What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

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Sator
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What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Sator » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:15 pm

It is a bit of a tragedy that this thread was lost to the crash. Thank goodness for Google cache.

I started the thread to encourage interest in Haydn symphonies - especially less known and less often performed ones. The internet would be a poorer place without it. So, here it is again:

In all my many years participating in online discussion of music, I actually can't recall anyone asking this question, oddly enough. So I thought I would kick things off by listing my own favourites.

Nr 90. I just adore this work from start to finish. For me it embodies everything I love about Haydn - the divine wit, all the brilliance of the drama, and the all embracing humanity. How can this work not leave you smiling and totally exhilarated?

Nr 91. Haydn was obviously on a roller here and spun out two of my favourite of his compositions in succession. The sense of grandeur and sweep of the opening movement is thrilling.

Nr 100 "Military". For some strange reason, the late London symphonies are generally my least favourite, the one exception is rather shamelessly the Nr 100. Maybe the Turkish cymbals make me think of the Beethoven 9th?

Nr 45. The Sturm und Drang symphonies are some of my absolutely favourite Haydn. They are generally a thorn in the side for anyone who likes to pigeon hole "Papa Haydn" as being a writer of twee and polite "Classical" symphonies. They are as explosively Romantic as anything from a later composer - Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, you name it and Haydn matches them note for note. Heck the literary writers associated with the Sturm und Drang movement from this time period are considered quintessential Romantics - so why not just throw the conventional pigeon holes right out and admit that Haydn is the Ur-Romantic?

Nr 59. This is another unusual inclusion, but this was the first Haydn symphony that I really fell in love with. For that reason, it remains in my affections. I have always imagined that Prokofiev must have had this work in mind when he wrote his "Classical Symphony".

Nr 82 L'Ours. The first movement gets me every time, but I love the work as it holds together overall.

Nr 26. Lamentations. This is probably an unusual pick. However, I've always a had a soft spot for this Sturm und Drang symphony. While I also like La Passione, for whatever reason Nr 26 is the one I have always felt closer to.

Nr 48 Maria Theresia. This has the same Schwung that sweeps me away when I listen to Nr 91.

I guess that short list of personal favourites will do me for now. I don't pretend to know all of the symphonies well, but in my exploration over the years these are ones that have stuck in my memory. I would certainly be interested in what other people here consider to be their personal favourites.

Replies:

Wallingford

#100 in G - the "Military"

John F
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:12 pm

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I guess my list would run to about 3 dozen, if I were to count them. All the Paris and London symphonies, without exception, and something like the same number again of earlier symphonies. Even so, my list wouldn't include all of Sator's favorites, and his list omits some of my special favorites. So by the time everybody had contributed to this thread, the inclusions might even outnumber the omissions. And that would be only right.

Oh, all right, here's one of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex0X-2dT ... r_embedded

Sator
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:47 pm

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I couldn't say I knew the Nr 39 exceptionally well. I will study it a bit more closely.

The first movement is, at certain points, absolutely spectacular. The slow movement has a nice main theme. The finale has some spirit too.

But, as I say, I will listen more closely over the next few days. It may grow on me more.

josé echenique
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:59 pm

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I agree with John, I love practically all of them, but if you insist I have a little something for #88.

Lance
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:10 pm

45, 53 (Imperial), 88, and the "London" symphonies. The rarely heard "Imperial" has always remained a favorite since I head the RCA Stokowski recording many years ago. There are many others I love as well.

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Sator
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:38 pm

The 88 has been familiar to my, mostly due to the famous recording by Furtwaengler, for many years. However, I must say I have never been particularly strongly wowed by the 88. My favourite recording of it is the Antal Dorati. I must even confess to preferring the Nr 89 - which I nearly included in my short list. The first movement presents a greater grandeur vision than that of the 88. The 88 just seems like a cuter and sweeter little brother in a Papa Haydnesque way.

Unspeakable philistine that I am, I must further confess to being generally modestly indifferent to most of the London symphonies, although I know them well. There are generally plenty of other less frequently played symphonies that I would much rather listen to.


Fergus
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:38 pm

That is a difficult question indeed. Once again the Paris Symphonies must get a mention, The Farewell, No. 45 and Nos. 6, 7 & 8 also get honourable mention.

Chalkperson
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:34 pm
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No question in my mind...Number 22, The Philosopher... :D


jbuck919
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:03 pm

Military Band Specialist

John F wrote:
I guess my list would run to about 3 dozen, if I were to count them.


