Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

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dulcinea
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Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by dulcinea » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:00 pm

You all know how many talented Jews had to leave Europe because of Hitler; how many can you mention?
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:09 pm

First, perhaps we should limit this to musical talent and those who came to the USA (as the subject line implies), not just those who fled Hitler. That eliminates such as Sigmund Freud, who fled to England but whose sisters were Holocaust victims, on both counts.

I guess we can start with Arnold Schoenberg.

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Chalkperson » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:20 pm

Am I the only one offended by this Thread?

This is the classical board, perhaps you forgot that in your rush to provoke.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by dulcinea » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:35 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Am I the only one offended by this Thread?

This is the classical board, perhaps you forgot that in your rush to provoke.
'tis precisely because this is the classical board that I ask about people such as the Klemperer family and Darius Milhaud.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Chalkperson » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:39 pm

dulcinea wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Am I the only one offended by this Thread?

This is the classical board, perhaps you forgot that in your rush to provoke.
'tis precisely because this is the classical board that I ask about people such as the Klemperer family and Darius Milhaud.
Then perhaps you would care to put that in your opening post. As usual you consider this board your playpen.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by John F » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:57 pm

dulcinea wrote:You all know how many talented Jews had to leave Europe because of Hitler; how many can you mention?
Not just Jews. Many non-Jews who were opposed to Naziism had to flee for their lives, and many of them came eventually to the United States, though of course this wasn't their only place of refuge. Two such were the conductor Arturo Toscanini, who became a New York resident, and Hugo Burghauser, first bassoon of the Vienna State Opera and the Vienna Philharmonic's elected manager, who took his place in the Metropolitan Opera orchestra. Others landed elsewhere, such as Erich Kleiber in Argentina and Fritz Busch in England.

It wasn't just the conductors, instrumental soloists, and singers we know by name who fled from Naziism and Fascism to the U.S. Many instrumentalists joined American orchestras in the 1940s, and the faculties of American universities and music conservatories. Not hundreds but thousands, I believe - far too many to count.

I'm not in the least "offended" by this thread and don't see why anyone would be. The wording of the subject isn't the happiest, but the topic is important.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Chalkperson » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:04 pm

John F wrote:
dulcinea wrote:You all know how many talented Jews had to leave Europe because of Hitler; how many can you mention?
Not just Jews. Many non-Jews who were opposed to Naziism had to flee for their lives, and many of them came eventually to the United States, though of course this wasn't their only place of refuge. Two such were the conductor Arturo Toscanini, who became a New York resident, and Hugo Burghauser, first bassoon of the Vienna State Opera and the Vienna Philharmonic's elected manager, who took his place in the Metropolitan Opera orchestra. Others landed elsewhere, such as Erich Kleiber in Argentina and Fritz Busch in England.

It wasn't just the conductors, instrumental soloists, and singers we know by name who fled from Naziism and Fascism to the U.S. Many instrumentalists joined American orchestras in the 1940s, and the faculties of American universities and music conservatories. Not hundreds but thousands, I believe - far too many to count.

I'm not in the least "offended" by this thread and don't see why anyone would be. The wording of the subject isn't the happiest, but the topic is important.
Sorry, the word title was for some reason omitted from my post. Probably when I deleted the rest of my comment, which was that fleeing Naziism is not the same as being exported. To me those words apply to the millions he had killed in the concentration camps.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by piston » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:14 pm

A lot of fascinating exile stories, from the early exile of Kurt Weill to the great Danish escape of Borge Rosenbaum. It was like a ten-year tsunami that forced well-established artists to run for their lives ... OR to stay and hide. The latter is a less known story. Jews, such as René Leibowitz, and non-Jews married to a Jewish spouse, such as André Jolivet (a French soldier who saw most of his comrades killed during the invasion), went into hiding in southern France, where they composed and were involved in the resistance.

