Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

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Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:25 am

This is a subject approached once before, initiated by our beloved JARED. But I've been involved with listening to various versions of this absolutely grand oratorio of FJ Haydn's, The Creation. It's amazing how many recordings one can acquire of a great work like this. I post the ones I have and will be curious to know which ones are favourites of CMGers, or ones that I have NOT acquired - that I should? (There's no more room on the shelves, remember!) :oops:

01) Sony Classical 48045 / Bernstein - Raskin, Young, Reardon
02) Decca 480 4716 / Munchinger - Ameling, Spoorenberg, Krenn, Krause
03) DGG 437 380 / Markevitch - Seefried, Holm, Borg
04) DGG 449 761 / Karajan - Janowitz, Ludwig, Fischer-Dieskau, Wunderlich (w/Krenn substituted for Wunderlich after death)
05) DGG 474 919 / Bernstein/VPO - Blegen, Fassbaender, Popp, Ahnsjo
06) DGG 477 055 / Karajan (Live) - Janowitz, Wunderlich, Prey, Borg
07) DGG 477 9767 / Levine - Battle, Windbergh, Moll
08) EMI 5842 / Marriner - Bonney, Wiens, Blochwitz, Rootering
09) Philips 446 175 / Jochum - Giebel, Kmentt, Frick
10) Disky 705762 / Foster - Grummer, Traxel, Frick
11) Phonographe 5029/30 / C. Krauss/VPO - Eipperle, Patzak, Hann
12) Telarc 80298 / Shaw - Upshaw, Humphrey, Cheek, Grant-Murphy
13) Vox 5025 / Gonnenwein - Donath, Widmer, A-Kraus, V-Scherr
14) Vox 7086 / Horenstein - Coertse, Patzak, Ernster
15) EMI 75929 / Willcocks - Harper, Tear, Shirley-Quirk
16) L'Oiseau-Lyre/Decca 430 397 /Hogwood - Kirkby, Rolfe Johnson, M-George
17) DGG-Archiv 449 217 / Gardiner -McNair, D-Brown, Schade, Finley
18) Decca 443 027 / Dorati - Popp, Hollweg, K-Moll, Döse, Luxon

There are about 70 performances available on recordings, and probably more if one considers the cutouts made of various versions over the years. It matters not if the oratorio is sung in English or German, but of course, the conducting/orchestra/soloists/chorus count for everything. Lately, it's been the Marriner/Bonney-Wiens-Blochwitz-Rootering version I've been imbibing, along with the Vox/Gonnenwein-Donath-Widmer-Kraus-Scherr version. In the Vox, Alabert Kraus, tenor, does a superb job of Uriel ... a singer whom I know not much about. Wiens and Bonney do beautifully in the EMI version. Otherwise, the Telarc/Shaw is probably the best version on recordings if you prefer hearing it in English.

One on Orfeo I am not familiar with, conducted by Rafael Kubelik, which interests me quite a lot. Anybody know this particular recording, and how do you judge it? Another one of great interest would be on Decca with Dorati, who has done much for the music of Haydn in the way of symphonies and opera. It almost seems necessary to acquire this oratorio under his direction. Comments on this one?
Lance G. Hill
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Jared » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:30 am

Lance wrote:This is a subject approached once before, initiated by our beloved JARED.

