My next Bethoven Symphony cycle should be?

[Seán]

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

[THEHORN]

The Zinman/Tonhalle set is definitely worth getting, and the way the woodwinds embellish some of their lines is really interesting. Altogether different ! Zinman will be doing a similar HIP influenced Beethoven cycle with the New York Philharmonic next year, toward the end of the season.
But really , I suggest you try cycles by other composers whose symphonies are not quite as famous as Beethoven's.
,too,possibly before you get another Beethoven set.
The set of all seven Ernst Toch symphonies on CPO with Alun Francis and the Berlin R.S.O. is worth a try,
or possibly the three Max Bruch symphonies if you can find the recordings of Masur on Philips and James Conlon on EMI. These are sadly neglected and underrated,in my humble opinion, even though not every one who has heard them likes them. Or symphonies by Alberic Magnard, Albert Roussel, the other four Saint-Saens symphonies besides the familiar "organ" symphony. You can't go wrong with the classic Martinon/EMI set.
Great as Beethoven's symphonies are, there so much more that deserves to be heard !

[Lance]

Seán, if I were in the market for another Beethoven 9 set (and I'm not), of those you mention, I would probably go Abbado/BPO or Zinman/Tonhalle. Both are outstanding, of course, but I would give a slight edge to Abbado. I would love to know which Beethoven 9 sets you already have.

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

[Modernistfan]

There are a lot of options, but not the Hogwood or van Immerseel on period instruments! If you must go with period instruments, try the John Eliot Gardiner on DG Archiv. Personally, and this is just my own preference or prejudice, I would stay far, far away from any period instruments in Beethoven.

[Seán]

Seán, if I were in the market for another Beethoven 9 set (and I'm not), of those you mention, I would probably go Abbado/BPO or Zinman/Tonhalle. Both are outstanding, of course, but I would give a slight edge to Abbado. I would love to know which Beethoven 9 sets you already have.

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

Hi Lance, I have sets by Toscanini, Klemperer, Bernstein, Cluytens (it's marvelous). HvK (1962) (a benchmark), Mackerras (surprisingly good), Blomstedt (vastly underrated), Harnoncourt (a delight), Bruggen (lovely), Gardiner (mixed, worth it for the breathtaking Fifth and Seventh), Solti and Vanska (a consistently good cycle). One can never have too many Beethoven cycles.

[Seán]

... I suggest you try cycles by other composers whose symphonies are not quite as famous as Beethoven's.
,too,possibly before you get another Beethoven set.
The set of all seven Ernst Toch symphonies on CPO with Alun Francis and the Berlin R.S.O. is worth a try,
or possibly the three Max Bruch symphonies if you can find the recordings of Masur on Philips and James Conlon on EMI. These are sadly neglected and underrated,in my humble opinion, even though not every one who has heard them likes them. Or symphonies by Alberic Magnard, Albert Roussel, the other four Saint-Saens symphonies besides the familiar "organ" symphony. You can't go wrong with the classic Martinon/EMI set.
Great as Beethoven's symphonies are, there so much more that deserves to be heard !

Thanks Robert, I agree with you on Magnard and in particular Roussel, I love their works. I must get the Saint-Saens cycle.

[RebLem]

What sets do you have now?

I would say five complete sets are essential. In chronological order, they are

Furtwangler
Toscanini
Szell
Solti
Gardiner

Any of those you don't have should be priority purchases. I have about 20 sets, and I value others besides the above. Once you have all of these, we can talk of the others.

[CharmNewton]

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

Did you ever get Solti/Chicago?

John

[Holden Fourth]

Rene Leibowitz - if you can find it

[Seán]

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

Did you ever get Solti/Chicago?

John

Yes, I did, but I rarely listen to it.

[stenka razin]

Sean, get the Abbado 2001 DG budget priced box set. It is truly one for the ages. Highly recommended, my friend.


Regards,
Mel

[josé echenique]

The Abbado live in Italy and the Zinman are very fine, but I do recommend the Jos van Immerseel, superbly played by any standard and with the best Pastoral in period instruments. You can ask Fergus about this set since he has already heard it.
By the way, a new Chailly recording with the Gewandhaus is coming soon. I already have ordered it because of the marvelous orchestra.