So, it's not all about US exports and some of these European Jews who sought refuge across the Atlantic came back home after the war (e.g., N. Boulanger and D. Milhaud) but maintained close artistic and pedagogical ties with the US.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Lance » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:37 am

My mind immediately thought of harpsichordist/pianist Wanda Landowska, who lost everything she had that she couldn't take with her when she left France. I visited Landowska's home in Lakeville, Connecticut and interviewed her companion and student, Denise Restout (now deceased), who related much to be about all this. While Landowska converted to Catholicism, as did so many Jews, many of whom did it to try to protect their lives as much as possible. What goes on in their hearts, of course, is an entirely different matter. I still shudder to think that I was born when this was going on in the world ... what atrocious times these were in a so-called civilized world.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by dulcinea » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:35 pm

Lance wrote:My mind immediately thought of harpsichordist/pianist Wanda Landowska, who lost everything she had that she couldn't take with her when she left France. I visited Landowska's home in Lakeville, Connecticut and interviewed her companion and student, Denise Restout (now deceased), who related much to be about all this. While Landowska converted to Catholicism, as did so many Jews, many of whom did it to try to protect their lives as much as possible. What goes on in their hearts, of course, is an entirely different matter. I still shudder to think that I was born when this was going on in the world ... what atrocious times these were in a so-called civilized world.
Did your parents tell you about WWII? My mother, who was born in 1929, is no help; she has lived with blinders all her life, to the point that she does not even remember the pop singers of that time of Puerto Rico's history.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by piston » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:01 pm

They didn't talk about it and surviving WWII vets I have encountered at the American Legion don't either but they proudly wear their WWII cap. And it makes sense that they didn't/don't: who likes to talk about painful memories?!

To reconnect with this C.M. Chatterbox, music composition does offer a means to "talk" about it with thematic emotions rather than with words. That's a huge part of Weinberg's artistic life right there, along with Shostakovich, and countless others.

But am I right in the perception that Russian/Soviet composers were far more prolific on that very theme than their western counterparts?
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:51 am

dulcinea wrote:
Lance wrote:My mind immediately thought of harpsichordist/pianist Wanda Landowska, who lost everything she had that she couldn't take with her when she left France. I visited Landowska's home in Lakeville, Connecticut and interviewed her companion and student, Denise Restout (now deceased), who related much to be about all this. While Landowska converted to Catholicism, as did so many Jews, many of whom did it to try to protect their lives as much as possible. What goes on in their hearts, of course, is an entirely different matter. I still shudder to think that I was born when this was going on in the world ... what atrocious times these were in a so-called civilized world.
Did your parents tell you about WWII? My mother, who was born in 1929, is no help; she has lived with blinders all her life, to the point that she does not even remember the pop singers of that time of Puerto Rico's history.
I hate to break this to you, Dulcinea. But...

No generation ever talks about the War, it's too painful for most who endured it, or lost relatives in combat. I only found out two days before my father died that I had two great uncles who died in WW1. I never even knew they existed.

But you knew that already, as always your threads are for your own amusement, we are just your pawns.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by dulcinea » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:20 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
dulcinea wrote:
Lance wrote:My mind immediately thought of harpsichordist/pianist Wanda Landowska, who lost everything she had that she couldn't take with her when she left France. I visited Landowska's home in Lakeville, Connecticut and interviewed her companion and student, Denise Restout (now deceased), who related much to be about all this. While Landowska converted to Catholicism, as did so many Jews, many of whom did it to try to protect their lives as much as possible. What goes on in their hearts, of course, is an entirely different matter. I still shudder to think that I was born when this was going on in the world ... what atrocious times these were in a so-called civilized world.
Did your parents tell you about WWII? My mother, who was born in 1929, is no help; she has lived with blinders all her life, to the point that she does not even remember the pop singers of that time of Puerto Rico's history.
I hate to break this to you, Dulcinea. But...

No generation ever talks about the War, it's too painful for most who endured it, or lost relatives in combat. I only found out two days before my father died that I had two great uncles who died in WW1. I never even knew they existed.

But you knew that already, as always your threads are for your own amusement, we are just your pawns.
?Que bicho os pico? What bug bit you?
Why would you begrudge me my desire to know more about an event that, judging from sources such as this very website, is still of great interest to countless individuals around the world?
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by piston » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:29 pm

It is a great momentous event, but a very complicated one too. It's complicated for American civilians who saw their country join the hand of the greatest communist nation on earth, led by a despicable tyrant, to defeat Hitler. It was very complicated for Shostakovich, as he wrote his seventh symphony, because of his political duty to his people, notwithstanding his absolute hatred of the monster who led those peoples to their death.

