The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Your 'hot spot' for all classical music subjects. Non-classical music subjects are to be posted in the Corner Pub.

Moderators: Lance, Corlyss_D

Post Reply
jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26080
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:05 pm

I owe this to a high school Facebook acquaintance with whom I had absolutely nothing in common forty years ago. Who would ever have guessed that, like my father, he would become a military musician?


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:29 am

Wow, that was hilarious! BTW I've started watching a series on the History Channel about hitler which says he may have escaped from that bunker and gone to Argentina? Regards, Len

http://www.history.com/shows/hunting-hitler

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26080
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:44 am

lennygoran wrote:Wow, that was hilarious! BTW I've started watching a series on the History Channel about hitler which says he may have escaped from that bunker and gone to Argentina? Regards, Len

http://www.history.com/shows/hunting-hitler
You know as well as I do that the History Channel can be the very embodiment of Henry Ford's saying that history is bunk. (It can also be excellent when the producers choose it to be so.) Hitler undoubtedly killed himself in the bunker as all reliable accounts tell us.

I first learned about the movie Downfall from our late member Ralph Stein. The parodies came later. Here is a correctly subtitled version of the scene.


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:10 am

jbuck919 wrote:
You know as well as I do that the History Channel can be the very embodiment of Henry Ford's saying that history is bunk. (It can also be excellent when the producers choose it to be so.) Hitler undoubtedly killed himself in the bunker as all reliable accounts tell us.
Well I'll watch what they have to say before I make a final judgement-some of what they have said is kind of persuasive or seemed that way to me. For example a well known scientist-I forgot his name but he's supposed to be an expert--is the only person who got to view the cranium the Russians took from the bunker--this was fairly recently---he said through DNA evidence that cranium was a woman's of about 30-that fits Eva Braun-not Hitler-Eva allegedly took poison to die but the scientist said there was a gunshot wound in the cranium. Regards, Len

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26080
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:21 am

lennygoran wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
You know as well as I do that the History Channel can be the very embodiment of Henry Ford's saying that history is bunk. (It can also be excellent when the producers choose it to be so.) Hitler undoubtedly killed himself in the bunker as all reliable accounts tell us.
Well I'll watch what they have to say before I make a final judgement-some of what they have said is kind of persuasive or seemed that way to me. For example a well known scientist-I forgot his name but he's supposed to be an expert--is the only person who got to view the cranium the Russians took from the bunker--this was fairly recently---he said through DNA evidence that cranium was a woman's of about 30-that fits Eva Braun-not Hitler-Eva allegedly took poison to die but the scientist said there was a gunshot wound in the cranium. Regards, Len
My dear friend, you are falling victim to a long-standing conspiracy theory. It is the easiest thing in the world for producers to make the impossible seem plausible. Some years ago, on the History Channel or some other allegedly educational outlet, I saw another rehash of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory that was intentionally lent an artificial dignity by the expedient of having the narrator speak with a British accent. (The only president whose assassination was beyond a doubt part of a conspiracy is Abraham Lincoln, but theorists don't waste their time on such prosaic reality.)

A handful of extreme Nazi criminals are known to have escaped and led incognito lives elsewhere, but there is no doubt that Hitler died by his own hand in the bunker.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:42 am

jbuck919 wrote:
A handful of extreme Nazi criminals are known to have escaped and led incognito lives elsewhere, but there is no doubt that Hitler died by his own hand in the bunker.
I'm not saying that isn't the case but how can you be so sure-btw I showed Sue those 2 clips-we couldn't stop laughing! Regards, Len

david johnson
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:04 am
Location: ark/mo

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by david johnson » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:51 am


John F
Posts: 18862
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by John F » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:57 am

lennygoran wrote:I've started watching a series on the History Channel about hitler which says he may have escaped from that bunker and gone to Argentina?
As a fictional starting point for a thriller, that might work. As history, however, it's bunk, as jbuck919 says. If the remains in the bunker were not examined by disinterested forensic scientists while they were still in place, there's no case. And they weren't.

