Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

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Istvan
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Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Istvan » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:43 am

Cheers

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:16 am

I've just learned about the death of Maestro Abbado and this is very sad indeed. He hadn't been at all well for some time and some television images of his gaunt and frail body have been very distressing over the last few years. He seemed to soldier on regardless of his health problems, and this requires great courage as any cancer patient will testify.

A life in music well lived.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by stenka razin » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:45 am

He was a giant and he will be sadly missed. Long may his recordings be in print, so that future generations of music lovers experience his greatness. I am so sad. :(


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Mel :(
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Seán » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:26 am

This is terrible news, I LOVED Maestro Claudio Abbado's music-making and I would have loved to have had the chance to attend one or more of his concerts, he was a very special musician, may he rest in peace.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Mookalafalas » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:00 am

That is sad news. He always had such a gentle, sweet way about him.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by josé echenique » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:22 am

The most significant conductor of our time, a great artist.
I was fortunate to see his Simon Boccanegra in La Scala, one of the greatest musical experiences in my life.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by John F » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:43 am

Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:00 am

John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Seán » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:56 am

Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
So would I.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by josé echenique » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:40 pm

Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
So would I.
And so would I, he was not only the finest Rossini conductor after Gui, but as great in Mahler as Bernstein and as fine in Verdi as Giulini. And his Mussorgsky was incomparable, so dear John, yes, I think he was much more than important, he was significant.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:06 pm

josé echenique wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
So would I.
And so would I, he was not only the finest Rossini conductor after Gui, but as great in Mahler as Bernstein and as fine in Verdi as Giulini. And his Mussorgsky was incomparable, so dear John, yes, I think he was much more than important, he was significant.
I would concur as well.

And he's being "singled out", John, because he just passed away.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Heck148 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:40 pm

Istvan wrote:http://www.lepoint.fr/culture/le-celebr ... 2169_3.php

Claudio Abbado died earlier today.
So sad..he was a great conductor, one of my favorites...

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:48 pm

ContrapunctusIX wrote:
josé echenique wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
So would I.
And so would I, he was not only the finest Rossini conductor after Gui, but as great in Mahler as Bernstein and as fine in Verdi as Giulini. And his Mussorgsky was incomparable, so dear John, yes, I think he was much more than important, he was significant.
I would concur as well.

And he's being "singled out", John, because he just passed away.
John is just making sure it's OK for us to use the word "significant" in our memories of this exceptional man, unlike the three Conductors John names Abbado was not quite so ego driven, or difficult to work with, he formed the Lucerne Festival Orchestra, not for the money but for the music, and there is so much good music to listen to, from Haydn to Mahler.. The Operas recordings are exceptional.

I also would have though running La Scale for nearly 20 years was a significant achievement, he transformed it, but alas still not significant enough for John.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Lance » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:13 pm

Hugely sad. I, too, held Abbado in the highest esteem. My own recorded legacy of his work is extensive so I will have many memories to cherish of his work. May he RIP.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by barney » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:47 pm

Indeed, one of the titans. No point in comparing him with others, but just respect what he was, a truly fine conductor and very decent man, from what I gather. My late father was a fellow student in the conducting course in Sienna with him 50 years ago. He was recently honoured with a couple of box sets, both of which I recommend, though most of us will have much of it anyway. the larger, 41-CD set, contains highly illuminating cycles by most of the great symphonists.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by barney » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:52 pm


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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by John F » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:30 am

josé echenique wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
So would I.
And so would I, he was not only the finest Rossini conductor after Gui, but as great in Mahler as Bernstein and as fine in Verdi as Giulini. And his Mussorgsky was incomparable, so dear John, yes, I think he was much more than important, he was significant.
Of course everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. But the achievements you mention wouldn't lead me to use the word "significant." Karajan was significant because of his powerful influence on classical music, not just performance but the business, across several decades and the unequaled size and scope of his discography. Bernstein was significant as the first American-born conductor to lead one of the top American orchestras and to have a major international career. Solti was significant if only because he was the first conductor to record the complete "Ring" cycle, and thus set standards of interpretation and execution for a generation and more of listeners. Fine conductor though Abbado certainly was, his achievement don't strike me as exceptional enough to be called "significant," which for me implies more than just excellence.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by scififan » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:45 am