It was an awful mess and we've made that mess into a positive story for future generations. But, for the generation that fought and experienced that war, it's a great destructive mess that almost cannot be talked about.

It's a tribute to Shostakovich that he was so good at communicating this incredible and senseless human tragedy in music that his seventh symphony was a tremendous success in the West.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by John F » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:07 am

piston wrote:But am I right in the perception that Russian/Soviet composers were far more prolific on that very theme than their western counterparts?
No doubt, but I'm sure that's partly because Soviet music lagged its western counterpart because of the regime's esthetic demands. Specifically, Stalin & Co. were constantly requiring composers to write music on themes of the rulers' choice. Prokofiev's last opera "Story of a Real Man," one of his weakest, and the more recent "The Dawns Here Are Quiet" by Molchanov, show that the subject of the Great Patriotic War did not always inspire Soviet composers, even a great one such as Prokofiev, to compose great music.

More generally, though program music remained a popular genre in the Soviet Union, western music moved away from it during the 20th century, and the genres in which musical depiction of some kind is inevitable, opera and non-abstract ballet, did not often take current events as their subject matter. An exception is the orchestral piece "Memorial to Lidice," composed by Martinu in America during the war as a response to the massacre but not a depiction of it. This has changed recently, thanks mainly to John Adams and his frequent collaborator Peter Sellars; Adams's "Doctor Atomic" is concerned with a crucial stage of World War II.

But all this was not for lack of popular interest. While I was growing up in the '40s and '50s, Hollywood released lots of movies about WWII events and personalities, and such movies continue to be made though less often, such as "Patton" and "Saving Private Ryan." And popular history on TV continues to be obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis, which presumably reflects popular interest as well.
Last edited by John F on Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by lennygoran » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:48 am

[quote="John F" And popular history on TV continues to be obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis, which presumably reflects popular interest as well.[/quote]

I can sure attest to this-watching the History Channel, AHC and PBS Hitler constantly comes up-I have an episode on my DVR right now from PBS concerning Nazi Weapons--the show is in its second season.

http://video.pbs.org/program/nazi-mega-weapons/ Regards, Len

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by arepo » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:29 pm

Two very powerful books about musicians during the reign of the Nazis are a must read for anyone interested in learning the true facts about those times.

1.Forbidden Music/the Jewish Composers banned by the Nazis.

Author, Michael Haas ..Yale University Press

2. the Twisted Muse/ Musicians and their music in the Third Reich.

Author, Michael H.Kater..Oxford University Press

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Modernistfan » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:07 pm

Sorry, Nadia Boulanger was not Jewish at all. She was an observant and devout Catholic. Moreover, there is strong evidence that she was, at least on a personal level, anti-Semitic, even though she had a number of Jewish students, most notably Aaron Copland. Additionally, according to a book by Léonie Rosenstiel entitled "Nadia Boulanger: A Life in Music" (published by W.W. Norton & Co. and available on Amazon, she had been a supporter of the definitely anti-Semitic, quasi-fascist, royalist, and reactionary Catholic "Action Française" movement in France in the 1930's. According to that book, she believed that Jews had little talent, as a group, for creative endeavor (pace Copland!) even though they had ability as teachers or performers of music. Moreover, according to that book, she believed that Jews were "members of another race," and tried to avoid having "too many" in her classes at any one time. Additionally, she believed in the old and now repudiated Catholic doctrine that each individual Jew was morally responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus, a not uncommon view among conservative Catholics in France of that period. Despite that, when she did take Jewish students, she did not reveal these negative feelings.

Darius Milhaud, of course, was Jewish, from an old Jewish family from Provence who could trace his roots in that part of southern France back to the 1400's. He wrote quite a number of works on Jewish themes, but also wrote a work, "Pacem in Terris," based on the encyclical of Pope John XXIII.