I think Sator has (maybe unintentionally) hit the nail on the head by citing symphonies from all over the Haydn catalogue. I think it is safe to say that the greatest works are weighted heavily in favor of the highest numbers, but there are wonderful things all along the way. Part of my listening program not long ago was these symphonies, and with great regularity there popped up movements in symphonies of no general repute that made my ears member up with astonishment (the CMG nanny replaces the word I actually, innocently, used--if you member me, do I not bleed?). For some reason, I remember the Adagio from the Symphony No. 51, which I'm afraid is not on YouTube.

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John F
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:23 pm
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For those who are moved to listen to any of these, there's a web site where you can hear all 107 of Haydn's symphonies, in three different integral recordings, movement by movement with the score. It's:

http://www.haydn107.com/index.php

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hangos
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:02 pm
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No.95 in C minor - never a dull moment, superb development in first movement, cracking finale - this symphony reminds me of his finest string quartets, no pomp or swagger (unlike some of the London set!)
Solti's LPO recording is ideal!
Martin


diegobueno
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:23 pm
Winds Specialist

There's scarcely a dud in the whole run of them. Here are a few that come to mind right away, and some special features of each:

No. 102 in B flat. The slow introduction and slow movement have some of the wisest music Haydn ever wrote, and the first movement's allegro has such a wonderful energy. The
quick canonic entries in the development and the timpani roll that leads to the recap are a couple of wonderful details.

No. 103, in E flat, the "Drumroll". A hint of "Dies Irae" in the slow intro. A nice set of double variations in C minor/C major. I especially like the coda, where he breaks free from the variations and veers from C major to E flat major with a ticking figure in the violins (reminiscent of a similar moment in the funeral march of Beethoven's Eroica).

No. 91 in E flat. The invertible counterpoint of the opening theme, whereby the melody and bass immediately swap parts. The waltz-like trio of the minuet is lovely.

No. 47 in G major. The minuet where the B section is the A section played backwards (likewise with the trio).

No. 46 in B major. Who else ever wrote a symphony in that key? The minuet suddenly reappears in the finale (just as in Beethoven's 5th)

No. 51 in B flat, which I call "The Ball-buster", because the horn solo in the 2nd movement goes so painfully high one fears for the physical side-effects. The second horn immediately answers by going down into the depths of pedal tone territory.

No. 49 in F minor, "La Passione". Alternately solemn and impassioned, this is one serious symphony.

No. 45 in F# minor, "Farewell". Quite a lovely and poignant ending when not played for a joke.

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RebLem
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:31 pm

John is right, of course. There are wonderful things all the way along. And I have to say I listened to Haydn's 1st Symphony a few days ago, and even it ain't bad!

When I first got interested in classical music, Haydn's #100 "The Military," in the version by Hermann Scherchen, was one of the first three works I really got to like and relate to. It and the other two would, in fact, make a pretty good symphony orchestra program. The other two were the Overture and Venusberg Music from Tannhauser by Wagner done by Bruno Walter, and Stravinsky's Firebird conducted allegedly by the composer, but probably "ghost conducted" by Robert Craft.

So, #100 is still definitely on my list. #93, with is obscene, blatty bassoon note, is the REAL Surprise Symphony (you absolutely MUST have the Szell/Cleveland performance of this, as he does it like no one else), although #94, "Surprise" is another of my faves. #101 "Clock" and #102 complete those of my faves that are in the London Symphony set (#93, of course, is not part of that set).

#88 is one of Haydn's most complex and tuneful works in the symphonic form. I love many of the Sturm und Drang symphonies, #22 "Der Philosoph," and the early "Time of Day" symphonies.

One of my biggest favorites, though, is one that I have never seen anyone else list. Its a symphony which, so far as I know, has never been recorded by anyone except those who have recorded them all--#72, especially the first movement, which sounds to me remarkably Elgarian, believe it or not.

John F

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:57 pm

Another symphony of about the same time that shows off the horns - 4 of them! - is #31, called the Hornsignal. Toscanini conducted it for NBC, and Alan Gilbert included it in a New York Philharmonic concert recently - the Phil horns predictably disgraced themselves. In this YouTube clip, the Connecticut River Valley Orchestra does well. You can skip the chat and begin at 1:30.


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jbuck919
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:40 am

Military Band Specialist

John F wrote:
- the Phil horns predictably disgraced themselves.


Now wait a minute. What is going on here that I do not know about?