01) Sony Classical 48045 / Bernstein - Raskin, Young, Reardon
02) Decca 480 4716 / Munchinger - Ameling, Spoorenberg, Krenn, Krause
03) DGG 437 380 / Markevitch - Seefried, Holm, Borg
04) DGG 449 761 / Karajan - Janowitz, Ludwig, Fischer-Dieskau, Wunderlich (w/Krenn substituted for Wunderlich after death)
05) DGG 474 919 / Bernstein/VPO - Blegen, Fassbaender, Popp, Ahnsjo
06) DGG 477 055 / Karajan (Live) - Janowitz, Wunderlich, Prey, Borg
07) DGG 477 9767 / Levine - Battle, Windbergh, Moll
08) EMI 5842 / Marriner - Bonney, Wiens, Blochwitz, Rootering
09) Philips 446 175 / Jochum - Giebel, Kmentt, Frick
10) Disky 705762 / Foster - Grummer, Traxel, Frick
11) Phonographe 5029/30 / C. Krauss/VPO - Eipperle, Patzak, Hann
12) Telarc 80298 / Shaw - Upshaw, Humphrey, Cheek, Grant-Murphy
13) Vox 5025 / Gonnenwein - Donath, Widmer, A-Kraus, V-Scherr
14) Vox 7086 / Horenstein - Coertse, Patzak, Ernster
15) EMI 75929 / Willcocks - Harper, Tear, Shirley-Quirk
16) L'Oiseau-Lyre/Decca 430 397 /Hogwood - Kirkby, Rolfe Johnson, M-George
17) DGG-Archiv 449 217 / Gardiner -McNair, D-Brown, Schade, Finley
18) Decca 443 027 / Dorati - Popp, Hollweg, K-Moll, Döse, Luxon

There are about 70 performances available on recordings, and probably more if one considers the cutouts made of various versions over the years. It matters not if the oratorio is sung in English or German, but of course, the conducting/orchestra/soloists/chorus count for everything. Lately, it's been the Marriner/Bonney-Wiens-Blochwitz-Rootering version I've been imbibing, along with the Vox/Gonnenwein-Donath-Widmer-Kraus-Scherr version. In the Vox, Alabert Kraus, tenor, does a superb job of Uriel ... a singer whom I know not much about. Wiens and Bonney do beautifully in the EMI version. Otherwise, the Telarc/Shaw is probably the best version on recordings if you prefer hearing it in English.

One on Orfeo I am not familiar with, conducted by Rafael Kubelik, which interests me quite a lot. Anybody know this particular recording, and how do you judge it? Another one of great interest would be on Decca with Dorati, who has done much for the music of Haydn in the way of symphonies and opera. It almost seems necessary to acquire this oratorio under his direction. Comments on this one?

Thanks, Lance!! 8) :D I REALLY love this work; one of the very finest things in the Classical canon!

I may be looking at this from a slightly different, HIP perspective, but one of the finest recordings of all, let alone sung in English is:

Image

it was the BBC Music Mag Recording of the Year 2008... and it's McCreesh at his electric, vibrant best, with an intro which lives long in the memory.

I also love this version (like many CMGers, I'm sure)

Image

my third Version is also very good, with Harry Christophers & BBC Singers & Nancy Argenta.

If I was to get a 4th, it would be William Christie's, which i've long been curious about...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Creation- ... 20&sr=1-10

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Jared » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:35 am

Lance wrote: Lately, it's been the Marriner/Bonney-Wiens-Blochwitz-Rootering version I've been imbibing
on a slightly separate subject Lance... I have Marriner's 'Seasons' in my Amazon wish-list, which has had solid critical appraisal. Would you rate it alongside his Creation in terms of performance?

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by bombasticDarren » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:23 am

^^ another emphatic vote for McCreesh here :)

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:03 am

I have these recordings:

