Why should orchestras support new music?

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IcedNote
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Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by IcedNote » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:28 pm

Hi, folks!

Well, next weekend I'm speaking on a panel at the Association of California Symphony Orchestra's 46th Annual Conference (http://www.acso.org/conference) about new music. Should be fun! My fellow panelists are:

- Nan Washburn, music director, Michigan Philharmonic
- Chris Rountree, music director, wild Up
- Nolan Gasser, composer
- Alan Silow, executive director, Santa Rosa Symphony

We'll be discussing many things about new music and orchestras...from technical aspects of a commission to the attitude of today's audience toward new music.

What'd I'd like to ask you is: why should orchestras support new music? What are your primary reasons for believing so? And if you don't believe that, why not? Our audience will include representatives from all sorts of organizations, from as-small-as-you-can-get orchestras all the way up to the LA Phil, so your answers can cover pretty much any ground you care to.

I've been around CMG long enough to have great respect for your opinions, and I'd love to approach the panel with knowledge of the great variety present on our lovely online forum. :)

Curious!

-G
Last edited by IcedNote on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Harakiried composer reincarnated as a nonprofit development guy.

John F
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:28 pm

A key word in your question is "should." Is there some obligation, artistic or moral or other, that orchestras must meet or... or what? Put that way, my answer would be no. Orchestras play what their conductors want to conduct and, they hope, what their audience wants to hear. It's a matter of taste, and as the famous saying goes, there's no arguing about taste.

So let's rephrase the question. Is it a good thing for orchestras to support new music? Which leads to another question, or maybe two. What does "support" entail? Playing the music, no doubt, but does it also require the orchestra to commission it, which doesn't exactly support the music but supports its composer and its publisher if any. And how new is "new"? A piece by a living composer which has never yet been performed would be new, even if the composer had it in his drawer for a while. But it's not just premieres that are important. Orchestras prefer them because they convey some prestige, but composers often say it's hard to get a second performance of their music. And if the piece has actually become popular, though new, does that matter?

My personal answer would be that I like it when orchestras perform new music, which for me means music by a living composer and/or composed within the last 25 years, because (a) it's good to hear music for the first time and for me that now takes an effort, and (b) the performance fee, and the commission if any, is some composer's livelihood, and I think it isn't just rock and commercial musicians who should be paid.
John Francis

piston
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:24 pm

Every new generation of classical music composers naturally aspires to leave behind its own, distinctive and recognizable, cultural legacy. Orchestras and opera houses that give voice to members of that new generation become key participants in a living art form; those more conservative ensembles whose repertoire is stuck between Haydn and Rachmaninoff, by contrast, live in a Classical and Romantic static art form.

Realistically, however, orchestras and opera houses cannot pay their artists six-digit salaries, with advantageous benefits, and program new music on any regular basis.... In my opinion, financial constraints are chiefly the source of today's very limited "support" of new music.

And, speaking of the Met's financial problems, its opera world premieres and United States premieres have been far and between for about half a century. Compared to the influential role it played during the first half of the century, with the scheduling of numerous such premieres, it has become a more conservative institution mostly re-living the past....
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:48 pm

The subject here isn't opera but orchestral music. Playing a new piece doesn't require anything like the expense of producing a new opera; a performance fee, a commission if the orchestra asked for it, maybe an extra rehearsal or maybe not. There's no serious financial or other obstacle to orchestras "supporting" new music - except that much of the public doesn't care for it.
John Francis

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by SONNET CLV » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:00 pm

IcedNote wrote: What'd I'd like to ask you is: why should orchestras support new music? What are your primary reasons for believing so? -G
Why should orchestras support "new" music? Because that is their life blood. After all, the "old" music is already laid down in countless recordings. There is actually no need for another sounding of Beethoven's Fifth when one can access dozens of very fine, nearly flawless recordings. But the new music is another matter. The orchestra that plays a new piece for the first time is presenting art that exists no where else in its realized form. For this real, live musicians are needed. We can enjoy fine Tchaikovsky symphonies from Mravinsky and his Russian orchestra of which probably most if not all the musicians are dead; but we need living, breathing musicians to realize the new art. And if we stop realizing new art, we might as well fold up the old art as well, because art is only important when it continues to grow and develop, just as our consciousnesses do, and our philosophies, and our history, and our very humanity.

barney
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by barney » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:17 pm

SONNET CLV wrote:
IcedNote wrote: What'd I'd like to ask you is: why should orchestras support new music? What are your primary reasons for believing so? -G
Why should orchestras support "new" music? Because that is their life blood. After all, the "old" music is already laid down in countless recordings. There is actually no need for another sounding of Beethoven's Fifth when one can access dozens of very fine, nearly flawless recordings. But the new music is another matter. The orchestra that plays a new piece for the first time is presenting art that exists no where else in its realized form. For this real, live musicians are needed. We can enjoy fine Tchaikovsky symphonies from Mravinsky and his Russian orchestra of which probably most if not all the musicians are dead; but we need living, breathing musicians to realize the new art. And if we stop realizing new art, we might as well fold up the old art as well, because art is only important when it continues to grow and develop, just as our consciousnesses do, and our philosophies, and our history, and our very humanity.
I see recorded music as a qualitatively different experience from a live concert. Both are good, but they are different, and I privilege live music over recordings. Although I have many fine 4 Last Songs, I nevertheless went to hear the Melbourne Symphony play it and Mahler 1 on Friday, a brilliant concert. They have seldom sounded better. Was Erin Wall a Schwarzkopf or Norman? Perhaps not, but she was really, really fine.
To get the public to listen to new music program it around old favourites, like a Beethoven piano concerto so they can feel virtuous, be extended, yet also enjoy something they KNOW they love. Music continues to evolve and now, as always, it is uneven in quality. So we have to persevere.