[CharmNewton]

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

Did you ever get Solti/Chicago?

John

Of those you mention, I have Abbado and Zinman and prefer the latter. I didn't like the sound on the Abbado set (I believe this is the same cycle that is on DVD, where it may sound better). It seems opaque and lacking in orchestral color. Zinman is generally propulsive--quick tempi, sharp accents and outstanding playing. Well-recorded too.

I just picked up Solti's second Chicago cycle (it's a clearance item from ArkivMusic.com, $30 plus S&H) and really like it. Tempi seem quicker than from the earlier cycle and the low strings are well captured. Only disappointment--I wished the horns were more prominent in the 7th. They should really blow you away, especially the CSO horns. Overall, the new 7th is still better than the older one, though.

John

[karlhenning]

There are a lot of options, but not the Hogwood or van Immerseel on period instruments! If you must go with period instruments, try the John Eliot Gardiner on DG Archiv. Personally, and this is just my own preference or prejudice, I would stay far, far away from any period instruments in Beethoven.

FWIW, what I heard of Hogwood's Beethoven hasn't invited me back for more.

Seán, not long ago I acquired the Harnoncourt Beethoven box, and I love it.

Cheers,
~Karl

[maestrob]

Hi, Sean!

I'm a fan of both the Abbado/Berlin (NOT the Vienna) and the Zinman sets. Both are based on similar conducting decisions. I lean towards the Berlin as the obviously better orchestra.

Enjoy!

[diegobueno]

Rene Leibowitz - if you can find it

I was going to buy his Sibelius cycle.

[Wallingford]

Sean, even though I'd go with Zinman, let me make one unmentioned pick:

KRIPS.

They're solid, mittel-European interpretations. Out of print, but Amazon still has it for (hopefully) reasonable prices.

GO WITH THE (pricier) IMPORT, ON THE EVEREST LABEL. The cheapies were mastered from the atrocious-sounding cassette edition.

[stenka razin]

The Abbado live in Italy and the Zinman are very fine, but I do recommend the Jos van Immerseel, superbly played by any standard and with the best Pastoral in period instruments. You can ask Fergus about this set since he has already heard it.
By the way, a new Chailly recording with the Gewandhaus is coming soon. I already have ordered it because of the marvelous orchestra.

jose, I also preordered the Chailly box set. I think Riccardo will produce a winner, my friend.


Regards,
Mel

[slofstra]

Sean, I would get Simon Rattle's set with the VPO.
If you have an SACD player, then Haitink's LSO Live set is astounding.

[Sator]

I am probably going to be lynched for saying this but I really liked the Rattle cycle. No, I am not a Rattle devotee or anything. I just thought that his Beethoven cycle was excellent. I'd take it over the Solti any day. In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti.

[Sator]

KRIPS.

They're solid, mittel-European interpretations.

Whatever that means! Weingartner (a pupil of Hans von Bülow) is a Mitteleuropäer too, yet sounds more like Zinman in many ways.

[stenka razin]

I am probably going to be lynched for saying this but I really liked the Rattle cycle. No, I am not a Rattle devotee or anything. I just thought that his Beethoven cycle was excellent. I'd take it over the Solti any day. In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti.

But you must admit that Solti is quite exciting and the Chicago Symphony plays beautifullly and is well recorded by Decca.


Regards,
Mel

[Lance]

I concur, Seán ... Leibowitz. It used to be on a marvelous stereo LP set issued by Reader's Digest. It came out on CD on, I believe, two labels. One of them I have is a 5-CD set on Scribendum [No. 041]. Chesky Records also issued the same recordings individually and eventually on a Limited Edition gold-boxed set. The Chesky CD set is pricey at around $115, but I found nothing inferior about the Scribendum set when A/B'd to the original stereoLPs. It seems as though I remember a CMG thread on this. Our friend Neil (Wallingford) may be able to give you added info on the Leibowitz recordings and which way to "go" in purchasing them.