May he Rest in Peace.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:34 am

John F wrote:
josé echenique wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:Why "significant," José, and why single Abbado out? Abbado was certainly an important conductor, but his generation includes quite a few others with reputations the equal of his, though of course their careers took different shapes, and "our time" (at least my time) includes such others as Leonard Bernstein, Georg Solti, and Herbert von Karajan.
I, for one, would take Abbado over Solti, Bernstein and Karajan any day. RIP Maestro.
So would I.
And so would I, he was not only the finest Rossini conductor after Gui, but as great in Mahler as Bernstein and as fine in Verdi as Giulini. And his Mussorgsky was incomparable, so dear John, yes, I think he was much more than important, he was significant.
Of course everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. But the achievements you mention wouldn't lead me to use the word "significant." Karajan was significant because of his powerful influence on classical music, not just performance but the business, across several decades and the unequaled size and scope of his discography. Bernstein was significant as the first American-born conductor to lead one of the top American orchestras and to have a major international career. Solti was significant if only because he was the first conductor to record the complete "Ring" cycle, and thus set standards of interpretation and execution for a generation and more of listeners. Fine conductor though Abbado certainly was, his achievement don't strike me as exceptional enough to be called "significant," which for me implies more than just excellence.
Yet again we are chastised for using a word, last time it was definitive, now it's significant, is it really so important that we should consult a dictionary before praising a man on his death. I guess the best word to describe you in your obituary would be pedantic.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by josé echenique » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:37 am

<Fine conductor though Abbado certainly was, his achievement don't strike me as exceptional enough to be called "significant," which for me implies more than just excellence.>

When Abbado took over La Scala in 1968 the venerable old theatre was not seeing it´s finest years. Abbado raised beyond recognition the excellence of the orchestra and the chorus, and brought people like Giorgio Strehler and Jean-Pierre Ponnelle to revitalize the stage. He was also music director of the London Symphony Orchestra, Vienna State Opera and the Berlin Philharmonic. He founded the European Community Youth Orchestra, the Chamber Orchestra of Europe, the Mahler Chamber Orchestra, the Lucerne Festival Orchestra and the Mozart Orchestra. He famously championed new music, and in his later years took an interest in old music and period performance practice, conducting the Tallis Scholars in Palestrina!!!!
I think all these achievements make him significant, to say the least.


"Tra ieri e oggi ho letto di tutto. Dalle commozioni, ai rimpianti, ai ricordi anche personali. Ma ho letto anche la consueta arrogante attitudine allo sberleffo, al dileggio, alla calunnia postuma e indifendibile: battute da due soldi, insulti e illazioni che ad ascoltarle danno l'idea del compiaciuto imbarbarimento senza ritorno di questo paese. Vorrei che questi eroi di cartone, dotati del solo dito indice col quale digitano goffamente sulla tastiera del loro pc e dello schermo dietro il quale ruttano cazzate e si difendono meschinamente, guardassero il volto di quest'uomo dopo aver chiuso l'ultimo accordo, anche senza ascoltare la musica. Se solo questo bastasse a porsi una domanda avrebbero vinto la loro vita: si accorgerebbero di come hanno buttato al cesso il loro cervello per sempre. Per capire gliene servirebbero altre dieci, forse."

Rinaldo Alessandrini.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:46 am

Abbado wasn't quite of the same generation as the three conductors John F mentions. He was born at least 15 years later than any of then, and died 17 years after the last of them (Solti). And while all their careers may have overlapped with John's life, and José's, and Chalkie's, and mine, the same is true of Toscanini, and no one would think to throw him into this pot. If we decide to draw the generational line so that Abbado simply gets grouped with relatively younger conductors (Maazel, Mehta), perhaps that will resolve the issue of relative significance.

How's that for a diplomatic solution? :D

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:12 pm

Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by lennygoran » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:13 pm

jbuck919 wrote: How's that for a diplomatic solution? :D
Sounds like significant progress is being made! Regards, Len :) :) :)

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by John F » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:55 pm

ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Heck148 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:17 pm

stenka razin wrote:He was a giant and he will be sadly missed. Long may his recordings be in print, so that future generations of music lovers experience his greatness. I am so sad. :(
Abbado achieved great results with so many of the world's great orchestras and organizations - LSO, CSO, VPO, BPO, La Scala.
For me, that is a strong recommendation for any conductor - one who can produce great results with so many different orchestras. Abbado was one of the greats of his generation for sure, and one of the greats on the all-time list as well, at least for me.