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:10 am

New music is not the life blood of orchestras - it's the other way around, willing orchestras are the life blood of new music. An orchestra can do very well indeed without playing a note composed after 1900, let alone 2000; cf. the enormous number of HIP orchestras around, who are making more recordings these days than the top traditional orchestras. There are also ensembles that devote themselves exclusively to new and modern music, like the InterContemporain, but they are fewer and tend to be chamber groups hiring fewer musicians.
John Francis

piston
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:27 am

Well-known musicians and conductors are the life blood of new music, more than orchestras. Why did Rostropovich, perhaps more than anybody else in recent decades, perform and record so many new works? From wiki:
Rostropovich also had long-standing artistic partnership with Henri Dutilleux (Tout un monde lointain... for cello and orchestra, Trois strophes sur le nom de Sacher for solo cello), Witold Lutoslawski (cello concerto, Sacher-Variation for solo cello), Krzysztof Penderecki (cello concerto n°2, Largo for cello and orchestra, Per Slava for solo cello, sextet for piano, clarinet, horn, violin, viola and cello), Luciano Berio (Ritorno degli snovidenia for cello and thirty instruments, Les mots sont allés... for solo cello) as well as Olivier Messiaen (Concert à quatre for piano, cello, oboe, flute and orchestra).
Rostropovich either commissioned or was the recipient of compositions by many composers including Dmitri Shostakovich, Sergei Prokofiev, Benjamin Britten, Henri Dutilleux, Olivier Messiaen, Witold Lutosławski, Luciano Berio, Krzysztof Penderecki, Leonard Bernstein, Alfred Schnittke, Aram Khachaturian, Ástor Piazzolla, Sofia Gubaidulina, Arthur Bliss and Lopes Graça. His commissions of new works enlarged the cello repertoire more than any previous cellist: he gave the premiere of 117 compositions
Merely to enlarge the cello repertoire? In contrast to patrons who mainly commissioned or performed new music composed by their compatriots -- a nationalist cultural endeavor found in a lot of countries -- his constant support for new cello music was international in scope. I'm sure that Slava, the patron and performer of new music, was aware of the public's lukewarm reception of most of that music. Perhaps he thought that this was to be expected because new music is seldom widely acclaimed at first.

Because of his dedication to new music, Rostropovich became a member of his generation of composers. He was their artistic partner.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

Ricordanza
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by Ricordanza » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:36 am

IcedNote wrote:What'd I'd like to ask you is: why should orchestras support new music?
In addition to the answers already provided, I'll turn the question around: If orchestras do not support new music, who will?

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:11 am

John F wrote:New music is not the life blood of orchestras - it's the other way around, willing orchestras are the life blood of new music.
No, the metaphor breaks down, reversed like that. I've scarcely had the privilege of working with any willing orchestra, but I write, all the same. I promise you, I shall continue to write even if no major orchestra plays my work until my ashes are in an urn.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
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Boston, Massachusetts
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:12 am

Ricordanza wrote:
IcedNote wrote:What'd I'd like to ask you is: why should orchestras support new music?
In addition to the answers already provided, I'll turn the question around: If orchestras do not support new music, who will?
Choirs and chamber organizations.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:13 am

piston wrote:Well-known musicians and conductors are the life blood of new music, more than orchestras.
Yes.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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piston
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:58 am

About the effects of financial problems on orchestral programs, we do know that several orchestras have turned to a mix of:
--great composers, like Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms;
--"pops," such as Louis Armstrong, the Beach Boys, and Paul McCartney;
--film music, such as the ever popular Star Wars;
--to spectacular visual effects, like the Cirque de la symphonie;
-- etc., to make ends meet.

With respect to new music, the Louisville Orchestra is not even the shadow of its former self! Its newest classical music consists of Copland's! The days of Robert Whitney and his "Adventurous Programming in Contemporary Music" are behind us.

But an orchestra like the B.S.O., being on a sound financial footing, can keep alive the Koussevitzky tradition by not only programming music composed 25 years ago by, now, veteran composers, but also of young composers such as Mason Bates (b. 1977), Avner Dorman (b. 1975), and Eriks Esenvalds (b. 1977). In fact, the latter wrote a work the BSO cocommissioned.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

Lance
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by Lance » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Hmm. A good question to ponder, but relatively easy for me to answer from my very own point of view with some commentary, which I hope you won't mind.