Rene Leibowitz - if you can find it

I was going to buy his Sibelius cycle.

[Istvan]

"In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti."


I've got a high-speed DIY drill. Shall we fix an appointment for the end of the month?

[bombasticDarren]

Of the list provided, I would go for the Zinman cycle. I like the Abbado and Hogwood sets, but the Immerseel didn't appeal based on the excerpts I have heard.

I have long since concluded that the rest of my life will consist of me buying and listening to more and more Beethoven symphony cycles. There will be no end....

Note: I am very excited about the Chailly/Leipzig release

[Lance]

Funny, I have always felt the same way about Solti, but not quite to the degree you mention. Fortunately my teeth are in excellent shape. I never liked drilling ... but would consider listening to Solti if I had a choice of being drilled! I have always wondered why I haven't been carried away by Solti where others go into ecstasy about his conductorial work. What am I missing?

"In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti."


I've got a high-speed DIY drill. Shall we fix an appointment for the end of the month?

[Chung]

Seán, if I were in the market for another Beethoven 9 set (and I'm not), of those you mention, I would probably go Abbado/BPO or Zinman/Tonhalle. Both are outstanding, of course, but I would give a slight edge to Abbado. I would love to know which Beethoven 9 sets you already have.

I am wondering which of the following I should get:

Abbado/BPO;
van Immerseel/Anima Eterna;
Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music or
Zinman/Tonhalle.

Any suggestions?

Hi Lance, I have sets by Toscanini, Klemperer, Bernstein, Cluytens (it's marvelous). HvK (1962) (a benchmark), Mackerras (surprisingly good), Blomstedt (vastly underrated), Harnoncourt (a delight), Bruggen (lovely), Gardiner (mixed, worth it for the breathtaking Fifth and Seventh), Solti and Vanska (a consistently good cycle). One can never have too many Beethoven cycles.

From the original list, I'd lean toward Abbado (I take it that this would be his 3rd cycle (maroon box) rather than the 2nd one (gray box)). I also have Hogwood's and Zinman's sets which I find interesting to hear occasionally but neither of them have pushed aside my favourite sets by Blomstedt, Szell and Wand.

[Seán]

FWIW, what I heard of Hogwood's Beethoven hasn't invited me back for more.

Seán, not long ago I acquired the Harnoncourt Beethoven box, and I love it.

Cheers,
~Karl

Yes, I am very fond of the Harnoncourt set.

[Seán]

I am probably going to be lynched for saying this but I really liked the Rattle cycle. No, I am not a Rattle devotee or anything. I just thought that his Beethoven cycle was excellent. I'd take it over the Solti any day. In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti.

Perhaps if you had yours ears drilled instead it might open up your senses to the magic of Georg Solti.....only kidding!

[Seán]

Funny, I have always felt the same way about Solti, but not quite to the degree you mention. Fortunately my teeth are in excellent shape. I never liked drilling ... but would consider listening to Solti if I had a choice of being drilled! I have always wondered why I haven't been carried away by Solti where others go into ecstasy about his conductorial work. What am I missing?

"In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti."


I've got a high-speed DIY drill. Shall we fix an appointment for the end of the month?

Lance, we will have to agree to disagree on Georg Solti, he was a great conductor in my book, he certainly does have his detractors here on CMG, but that don't bother me.

[Seán]

Of the list provided, I would go for the Zinman cycle. I like the Abbado and Hogwood sets, but the Immerseel didn't appeal based on the excerpts I have heard.

I have long since concluded that the rest of my life will consist of me buying and listening to more and more Beethoven symphony cycles. There will be no end....

Note: I am very excited about the Chailly/Leipzig release

Now Darrren, that's two thngs you've written that strike a chord with me.

[stenka razin]

Funny, I have always felt the same way about Solti, but not quite to the degree you mention. Fortunately my teeth are in excellent shape. I never liked drilling ... but would consider listening to Solti if I had a choice of being drilled! I have always wondered why I haven't been carried away by Solti where others go into ecstasy about his conductorial work. What am I missing?

