Why don't you people talk about Dukas more?

[IcedNote]

I came across this piece today...and I love it.



(écrit pour 'Le Tombeau de Claude Debussy)

I actually only know "that other piece" of his. Where else should I look? I seem to recall that he didn't compose very much, so perhaps that's a fairly easy question to answer.

-G

[IcedNote]

Going through his other piano music on YouTube. Tasty!

-G

[ravel30]

I totally agree with you IcedNote. Dukas deserves a lot more love.

L'Apprenti Sorcier is by far his most famous work and is a very popular work. Still, the orchestration of that piece is amazing and this piece is the perfect 'textbook' example of what a great tone poem is.

His symphony is superb is right up there with some of the late 19th, 20th century french symphonies like the ones by Chausson, Franck, Roussel and many more that I can't remember at the moment .

My favorite piece of his would have to be Le Peri. Superb piece full of refinement and texture. A masterpiece that deserves a lot more praise.

Unfortunately, I still have to hear his piano music but the piece that you put is beautiful and I can see why you admire it.

Matt.

[nut-job]

Le Peri is a brilliant piece. I've read that Dukas destroyed most of his manuscripts, which are now lost. Who knows how we would regard him if we had those other works to hear.

[John F]

With a composer whose major works can be counted on the fingers of one hand, how much more is there to talk about? "Ariane et Barbe-bleue" gets an occasional performance or recording, but evidently doesn't have what it takes to secure a place in the repertory. The same can be said of his orchestral and instrumental works, apart from "The Sorcerer's Apprentice." Just one of those things.

[Lance]

Well, one major company (EMI) has come forth with an inexpensive two-CD set that assembles some of Dukas' major/most important works with major artists. It's been a long time since I've heard the Piano Sonata but it's here with John Ogdon, a once famous British pianist. I don't ever recall being overly attracted to this kind of "wandering" piano work that didn't have much to say. As you can see, the set also contains the Villanelle, which French hornist Dennis Brain brought some fame to from his original EMI recording with Gerald Moore, but here we Michael Thompson, horn, and Philip Fowke at the piano for a much more contemporary recording though I'm not about to discard my Brain/Moore discs.

Naturally, the Sorcerer's Apprentice is here too ... unquestionably Dukas' most famous work. I love the story behind that piece.

So, at least DUKAS is in the news more recently. I must say, I approve of EMI's concept for these two-CD sets of music by composers who are less well represented on discs (for the most part).

[nut-job]

I recently listened to La Peri in a Tortelier recording, which I found very good.



but I've also collected another recording which I have not listened to, but an quite optimistic about, given the forces involved.



However that EMI 2-fer collects some stuff long out of the catalog, and it is a big temptation. I've particularly wanted to get a recording of the piano sonata, and I think the Ogden recording is the one to have.

[Donald Isler]

I heard Marc-Andre Hamelin play his piano sonata, a big, complex work, at the IKIF a few summers ago.

[maestrob]

This excellent disc can be had used from Amazon for $2.25 if you're interested......

[nut-job]

This excellent disc can be had used from Amazon for $2.25 if you're interested......

I guess you didn't notice that that is the same recording I posted above, but in an edition which also includes the Sorcerer's Apprentice, for $3.69, new (not $2.25 for a used disc that shows "wear").

[maestrob]

This excellent disc can be had used from Amazon for $2.25 if you're interested......

I guess you didn't notice that that is the same recording I posted above, but in an edition which also includes the Sorcerer's Apprentice, for $3.69, new (not $2.25 for a used disc that shows "wear").

Can't read the too-small text on your image.....

[some guy]

You talkin' to me, boy?

Huh?

Anyway, a simple "Dukas" entered into the CMG search engine would show that "we" talk about Dukas fairly frequently, most recently in January of this year, in the "prolific" thread, appropriately enough.

[IcedNote]

Good to see some recommended, cheap recordings! I'll surely check them out.

Lance, I'm surprised you don't like the "wandering" work!

-G

[jbuck919]

With a composer whose major works can be counted on the fingers of one hand, how much more is there to talk about? "Ariane et Barbe-bleue" gets an occasional performance or recording, but evidently doesn't have what it takes to secure a place in the repertory. The same can be said of his orchestral and instrumental works, apart from "The Sorcerer's Apprentice." Just one of those things.

I listened to the piece Garrett posted because if it also wowed me I would reserve this comment; but it did not. I think of Dukas as I think of Holst. Each struck a chord, several in fact, with what can be fairly described as a classy novelty piece, more classical than Leroy Anderson perhaps but Anderson at least left us a bunch of fun stuff. If those single pieces had not struck our collective fancy, would we give those two composers any thought at all? Now read that question carefully before you answer. I am not implying that they never wrote another worthwhile note; I am suggesting that we wouldn't bother with them as we do not bother with any number of forgotten composers who wrote just as well in general but never struck it big just once with an orchestral favorite. Something about our make-up wants to assume that one-hit wonders are closer to many-hit wonders than to no-hit non-wonders, but it ain't necessarily so.