Too many times I have heard orchestras perform newly composed music. Generally, it is selected with great care not to "scare" an audience away. While most everyone agrees, serious music concert-goers attend to hear music with which they are familiar and pleased in hearing. I have also stood around at intermissions to hear comments. I remember well, hearing a couple of regular attendees say they were NOT going to resubscribe to their local orchestra if they continued to play "this kind" of "messy, unlistenable" music. That seems to be the general concensus I've discovered in hearing live "new" music in chamber- or orchestral works.

It comes down to what people want to hear. There's always a possibility concert-goers WILL be delighted by a new work they've never heard before. I suspect that percentage might be very low, however. For me, my likes are distributed (these days) fairly evenly between Baroque, Classical era, and Romantic period music up to about the time of Rachmaninoff's passing. Yes, I like (early) Copland, and hear works I've really enjoyed by such composers as John Adams (several works in fact, some of which I've had to write program notes for), Philip Glass, Nicholas Maw, Karl Henning (our own CMG composer - and I've done a radio program on his excellent work!), and quite a few others. So, I'm back to the Baroque-Classical-Romantic periods because THAT is the music I want and need to hear. And even then music from thoser periods is constantly being resurrected from the dust in libraries, churches, etc., constituting NEW music that appeals to my ears/brain, etc. I would LIKE to give new music a chance, but so much of it, in contrast to the OLD music, is too often offensive to my ears. It cannot be helped.

Oftentimes, people who love/enjoy new music will say that I'm not giving it a chance and I am cutting myself short of learning to enjoy new music. But I'm like the fly caught in the spider's web ... I know what I want to hear.

Where does all this put the composers of today. Given the technology of today, with fewer and fewer major orchestras performing new works ... even commissioned ones, rarely heard after the first performance (as someone noted in this thread, I think it was John Francis) ... the technology of today allows present-day compsoers to create works that can be heard on YouTube, custom-made CDs to be sold for distribution at their OWN concerts, and possibly over radio stations that "might" be available just for "new" music.

Of course, today's composers need to be heard, but it is a small percentage of the music-loving public that wants to hear contemporary music. It will most likely change as the the older population dies off (such as myself) and young people today are more exposed to new music because new composers are emerging every day. I know a young man who has written music for theater productions and shows ... 23 years old, and outstanding, because it is music that has form, melody, rhythm, and is easier on the ear than, say Stockhausen or any of that ilk.

I remember talking with Howard H. Scott of Columbia Records, now deceased, but a great guy and producer of recordings. Columbia issued a series of contemporary music LPs that was rather short-lived. He called one day to see if I could supply and LP since they were no longer around Columbia's stables. I had only a few of them, but not the one he wanted. The series did NOT do well and cost the company considerable money to produce. Those LPs go back to the late 1950s and 1960s. If Columbia couldn't sell their product, who could?

There is something about a fine wine that has aged over the years. Perhaps a bad anaology, but as the "old" music ages, nobody stops buying it (unless collectors like me have no more need for a Beethoven Fifth).

Orchestras and chamber music societies NEED to sell tickets. Perhaps it is not time - yet - to try to pay the composer, publisher, musicians, etc., to promote new music. Composers, as Karl Henning suggests, will continue to be inspired to write music and will not stop writing it because it is in his veins.

I think there IS a place for contemporary music, though perhaps, a small area at the moment that will probably grow at a snail's pace. The whole "classical music industry" has undergone major changes with mergers, the release of artists - great ones - repackaging the "old stuff" since those are the names that seem to be carried forward.

You know, I love most of the recordings of British pianist JOHN OGDON. Then I heard a huge piece of music performed by him by Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji entitled Clavicembalisticum completed in June 1930. That was certainly new music THEN, and it certainly sounds new today. No matter how much I love John Ogdon as a pianist, I simply cannot get through this huge composition, which fills three CDs, even at a CD at a time.

So, to answer the original question - "should orchestras support new music?" Probably yes, to some degree. However, it will only be orchestras of the highest caliber, such as the BSO, NYP, SFSO, Berlin PO, Vienna PO, LPO, LSO, etc., et al that will be able to afford it. Local 2nd- and 3rd tier orchestras will not be able to do it on a regular basis. Koussevitzky was an exception as was Monteux and Stokowski, the latter to some degree.

Maybe we can take a poll on CMG. Let's see what happens!

Just one man's thoughts, not to create problems nor make anyone feel badly. It's just as I have seen things over that last many decades and what listeners think of "new" music. After this generation, things will assuredly change. ♫
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John F
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:12 am

You mentioned (American) Columbia's many recordings of modern and contemporary music during the 1950s. For them we can thank Goddard Lieberson, America's greatest record producer for classical music, who cannily balanced important projects that wouldn't sell well with more marketable repertoire and now-classic accounts of Beethoven and Brahms. The first ever recording of Berg's "Wozzeck," for example, was made in the same year as the first ever complete recording of "Porgy and Bess."
John Francis

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by maestrob » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:24 pm

Foundation money supporting the composers' works helps the budget a great deal. :mrgreen:

That said, new music freshens the ear, especially if it pleases. To add to the canon of works with multiple performances composers should take note of that maxim.

It's difficult to be new and write great music at the same time, but it's still possible.

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:20 pm

maestrob wrote:That said, new music freshens the ear, especially if it pleases. To add to the canon of works with multiple performances composers should take note of that maxim.
Which is why I find it so gratifying when a piece is performed more than once.