One of my favorite Abbado recordings is the splendid Berg disc he did with LSO for DG [12/70] - he was still going strong over 40 years later...his work with BPO was very fine. I heard them play Mahler 9 in BOston - it was truly memorable.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by piston » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:27 pm

he shook my world in his unique renditions of Mussorgsky's less known music:
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:46 pm

John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.

And to agree with the other John, Abbado does not belong with those three Conductors at all, perhaps he did not come to America enough to get your approval, and you are the first person I have met who does not consider him to be a highly significant conductor, and his work at La Scala was exceptional, he transformed the place, and the recordings are significant too, maybe you just don't own enough of his discs to understand where the rest of us get our opinion from.

As for Solti deserving such praise simply because he recorded the Ring, I hope John Culshaw is a significant record producer, without him that recording would not have reached it's legendary status.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:55 pm

Out of interest, can anyone name a bad Abbado recording? I don't think he was capable of that, his standards were so high that he withdrew his DG Beethoven cycle and re-recorded it.

Karajan, Solti and Bernstein however certainly produced their fair of duds.

I think that John rarely takes into account the effect some conductors have in Europe, CMG is so biased towards American Conductors and Orchestras, I have never fallen for the Bernstein hype, other than some of his Shostakovich I never listen to him. It's European conductors that made the American Orchrstras great, thanks to WW2 and the lure of the Yankee dollar...
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Seán » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:20 am

Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.
That is the very reason for my absence from this otherwise splendid forum: one inadvertent slip of the thumb or a comment that does not find favour with our American linguistic & Canadian pc friends is relentlessly pursued until they have had the last word on the matter, differences of opinion are seen as a challenge, it is a cultural thing I suppose to be so combative and to have such a feeling of superiority, ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk!
Lest we forget the reason for this thread: bless Maestro Claudio Abbado.
Seán

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by slofstra » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:39 am

Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.
That is the very reason for my absence from this otherwise splendid forum: one inadvertent slip of the thumb or a comment that does not find favour with our American linguistic & Canadian pc friends is relentlessly pursued until they have had the last word on the matter, differences of opinion are seen as a challenge, it is a cultural thing I suppose to be so combative and to have such a feeling of superiority, ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk!
Lest we forget the reason for this thread: bless Maestro Claudio Abbado.
Imputing motives is a sure way to a make a mountain out of a molehill; I'd suggest you and chalkperson avoid it, and I will do the same. The first couple of posts were fine, but I think the last few are ill considered.

If personalities are a problem, can I suggest sending a personal note, and keep it off the forum?

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by THEHORN » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:39 am

I will never forget the Carnegie hall concert by Abbado and the Vienna Philharmonic where they gave a truly inspired performance of the Bruckner 7th . The sheer sound of the orchestra was breathtaking . The applause and cheers were deafening . R.I.P., maestro Abbado .

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Seán » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:59 pm

slofstra wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.
That is the very reason for my absence from this otherwise splendid forum: one inadvertent slip of the thumb or a comment that does not find favour with our American linguistic & Canadian pc friends is relentlessly pursued until they have had the last word on the matter, differences of opinion are seen as a challenge, it is a cultural thing I suppose to be so combative and to have such a feeling of superiority, ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk!
Lest we forget the reason for this thread: bless Maestro Claudio Abbado.
Imputing motives is a sure way to a make a mountain out of a molehill; I'd suggest you and chalkperson avoid it, and I will do the same. The first couple of posts were fine, but I think the last few are ill considered.

If personalities are a problem, can I suggest sending a personal note, and keep it off the forum?
Yes of course you can and may too, you could have done likewise last year but choose not to do so.
Seán

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Seán » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:09 pm

MILAN — The La Scala Philharmonic orchestra will play the funeral march from Beethoven’s No. 3 Symphony to an empty house in tribute to Claudio Abbado, the opera house’s long-time musical director who died this week.

La Scala said Tuesday that Daniel Barenboim, a long-time friend who joined Abbado in his 2012 return to La Scala’s stage, will conduct the opera house’s traditional memorial to its most influential figures Monday evening. The music will be broadcast live outside.