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stenka razin

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This is an impossible question to answer. I would choose equally all 12 'London' Symphonies. It is simply unthinkable to select just one. I would like to add dozens more, but my fellow CMGers have already mentioned many of my other favorite Haydn Symphonies. Each one is a jewel of great value. :D :D :D :D

Regards,
Mel 8)


John F
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:14 am
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jbuck919 wrote:
John F wrote:
- the Phil horns predictably disgraced themselves.

Now wait a minute. What is going on here that I do not know about?

Philip Myers. Philharmonic principal horn, is king of the clams when he's off form, and there are others of that persuasion in the section too. it was a struggle to get through the symphony, and a struggle to listen.

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val
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:03 am
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To name only ten:

The 44, 48, 82, 84, 86, 93, 100, 102, 103 & 104.


Sator
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:18 pm

I must say I've enjoyed people's lists of particularly personally memorable symphonies.

I am also quite partial to Nr 44 "Mourning", a tremendous Sturm und Drang symphony. Also surprisingly missing off anyone's list is Nr 60 Il Distratto - what an extraordinary final movement!

I must admit that I tend not to list as many of the late London symphonies because they seem to get played and recorded to the exclusion of many other fine symphonies. The works from throughout Haydn's career often have their own virtues that are different from the late works, without being in any way inferior to them.

Sator
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:24 pm
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hangos wrote:
No.95 in C minor - never a dull moment, superb development in first movement, cracking finale - this symphony reminds me of his finest string quartets, no pomp or swagger (unlike some of the London set!)
Solti's LPO recording is ideal!
Martin


Another strong recommendation is Fricsay's RIAS Symphony recording.

John F

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:51 pm

And Fritz Reiner's with the RCA Victor Symphony - I believe the last recording he made.

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bombasticDarren
Post subject: Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:03 pm

I cherish many of Haydn's symphonies; but the ones that stands out proudest are No.88 and No.96 'Miracle' (this one preferrably in the Colin Davis/RCO recording) :D


Chalkperson

I would add Nos. 4+5+6 to the List...Le Matin, Le Midi Le Soir... :D
Last edited by Sator on Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by John F » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:29 am

Well done, Sator! All that's missing are a few YouTube links, and here are mine:



John Francis

Sator
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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Sator » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:05 am

BTW my two favourite replies were this one:
For those who are moved to listen to any of these, there's a web site where you can hear all 107 of Haydn's symphonies, in three different integral recordings, movement by movement with the score. It's:

http://www.haydn107.com/index.php

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John Francis
It was worth taking a look at that website since I don't own a study score of all of the symphonies.

...and this one:
diegobueno
Winds Specialist

There's scarcely a dud in the whole run of them. Here are a few that come to mind right away, and some special features of each:

No. 102 in B flat. The slow introduction and slow movement have some of the wisest music Haydn ever wrote, and the first movement's allegro has such a wonderful energy. The
quick canonic entries in the development and the timpani roll that leads to the recap are a couple of wonderful details.

No. 103, in E flat, the "Drumroll". A hint of "Dies Irae" in the slow intro. A nice set of double variations in C minor/C major. I especially like the coda, where he breaks free from the variations and veers from C major to E flat major with a ticking figure in the violins (reminiscent of a similar moment in the funeral march of Beethoven's Eroica).

No. 91 in E flat. The invertible counterpoint of the opening theme, whereby the melody and bass immediately swap parts. The waltz-like trio of the minuet is lovely.

No. 47 in G major. The minuet where the B section is the A section played backwards (likewise with the trio).

No. 46 in B major. Who else ever wrote a symphony in that key? The minuet suddenly reappears in the finale (just as in Beethoven's 5th)

No. 51 in B flat, which I call "The Ball-buster", because the horn solo in the 2nd movement goes so painfully high one fears for the physical side-effects. The second horn immediately answers by going down into the depths of pedal tone territory.

No. 49 in F minor, "La Passione". Alternately solemn and impassioned, this is one serious symphony.

No. 45 in F# minor, "Farewell". Quite a lovely and poignant ending when not played for a joke.
Some of these works singled out for attention here contain some lovely writing for winds, and it was nice to have this pointed out to listen for specifically. BTW I too find the invertible counterpoint in the opening movement of Nr 91 to be just amazing. One of the reasons Haydn is such a strong symphonist is that his counterpoint is so damned good - in a way that just floors you rather than leaving you thinking "oh that's nice". Listening to the finale of 95 also reminded me of this.

I should also mention that I have been listening to some excerpts from the Adam Fischer complete cycle online and I have been very impressed at just how consistently excellent the performances are. There is a just rightness to almost everything he does.