At the AGO events at First Church in Boston, the choir sang my Love is the spirit of this church for what was likely the sixth and seventh public performances. That would not have been the case, if the choir director did not think very well of the music.

Cheers,
~Karl
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piston
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:00 pm

This composer, still in his thirties, is having quite a bit of success being "supported" and performed:
Avner Dorman has quickly risen to become one of the leading composers of his generation. Dorman's unique approach to rhythm and timbre has attracted some of the world's most notable conductors, including Zubin Mehta, Christoph Eschenbach, Riccardo Chailly, David Robertson, Andris Nelsons, Marin Alsop, and Justin Brown to bring his music to audiences of the New York Philharmonic, the Israel Philharmonic, Carnegie Hall, the San Francisco Symphony, the Musikverein, the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the NHK Symphony, Salzburg Festival, Lucerne Festival, Cabrillo Music Festival, and others. Dorman's music achieves a rare combination of rigorous compositional construction while preserving the sense of excitement and spontaneity usually associated with Jazz, Rock, or Ethnic Music. Dorman's percussion concerti, Spices, Perfumes, Toxins! and Frozen in Time (2007), are quickly becoming staples of the repertoire. They are performed and studied around the world.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

piston
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:30 pm

By the way, IcedNote, the url you've provided in the opening message is for the American Society of Clinical Oncology.... :lol:
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by Heck148 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:21 pm

I believe that orchestras, choirs, chamber music groups have an obligation to explore new works, and to present them to the public.
If they don't do this, music would stagnate, nothing new would ever be heard. the performing ensembles would become rigid, static purveyors of popular "warhorses" and new and unfamiliar works would be unjustifiably shelved, and never heard. This is a musical dead-end...

the public needs to be challenged constantly, but this challenge needs to be tempered by programming of works which are familiar and popular. Organizations must sell tickets - they must put people in the seats...

orchestras and performing groups need to be challenged with new works...new techniques, new textures, new sounds. A constant steady diet of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff kills an orchestra...the musicians lose interest, they lose spontaneity, the playing becomes routine, generic....

Programming is a major challenge for all conductors/music directors. mixing the popular, famiiar with the new and unknown is a delicate balance.

Let's expand the scope as well - not just brand, new recently composed music - but the many excellent unknown masterpieces of the 20th century...there are scores, no, hundreds of great 20th century orchestra works that beg for exposure -
many of these are readily approachable and immediately effective...

New music is very much like new movies, or new literature - there are many, many new ones all the time...many are mediocre or of less quality...but there are some which are great, and will pass the test of time. However, if they are never presented, they will never even be given the test...
it's up to the conducotrs, music directors to see that new works are presented.

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by IcedNote » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:25 pm

piston wrote:By the way, IcedNote, the url you've provided in the opening message is for the American Society of Clinical Oncology.... :lol:
:shock: :mrgreen:

Silly typo...

Will respond to all of your wonderful responses when I have more time!

-G
Harakiried composer reincarnated as a nonprofit development guy.

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:38 pm

It may come as no surprise to some that Debussy's La Mer was not a success, in Boston and New York City, when it was first performed. (How long it took before it was performed again by those orchestras is not easily accessible information because of a tendency to focus on premieres). But what, exactly, was said and how can these negative comments inform our discussion about new music today? It was, back then, about conventions, prescriptions and expectations, no less than it is right here, today. Excerpts from a review of the United States' premiere of La Mer by the Boston Symphony Orchestra, in 1907:
It is doubtful if the music made a very definite impression upon many of those who heard it; for it is nothing if not elusive, and it wears none of the hall-marks which long convention has associated with music which assumes to express the sea. It has none of the expected furies and obvious calms of the traditional seascape -- how well one knows the precise orchestral methods by which the average music-makers will depict his waves and tempests, his moderating winds, and the long roll and swell of his waves! There are prescriptions --do we not all know them?-- for denoting easily the shriek of the gale (chromatic runs in the wood wind); the swell and roar of the storm (pompous figures in the brass under string tremolos); recovered gladness and serenity (an evenly rhythmed and gliding passage from the horns). These things are unvarying, as inevitable as painfully cliché, as the oboe and muted strings of the pastoral, the diatonic trombone harmonies of the chorale. Debussy unostentiously and without affectation, has eschewed them. [...]
For Debussy, the sea is wholly a thing of dreams, a thing vaguely, yet rhapsodically perceived, a bodiless thing, a thing of shapes that are gaunt or lovely, wayward or capricious.{...]
But it is a sea that is shut away from too-curious an inspection, to whose murmurs and imperious commands few have needed to pay heed: a sea whose eternal sonorities and immutable enchantments are hidden behind veils that open to few, and to none who attend without, it may be, a certain rapt and eagerness.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ErZCAQ ... 's&f=false

Conventions, prescriptions, and expectations are the reasons why new music seldom finds immediate success. The public is already conditioned to expect something it is familiar with.

But Debussy's work was nevertheless performed. In Paris, in 1905, it was not successful and the composer, who was famous after all, took command of the orchestra in 1908 to achieve a somewhat more positive outcome. In Boston, in 1907, without any notable success and in New York City, with the same result. I believe that it became more popular over time because so many conductors were willing to perform a bunch of new works during the first half of the 20th century. Gradually, conventions, prescriptions and expectations changed.