The Milanese opera house’s tradition of playing a tribute funeral march to an empty theater dates from Arturo Toscanini’s 1957 death.

Abbado was La Scala’s musical director from 1968 to 1986, before moving to other venues in Vienna, Berlin, London and Chicago. He died Monday at age 80 after a long illness.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertain ... story.html
Seán

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by slofstra » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:25 pm

Seán wrote:
slofstra wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.
That is the very reason for my absence from this otherwise splendid forum: one inadvertent slip of the thumb or a comment that does not find favour with our American linguistic & Canadian pc friends is relentlessly pursued until they have had the last word on the matter, differences of opinion are seen as a challenge, it is a cultural thing I suppose to be so combative and to have such a feeling of superiority, ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk!
Lest we forget the reason for this thread: bless Maestro Claudio Abbado.
Imputing motives is a sure way to a make a mountain out of a molehill; I'd suggest you and chalkperson avoid it, and I will do the same. The first couple of posts were fine, but I think the last few are ill considered.

If personalities are a problem, can I suggest sending a personal note, and keep it off the forum?
Yes of course you can and may too, you could have done likewise last year but choose not to do so.
Touche, Seán. Well it's a new year, and I hope I'm a little older and wiser. (For sure, I am older).

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by barney » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:17 am

Chalkperson wrote:As for Solti deserving such praise simply because he recorded the Ring, I hope John Culshaw is a significant record producer, without him that recording would not have reached it's legendary status.

I think Culshaw is widely recognised as an extremely significant record producer. Fear not on that score.

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:23 am

slofstra wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.
That is the very reason for my absence from this otherwise splendid forum: one inadvertent slip of the thumb or a comment that does not find favour with our American linguistic & Canadian pc friends is relentlessly pursued until they have had the last word on the matter, differences of opinion are seen as a challenge, it is a cultural thing I suppose to be so combative and to have such a feeling of superiority, ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk!
Lest we forget the reason for this thread: bless Maestro Claudio Abbado.
Imputing motives is a sure way to a make a mountain out of a molehill; I'd suggest you and chalkperson avoid it, and I will do the same. The first couple of posts were fine, but I think the last few are ill considered.

If personalities are a problem, can I suggest sending a personal note, and keep it off the forum?
Personal notes do no good, neither do posts in the forum, John will never stop his quest to always be better than us, to be more correct than us, he seems to think it's a worthwhile game to play, but it drives away posters, I tell him online, he ignores it, i tell him offline he ignores that too. He does not care how many members he loses us, he only cares that we use the right words, the fun has gone from CMG, I think it's time for me to take another break, not because I'm angry, just because this kind of discussion depresses me, it could be solved by one person, but it won't because he has no interest in changing, then I have no interest in posting, just like Sean, I'll lurk but not post. Sad...
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:23 am

slofstra wrote:
Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
John F wrote:
ContrapunctusIX wrote:Another day, another thread in which John F feels obliged to split hairs...at this point I'm assuming the strands have been shaved down to the atomic level...

:roll:
Well, words matter, don't they? Like Sweeney says, "I’ve gotta use words when I talk to you." And vice versa.
But do you really need to show off your linguistic knowledge every time we use a common phrase or word, it takes the fun out of posting here, knowing that if we don't consult a dictionary before we post we risk you insisting on arguing about our choice of words. It's beyond petty, it's tedious and annoying.
That is the very reason for my absence from this otherwise splendid forum: one inadvertent slip of the thumb or a comment that does not find favour with our American linguistic & Canadian pc friends is relentlessly pursued until they have had the last word on the matter, differences of opinion are seen as a challenge, it is a cultural thing I suppose to be so combative and to have such a feeling of superiority, ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk!
Lest we forget the reason for this thread: bless Maestro Claudio Abbado.
Imputing motives is a sure way to a make a mountain out of a molehill; I'd suggest you and chalkperson avoid it, and I will do the same. The first couple of posts were fine, but I think the last few are ill considered.