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by piston » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:57 pm

The Monmartre cemetery website, referred to below, places the Boulanger sisters' resting place in a Jewish section of that cemetery and further states that they were "Jewish on their mother's side."
Dans le cimetière banal de Montmartre
Sépulture de Bernheim le Jeune
Sépulture de Jacques Offenbach
Sépulture de Lili et Nadia Boulanger, d’origine juive par leur mère
Sépulture de Henrich Heine.
http://www.judaicultures.info/IMG/pdf/M ... orique.pdf

I know that their mother, Raissa Mychetsky, was also a distant descendant of a 13th-century Russian noble, but that "Russian" identity does not mean that she couldn't possibly be Jewish.

Raissa married 60-year old Frenchman Ernest Boulanger when she was 19 years of age. Ernest died when Nadia was 13 or 14 years old. I think it's reasonable to suppose that the Russian Jewish mother had more lasting influence on her daughters than the French father.

But since Nadia, early in life, had to work and care for her eccentric mother and young sister, it is also conceivable that she completely dissociated herself from her mother's ethnic identity.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Lance » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:52 pm

Learning much here from these posts, particularly about Nadia Boulanger. I have that book (since 1998) and I will try to find it and re-read it. It was my impression that Boulanger had many (famous) Jewish students, but of Americans, there may not have been many. I discovered this list of her American students. Names I thought were there were not.

http://www.nadiaboulanger.org/nb/amstudents.html
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Modernistfan » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:13 am

That is very interesting about the cemetery where the Boulangers are buried. Note, however, that both Offenbach and Heine had converted to Christianity. Also note that the tomb of "Bernheim Jeune" is marked with a cross and no Jewish symbols are visible. That suggests that that personage, whoever he was, had also converted, although the surname "Bernheim" is usually Jewish. Not knowing the details of the ancestry of the Boulanger family on her mother's side, I cannot draw a definitive conclusion as to what is going on here. It is certainly possible that she was distantly descended from Russian nobility but somewhere, an ancestor married a Jewish woman (traditionally, the daughter of a Jewish woman was considered Jewish even if the father was not, as Judaism practiced matrilineal descent) It is also possible that the story of "Russian nobility" was a complete and total fabrication and her mother was descended from a tailor in the ghetto of Minsk or Pinsk. Her mother's maiden name does not settle the issue at all--the bearers of many such surnames ending in "-sky" from Russia, Ukraine, or Belarus are Jewish, while many others are not.

Does anyone have more information that can clear this up? I have no doubt about Nadia Boulanger's political sympathies in the pre-World War II period, and they were not exactly philo-Semitic. On the other hand, the fact that she left France during World War II suggests that she might have been aware of her Jewish ancestry, because, under the Nazis, if her mother were actually Jewish, she would have been considered Jewish and thus in danger even if she had never been in a synagogue in her life and went faithfully to Mass every Sunday.

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Modernistfan » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:36 am

Actually, reviewing the list of American students of Ms. Boulanger, a surprisingly large number beside Copland were Jewish. I have no doubt about Marion Bauer, Herman Berlinski, Arthur Berger, Marc Blitzstein, Israel Citkowitz, Noah Creshevsky, David Diamond, Irving Fine, Neal Gittleman, Philip Glass, Jay Gottlieb, Leo Kraft, Leonard Lehrman, Harold Shapero, Gerald Shapiro, Elie Siegmeister, and Claudio Spies, and there may have been others. (Note that many of these composers studied with her relatively late, and it is not unreasonable that she moderated her views as a result of World War II.)

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by John F » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:12 am

Modernistfan wrote:That is very interesting about the cemetery where the Boulangers are buried. Note, however, that both Offenbach and Heine had converted to Christianity. Also note that the tomb of "Bernheim Jeune" is marked with a cross and no Jewish symbols are visible. That suggests that that personage, whoever he was, had also converted, although the surname "Bernheim" is usually Jewish.
Being Jewish is not exclusively about practicing Judaism. It's hereditary as well; those who, like Nadia Boulanger, have Jewish mothers are Jewish themselves by definition, according to themselves and their enemies. It was not for their religion that six million Jews were sent to the death camps by the Nazis, the music of Mendelssohn (a Christian) and others of his "race" was banned, and other converted Jews such as Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer had to flee Germany and Austria for their lives.