"In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti."


I've got a high-speed DIY drill. Shall we fix an appointment for the end of the month?

Lance, we will have to agree to disagree on Georg Solti, he was a great conductor in my book, he certainly does have his detractors here on CMG, but that don't bother me.

Sean, count me as a Solti admirer, too, my friend.

Regards,
Mel

[CharmNewton]

Sean, even though I'd go with Zinman, let me make one unmentioned pick:

KRIPS.

They're solid, mittel-European interpretations. Out of print, but Amazon still has it for (hopefully) reasonable prices.

GO WITH THE (pricier) IMPORT, ON THE EVEREST LABEL. The cheapies were mastered from the atrocious-sounding cassette edition.

The current edition from Madacy Entertainment (in the tin box) was mastered from the three-track originals. See the review on Amazon.com, where the reviewer publishes an e-mail he received from the re-mastering engineer. These sound pretty good, much better than the Bescol edition from the late 1980s, but have reversed channels. The engineer mentions that he went back and re-mastered them to sound even better, but it isn't known if Madacy ever issued the re-mastered recordings.

John

[Marc]

FWIW, what I heard of Hogwood's Beethoven hasn't invited me back for more.

Seán, not long ago I acquired the Harnoncourt Beethoven box, and I love it.

Cheers,
~Karl

Yes, I am very fond of the Harnoncourt set.

If you already have and like Harnoncourt, I would't go for Zinman. In fact, except maybe for No. 9, I feel that Harnoncourt's better and more inspired than Zinman in the category HIP-influenced with a 'modern' band.

For HIP on period instruments, Van Immerseel's a very good choice IMO: thoughtful and vivid playing without overpowering. I consider his integral the best PI set, together with Brüggen's recordings for Philips.

[Holden Fourth]

Sean, even though I'd go with Zinman, let me make one unmentioned pick:

KRIPS.

They're solid, mittel-European interpretations. Out of print, but Amazon still has it for (hopefully) reasonable prices.

GO WITH THE (pricier) IMPORT, ON THE EVEREST LABEL. The cheapies were mastered from the atrocious-sounding cassette edition.

The current edition from Madacy Entertainment (in the tin box) was mastered from the three-track originals. See the review on Amazon.com, where the reviewer publishes an e-mail he received from the re-mastering engineer. These sound pretty good, much better than the Bescol edition from the late 1980s, but have reversed channels. The engineer mentions that he went back and re-mastered them to sound even better, but it isn't known if Madacy ever issued the re-mastered recordings.

John

I have the tin box and can confirm that these did not come from LP recordings.

[premont]

If you already have and like Harnoncourt, I would't go for Zinman. In fact, except maybe for No. 9, I feel that Harnoncourt's better and more inspired than Zinman in the category HIP-influenced with a 'modern' band.

Yes agreed. Compared to Harnoncourt - maybe except as to the Pastoral - Zinman seems almost superfluous. I would consider Mackerras a strong contender (preferably the Liverpool recording).

For HIP on period instruments, Van Immerseel's a very good choice IMO: thoughtful and vivid playing without overpowering. I consider his integral the best PI set, together with Brüggen's recordings for Philips.

Yes, I agree that these two sets are excellent, but have you heard the Hanover band / Roy Goodman or the new set with Krivine, and if so - what do you think of them?

[Wallingford]

Sean:

In response to Lance's suggestion about the Leibowitz set, it's impossible to go wrong with it interpretation-wise. I believe I heard one disc of the Chesky remasterings (I had the Reader's Digest vinyl set these last two decades), and the sound is at least up to par on the CD.

I see on Amazon's UK site that the five single discs are the only way to go.

[slofstra]

I am probably going to be lynched for saying this but I really liked the Rattle cycle. No, I am not a Rattle devotee or anything. I just thought that his Beethoven cycle was excellent. I'd take it over the Solti any day. In fact, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than listen to Solti.

I find many of the performances in that set exciting and stirring, even frantic. But I also like the magisterial type of Beethoven from the likes of Klemperer.