And that is what is at stake if orchestras, for whatever reason, including financial pressures to "pop" up their programs, fail to introduce new music to a public seriously interested in classical music: we'll get stuck with never-changing conventions.

Speaking of what can happen to an orchestra under financial pressure to bring in the cash, it's pretty sad to look at the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra's calendar of events on its homepage. And, yet, it is considered a financial recovery success story. :roll:
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:26 am

piston wrote:Conventions, prescriptions, and expectations are the reasons why new music seldom finds immediate success. The public is already conditioned to expect something it is familiar with.
Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes.

And while I esteem Lance highly, and want to honor his request that new music be pleasing on first hearing . . . one of the lessons of Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective is that there is a wealth of standard repertory, in which we could not hope to find any sonic offense, but which struck their first hearers as "unpleasant."

Your example of La mer is wonderfully apt.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
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diegobueno
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by diegobueno » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:41 am

One might add that the less audiences hear new music, the less likely they're going to be able to like it at first hearing, the less likely they're going to be able to hear something in it they can relate to, something that means something to them, so that giving them what they already know will just reinforce the idea that what they already know is all they need to know.

No, I think orchestras have a duty to introduce people to music they don't know, couldn't imagine existed, music that they would never seek out on their own via recordings. They then have the duty to follow up and make this new music available via recordings so that listeners who liked it can seek it out after the concert and get to know it and look forward to hearing it on another concert.

This past year I attended a concert at the Kennedy Center with the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Dudamel. The program consisted of the Corigliano 1st symphony (i.e. the "AIDS symphony") and Tchaikovsky 5th. Before the program someone from some board of trustees got up and gave one of those unfortunate self-congratulatory speeches telling us how wonderful the concert was going to be. She gushed that the orchestra was celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Corigliano symphony, as if it were already part of the standard rep. That may be hype, but most pieces written in 1988 have to be presented as something brand new. The piece does have a following, and was very well received, given a standing O and everything. Of course every concert gets a standing ovation these days, though it doesn't always happen at intermission. Someone's got to perform this music before that can happen.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:24 pm

diegobueno wrote:the less audiences hear new music, the less likely they're going to be able to like it at first hearing...
New music is too diverse to make a generalization like that. Hearing new music by Adams, Glass, and Reich does not make it more likely that one will be able to like Boulez or Stockhausen at first hearing. And as you say, new music like Corigliano's that's within a country mile of the mainstream repertoire can be well received when heard for the first time - "The Ghosts of Versailles" got a prolonged, cheering ovation at its premiere.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:33 pm

John F wrote:New music is too diverse to make a generalization like that. Hearing new music by Adams, Glass, and Reich does not make it more likely that one will be able to like Boulez or Stockhausen at first hearing.
And there are those who on a first hearing of Adams and of Boulez, will prefer the latter.

Probably, the case could me made that the majority will find otherwise; but here (as in so many aspects of society) it is tyranny to marginalize the minority ; )

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diegobueno
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by diegobueno » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:51 pm

John F wrote:
diegobueno wrote:the less audiences hear new music, the less likely they're going to be able to like it at first hearing...
New music is too diverse to make a generalization like that. Hearing new music by Adams, Glass, and Reich does not make it more likely that one will be able to like Boulez or Stockhausen at first hearing. And as you say, new music like Corigliano's that's within a country mile of the mainstream repertoire can be well received when heard for the first time - "The Ghosts of Versailles" got a prolonged, cheering ovation at its premiere.
I don't know what generalization you think I'm making, but the diversity of contemporary composition is besides the point. I'll say it again: The less audiences hear new music, the less likely they're going to be able to like it at first hearing. This stands true whether you're talking about Adams or Boulez.

You see, there are those for whom any contemporary music, no matter how many country miles it is from mainstream repertoire is still not going to go down well. I recently attended a concert of the National Philharmonic, an all-American program consisting of a violin concerto by Andreas Makris, the Serenade after Plato by Leonard Bernstein and two other pieces by composers whose names I don't remember. All of it very approachable repertoire, quite a bit less than a country mile from the mainstream style. Here they're playing in this huge Strathmore Auditorium in Bethesda, and so few people showed up, they shut down the upper seating levels and upgraded people's seats to the lower levels closer to the stage. It was all new and unfamiliar and scary and all that so people didn't come. Simply the presence of unfamiliar names on the program was enough to keep people away.

So orchestras should play new music, if for no other reason than to make audience members realize that unfamiliar names are not necessarily going to bite them.

I make no presumptions about what kind of contemporary music is played. It should all be played. The diversity of new music is one of its strengths. No one can say "it all sounds alike".
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:08 pm

It's pretty interesting how much big orchestras differ in their support of new music. Compared to Pittsburgh, Cleveland is not at all afraid to program contemporary works and to develop a long-term partnership with at least one relatively young composer:
The Cleveland Orchestra will perform the world premiere of Matthias Pintscher’s idyl, for orchestra in October 2014 under Franz Welser-Möst’s direction. The work was co-commissioned by The Cleveland Orchestra, the Bayerische Rundfunk Orchester, and the Melbourne Symphony. The Orchestra will perform the world premiere of a new work by Ryan Wigglesworth, as part of the concerts celebrating the 90th birthday of Pierre Boulez.