1. Popp, Hollweg, Luxon, Moll, Royal Philharmonic, Antal Dorati. DECCA.
2. Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Berry, Fischer-Dieskau, Berlin Philharmonic. Herbert von Karajan. DG.
3. Donath, Tear, van Dam, Philharmonia, Frühbeck de Burgos. EMI.
4. Seefried, Holm, Borg, Berlin Philharmonic, Igor Markevitch. DG.
5. Gruberová, Protschka, Holl, Wiener Symphoniker, Nikolaus Harnoncourt. TELDEC.
6. Battle, Winbergh, Moll, Berlin Philharmonic, James Levine. DG.
7. Janowitz, Wunderlich, Borg, VPO. Herbert von Karajan. DG. (LIVE).
8. Ameling, Krenn, Krause, VPO. Karl Munchinger. DECCA.
9. Marshall, Tappy, Rydl, Orchestre de Chambre de Lausanne, Armin Jordan. ERATO.
10. Popp, Rolfe-Johnson, Luxon, London Philharmonic, Klaus Tennstedt. LPO.
11. Monoyios, Hering, van der Kamp, Tafelmusik, Bruno Weil. SONY.
12. Röschmann, Schade, Gerhaher, Concentus Musicus. Nikolaus Harnoncourt. DHM.
13. Burrowes, Wohlers, Morris, Chicago Symphony, Georg Solti. DECCA.
14. Orgonasova, Rodgers, Ainsley, Wilm Schulte, Orchestra of the 18 Century, Frans Brüggen. Philips.
15. Marshall, Popp, Cole, Weikl, Howell, BRSO, Rafael Kubelik. ORFEO.
16. McNair, Brown, Schade, Finley, Gilfry, English Baroque Soloists, John Eliot Gardiner, Archiv.
17. Kleiter, Schmitt, Weisser, Freiburger Barockorchester, René Jacobs. HM.
18. Blegen, Popp, Moser, Moll, Ollmann, BRSO, Leonard Bernstein, DG.
19. Kühmeier, Spence, Henschel, Les Arts Florissants, William Christie. Virgin.
20. Kirkby, Rolfe-Johnson, George, AAM, Christopher Hogwood. DECCA.
21. Mathis, Araiza, van Dam, Vienna Philharmonic, Herbert von Karajan, DG.
22. Kermes, Davislim, Chung, Balthasar-Neumann-Ensemble, Thomas Hengelbrock. DHM.
23. Bonney, Blochwitz, Bàr, Stuttgart Radio Orchestra, Neville Marriner. EMI.
24. Piau, Padmore, Davies, Gabrieli Consort & Players, Paul McCreesh. Archiv.
25. Grümmer, Traxel, Frick, Berlin Symphoniker, Karl Forster, EMI.
26. Giebel, Kmentt, Frick, BRSO, Eugen Jochum, Philips.
27. Laki, Mackie, Huttenlocher, La Petite Bande, Sigiswald Kuijken. Accent.

Most of them are wonderful, but if I had to choose, the Frans Brüggen and the William Christie will be tops. Brüggen opts (like Hogwood) for the large forces Haydn used in London, an orchestra of 90 players and a choir of some 120, and since the orchestra is the Orchestra of the XVIII Century the sounds are wondrous. Brüggen also has the great Luba Orgonasova as his main archangel, only Gundula Janowitz, Elly Ameling, Irmgard Seefried and Lucia Popp match her in vocal splendor. William Christie uses the smaller-Vienna forces with stunning results. The choir and orchestra of Les Arts Florissants are in a class of their own, and his soloists are archangels of the highest order.
The Kubelik is, needless to say, a beautiful performance, but obviously romanticized, big band Haydn. Among his soloists I especially like the sweet voiced American tenor Vinson Cole, who was a Karajan favourite in the 80´s.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:41 pm

Well, I've ordered the Gardiner/DGG-Archiv and the Dorati/Decca though I have an interest in the Harnoncourt/Teldec. Where does one stop? A good thread here. Everybody's got their favourites, understandably.
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:53 pm

I really should get one or two other versions, but I've been stuck for a long time on Tafelmusik/ Bruno Weil recording I've had for about 20 years. And I noticed no one even has this on their list.
I also have versions by Bernstein, Christophers and a DVD with Gustav Kuhn, Arleen Auger et al. Of those three the Kuhn DVD is clearly the best performance. But although I like the singing on that recording I'm not so fond of the period instrumentation, and it doesn't come close to the Tafelmusik recording overall.
So I think I'll just stick with that one for now.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:58 am

slofstra wrote:I really should get one or two other versions, but I've been stuck for a long time on Tafelmusik/ Bruno Weil recording I've had for about 20 years. And I noticed no one even has this on their list.
I also have versions by Bernstein, Christophers and a DVD with Gustav Kuhn, Arleen Auger et al. Of those three the Kuhn DVD is clearly the best performance. But although I like the singing on that recording I'm not so fond of the period instrumentation, and it doesn't come close to the Tafelmusik recording overall.
So I think I'll just stick with that one for now.
The Bruno Weil is #11 in my list, but my listing is at random, not in order of preference. The Weil is surely an excellent recording too.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:03 am