[nut-job]

I listened to the piece Garrett posted because if it also wowed me I would reserve this comment; but it did not. I think of Dukas as I think of Holst. Each struck a chord, several in fact, with what can be fairly described as a classy novelty piece, more classical than Leroy Anderson perhaps but Anderson at least left us a bunch of fun stuff. If those single pieces had not struck our collective fancy, would we give those two composers any thought at all? Now read that question carefully before you answer. I am not implying that they never wrote another worthwhile note; I am suggesting that we wouldn't bother with them as we do not bother with any number of forgotten composers who wrote just as well in general but never struck it big just once with an orchestral favorite. Something about our make-up wants to assume that one-hit wonders are closer to many-hit wonders than to no-hit non-wonders, but it ain't necessarily so.

"Sorcerer" was written early in Dukas' career, and made his name. The fact that it is Dukas' most popular work should not be taken as an indication that it is his best work (any more than Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is the best of Mozart). La Peri is on an entirely different level, and I think it as good an orchestral piece as I have heard from a composer of that era. Dukas was very self critical and I think we might have a different attitude towards him had he not destroyed most of his own work.

[Chalkperson]

Does the fact that he's French have anything to do with it...

[jbuck919]

Does the fact that he's French have anything to do with it...

Nonsense. People bend over backwards to find reasons to appreciate additional works of Berlioz. (fleeing)

[ravel30]

Does the fact that he's French have anything to do with it...

At least France has some known and appreciated composers. Can't say the same about any welsh composers

[Wallingford]

MYSELF, I've been into Dukas for the past three decades. I programmed on a solo recital the Prelude elegiaque along with the two more famous pieces composed on the name Haydn to commemorate the centenary of that composer's death: Debussy's Hommage a Haydn and Ravel's Prelude sur le nom d'Haydn.

The Polyeucte symphonic poem, which predates Dukas' other works, is a nice Wagnerian type of piece. And I always enjoy La peri, Araine et Barbe-Bleu (MASTERPIECE!) and the Villanelle.

In the last two decades, a song of his was unearthed, The Pearl Fisherman And The Mermaid, and it was (I believe) premiered stateside by Dawn Upshaw, with Alasdair Neale and the San Francisco Symphony. Very lovely song. The orchestration employs a saxophone.

[jbuck919]

Does the fact that he's French have anything to do with it...

At least France has some known and appreciated composers. Can't say the same about any welsh composers

Nonsense again.

[IcedNote]

MYSELF, I've been into Dukas for the past three decades. I programmed on a solo recital the Prelude elegiaque along with the two more famous pieces composed on the name Haydn to commemorate the centenary of that composer's death: Debussy's Hommage a Haydn and Ravel's Prelude sur le nom d'Haydn.

The Polyeucte symphonic poem, which predates Dukas' other works, is a nice Wagnerian type of piece. And I always enjoy La peri, Araine et Barbe-Bleu (MASTERPIECE!) and the Villanelle.

In the last two decades, a song of his was unearthed, The Pearl Fisherman And The Mermaid, and it was (I believe) premiered stateside by Dawn Upshaw, with Alasdair Neale and the San Francisco Symphony. Very lovely song. The orchestration employs a saxophone.

Thanks! I'll go find those other pieces you mention and give them a go.

-G

[Lance]

Well, I'll give it another listen. Some years ago, I first heard it on an MGM LP recording but somehow it didn't catch my ear. John Ogdon was no slouch of a pianist, though sometimes his playing became disturbing to me with his mannered playing, which may have been an affect of his illness. While I am a great follower of Marc-André Hamelin, whose recording (on Hyperion) I have, but once again, the music left me wanting.

Good to see some recommended, cheap recordings! I'll surely check them out.

Lance, I'm surprised you don't like the "wandering" work!

-G

[John F]

I listened to the piece Garrett posted because if it also wowed me I would reserve this comment; but it did not. I think of Dukas as I think of Holst. Each struck a chord, several in fact, with what can be fairly described as a classy novelty piece, more classical than Leroy Anderson perhaps but Anderson at least left us a bunch of fun stuff. If those single pieces had not struck our collective fancy, would we give those two composers any thought at all? Now read that question carefully before you answer. I am not implying that they never wrote another worthwhile note; I am suggesting that we wouldn't bother with them as we do not bother with any number of forgotten composers who wrote just as well in general but never struck it big just once with an orchestral favorite. Something about our make-up wants to assume that one-hit wonders are closer to many-hit wonders than to no-hit non-wonders, but it ain't necessarily so.