If personalities are a problem, can I suggest sending a personal note, and keep it off the forum?
Personal notes do no good, neither do posts in the forum, John will never stop his quest to always be better than us, to be more correct than us, he seems to think it's a worthwhile game to play, but it drives away posters, I tell him online, he ignores it, i tell him offline he ignores that too. He does not care how many members he loses us, he only cares that we use the right words, the fun has gone from CMG, I think it's time for me to take another break, not because I'm angry, just because this kind of discussion depresses me, it could be solved by one person, but it won't because he has no interest in changing, then I have no interest in posting, just like Sean, I'll lurk but not post. Sad...
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by John F » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:18 am

Chalkperson wrote:As for Solti deserving such praise simply because he recorded the Ring, I hope John Culshaw is a significant record producer, without him that recording would not have reached it's legendary status.
To call someone "significant" is not necessarily praise. I take it to mean an achievement that's both important and distinctive, different in kind from others' in the same field. Roger Bannister was not the fastest runner in history, but he was the first to run a mile in less than 4 minutes, a significant achievement. His record was broken a few weeks later, but who remembers the name of that runner? (I do, but I was alive back then and following sports.) Or indeed knows who presently holds the world record in the mile, without looking it up in Wikipedia? I've no idea.

Similarly, Georg Solti is among the most significant conductors because he was the first to record the Ring cycle. Whatever one thinks of his conducting, the achievement itself is the significant part. If one claims special significance for Claudio Abbado, I'd say that ought to be based on some such distinctive achievement, not general excellence, and I can't think of anything comparable. And if we were talking about record producers - which we aren't - John Culshaw is certainly among the most significant for that and other achievements, along with Fred Gaisberg, Walter Legge, Goddard Lieberson, and a few others on the classical music side. But that's off-topic.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Tarantella » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:52 am

The word "significant" was deliberately used to praise Maestro Abbado and it's perfectly legitimate and I agree with it. There is no need to anatomize the word - just join in the spirit of condolence on the passing of a wonderful musician who died doing what he loved most, and with courage and dignity. I think that's all any of us can ask.

(And I agree with Sean!)

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by John F » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:41 am

I agree in mourning Abbado's death, but disagree with what I think is an overestimation of the nature of his importance and achievement. If you don't see the objective difference between excellence and significance, so be it.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:06 am

John F wrote:I agree in mourning Abbado's death, but disagree with what I think is an overestimation of the nature of his importance and achievement. If you don't see the objective difference between excellence and significance, so be it.
Can anyone ever do so many things in an excellent manner that it becomes significant--just asking with nothing specific in mind right now? Maybe a sports example--a jockey wins so many races that when he dies he's looked back on as significant? Regards, Len

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Seán » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:49 am

lennygoran wrote:
John F wrote:I agree in mourning Abbado's death, but disagree with what I think is an overestimation of the nature of his importance and achievement. If you don't see the objective difference between excellence and significance, so be it.
Can anyone ever do so many things in an excellent manner that it becomes significant--just asking with nothing specific in mind right now? Maybe a sports example--a jockey wins so many races that when he dies he's looked back on as significant? Regards, Len
Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?
Seán

"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:17 am

Seán wrote: Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?
I can see starting another thread on Maestro Claudio Abbado's significance but imo it should definitely be in the Classical Music Chatterbox. Regards, Len

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by John F » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:59 am

Seán wrote:
lennygoran wrote:
John F wrote:I agree in mourning Abbado's death, but disagree with what I think is an overestimation of the nature of his importance and achievement. If you don't see the objective difference between excellence and significance, so be it.
Can anyone ever do so many things in an excellent manner that it becomes significant--just asking with nothing specific in mind right now? Maybe a sports example--a jockey wins so many races that when he dies he's looked back on as significant? Regards, Len
Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?
So you want exclude those whose view differs from yours? Sorry, no. This thread is about Claudio Abbado, so are all of my comments in it directly or indirectly, and I've as much right to them as you have to yours.

To Lenny: sustained excellence is praiseworthy, for sure, but I've already explained and re-explained about significance and have nothing more to say on that subject.
John Francis

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:11 am

John F wrote:
To Lenny: sustained excellence is praiseworthy, for sure, but I've already explained and re-explained about significance and have nothing more to say on that subject.
So be it but I will add this definition I found:

sig·nif·i·cant
adjective \sig-ˈni-fi-kənt\

: large enough to be noticed or have an effect

: very important

: having a special or hidden meaning

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/significant

Regards, Len

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:53 am

John F wrote:I agree in mourning Abbado's death, but disagree with what I think is an overestimation of the nature of his importance and achievement. If you don't see the objective difference between excellence and significance, so be it.
Splitting hairs over the meaning of a descriptive word is not mourning someone IMHO, it's disrespespectful, petty and pointless.