Lance wrote:Well, I've ordered the Gardiner/DGG-Archiv and the Dorati/Decca though I have an interest in the Harnoncourt/Teldec. Where does one stop? A good thread here. Everybody's got their favourites, understandably.
The Harnoncourt/Teldec is with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. If you want Harnoncourt I´d rather recommend his remake for Deutsche Harmonia Mundi with his own Concentus Musicus Wien.
But you should really take a look to the William Christie recording in Virgin, even in a field of mostly marvelous and excellent recordings, his is a standout.


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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by rogch » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:58 am

There are so many splendid recordings of this work. The conductors, musicians and singers obviously love it. There is also a very good DVD from Münich with George Solti conducting the Bavarian Radio Chorus and Symphony Orchestra with soloists Ruth Ziesak, Herbert Lippert, Anton Scharinger and Reinhard Hagen. The Bavarian forces are excellent in this kind of vocal music and Solti's conducting is not heavy handed in this case.

I also have Karajan and Gardiner in my collection. Both very good.

If Rene Jacobs' recording is anything close to his The Seasons it is a must-have. And Harnoncourt's Haydn is often brilliant and less controversial than many of his other recordings. But which the recording is the best of all? I simply have no idea, there are too many recorings i have not heard. And even if i had heard them all it would probably be a tough call.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:41 am

rogch wrote:There are so many splendid recordings of this work. The conductors, musicians and singers obviously love it. There is also a very good DVD from Münich with George Solti conducting the Bavarian Radio Chorus and Symphony Orchestra with soloists Ruth Ziesak, Herbert Lippert, Anton Scharinger and Reinhard Hagen. The Bavarian forces are excellent in this kind of vocal music and Solti's conducting is not heavy handed in this case.

I also have Karajan and Gardiner in my collection. Both very good.

If Rene Jacobs' recording is anything close to his The Seasons it is a must-have. And Harnoncourt's Haydn is often brilliant and less controversial than many of his other recordings. But which the recording is the best of all? I simply have no idea, there are too many recorings i have not heard. And even if i had heard them all it would probably be a tough call.
Image


Rene Jacobs´s recording is superbly conducted, played (Freiburger Barockorchester) and sung by the RIAS Kammerchor, unfortunately his soloists, though never less than good, are not up to the fearsome competition of other recordings. The same happened in my humble opinion to Gardiner in his Creation as compared to his marvelous Seasons. I don´t think Sylvia McNair is anywhere as good as Barbara Bonney, I deeply regret he didn´t use Bonney or Luba Orgonasova for Die Schöpfung. By the way, McNair stopped singing Classical Music shortly after the Gardiner/Creation recording. I believe she became a night club singer for a while.

Still, between Jacobs and Christie, I´d take Christie anytime.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:30 pm

For me, CREATION takes first place. For Seasons, I grew up with — and still greatly enjoy — Sir Thomas Beecham's EMI recording (and the one on SOMM), but also have the DGG-Bernstein, and Fricsay-Ars Production and the Dorati-Decca version and the EMI-Karajan version. I frequently have the desire to hear CREATION but it doesn't seem to work the same for SEASONS. I would not want to be without SEASONS, however! I have discovered that each CREATION has something appealing in just about every recording whether it is the soloists, orchestra, conductor, or just sheer sound. I have not been able to equate those same characteristics to SEASONS - at least not yet.
Jared wrote:
Lance wrote: Lately, it's been the Marriner/Bonney-Wiens-Blochwitz-Rootering version I've been imbibing
on a slightly separate subject Lance... I have Marriner's 'Seasons' in my Amazon wish-list, which has had solid critical appraisal. Would you rate it alongside his Creation in terms of performance?
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
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When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Jared » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:35 pm

Lance wrote:I would not want to be without SEASONS, however!
what about Marriner's, specifically? Do you own that recording, Lance?