Dukas and Holst would most likely have been no-hit composers if they hadn't composed pieces that musically unsophisticated people can easily "get" because of their extramusical programs or titles. It didn't hurt the popularity of "The Planets," in England anyway, that Holst later used the big tune in "Jupiter" as a patriotic anthem, "I vow to thee, my country." Casting Mickey Mouse as the sorcerer's apprentice didn't hurt either.

You asked if we would give Dukas and Holst any thought at all if not for these very popular works. What you mean "we," white man? Of course we in CMG would - we do! This thread is proof of it. Holst composed other pieces whose popularity is real if more modest than "The Planets" and limited mainly to England - a couple of suites for orchestra, some brass band music, some choral works. I've seen his one-act opera "Savitri" staged in New York. Dukas composed much less, of course, and while I've been to a concert performance of "Ariane et Barbe-bleue" in New York, I know his other music only from recordings made in France.

If "we" means me, I don't need to know a popular hit to make me give thought to a composer. Dukas's contemporary Guillaume Lekeu, for example. Enesco got him to compose a violin sonata, and there have been recordings by Enesco's pupil Yehudi Menuhin and other major violinists. Doubtless this is Lekeu's best known work, if that isn't putting it too strongly.

[ChrisBrewster]

I came across this piece today...and I love it.



(écrit pour 'Le Tombeau de Claude Debussy)

I actually only know "that other piece" of his. Where else should I look? I seem to recall that he didn't compose very much, so perhaps that's a fairly easy question to answer.

-G

[ravel30]

Does the fact that he's French have anything to do with it...

At least France has some known and appreciated composers. Can't say the same about any welsh composers

Nonsense again.

I consider myself knowledgeable in classical music (in comparison to 'normal' people but not to most cmg members ) and I have never heard of Tomkins. I can't imagine that the average listener has either. I don't think that my claim is nonsense and I think that it is fair to say that the output of french music to the classical music genre is by far superior to the welsh.

My goal was just to denounce yet another constructive comment from my favorite 'photographer' and certainly not to compare nations against each other.

Matt.

[IcedNote]

[quote="ChrisBrewster"][/quote]

Was there a comment in here somewhere, because I sure don't see it!

-G

[nut-job]

Just yesterday my copy of the new release first mentioned by Lance arrived.



I already have recordings of the orchestral music, but it will be interesting to hear another interpretation, and the piano and chamber music will be entirely new to me.

[jbuck919]

Does the fact that he's French have anything to do with it...

At least France has some known and appreciated composers. Can't say the same about any welsh composers

Nonsense again.

I consider myself knowledgeable in classical music (in comparison to 'normal' people but not to most cmg members ) and I have never heard of Tomkins. I can't imagine that the average listener has either. I don't think that my claim is nonsense and I think that it is fair to say that the output of french music to the classical music genre is by far superior to the welsh.

My goal was just to denounce yet another constructive comment from my favorite 'photographer' and certainly not to compare nations against each other.

Matt.

And my goal was to have fun. In fact, I had no idea that Tomkins was a Welshman and simply took him off the list of Welsh composers on Wikipedia because this fine anthem is famous to those who are into English Renaissance music. (His other noted anthem is "Then David Mourned" which is about the death of Saul and Jonathan but which is complete with the text "Then David mourned with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son" without actually going on to the famous lamentation. Sort of a theme composer you might say. )

[Lance]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this two-CD set. Hope you are having the same joy at this point. I will probably end up with a few more of these special 20th century EMI music sets. The price is right and the remastering is outstanding.

Just yesterday my copy of the new release first mentioned by Lance arrived.



I already have recordings of the orchestral music, but it will be interesting to hear another interpretation, and the piano and chamber music will be entirely new to me.

[Lance]

I meant to say that I have RE-HEARD the Dukas Piano Sonata a couple of times now in this new reissue on EMI as performed by John Ogdon. I must tell you that this "wandering" sonata wandered less than I recalled at least under Ogdon's hands. In fact, for me it is one of his more consistent recordings for a lengthier piece of music. Under his hands, it made more sense to me though I didn't particularly think his piano was evenly voiced throughout the 88 notes. I can take a bit of a strident piano as long as it is fairly even across the scale. Nonetheless, the Ogdon interpretation was exceedingly intersting to me. I must get out the Hamelin performance on Hyperion and give it a rehearing. As I have mentioned before, it was Ashkenazy and Ogdon who both won an equal first prize years ago, but it was Ashkenazy who emerged as—for most people—the more illustrious artist (using that word in the best sense, of course). Ogdon was plagued with health problems throughout his brief life, but when he was on top of things, he was outstanding.

There ... we have talked about DUKAS once more, eh? (Are you listening Dulcinea?)

[ChrisBrewster]

Was there a comment in here somewhere, because I sure don't see it!

-G

Well, there was *supposed* to be a comment, which was-- I love the fanfare from La Peri.