Whatever it was that your unnamed "expert" examined, it can't have been the remains of either Hitler or Eva Braun. "Records in the Soviet archives, obtained after the fall of the Soviet Union, state that the remains of Hitler, Braun, Joseph and Magda Goebbels, the six Goebbels children, General Hans Krebs, and Hitler's dogs were repeatedly buried and exhumed. On 4 April 1970, a Soviet KGB team used detailed burial charts to exhume five wooden boxes at the SMERSH facility in Magdeburg. The remains from the boxes were burned, crushed, and scattered into the Biederitz river, a tributary of the nearby Elbe. According to Kershaw the corpses of Braun and Hitler were fully burned when the Red Army found them, and only a lower jaw with dental work could be identified as Hitler's remains." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hit ... _and_death)
John Francis

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:18 am

John F wrote: As a fictional starting point for a thriller, that might work. As history, however, it's bunk
Thanks, I'm enjoying it for the thriller value-however I admit that when I googled a number of criticisms of the show appeared:
https://www.google.com/search?q=hunting ... 8&oe=utf-8

I've seen three episodes now and have taped episode 7 and 8-because we were traveling I didn't tape episodes 4-6 because of DVR space-I'll watch them when repeated or maybe on/line with the computer?

I read the first review on the googling and the reviewer bases it on only one episode which I don't think is fair:

"In more pragmatic terms, based on the opener, it’s simply hard to imagine how the producers can possibly wring another seven hours out of this hunt. Because while the teased moments will include a future episode that involves diving for evidence of a U-boat that could have ferried Nazis out of Germany, “Hunting Hitler” begins taking on water long before that."

http://variety.com/2015/tv/reviews/hunt ... 201632629/

IOW even if they don't prove their case and I don't know how it will conclude the first 3 episodes have been anything but dull--just the locations alone have fascinated me. And having just made our first trip to Berlin the tunnels for the Berlin U6 subway got to me! Regards, Len :)

John F
Posts: 18862
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by John F » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:37 am

Oh, a series like this could be reviewed even before the first episode because its premise is false. At least as regards Hitler himself. Of course quite a few Nazis did make it to South America, and some like Mengele died there. But everybody knows that and you can't "sell" a 7-episode series on common knowledge. (Or can you?)
John Francis

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:55 pm

John F wrote:Oh, a series like this could be reviewed even before the first episode because its premise is false. At least as regards Hitler himself. Of course quite a few Nazis did make it to South America, and some like Mengele died there. But everybody knows that and you can't "sell" a 7-episode series on common knowledge. (Or can you?)
Actually it's 8 parts! :lol:

I was drawn to it because a lot of material maybe wasn't common knowledge until 2014:

"The probe into whether Hitler may have in fact evaded capture in Berlin and been spirited away to South America was prompted by the declassification last year of more than 700 explosive FBI documents dating back to the end of the Second World War. These files, which feature numerous ‘sightings’ of the Nazi leader, reveal that the US authorities were sceptical about the official version of Hitler’s death. They call into question the received history, that as the Red Army marauded through the streets of the German capital in late April 1945, he shot himself in the Führerbunker and that his corpse was then burnt in the Reich Chancellery garden by his close followers. A secret memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover himself stated that, ‘American Army officials in Germany have not located Hitler's body nor is there any reliable source that will say definitely that Hitler is dead.’

http://www.historytoday.com/james-rampton/hunt-hitler

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26080
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:11 pm

Hitler deliberately ordered that his body destroyed by fire so that it would not become a Soviet trophy. In fact, he took his own life mainly because he had enough intellect left to imagine what the Russians would do with him if they found him alive. It is well known that the identity of his remains, such as they were, was confirmed from dental records. Federal files in the US also include extensive investigation into UFO sightings, which like the claims about Hitler's survival are all spurious. Against these frankly ridiculous speculations one must weigh, among other things, the fact that there have been many US presidents since then who had absolute command over classified information. They had no motivation to keep something so momentous secret all these years.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:34 pm

jbuck919 wrote: It is well known that the identity of his remains, such as they were, was confirmed from dental records.
Thanks, the show hasn't mentioned this about the dental records-I admit I was unaware of this-so maybe they're not telling the whole tooth! Regards, Len :lol:

"The whole tooth: Prof Michel Perrier with some of the photographic evidence used to confirm that remains found in 1945 were Hitler’s The study of film footage of Hitler, enhanced by a computer, has confirmed that remains found by the Russians in 1945 were his, helping to end half a century of speculation about his fate and validating an identification technique of increasing value to forensic scientists.