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:27 pm

josé echenique wrote:
rogch wrote:There are so many splendid recordings of this work. The conductors, musicians and singers obviously love it. There is also a very good DVD from Münich with George Solti conducting the Bavarian Radio Chorus and Symphony Orchestra with soloists Ruth Ziesak, Herbert Lippert, Anton Scharinger and Reinhard Hagen. The Bavarian forces are excellent in this kind of vocal music and Solti's conducting is not heavy handed in this case.

I also have Karajan and Gardiner in my collection. Both very good.

If Rene Jacobs' recording is anything close to his The Seasons it is a must-have. And Harnoncourt's Haydn is often brilliant and less controversial than many of his other recordings. But which the recording is the best of all? I simply have no idea, there are too many recorings i have not heard. And even if i had heard them all it would probably be a tough call.
Image


Rene Jacobs´s recording is superbly conducted, played (Freiburger Barockorchester) and sung by the RIAS Kammerchor, unfortunately his soloists, though never less than good, are not up to the fearsome competition of other recordings. The same happened in my humble opinion to Gardiner in his Creation as compared to his marvelous Seasons. I don´t think Sylvia McNair is anywhere as good as Barbara Bonney, I deeply regret he didn´t use Bonney or Luba Orgonasova for Die Schöpfung. By the way, McNair stopped singing Classical Music shortly after the Gardiner/Creation recording. I believe she became a night club singer for a while.

Still, between Jacobs and Christie, I´d take Christie anytime.
I love McNair's voice, but it is a little light. Very well suited for Mozart's Exsultate Jubilate which she recorded with Gardiner.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:20 am

No, don't have Sir Neville's. I am, aside from Beecham's, delighted to have Fricsay's, who is a fav of mine.
Jared wrote:
Lance wrote:I would not want to be without SEASONS, however!
what about Marriner's, specifically? Do you own that recording, Lance?
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:15 am

slofstra wrote:
josé echenique wrote:
rogch wrote:There are so many splendid recordings of this work. The conductors, musicians and singers obviously love it. There is also a very good DVD from Münich with George Solti conducting the Bavarian Radio Chorus and Symphony Orchestra with soloists Ruth Ziesak, Herbert Lippert, Anton Scharinger and Reinhard Hagen. The Bavarian forces are excellent in this kind of vocal music and Solti's conducting is not heavy handed in this case.

I also have Karajan and Gardiner in my collection. Both very good.

If Rene Jacobs' recording is anything close to his The Seasons it is a must-have. And Harnoncourt's Haydn is often brilliant and less controversial than many of his other recordings. But which the recording is the best of all? I simply have no idea, there are too many recorings i have not heard. And even if i had heard them all it would probably be a tough call.
Image


Rene Jacobs´s recording is superbly conducted, played (Freiburger Barockorchester) and sung by the RIAS Kammerchor, unfortunately his soloists, though never less than good, are not up to the fearsome competition of other recordings. The same happened in my humble opinion to Gardiner in his Creation as compared to his marvelous Seasons. I don´t think Sylvia McNair is anywhere as good as Barbara Bonney, I deeply regret he didn´t use Bonney or Luba Orgonasova for Die Schöpfung. By the way, McNair stopped singing Classical Music shortly after the Gardiner/Creation recording. I believe she became a night club singer for a while.