Matthias Pintscher was The Cleveland Orchestra’s second Daniel R. Lewis Young Composer Fellow, for 2000-02. During that period, the Orchestra commissioned and performed the world premiere of his with lilies white (May 2002) and subsequently performed the United States premieres of his CHOC (Monumento IV), his violin concerto en sourdine (both in May 2003), and his Five Orchestral Pieces (September 2007). Mr. Pintscher made his Cleveland Orchestra conducting debut with CHOC (Monumento IV). The Cleveland Orchestra gave the world premiere performance of Pintscher’s Chute d’Etoiles [“Falling Stars”] at the Lucerne Festival in August 2012, followed by the U.S. premiere at Severance Hall in November 2012.

In addition to the premieres of the Pintscher and Wigglesworth works, other contemporary works to be performed during the 2014-15 season include John Adams’s Harmonielehre, Luca Francesconi’s Cobalt, Scarlet: Two Colors of Dawn, Toshio Hosokawa’s Meditation, dedicated to the victims of the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and tsunami, Arvo Pärt’s Cantus in Memory of Benjamin Britten, and Jörg Widmann’s Violin Concerto with Christian Tetzlaff as soloist.

Jörg Widmann was The Cleveland Orchestra’s sixth Daniel R. Lewis Young Composer Fellow, for 2009 to 2011. The Orchestra premiered his work titled Flûte en suite with Cleveland Orchestra Principal Flute Joshua Smith as soloist in 2011. The Cleveland Orchestra and Franz Welser-Möst gave the U.S. premiere performances of Widmann’s Teufel Amor - Sinfonischer Hymnos nach Schiller in January 2014.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:10 pm

diegobueno wrote:
John F wrote:
diegobueno wrote:the less audiences hear new music, the less likely they're going to be able to like it at first hearing...
New music is too diverse to make a generalization like that. Hearing new music by Adams, Glass, and Reich does not make it more likely that one will be able to like Boulez or Stockhausen at first hearing. And as you say, new music like Corigliano's that's within a country mile of the mainstream repertoire can be well received when heard for the first time - "The Ghosts of Versailles" got a prolonged, cheering ovation at its premiere.
I don't know what generalization you think I'm making, but the diversity of contemporary composition is besides the point. I'll say it again: The less audiences hear new music, the less likely they're going to be able to like it at first hearing. This stands true whether you're talking about Adams or Boulez.
If you mean music that's new to them, it's true whether you're talking about Telemann or Haydn or Bruch. If you're talking about new music period, then how can you possibly say it makes no difference whether the new music is diatonic, that is in the harmonic language of the 18th and 19th centuries, or totally dissonant? That's the generalization I say you shouldn't make because it isn't true.
diegobueno wrote:there are those for whom any contemporary music, no matter how many country miles it is from mainstream repertoire is still not going to go down well. I recently attended a concert of the National Philharmonic, an all-American program consisting of a violin concerto by Andreas Makris, the Serenade after Plato by Leonard Bernstein and two other pieces by composers whose names I don't remember. All of it very approachable repertoire, quite a bit less than a country mile from the mainstream style. Here they're playing in this huge Strathmore Auditorium in Bethesda, and so few people showed up, they shut down the upper seating levels and upgraded people's seats to the lower levels closer to the stage. It was all new and unfamiliar and scary and all that so people didn't come. Simply the presence of unfamiliar names on the program was enough to keep people away.

So orchestras should play new music, if for no other reason than to make audience members realize that unfamiliar names are not necessarily going to bite them.

Don't you see that your second paragraph contradicts the first? If orchestras play new music and the audience therefore doesn't come, how does this make the audience realize that new music isn't going to bite them, and come hear it?
John Francis

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by barney » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:27 pm

I interviewed English pianist Nicolas Hodges, now based in Germany, last night for an article (I'm back doing some music journalism, after the Age/Sydney Morning Herald reversed their policy on not using former employees for two years). He is a noted champion of new music. His comments on contemporary music will only get a paragraph or two in the article, as he is playing Beethoven and Debussy, but I am sure he would not mind me sharing this slightly redacted transcript, in which my questions are summed up in a word, but the meaning is clear.