[Marc]

For HIP on period instruments, Van Immerseel's a very good choice IMO: thoughtful and vivid playing without overpowering. I consider his integral the best PI set, together with Brüggen's recordings for Philips.

Yes, I agree that these two sets are excellent, but have you heard the Hanover band / Roy Goodman or the new set with Krivine, and if so - what do you think of them?

Nope. I realize I should have written: of the PI sets that I know ....

Honestly, I'm not a Beethoven Beast, but I will take your advices about Mackerras, Goodman et al in consideration, without promising anything of course.

Other sets that I own and like very very much are the earlier mentioned golden oldie Leibowitz (sublime!), and the newer 'oldie' Haitink (his 3rd Beet symphs integral, with the LSO).

[david johnson]

Rene Leibowitz - if you can find it

I was going to buy his Sibelius cycle.

'conductor René Leibowitz went so far as to describe Sibelius as "the worst composer in the world" '

heheh...please inform as to when it is released to the public!

[Seán]

Sean:

In response to Lance's suggestion about the Leibowitz set, it's impossible to go wrong with it interpretation-wise. I believe I heard one disc of the Chesky remasterings (I had the Reader's Digest vinyl set these last two decades), and the sound is at least up to par on the CD.

I see on Amazon's UK site that the five single discs are the only way to go.

Thanks Neil, they are available on Amazon uk as single cds.

[premont]

Honestly, I'm not a Beethoven Beast

So much more surprising you are that well versed in recordings of his symphonies.

Other sets that I own and like very very much are the earlier mentioned golden oldie Leibowitz (sublime!), and the newer 'oldie' Haitink (his 3rd Beet symphs integral, with the LSO).

Yes, Leibowitz, Other fine sets are the often overlooked Kletzki and Maag.
Haitink (3) is on my wish-list.
Krivine is still in my to-be-listened-to pile.

[Marc]

Honestly, I'm not a Beethoven Beast

So much more surprising you are that well versed in recordings of his symphonies.

That's a nice thing to say .... yet not true.

Complete sets I know are: Konwitschny/Gewandhaus Leipzig (only on music cassette, my dad has the vinyl box), Kegel/Dresden (only on vinyl), Leibowitz, Blomstedt, Sawallisch, Norrington (first one, PI), Zinman, Haitink 3 and Van Immerseel.

Also some stuff from the integrals by Brüggen (again, only on cassette, but my memories are very positive) and Harnoncourt.

And a cherished 5 & 7 combi disc with Carlos Kleiber. And a 9th with Haitink/Concertgebouw/Popp et al. And another 9th with Herreweghe. And various discs with Von Karajan (most of them part of the DG Galleria series -> 2nd DG cycle of the 70s). And a mono Karajan/Philharmonia playing the 5th. And a DVD with Eduard van Beinum conducting the 3rd.

And probably some other stuff I forgot to mention.

Not an impressive list at all, compared to the amount of (in)complete recordings of Beet's symphonic output. I mean, there must be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them, if not more. And I do not inted to hunt after them; my bow is pointed at other musical treats.

[premont]

Complete sets I know are: Konwitschny/Gewandhaus Leipzig (only on music cassette, my dad has the vinyl box), Kegel/Dresden (only on vinyl), Leibowitz, Blomstedt, Sawallisch, Norrington (first one, PI), Zinman, Haitink 3 and Van Immerseel.

Also some stuff from the integrals by Brüggen (again, only on cassette, but my memories are very positive) and Harnoncourt.

And a cherished 5 & 7 combi disc with Carlos Kleiber. And a 9th with Haitink/Concertgebouw/Popp et al. And another 9th with Herreweghe. And various discs with Von Karajan (most of them part of the DG Galleria series -> 2nd DG cycle of the 70s). And a mono Karajan/Philharmonia playing the 5th. And a DVD with Eduard van Beinum conducting the 3rd.

Nice list BTW, except that I never have warmed to Karajan´s Beethoven.

my bow is pointed at other musical treats.