Still, between Jacobs and Christie, I´d take Christie anytime.
I love McNair's voice, but it is a little light. Very well suited for Mozart's Exsultate Jubilate which she recorded with Gardiner.
This is what the Gramophone has to say about McNair in Gardiner´s Creation (and I have to add that I agree with then):

"Weil's recording presents itself as a strong competitor, not only in its use of authentic instruments but also in that it sometimes comes closer to what one might have foretold of Gardiner than does Gardiner himself. The brighter tempo and pointed accentuation of Uriel's first solo, "Nun schwanden" ("Now vanish before the holy beams") provides an example. Weil's tenor soloist, Jorg Hering, also compares well with Michael Schade, who sounded fresher in the fine version made in 1993 under Helmut Rilling. Gardiner has by far the better Raphael in Gerald Finley, and gains from having extra singers for Adam and Eve, especially as the Eve, Donna Brown, brings a forthright style doubly welcome after the shrinking-violet manner and breathy tone of Sylvia McNair's Gabriel. Her contribution constitutes really the principal reason - perhaps the single important one - for hesitating over an outright recommendation."

She is the reason why the Gardiner is not in my top Creations.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:42 pm

josé echenique wrote:
slofstra wrote:
josé echenique wrote:
rogch wrote:There are so many splendid recordings of this work. The conductors, musicians and singers obviously love it. There is also a very good DVD from Münich with George Solti conducting the Bavarian Radio Chorus and Symphony Orchestra with soloists Ruth Ziesak, Herbert Lippert, Anton Scharinger and Reinhard Hagen. The Bavarian forces are excellent in this kind of vocal music and Solti's conducting is not heavy handed in this case.

I also have Karajan and Gardiner in my collection. Both very good.

If Rene Jacobs' recording is anything close to his The Seasons it is a must-have. And Harnoncourt's Haydn is often brilliant and less controversial than many of his other recordings. But which the recording is the best of all? I simply have no idea, there are too many recorings i have not heard. And even if i had heard them all it would probably be a tough call.
Image


Rene Jacobs´s recording is superbly conducted, played (Freiburger Barockorchester) and sung by the RIAS Kammerchor, unfortunately his soloists, though never less than good, are not up to the fearsome competition of other recordings. The same happened in my humble opinion to Gardiner in his Creation as compared to his marvelous Seasons. I don´t think Sylvia McNair is anywhere as good as Barbara Bonney, I deeply regret he didn´t use Bonney or Luba Orgonasova for Die Schöpfung. By the way, McNair stopped singing Classical Music shortly after the Gardiner/Creation recording. I believe she became a night club singer for a while.

Still, between Jacobs and Christie, I´d take Christie anytime.
I love McNair's voice, but it is a little light. Very well suited for Mozart's Exsultate Jubilate which she recorded with Gardiner.
This is what the Gramophone has to say about McNair in Gardiner´s Creation (and I have to add that I agree with then):

"Weil's recording presents itself as a strong competitor, not only in its use of authentic instruments but also in that it sometimes comes closer to what one might have foretold of Gardiner than does Gardiner himself. The brighter tempo and pointed accentuation of Uriel's first solo, "Nun schwanden" ("Now vanish before the holy beams") provides an example. Weil's tenor soloist, Jorg Hering, also compares well with Michael Schade, who sounded fresher in the fine version made in 1993 under Helmut Rilling. Gardiner has by far the better Raphael in Gerald Finley, and gains from having extra singers for Adam and Eve, especially as the Eve, Donna Brown, brings a forthright style doubly welcome after the shrinking-violet manner and breathy tone of Sylvia McNair's Gabriel. Her contribution constitutes really the principal reason - perhaps the single important one - for hesitating over an outright recommendation."

She is the reason why the Gardiner is not in my top Creations.
Although, not having head her sing this part, and likely never to do so based on your review, I'm inclined to think she was just a bad fit. For one thing, when singing with forces of that scale you have to be able to hold your own, and her light coloratura might not have been up to it. In itself, her voice is among the loveliest I've ever heard.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:14 pm

