not my cup of tea, and Lo and Behold, Henry does not like her either...as I have said many times, this is like Football or Baseball teams, we all support our favourites, if you don't like my team and think yours is better then accept it as my opinion, don't tell me I have not spent enough time trying to like your team, I speak from expreience, not from a snap judgement made from one disc...

PS we can do this with Male Opera Singers too if you like, give me Bjorling, De Stefano, Schipa, and Gobbi, but spare me Vickers, Alagna or Del Monaco, the list could go on and on...

Also, one has to limit what one collects and who the Conductors, Instrumentalists and Singers we want to explore are, at least allow me to make my own selection for my collection rather than trying to push Caballe and others who you (as a trained coach) want to try to change my opinion of...

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:04 pm

maestrob wrote:Henry/Chalkperson:

As a trained voice teacher and vocal coach, I've learned to appreciate each voice for its own unique properties. I've known people who've said they disliked Callas, yet when I've played her early recordings (before 1957), they've changed their minds instantly.

Getting used to a singer can involve multiple hearings of repertoire, usually from the earlier part of his/her career, when the voice was at its best. Many of the singers that recorded in early '60's stereo actually sound better in their mono recordings (Milanov's 1953 Trovatore with Bjoerling is a good example, both for her and Leonard Warren).

Chacun a son gout, of course, but please give these other singers a chance too by giving them a full hearing at their best.

I'm somewhat out of my depth with the more experienced opera aficionados that post here. It's quite possible that I could revise my opinion of Caballe with more frequent listening. However, that's not likely to happen any time soon. First, I'm not fond of opera aria CD's, unless they represent the result of one recital so that you have a homogeneous work. And when it comes to vocal CDs I would sooner listen to lieder and oratorio than opera. I do like opera DVDs but some of the older artists are not well represented on DVD. For this reason, Caballe will likely stay well down my list.

arepo · Post by **arepo** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:30 pm

Lance wrote:Hmmm, I can't imagine such a thing, that you don't enjoy her singing (that much). To me, it is, in a word, glorious. To each his own, of course.
Chalkperson wrote:Sorry, Lance, i'll pass on Caballé, never enjoyed her singing that much...

Well, whaddya expect? He also hates the wonderful and very talented Simon Rattle!!

Caballe's voice is a stunner!
From her glorious pianissimos to her stupendous long held last note in that fanous "Don Carlo" there is no one like her.
And who can ever forget her spectacular Orange Norma with Jon Vickers when she continued to sing through that "sunami" as the wind blew her headdress off, yet she persevered.
If you are not familiar with that historic video, do search it out. It is very special.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:48 pm

arepo wrote:Well, whaddya expect? He also hates the wonderful and very talented Simon Rattle!!

Caballe's voice is a stunner!
From her glorious pianissimos to her stupendous long held last note in that fanous "Don Carlo" there is no one like her.
And who can ever forget her spectacular Orange Norma with Jon Vickers when she continued to sing through that "sunami" as the wind blew her headdress off, yet she persevered.
If you are not familiar with that historic video, do search it out. It is very special.

It's OK I can't stand Vickers either...

arepo · Post by **arepo** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:57 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
arepo wrote:Well, whaddya expect? He also hates the wonderful and very talented Simon Rattle!!

Caballe's voice is a stunner!
From her glorious pianissimos to her stupendous long held last note in that fanous "Don Carlo" there is no one like her.
And who can ever forget her spectacular Orange Norma with Jon Vickers when she continued to sing through that "sunami" as the wind blew her headdress off, yet she persevered.
If you are not familiar with that historic video, do search it out. It is very special.
It's OK I can't stand Vickers either...

Uh huh! That figures!

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:31 pm

arepo wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
arepo wrote:Well, whaddya expect? He also hates the wonderful and very talented Simon Rattle!!

Caballe's voice is a stunner!
From her glorious pianissimos to her stupendous long held last note in that fanous "Don Carlo" there is no one like her.
And who can ever forget her spectacular Orange Norma with Jon Vickers when she continued to sing through that "sunami" as the wind blew her headdress off, yet she persevered.
If you are not familiar with that historic video, do search it out. It is very special.
It's OK I can't stand Vickers either...
Uh huh! That figures!

I never said she did not have a stunning voice, obviously she has the talent, all I said was that her voice does not appeal to me...

Rattle is pretty much a boring and talentless eunuch now, I feel...

lennygoran · Post by **lennygoran** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:05 am

>all I said was that her voice does not appeal to me...<

But would you meet her for lunch sometime--or maybe even buy her a drink!