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Heck148 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:41 am

Sator - that's quite a good list you've posted. :)
Haydn symphonies are a real treasure trove of musical invention and enjoyment.

I'd add for sure
#88 - a perfect gem
#51 - love the stratospheric horn parts
#31 - another neat one for horns
#22 - after a kind of stodgy [philosophical??] fitst mvt - this one just takes off - I love the pairs of English horns and horns chasing each other all over the score.
#104 - a "big" symphony - definitely on the scale of the late Mozarts, or even LvB #1....

but these lists just scratch the surface - there are so many wonderful ones...

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by stenka razin » Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:18 pm

How can a Haydn lover choose between so many beautiful Symphonies? Well, let me say that the 'London' Symphonies No's 93-104, all twelve of them will do quite nicely. 8)


Regards,
Mel 8)
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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by diegobueno » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:37 pm

One thing I miss that doesn't seem to have made it into the digital realm -- actually I'm hoping somebody proves me wrong -- is the "Appendices" volume of the Antal Dorati Haydn symphony set. This was a 2 LP set with a number of interesting items on the periphery of the Haydn canon. It contained the Symphony no. A and B, three different alternate finales to the Imperial Symphony (no. 53), an extended version of the finale of no. 103 including a passage deleted by Haydn that H.C. Robbins Landon felt he should have kept in, and a spurious version of the Philosopher (no. 22) that was published in Paris and uses flutes instead of English horns and contains a curious anonymous slow movement that Haydn could have never written or approved of.

It was a fascinating collection. The vinyl languishes in a box upstairs.
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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Wallingford » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:42 pm

#100 in G - the "Military"
If I could tell my mom and dad
That the things we never had
Never mattered we were always ok
Getting ready for Christmas day
--Paul Simon

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Sator » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:50 pm

diegobueno wrote:One thing I miss that doesn't seem to have made it into the digital realm -- actually I'm hoping somebody proves me wrong -- is the "Appendices" volume of the Antal Dorati Haydn symphony set. This was a 2 LP set with a number of interesting items on the periphery of the Haydn canon. It contained the Symphony no. A and B, three different alternate finales to the Imperial Symphony (no. 53), an extended version of the finale of no. 103 including a passage deleted by Haydn that H.C. Robbins Landon felt he should have kept in, and a spurious version of the Philosopher (no. 22) that was published in Paris and uses flutes instead of English horns and contains a curious anonymous slow movement that Haydn could have never written or approved of.

It was a fascinating collection. The vinyl languishes in a box upstairs.
I recently downloaded the Dorati set from iTunes fairly inexpensively. I know, I know the lossy format, the sound quality blah blah... However, I just don't have room either for too many big chunky collections of CDs. Still, I have ordered the complete Adam Fischer cycle on CD (even though my conscience told me I don't have any more room for bricks like this). Having the Dorati set digitally accessible at your fingertips is a great plus. You don't have to get up and pull out CDs or LPs out of your brick stored in that big box in your attic. It encourages rapid exploration.

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Prometheus » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:50 pm

diegobueno wrote:One thing I miss that doesn't seem to have made it into the digital realm -- actually I'm hoping somebody proves me wrong -- is the "Appendices" volume of the Antal Dorati Haydn symphony set. This was a 2 LP set with a number of interesting items on the periphery of the Haydn canon. It contained the Symphony no. A and B, three different alternate finales to the Imperial Symphony (no. 53), an extended version of the finale of no. 103 including a passage deleted by Haydn that H.C. Robbins Landon felt he should have kept in, and a spurious version of the Philosopher (no. 22) that was published in Paris and uses flutes instead of English horns and contains a curious anonymous slow movement that Haydn could have never written or approved of.

It was a fascinating collection. The vinyl languishes in a box upstairs.
Hello!

I purchased the Dorati box last year and had no idea that such alternates existed and was certainly surprised when finding the bonus disc. A and B are elsewhere in the box, but the others mentioned are on the last disc. I copied the track list from Amazon in case you wanted to see the exact tracks.