Her voice (Sylvia McNair´s) was very pretty to be sure, but personally I always preferred Barbara Bonney among lyric sopranos of her generation, she always seemed to me the more interesting artist.
Gardiner liked both and used both regularly in recordings. I have to say I deeply regret he didn´t choose Bonney as Ilia in his recording of Idomeneo and in Die Schöpfung.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:00 pm

josé echenique wrote:Her voice (Sylvia McNair´s) was very pretty to be sure, but personally I always preferred Barbara Bonney among lyric sopranos of her generation, she always seemed to me the more interesting artist.
Gardiner liked both and used both regularly in recordings. I have to say I deeply regret he didn´t choose Bonney as Ilia in his recording of Idomeneo and in Die Schöpfung.
I'm not that familiar with Bonney, but I see that within my collection she sang on Gardiner's St. Matthew Passion and also Rattle's 9th with the VPO. I'll have to give one or another of those a whirl soon.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:03 pm

Tried to enjoy this many, many times, never got on with it...sorry...
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:50 am

To which do you refer: Creation or Seasons?
Chalkperson wrote:Tried to enjoy this many, many times, never got on with it...sorry...
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:17 pm

Both, I have all the famous recordings, just never really enjoyed any of them...
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:34 am

Well, such is life. Whatever floats your boat as the saying goes.
Chalkperson wrote:Both, I have all the famous recordings, just never really enjoyed any of them...
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:53 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Both, I have all the famous recordings, just never really enjoyed any of them...
And yet you like some oratorio, correct? I know you like Brahms' Deutsches Requiem. Do you have the Truffle Music version of the Creation? Perhaps that's the problem; you've not heard the piece at its full potential. The Seasons also doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid. Haydn did not find his muse on that one.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Chalkperson » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:22 pm

I guess that I have discerning (ie weird) taste, i'm sure they are wonderful pieces, as with a lot of other fine stuff my brain just does not respond the way most people do...
Lance wrote:Well, such is life. Whatever floats your boat as the saying goes.
Chalkperson wrote:Both, I have all the famous recordings, just never really enjoyed any of them...
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Bro » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:25 pm

I have the Gonnenwein recording that Lance seems to favor. However, like Chalkie, I have never really come to terms with this work. Maybe it's the watery, overly reverberant sound of Vox CDs (the Lps had much more presence, IMHO) somehow, the music just does not sink into my bones. Parts of 'The Creation' sound like "The Magic Flute" but without the distinctive character that Mozart seems to give his melodies (sorry if that sounds like philistinism or simplistic generalization). I gave up on some of the conductors mentioned(read Harnoncourt) years ago,.. but I must say, the graphics on compact discs have improved dramatically from the days when I was exposed to them. Maybe the Sony Bernstein, or the Shaw, would make this work "real" for me.


Bro

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:43 am

The oratorio, THE CREATION, may seem to linger a bit here and there, but the more you hear it and actually follow the text (in English thus digesting it fully) the more you will likely enjoy the work. When one reads H. C. Robbins Landon's comments about the work, the more I want to hear it. Here is what Robbins Landon says: "Haydn spent almost the whole of 1797 and 1798 on the composition of The Creation. The 65-year-old master was fully aware of the responsibilities to which he was committed by choosing such a vast subject; and the endless sketches, first drafts, second drafts and last-minute changes which are extant in various manuscripts in Viennese libraries show that he had never taken his task more serioiusly, or approached the subject with more reverence. 'I was never so religious as during the composition of The Creation,' [Haydn] told his biographer; 'daily I fell on my knees and asked God for strength.' On being asked why he had taken so long with the work, he answered: 'because I intend it to last for a long time.'"

Insofar as the Gonnenwein Vox recording is concerned, for an older recording, I think it is very natural in its sound using outstanding soloists. I played the Vox recording for a friend of mine who has sung the role of Uriel. He liked it so much that he went out and got a copy of it for himself.

Speaking of Vox and oratorios, I hope one day they will reissue on CD their recording of Mendelssohn's Elijah, with Stuttgart forces. It was the first one I ever heard on records and it made a deep impression upon me, particularly the choral work. Vox truly did some great things.
Bro wrote:I have the Gonnenwein recording that Lance seems to favor. However, like Chalkie, I have never really come to terms with this work. Maybe it's the watery, overly reverberant sound of Vox CDs (the Lps had much more presence, IMHO) somehow, the music just does not sink into my bones. Parts of 'The Creation' sound like "The Magic Flute" but without the distinctive character that Mozart seems to give his melodies (sorry if that sounds like philistinism or simplistic generalization). I gave up on some of the conductors mentioned(read Harnoncourt) years ago,.. but I must say, the graphics on compact discs have improved dramatically from the days when I was exposed to them. Maybe the Sony Bernstein, or the Shaw, would make this work "real" for me.