Whatever may be said about Nadia Boulanger's racial and/or religious attitudes during her lifetime, and I know nothing about this and care less, she surely wouldn't have been buried conspicuously as a Jew against her will. As a celebrity in the arts, she might be expected to have been buried in Père Lachaise, either in its Jewish section or not, rather than the Montmartre cemetery. There may be a story behind that.
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by piston » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:57 am

I heard an interesting symposium talk, only a few weeks ago, about the impact of eastern European Jewish immigration on France during the inter-war years, when that country, where they hoped to gain citizenship, first served as a preferred European destination to several hundred thousand Jewish refugees fleeing from the rise of fascism and militarism. Other than documenting how France before the Vichy government endeavored to repopulate abandoned farms with Jewish immigrants in the less fertile countryside of southwestern France, in an effort to closely "connect" them with the French soil and transform them into patriotic French peasants, the author convincingly argues that the influx of so many Jewish refugees negatively altered French perception of the "Jew" in general which, in turn, led the socially integrated and culturally recognized traditional French Jewish community to dissociate themselves from these newcomers.

Rather than being unusual in this specific context, Nadia Boulanger's alleged ethnic stereotypes could thus be representative of many well-established French Jews.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by lennygoran » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:49 am

I wonder if anyone mentioned this book which seems to be available on/line-the little clip when I googled said:
"it reinforced Nadia's belief that there was an aristocracy of ability, and that ... Ironically, Action franchise was also deeply and openly anti-Semitic."

This took me to this site:
https://books.google.com/books?id=no59t ... ic&f=false

Pg 198 seems to indicate a rather anti semitic attitude, a strict Catholicism and blaming the Jews for Christ's death. Regards, Len

PS-I see Modernistfan mentioned the book earlier.

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by John F » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:14 am

Before the Third Reich, France was the most notoriously antisemitic nation in Europe, with the Dreyfus affair only the most conspicuous sign of it. Was this taint washed out of French culture in just 40 years? Evidently not, from the material lennygoran has unearthed about Action Française, though in fact attitudes we recognize as antisemitic were common elsewhere, including in the U.K. and America. Since Boulanger's alleged antisemitic attitudes did not prevent her from accepting and teaching many Jewish students, and since she did nobody any actual harm and left France before its conquest by the most antisemitic nation in modern history, how much does this really matter?
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by piston » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:19 pm

I feel the need to clarify, especially for Modernistfan, that there is evidence, even a primary source, that Nadia Boulanger did express antisemitic views. It's from one of her students, Louise Talma (one of her "summer students" between 1926 and 1939), who was romantically drawn to Nadia and wrote numerous letters to her teacher, partly in an attempt to become physically involved with her (but Nadia insisted on being viewed as her "Godmother"). Apparently, this correspondence ends in 1941 and the last letter includes an explicit reference to Boulanger's antisemitic comments.

But, as John F. wrote, her words did not translate into antisemitic action with regard to admitting, guiding, and encouraging many Jewish students in her class.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by bigshot » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:28 am

because autism.

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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by John F » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:50 am

?
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Re: Hitler Exports His Jews to the USA

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:25 pm

dulcinea wrote:You all know how many talented Jews had to leave Europe because of Hitler; how many can you mention?
---------------

The heading of your post is most interesting as it coincides with the celebrations of the liberation
of Aushwitz 70 years ago.

The meaning of the word "export" does not impress me very much but I must admit many of the
"exported" Jews contributed greatly to Australia's culture. Musica Viva Australia, for instance,
was "born" in a house of such an "exported Jew". So have many students benefited from the
"exported" teachers at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music. Other beneficiary is the Hydro Electric
Scheme and many other enterprises.

I would also like to remind you that you pray to a Jew every single day. A Jew who had no idea
that he would become the object of worship as he was born a Jew and died a Jew.
So whatever you feel as far as "exported Jews" are concerned, think of HIM in your prayers.

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