"Contemporary music is very popular in the sense that there are thousands of concerts of contemporary music every day all around the world, and there are lots of audiences and people who are listening and consuming it. It’s a fallacy to suggest it’s unpopular. Of course it doesn’t have as large an audience as Tchaikovsky’s 1812 or pop music, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a healthy audience for it. It has an important place in musical society, that’s for sure. In terms of history, one just has to meet a serious accomplished composer today to see that they are really following the same track as previous composers in the sense that they are consumed by music and consumed by their effort to express their ideas in terms of music. And being able to work with composers who are consumed with the idea music and composition is really wonderful, and it’s given me an amazing perspective on older music as well because I get to ask the composer what they meant with contemporary music, that means I understand much more clearly the relationship between the idea and the score.
Trends? I used to think there were trends but I’m beginning to realise and accept that actually the trends one observes are to do with fashion and how music is publicised., there may be trends about what music is publicised and may be considered a la mode in certain territories, but I have realised that when you get down to composer level there aren’t really trends in the same way, the composers are just doing their work. The trends that surface is mostly to do with how music is publicised and taken up by society, which is not the same thing. One trend I see is that more music is being written, there is more education which is directed towards composition, young composers are better and better informed about some things than they used to be, and that is a good thing.
Played in a century? It’s a v interesting question, because in a way the concept of musical history is a new concept. By the time you get to classical music, composers understood that Bach and Handel were important. Music before Bach all the way back to the beginning of the millennium had no influence on Beethoven. Bach was discov by Mendelssohn and promoted by him, and in the 20th c with a dramatic increase of musical education we had a concept of musical history. For many centuries music was disposable. There is a lot of music which is popular now which is basically not very good and I don’t suppose will last very long, both composers and whole areas of music that I am sure will not last. But what will float to the surface is another question which is unanswerable."

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by THEHORN » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:45 pm

If orchestras of the past had not supported what was then new music , we would not have so many of the great etablished masterpieces of the orchestral repertoire today . Think about it .

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by dulcinea » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:45 pm

Dulcinea Quijano will be 60 on 18 September 2014. She knows almost all that is considered standard repertoire, so now she is interested in what will perhaps be a part of the repertoire in the future. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:07 pm

A lot of choices. As an example or two, for contemporary Argentinian music with a lot of Latino flavors try Golijov and dance to Piazzolla.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by slofstra » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:34 pm

There is only a small audience for genuinely 'new' music. Using our mid-size Symphony Orchestra as a reference point, I think brand new compositions and untested composers should be played only in a limited 'New Music' series in a small venue.
Newer composers who have acquired a reputation, say, Golijov, Lutoslawski, Berio, Pfitzner, Louie, Estacio, and so on, should receive exposure in marquee music series, like our local orchestras' Signature Series, and on occasion, the Pops Series, but that should be the limit of new music in those series.
It takes time for an audience to appreciate newer forms of music, and lets' face it, some maybe most new music will wither and die. The main concert series is no place to experiment, because 90% of the audience are unwilling guinea pigs. But 'New Music' series, if programmed well, can draw a few hundred patrons, especially if the best players from the main orchestra handle these concerts. A series like this can also allow the main chairs to indulge their personal passions or stretch their abilities.

And "should" orchestras do this? Absolutely, a community endowment-supported orchestra should do more than just put bums in seats. First, they are the leading lights and examples for all musical performance, especially young students taking music lessons. Second, they keep the flame of music compositional excellence alive; through keeping the classics alive, but also through creating the classics of tomorrow. But if you recognize those priorities you recognize that a healthy percentage of the investment is simply not going to bear fruit. And that's why I think new music should be looked at as an incubation/ experimentation exercise involving only those patrons who recognize those goals, and are 'early adopters' and seekers rather than those with fixed expectations.

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:16 am

Pfitzner? He was in Mahler's generation, though he lived until 1949, and his signature work, the opera "Palestrina," was premiered in 1917. I suspect you may have some other composer in mind.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by slofstra » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:54 am

John F wrote:Pfitzner? He was in Mahler's generation, though he lived until 1949, and his signature work, the opera "Palestrina," was premiered in 1917. I suspect you may have some other composer in mind.
There are various minor composers of the early 20th Century that show up here and there in the Dutch 1950s/60s recordings I have. Hans Hotter sings something Pfitzner wrote called "Der Gartner" (German recording, of course). But perhaps I was thinking of Willem Pijper or Hendrik Andriessen. I rather like some of that stuff.
I was just randomly picking names though without a lot of thought.

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:39 pm

The Rite of Spring, I think, could not have been performed, 101 years ago, if it had been limited to a small audience of one hundred avant-guardiste classical music lovers, unless the members of the big orchestra and the dancers had been paid a couple of pennies for their extraordinary expenditure of artistic energy.

The hard question to answer is what would have become of classical music in the first quarter of the 20th century without The Rite of Spring?!

Keep the doors of our orchestral halls wide open for contemporary music. You never know what might stir the audience of first hating but then radically changing its expectations.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:07 pm

Perspective. When one looks at the history of classical music from the perspective of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, a lot of "great composers" from earlier eras sound soooo repetitive! Now, imagine a young classical music lover who starts with that work and other Bartok works, such as The Miraculous Mandarin. That's her/his initial understanding of classical music, the point of reference from which to listen to all other works. Do you seriously believe that such an individual will fall in deep love with Haydn and Mozart?! Or is that too much of a cultural taboo to raise as a question?

We assess new music, however defined, depending on our many individual points of reference. And if you're a Latino lover of classical music, your point of reference could be Villa-Lobos or Revueltas, Chavez or Ginastera, etc.

The very notion that all classical music lovers should agree on the same points of reference --Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler-- and measure new music on those bases is what has led our music world to a demographic point where it is too often no longer a viable financial proposition. Now, ain't that a kicker?!
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:40 pm

Nearly all music is highly repetitive, definitely including Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. Repetition is the essence of musical form. It's also key to popularity if we step outside classical music; that's why the verses of a song are set to the same tune, and why playing the same song over and over makes it popular. You're on the wrong track.