So is my bow, but I have kept my passion for Beethoven, which I inherited from my father.

[Marc]

Complete sets I know are: [....]

Nice list BTW, except that I never have warmed to Karajan´s Beethoven.

The mono recording with the Philharmonia is very good IMO.

my bow is pointed at other musical treats.

So is my bow, but I have kept my passion for Beethoven, which I inherited from my father.

The Beatles arrive in the US of A for the first time.
Press conference at JFK Airport on February 7th 1964.
Q: What do you think of Beethoven?
Ringo Starr: Great. Especially his poems.



This time for real:
Beethoven is great. Period.
But I have almost his entire output on disc, and in his case I switched from purchasing to just listening.

[Istvan]

That's odd: Klemperer has only been mentioned once. Has anyone heard the live version made in Vienna with the Philharmonia in the 1960s? If I were to consider a set, this would come very high but I know nothing of the sound.

I have what some would consider an eccentric choice of Beethoven symphonies:

Full cycles: Mengelberg; Katsaris (piano).
"Eroica": Solti with VPO and LSO (the latter on BBC Legends is a winner in my view).
4th, 5th and 6th: Celibidache
7th: Solti with VPO
9th: Solti (1st CSO version); Karajan, 1972, considered a classic but too smooth and without surprises (in my arrogant opinion).

[bombasticDarren]

I am probably going to be lynched for saying this but I really liked the Rattle cycle. No, I am not a Rattle devotee or anything. I just thought that his Beethoven cycle was excellent

Agreed. I am extremely partial to Rattle's Beethoven efforts so far

[Seán]

I am probably going to be lynched for saying this but I really liked the Rattle cycle. No, I am not a Rattle devotee or anything. I just thought that his Beethoven cycle was excellent

Agreed. I am extremely partial to Rattle's Beethoven efforts so far

Sorry lads, I have ordered the Abbado set.

[slofstra]

Honestly, I'm not a Beethoven Beast

So much more surprising you are that well versed in recordings of his symphonies.

That's a nice thing to say .... yet not true.

Complete sets I know are: Konwitschny/Gewandhaus Leipzig (only on music cassette, my dad has the vinyl box), Kegel/Dresden (only on vinyl), Leibowitz, Blomstedt, Sawallisch, Norrington (first one, PI), Zinman, Haitink 3 and Van Immerseel.

Also some stuff from the integrals by Brüggen (again, only on cassette, but my memories are very positive) and Harnoncourt.

And a cherished 5 & 7 combi disc with Carlos Kleiber. And a 9th with Haitink/Concertgebouw/Popp et al. And another 9th with Herreweghe. And various discs with Von Karajan (most of them part of the DG Galleria series -> 2nd DG cycle of the 70s). And a mono Karajan/Philharmonia playing the 5th. And a DVD with Eduard van Beinum conducting the 3rd.

And probably some other stuff I forgot to mention.

Not an impressive list at all, compared to the amount of (in)complete recordings of Beet's symphonic output. I mean, there must be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them, if not more. And I do not inted to hunt after them; my bow is pointed at other musical treats.

I also have that van Beinum DVD. I believe this was a television program on the 10th anniversary of VE-day? Whatever, it was some important occasion. Fascinating to watch, even just from the standpoint of how the orchestra and audience are dressed.

[slofstra]

That's odd: Klemperer has only been mentioned once. Has anyone heard the live version made in Vienna with the Philharmonia in the 1960s? If I were to consider a set, this would come very high but I know nothing of the sound.

I have what some would consider an eccentric choice of Beethoven symphonies:

Full cycles: Mengelberg; Katsaris (piano).
"Eroica": Solti with VPO and LSO (the latter on BBC Legends is a winner in my view).
4th, 5th and 6th: Celibidache
7th: Solti with VPO
9th: Solti (1st CSO version); Karajan, 1972, considered a classic but too smooth and without surprises (in my arrogant opinion).

This is the set I have, and I believe they were recorded in the 1950s. Great set, but the 9th is excruciatingly bad. The concertoes with Barenboim are among the best I've heard.