Regards, Len [fleeing]

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:04 am

lennygoran wrote:>all I said was that her voice does not appeal to me...<

But would you meet her for lunch sometime--or maybe even buy her a drink! Regards, Len [fleeing]

In my case, she would have to promise not to sing, and agree to pay for the lunch, or at least pick up her own tab.

Just to lend a little weight to the question of personal taste trumping technical judgement, I would rather listen to Bob Dylan's singing than that of Montserrate Caballe. (At least as long as Dylan continues his boycott of operatic arias.)

lennygoran · Post by **lennygoran** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:12 am

>In my case, she would have to promise not to sing, and agree to pay for the lunch, or at least pick up her own tab.<

And for me I'd only pay for her lunch if she agreed to sing Casta diva for me--hers is the best I've ever heard it sung! Regards, Len

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:12 pm

lennygoran wrote:>all I said was that her voice does not appeal to me...<

But would you meet her for lunch sometime--or maybe even buy her a drink! Regards, Len [fleeing]

I don't drink, so that gets me off the hook...

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:17 pm

arepo wrote:Well, whaddya expect? He also hates the wonderful and very talented Simon Rattle!!

Good Lord! What a statement, that must be the first time that I've read such a glowing description of the SSRattle.

lennygoran · Post by **lennygoran** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:09 pm

>I don't drink, so that gets me off the hook...<

On the drinking yes but what about the lunch? Regards, Len

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:17 am

After this discussion, I watched (again) the Callas at Covent Garden DVD. Now, that is an absolutely rivetting performance, and something Caballe would not be capable of, at least based on a few fleeting views of her on youtube. Although Callas' top notes can be a little too steely/ metallic, she is mesmerizing and enthralling, both to watch and listen. I wonder if Callas had never sung at all, if she could have made it as an actress.

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:31 pm

slofstra wrote:After this discussion, I watched (again) the Callas at Covent Garden DVD. Now, that is an absolutely rivetting performance, and something Caballe would not be capable of, at least based on a few fleeting views of her on youtube. Although Callas' top notes can be a little too steely/ metallic, she is mesmerizing and enthralling, both to watch and listen. I wonder if Callas had never sung at all, if she could have made it as an actress.

Visconti said she was the greatest actress since Eleonora Duse, and of course Pasolini made a film about Medea with her, not a great film to be sure, but it´s not her fault. What a loss that in he 50´s opera was not filmed as often as it is today.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:09 pm

josé echenique wrote:
slofstra wrote:After this discussion, I watched (again) the Callas at Covent Garden DVD. Now, that is an absolutely rivetting performance, and something Caballe would not be capable of, at least based on a few fleeting views of her on youtube. Although Callas' top notes can be a little too steely/ metallic, she is mesmerizing and enthralling, both to watch and listen. I wonder if Callas had never sung at all, if she could have made it as an actress.
Visconti said she was the greatest actress since Eleonora Duse, and of course Pasolini made a film about Medea with her, not a great film to be sure, but it´s not her fault. What a loss that in he 50´s opera was not filmed as often as it is today.

Absolutely a great loss. What accounts for that, because certainly the technology was there? I suppose that film was considered a lowbrow (or middlebrow) medium, so that might account for it. Staging is another issue. I like the way staging is addressed in the recent La Boheme directed by Robert Dornholm (with Netrebko/ Villazon). That is, special soundstage set or sets were built for the opera movie production. Thus, you have the kind of control of placement and sound that a conventional theatre stage provides, but still providing the expanded visual variety and interest that a movie should provide. I suppose musicals have always been done this way, but many of my opera DVDs are either badly filmed stage productions, often with cheap-looking sets, or they are improbably shot on location with overdubs. Neither is very satisfactory.

Anyway, the neglect of opera on film, for whatever reason, is very sad.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:14 pm

lennygoran wrote:>I don't drink, so that gets me off the hook...<

On the drinking yes but what about the lunch? Regards, Len

I don't eat lunch, because I work 9.30-8 every day, I have not had lunch in 20 years my job simply does not allow it, I listen to Music till 3am and get up at 8.45, but, on weekends I sleep till 2pm, so I can't do lunch on weekends either...

lennygoran · Post by **lennygoran** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:20 pm

>I don't eat lunch, because I work 9.30-8 every day, I have not had lunch in 20 years my job simply does not allow it,<

Can't you make an exception for Caballe--she's shattered! I'd bet you make an exception for Callas. Regards, Len

Steinway · Post by **Steinway** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:42 pm

I believe Caballe is one of the all time greats and I am also a big favorite of Simon Rattle's work, as well.