Bro
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:18 pm

Bro wrote:I have the Gonnenwein recording that Lance seems to favor. However, like Chalkie, I have never really come to terms with this work. Maybe it's the watery, overly reverberant sound of Vox CDs (the Lps had much more presence, IMHO) somehow, the music just does not sink into my bones. Parts of 'The Creation' sound like "The Magic Flute" but without the distinctive character that Mozart seems to give his melodies (sorry if that sounds like philistinism or simplistic generalization). I gave up on some of the conductors mentioned(read Harnoncourt) years ago,.. but I must say, the graphics on compact discs have improved dramatically from the days when I was exposed to them. Maybe the Sony Bernstein, or the Shaw, would make this work "real" for me.


Bro
I'd have to check my notes, but I believe that the Bernstein version sucks big time. It sounds dated.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by Lance » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Bernstein "sucks"? Hmm ... you even know that term in Canada. Sometimes it seems most appropriate. I'll have to give another listen to the Bernstein for sure now, thanks to Henry! :o
slofstra wrote:
Bro wrote:I have the Gonnenwein recording that Lance seems to favor. However, like Chalkie, I have never really come to terms with this work. Maybe it's the watery, overly reverberant sound of Vox CDs (the Lps had much more presence, IMHO) somehow, the music just does not sink into my bones. Parts of 'The Creation' sound like "The Magic Flute" but without the distinctive character that Mozart seems to give his melodies (sorry if that sounds like philistinism or simplistic generalization). I gave up on some of the conductors mentioned(read Harnoncourt) years ago,.. but I must say, the graphics on compact discs have improved dramatically from the days when I was exposed to them. Maybe the Sony Bernstein, or the Shaw, would make this work "real" for me.


Bro
I'd have to check my notes, but I believe that the Bernstein version sucks big time. It sounds dated.
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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:21 pm

Lance wrote:Bernstein "sucks"? Hmm ... you even know that term in Canada. Sometimes it seems most appropriate. I'll have to give another listen to the Bernstein for sure now, thanks to Henry! :o
slofstra wrote:
Bro wrote:I have the Gonnenwein recording that Lance seems to favor. However, like Chalkie, I have never really come to terms with this work. Maybe it's the watery, overly reverberant sound of Vox CDs (the Lps had much more presence, IMHO) somehow, the music just does not sink into my bones. Parts of 'The Creation' sound like "The Magic Flute" but without the distinctive character that Mozart seems to give his melodies (sorry if that sounds like philistinism or simplistic generalization). I gave up on some of the conductors mentioned(read Harnoncourt) years ago,.. but I must say, the graphics on compact discs have improved dramatically from the days when I was exposed to them. Maybe the Sony Bernstein, or the Shaw, would make this work "real" for me.


Bro
I'd have to check my notes, but I believe that the Bernstein version sucks big time. It sounds dated.
For the record, I like a lot of Bernstein's work. Sometimes when I listen through one or another of the conductor boxes I've purchased you hear a stinker or two though.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by josé echenique » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:50 pm

Besides, I think Bernstein had a real, palpable, special affinity with Haydn.
Even if now I´d opt for the likes of Frans Brüggen, I still like Lenny in Haydn.

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Re: Haydn's The Creation (Die Schöpfung) recordings

Post by slofstra » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:05 pm

josé echenique wrote:Besides, I think Bernstein had a real, palpable, special affinity with Haydn.
Even if now I´d opt for the likes of Frans Brüggen, I still like Lenny in Haydn.
Symphonies yes, choral work no.

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