But I'm a Brit, maybe it's cool to do this in America, in the UK it would be considered to be in extreme bad taste.

It's "the little differences" in the two cultures that often cause clashes here, the brash American way of behaving and the reserved British one are at complete opposites, as I say in a thread about a persons passing a certain decorum is required. I saw not one word of regret in John's posts, his input was purely and simply academic, the difference in the use of a common word.

In the culture Sean and I come from he would have kept that little fact to himself, knowing that by injecting his little linguistic comment it would derail the thread as posters would defend it's use. That cheapens the Thread, and Abbado can only die once.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:56 am

lennygoran wrote:
Seán wrote: Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?
I can see starting another thread on Maestro Claudio Abbado's significance but imo it should definitely be in the Classical Music Chatterbox. Regards, Len
He never suggested that, he asked, like myself, that if we are going to argue linguistics that it should be done in the Pub, it's obviously a cultural matter, those who feel respect is required in a Thread about somebody's death, and those who think it's cool to pick holes in a respectful post about a very sad event.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by ContrapunctusIX » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:27 am

Seán wrote:
lennygoran wrote:
John F wrote:I agree in mourning Abbado's death, but disagree with what I think is an overestimation of the nature of his importance and achievement. If you don't see the objective difference between excellence and significance, so be it.
Can anyone ever do so many things in an excellent manner that it becomes significant--just asking with nothing specific in mind right now? Maybe a sports example--a jockey wins so many races that when he dies he's looked back on as significant? Regards, Len
Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?
I fail to see how nationality plays any significance ( :lol: ), John is a nitpicker and would still be so regardless of country or language! :mrgreen:
Last edited by ContrapunctusIX on Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:49 pm

Chalkperson wrote: He never suggested that, he asked, like myself, that if we are going to argue linguistics that it should be done in the Pub, it's obviously a cultural matter, those who feel respect is required in a Thread about somebody's death, and those who think it's cool to pick holes in a respectful post about a very sad event.
Gee I thought he had--I don't think anyone was picking holes in the original sad announcement and the greatness of the conductor but then significance was mentioned and that got this other thing going.

The quote I question is:
"Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?"

I'm not saying this is the right thread to discuss Abbado's significance but still this seems to be more than just linguistics in general--isn't there room in the classical music part of the forum to discuss how significant Abbado was? The thread started with an announcement on the great composer's passing but in one of the early threads the word significant was used--I guess there comes a time when history judges how significant a famous person was--maybe this just isn't the time for it? Regards, Len

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Re: Farewell, Claudio ABBADO

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:26 pm

lennygoran wrote:
Chalkperson wrote: He never suggested that, he asked, like myself, that if we are going to argue linguistics that it should be done in the Pub, it's obviously a cultural matter, those who feel respect is required in a Thread about somebody's death, and those who think it's cool to pick holes in a respectful post about a very sad event.
Gee I thought he had--I don't think anyone was picking holes in the original sad announcement and the greatness of the conductor but then significance was mentioned and that got this other thing going.

The quote I question is:
"Perhaps this is an appropriate subject for the Pub where American members can indulge themselves in a discussion in linguistics and the appropriateness or otherwise of the use of words in certain circumstances and leave this thread to those of us who hold Maestro Claudio Abbado in very high esteem and who want to write a few words on the passing of a lovely musician who has given so many of us so much pleasure?"

I'm not saying this is the right thread to discuss Abbado's significance but still this seems to be more than just linguistics in general--isn't there room in the classical music part of the forum to discuss how significant Abbado was? The thread started with an announcement on the great composer's passing but in one of the early threads the word significant was used--I guess there comes a time when history judges how significant a famous person was--maybe this just isn't the time for it? Regards, Len
I posted this ages ago, nobody took the bait...
Out of interest, can anyone name a bad Abbado recording? I don't think he was capable of that, his standards were so high that he withdrew his DG Beethoven cycle and re-recorded it.
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