I don't believe there can be many whose initial experience of classical music has been Bartok rather than Beethoven. That's just not how musical life is, now or ever. Even more rare would be those whose initial experience of music has been through classical music, rather than lullabyes, folk songs, pop songs - and these are simpler and more repetitive than even the simplest works of Haydn and Mozart. Classical music is for people who like their music complicated. :) There's plenty of complication in Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:59 am

John F wrote:I don't believe there can be many whose initial experience of classical music has been Bartok rather than Beethoven. That's just not how musical life is, now or ever.
Well, there are some, and there will probably be more (listeners who know Bartók before Beethoven) since musical life is increasingly a matter of readily accessible recordings, and performance events become more a supplemental rather than the principal experience of many listeners.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by John F » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:23 am

Yeah, but.
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by Heck148 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:35 am

karlhenning wrote:
John F wrote:I don't believe there can be many whose initial experience of classical music has been Bartok rather than Beethoven. That's just not how musical life is, now or ever.
Well, there are some, and there will probably be more (listeners who know Bartók before Beethoven) since musical life is increasingly a matter of readily accessible recordings, and performance events become more a supplemental rather than the principal experience of many listeners.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl - I agree - I knew quite a number of students at conservatory whose introductions to"classical' music were Stravinsky, Bartok, etc...They ended up having great admiration for Mozart Haydn as well, once they were exposed...I'm not so sure the 'point of entry" is all that crucial - the great music speaks for itself...

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:03 pm

Indeed! "There's more ways to the woods than one."

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by lennygoran » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:27 pm

karlhenning wrote:Indeed! "There's more ways to the woods than one."

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl on our way back from Maine we stayed with relatives in Wayland-one of their daughter as a college student got a chance to visit the Sydney Opera House--what terrible luck-- her first and only opera was Lulu! Regards, Len :(

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by karlhenning » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:38 pm

lennygoran wrote:
karlhenning wrote:Indeed! "There's more ways to the woods than one."
Karl on our way back from Maine we stayed with relatives in Wayland-one of their daughter as a college student got a chance to visit the Sydney Opera House--what terrible luck-- her first and only opera was Lulu! Regards, Len :(
For some (but, clearly, not all), Len, that experience would have been inspiring.

Somewhere else, someone is writing "--what terrible luck--her first and only opera was Faust!" ; )

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by lennygoran » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:57 pm

karlhenning wrote:For some (but, clearly, not all), Len, that experience would have been inspiring.

Somewhere else, someone is writing "--what terrible luck--her first and only opera was Faust!"
Karl come on now-a 19 year old who has little experience with classical music and no experience with an opera-I'll give 10 to 1 odds most people like that will favor boheme over lulu! Regards, Len :)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by Heck148 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:01 pm

lennygoran wrote:
karlhenning wrote:For some (but, clearly, not all), Len, that experience would have been inspiring.

Somewhere else, someone is writing "--what terrible luck--her first and only opera was Faust!"
Karl come on now-a 19 year old who has little experience with classical music and no experience with an opera-I'll give 10 to 1 odds most people like that will favor boheme over lulu! Regards, Len :)
When I was in high school I belonged to a kids music club...we went to New York or Boston every year for a club annual trip...one year, we had a choice at the old Met - Verdi "Aida", or Strauss "Salome" - we, as a group picked "Salome" - Nilsson, Bohm conducting...

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by lennygoran » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:40 pm

Heck148 wrote:
When I was in high school I belonged to a kids music club...we went to New York or Boston every year for a club annual trip...one year, we had a choice at the old Met - Verdi "Aida", or Strauss "Salome" - we, as a group picked "Salome" - Nilsson, Bohm conducting...
Wow how fortunate you were! Still Aida and Salome are definitely not Lulu--maybe the kids just wanted to see the Dance of the Seven Veils! Regards, Len :)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:45 pm

And back in the early seventies, in my teens, my knowledge of classical music mostly consisted of Bartok, Debussy, and that whole time period of the first half of the twentieth century. That was my point of entry from which I listened to everything else.

From that perspective, and I remind John F. of Debussy's agenda against leitmotivs and repetitiveness, Vivaldi ranked 10th on my ten-point scale of redundancy. It's not that music should never be repetitive; it's that some composers are always or all too frequently redundant! Beethoven is not repetitive; he is quite creative. The great Haydn is quite repetitive.

As for Bartok, you've got to be kidding me, John F.! This remarkably creative composer begins in the style of Liszt, touches Debussy briefly, and then moves with determination in creating a language of his own that constantly seeks a new musical vocabulary. No Haydn here and no apostle of a rigid atonal system either.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Why should orchestras support new music?

Post by piston » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:23 pm

Ditto with Ravel. Many people comment on the fact that he was not especially prolific. But have they taken the time to listen to the distinct, original nature of so many of his works? Ravel and others like him are composers who did not see the point in writing a work that was a simple outgrowth or variation of previous works. There's nothing creatively remarkable about this sort of additive production. Roussel is another such composer who comes to mind.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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