I suppose it's what makes the discussion of music and musicians so fascinating. Is there a right or wrong on these matters?

Of course not.

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:44 pm

slofstra wrote:
josé echenique wrote:
slofstra wrote:After this discussion, I watched (again) the Callas at Covent Garden DVD. Now, that is an absolutely rivetting performance, and something Caballe would not be capable of, at least based on a few fleeting views of her on youtube. Although Callas' top notes can be a little too steely/ metallic, she is mesmerizing and enthralling, both to watch and listen. I wonder if Callas had never sung at all, if she could have made it as an actress.
Visconti said she was the greatest actress since Eleonora Duse, and of course Pasolini made a film about Medea with her, not a great film to be sure, but it´s not her fault. What a loss that in he 50´s opera was not filmed as often as it is today.
Absolutely a great loss. What accounts for that, because certainly the technology was there? I suppose that film was considered a lowbrow (or middlebrow) medium, so that might account for it. Staging is another issue. I like the way staging is addressed in the recent La Boheme directed by Robert Dornholm (with Netrebko/ Villazon). That is, special soundstage set or sets were built for the opera movie production. Thus, you have the kind of control of placement and sound that a conventional theatre stage provides, but still providing the expanded visual variety and interest that a movie should provide. I suppose musicals have always been done this way, but many of my opera DVDs are either badly filmed stage productions, often with cheap-looking sets, or they are improbably shot on location with overdubs. Neither is very satisfactory.

Anyway, the neglect of opera on film, for whatever reason, is very sad.

In fact the technology was not really there in the 50´s. Visconti advised Callas not to film in the black and white TV system because he thought it was unworthy of her art. He wanted to make movie opera films with her but in 70mm Technicolor, projects too expensive and unviable at the time. A great pity to be sure. Renata Tebaldi did make several TV opera films and in spite of the lousy quality it´s fascinating to see how she moved on stage. I find very amusing the last part of Act 1 of La Bohéme she filmed with Björling. When she loses the key neither of them dares to kneel in the floor and look for it. Björling looks and acts like the Swedish Ambassador all dignified and serious. And yet isn´t it priceless to see that bit of Act 2 of Tosca with Callas and Gobbi? Two larger than life personalities giving everything they have. The myth is confirmed and reborn right in front of your eyes.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:49 pm

josé echenique wrote:
slofstra wrote:
josé echenique wrote:
slofstra wrote:After this discussion, I watched (again) the Callas at Covent Garden DVD. Now, that is an absolutely rivetting performance, and something Caballe would not be capable of, at least based on a few fleeting views of her on youtube. Although Callas' top notes can be a little too steely/ metallic, she is mesmerizing and enthralling, both to watch and listen. I wonder if Callas had never sung at all, if she could have made it as an actress.
Visconti said she was the greatest actress since Eleonora Duse, and of course Pasolini made a film about Medea with her, not a great film to be sure, but it´s not her fault. What a loss that in he 50´s opera was not filmed as often as it is today.
Absolutely a great loss. What accounts for that, because certainly the technology was there? I suppose that film was considered a lowbrow (or middlebrow) medium, so that might account for it. Staging is another issue. I like the way staging is addressed in the recent La Boheme directed by Robert Dornholm (with Netrebko/ Villazon). That is, special soundstage set or sets were built for the opera movie production. Thus, you have the kind of control of placement and sound that a conventional theatre stage provides, but still providing the expanded visual variety and interest that a movie should provide. I suppose musicals have always been done this way, but many of my opera DVDs are either badly filmed stage productions, often with cheap-looking sets, or they are improbably shot on location with overdubs. Neither is very satisfactory.

Anyway, the neglect of opera on film, for whatever reason, is very sad.
In fact the technology was not really there in the 50´s. Visconti advised Callas not to film in the black and white TV system because he thought it was unworthy of her art. He wanted to make movie opera films with her but in 70mm Technicolor, projects too expensive and unviable at the time. A great pity to be sure. Renata Tebaldi did make several TV opera films and in spite of the lousy quality it´s fascinating to see how she moved on stage. I find very amusing the last part of Act 1 of La Bohéme she filmed with Björling. When she loses the key neither of them dares to kneel in the floor and look for it. Björling looks and acts like the Swedish Ambassador all dignified and serious. And yet isn´t it priceless to see that bit of Act 2 of Tosca with Callas and Gobbi? Two larger than life personalities giving everything they have. The myth is confirmed and reborn right in front of your eyes.