Symphony in E flat, H.I No.22 -"The Philosopher" - 2nd Version - Presto
Symphony in E flat, H.I No.22 -"The Philosopher" - 2nd Version - Andante grazioso
Symphony in E flat, H.I No.22 -"The Philosopher" - 2nd Version - Finale: Presto
Symphony in D, H.I No.53 - "L'Impériale" - Alternative Ending A - Finale, Capriccio - Moderato Symphony in D, H.I No.53 - "L'Impériale" - Alternative Ending A - Finale, Capriccio - Moderato
Symphony in D, H.I No.53 - "L'Impériale" - Alternative Ending C - Presto
Symphony in D, H.I No.53 - "L'Impériale" - Alternative Ending D - "Overture in D" - Presto
Symphony in C, H.I No.63 - "La Roxelane" - 1st Version - 1. Allegro
Symphony in C, H.I No.63 - "La Roxelane" - 1st Version - 2. "La Roxelane". Allegretto (o più tosto allegro)
Symphony in C, H.I No.63 - "La Roxelane" - 1st Version - 3. Menuet e Trio - Allegretto
Symphony in C, H.I No.63 - "La Roxelane" - 1st Version - 4. Finale - prestissimo
Symphony in E flat, H.I No.103 - "Drum Roll" - Finale - alternative ending - Finale: Allegro con spirito -alternative ending

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by Sator » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:29 am

stenka razin wrote:How can a Haydn lover choose between so many beautiful Symphonies? Well, let me say that the 'London' Symphonies No's 93-104, all twelve of them will do quite nicely. 8)


Regards,
Mel 8)
What a cop out of an answer. Come on, you can do better! :lol:

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by John F » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:32 am

The only way to do better than all 12 of the London symphonies would be to add the 6 Paris symphonies as well. :)
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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by diegobueno » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:58 pm

Prometheus wrote: Hello!

I purchased the Dorati box last year and had no idea that such alternates existed and was certainly surprised when finding the bonus disc. A and B are elsewhere in the box, but the others mentioned are on the last disc. I copied the track list from Amazon in case you wanted to see the exact tracks.
Splendid!
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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:10 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
John F wrote:
- the Phil horns predictably disgraced themselves.

Now wait a minute. What is going on here that I do not know about?

Philip Myers. Philharmonic principal horn, is king of the clams when he's off form, and there are others of that persuasion in the section too. it was a struggle to get through the symphony, and a struggle to listen.
The latest cultural acquisition of Stony Creek just moved here from Boise, Idaho, where she played horn in their orchestra and taught at the university. She informs me that the problem with the Haydn symphonies that are horn challenges is that they require specialized players, whereas a contract requires the NY Philharmonic's usual horn contingent. (She seems to know what she is talking about as she described Mr. Myers and his playing in some detail.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by John F » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:37 am

Interesting. No doubt the high horn parts in Haydn's early and middle symphonies are a challenge, but the NBC Symphony's players coped with them well enough when Toscanini conducted the Hornsignal. (Of course AT on the podium was a different proposition altogether from Alan Gilbert.) And I'm afraid Philip Myers and some of his colleagues have clammed up the joint in pieces that offer no such special challenge. Just one example: when Giuseppe Sinopoli conducted Mahler 3 in the 1990s, Myers and his colleagues took turns and clammed nearly every note in the opening statement for the 8 horns, "Spring marches in." Disgraceful. Not that they were always this unreliable; Kurt Masur was full of praise for Myers and got him to play more consistently, maybe by reducing the orchestra's overall dynamic level from what Zubin Mehta had called for so that the players didn't have to force, I don't know. Maybe your horn-playing friend does?
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Re: What are your Favourite Haydn Symphonies?

Post by maestrob » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:03 am

John F wrote:Interesting. No doubt the high horn parts in Haydn's early and middle symphonies are a challenge, but the NBC Symphony's players coped with them well enough when Toscanini conducted the Hornsignal. (Of course AT on the podium was a different proposition altogether from Alan Gilbert.) And I'm afraid Philip Myers and some of his colleagues have clammed up the joint in pieces that offer no such special challenge. Just one example: when Giuseppe Sinopoli conducted Mahler 3 in the 1990s, Myers and his colleagues took turns and clammed nearly every note in the opening statement for the 8 horns, "Spring marches in." Disgraceful. Not that they were always this unreliable; Kurt Masur was full of praise for Myers and got him to play more consistently, maybe by reducing the orchestra's overall dynamic level from what Zubin Mehta had called for so that the players didn't have to force, I don't know. Maybe your horn-playing friend does?
My nephew, who is a professional horn player on the West Coast (San Diego, Pacific Symphonies and has his own touring quintet) made the point with me recently that horn players are constantly afraid of over-playing & thus burning out. Maestros OTOH love powerful brass (i.e. Solti), so there's a constant tug of war going on. One needs a strong conductor to get horn players to really produce for the concert......

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