Well, the technology was there .. you said it yourself ... 70mm Technicolor. So you could say that the economics were not there, or perceived not to be there. I recognize also that you could not set up 70mm cameras and just shoot live for 2-3 hours. It was done in bits, and the equipment can overheat. But here's what I think ... they were all making a good buck on the audio recordings and the live stage, so why rock the boat. And there has always been an unnecessary bias to live performance in the fine arts, still today. I believe it could have been done, even economically, but no-one did it. We certainly have a lot of great (and some not so great) musicals from that era, but no opera.

I will look for the La Bohéme scene since I love Björlings singing. Even though he always has this certain tear/ sob in his voice, which evokes great pathos, but it seems like it's always the same trick.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:06 pm

slofstra wrote:Well, the technology was there .. you said it yourself ... 70mm Technicolor. So you could say that the economics were not there, or perceived not to be there. I recognize also that you could not set up 70mm cameras and just shoot live for 2-3 hours. It was done in bits, and the equipment can overheat. But here's what I think ... they were all making a good buck on the audio recordings and the live stage, so why rock the boat. And there has always been an unnecessary bias to live performance in the fine arts, still today. I believe it could have been done, even economically, but no-one did it. We certainly have a lot of great (and some not so great) musicals from that era, but no opera.

I will look for the La Bohéme scene since I love Björlings singing. Even though he always has this certain tear/ sob in his voice, which evokes great pathos, but it seems like it's always the same trick.

70mm Movie Film is at least 4 times more expensive than 35mm film to shoot, 35mm film runs vertically, 70mm film runs horizontally, it's a huge frame compared to 35mm, the cameras and lenses needed are much bigger and way more expensive, really it's only for use in what were called Epic Films, it makes total sense that they could not get the budget to shoot it in that format...

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:05 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
slofstra wrote:Well, the technology was there .. you said it yourself ... 70mm Technicolor. So you could say that the economics were not there, or perceived not to be there. I recognize also that you could not set up 70mm cameras and just shoot live for 2-3 hours. It was done in bits, and the equipment can overheat. But here's what I think ... they were all making a good buck on the audio recordings and the live stage, so why rock the boat. And there has always been an unnecessary bias to live performance in the fine arts, still today. I believe it could have been done, even economically, but no-one did it. We certainly have a lot of great (and some not so great) musicals from that era, but no opera.

I will look for the La Bohéme scene since I love Björlings singing. Even though he always has this certain tear/ sob in his voice, which evokes great pathos, but it seems like it's always the same trick.
70mm Movie Film is at least 4 times more expensive than 35mm film to shoot, 35mm film runs vertically, 70mm film runs horizontally, it's a huge frame compared to 35mm, the cameras and lenses needed are much bigger and way more expensive, really it's only for use in what were called Epic Films, it makes total sense that they could not get the budget to shoot it in that format...

Okay, but what about shooting in 35mm then ... back in the 50s and 60s?

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:13 pm

There were a few opera/film projects in the 50´s. Sir Thomas Beecham´s interesting film of the Tales of Hoffmann (sung in English) is still available on dvd, and there was an Aida acted by Sofia Loren and sung by Renata Tebaldi that was heavily cut, poorly synchronized and has not aged well.
I think the first completely successful opera film was Ingmar Bergman´s 1972 Magic Flute for the Swedish TV. Worldwide it was distributed as a film and had a very respectable box office, but most important, it was highly regarded as a movie, Charles Chaplin said that it was one of the finest movies ever made. Bergman´s ideas on how to make opera films are still used today. I mean, the guy knows something about movies. That opened the door for Zeffirelli´s Traviata and Julia Migenes´ Carmen.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:49 pm

josé echenique wrote:There were a few opera/film projects in the 50´s. Sir Thomas Beecham´s interesting film of the Tales of Hoffmann (sung in English) is still available on dvd, and there was an Aida acted by Sofia Loren and sung by Renata Tebaldi that was heavily cut, poorly synchronized and has not aged well.
I think the first completely successful opera film was Ingmar Bergman´s 1972 Magic Flute for the Swedish TV. Worldwide it was distributed as a film and had a very respectable box office, but most important, it was highly regarded as a movie, Charles Chaplin said that it was one of the finest movies ever made. Bergman´s ideas on how to make opera films are still used today. I mean, the guy knows something about movies. That opened the door for Zeffirelli´s Traviata and Julia Migenes´ Carmen.

Good info; thanks so much.

AntonioA · Post by **AntonioA** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:41 pm

I saw Caballe in 1990 in Stockholm , a recital with Miguel Zanetti on piano and José de Udaeta playing castanets in some of the Spanish numbers. A wonderful evening!

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