A paper was presented yesterday at an international conference in London by Prof Michel Perrier, 52, of the University of Lausanne, and will be published in the Journal of Forensic Science. It links newsreel footage with X-rays of Hitler’s skull, jaw remains found in the bunker beneath the Reich Chancellery garden and his dental records."

http://justice4germans.com/2013/06/17/d ... tic-tales/

John F
Posts: 18862
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by John F » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:29 pm

lennygoran wrote:"The probe into whether Hitler may have in fact evaded capture in Berlin and been spirited away to South America was prompted by the declassification last year of more than 700 explosive FBI documents dating back to the end of the Second World War. These files, which feature numerous ‘sightings’ of the Nazi leader, reveal that the US authorities were sceptical about the official version of Hitler’s death. They call into question the received history, that as the Red Army marauded through the streets of the German capital in late April 1945, he shot himself in the Führerbunker and that his corpse was then burnt in the Reich Chancellery garden by his close followers. A secret memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover himself stated that, ‘American Army officials in Germany have not located Hitler's body nor is there any reliable source that will say definitely that Hitler is dead.’
So what? All this stuff has no bearing on the facts, only on American suspicions and guesswork during a notoriously paranoid period in our history, especially where Soviet Russia was concerned; fear of Communist conspiracies was in the air. If Eisenhower hadn't decided to allow the Soviet army to take Berlin, it would have been different. But this question has long since been definitively answered, and it's pointless to keep asking it.

One might make a one-hour documentary on how Americans, including those in high places, have some kind of compulsion to invent conspiracy theories even in the total absence of any supporting evidence. But that wouldn't sell on the History Channel.
John Francis

barney
Posts: 2661
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by barney » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:25 am

jbuck919 wrote:
lennygoran wrote:Wow, that was hilarious! BTW I've started watching a series on the History Channel about hitler which says he may have escaped from that bunker and gone to Argentina? Regards, Len

http://www.history.com/shows/hunting-hitler
You know as well as I do that the History Channel can be the very embodiment of Henry Ford's saying that history is bunk. (It can also be excellent when the producers choose it to be so.) Hitler undoubtedly killed himself in the bunker as all reliable accounts tell us.

I first learned about the movie Downfall from our late member Ralph Stein. The parodies came later. Here is a correctly subtitled version of the scene.

Thank you so much for that. I have seen so many parodies, many of them really unfunny, and have often wondered what the real dialogue was. My German is almost non-existent but of course I recognise words like Stalin and Jodl.

barney
Posts: 2661
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by barney » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:28 am

John F wrote:
lennygoran wrote:"The probe into whether Hitler may have in fact evaded capture in Berlin and been spirited away to South America was prompted by the declassification last year of more than 700 explosive FBI documents dating back to the end of the Second World War. These files, which feature numerous ‘sightings’ of the Nazi leader, reveal that the US authorities were sceptical about the official version of Hitler’s death. They call into question the received history, that as the Red Army marauded through the streets of the German capital in late April 1945, he shot himself in the Führerbunker and that his corpse was then burnt in the Reich Chancellery garden by his close followers. A secret memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover himself stated that, ‘American Army officials in Germany have not located Hitler's body nor is there any reliable source that will say definitely that Hitler is dead.’
So what? All this stuff has no bearing on the facts, only on American suspicions and guesswork during a notoriously paranoid period in our history, especially where Soviet Russia was concerned; fear of Communist conspiracies was in the air. If Eisenhower hadn't decided to allow the Soviet army to take Berlin, it would have been different. But this question has long since been definitively answered, and it's pointless to keep asking it.

One might make a one-hour documentary on how Americans, including those in high places, have some kind of compulsion to invent conspiracy theories even in the total absence of any supporting evidence. But that wouldn't sell on the History Channel.
Have we had one on the History Channel yet about how Osama is alive and well, and living on the Falkland Islands? Everyone knows that's true, even though I just invented it.

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:16 am

John F wrote:
lennygoran wrote: One might make a one-hour documentary on how Americans, including those in high places, have some kind of compulsion to invent conspiracy theories even in the total absence of any supporting evidence. But that wouldn't sell on the History Channel.
I'd phrase it differently-a show that discussed early world confusion and theories on Hitler and discussing the latest info like the FBI release are imo useful-also showing the locations from the FBI material-that too is useful and imteresting imo. OTOH this business about the dental proof-if the show has nothing to say about that I'll be quite disappointed--for me that will be a serious flaw. I may have to not wait for shows 4,5 and 6 to air and go right to 7 and 8 where I assume they will offer their conclusions? Regards, Len

John F
Posts: 18862
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by John F » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:02 pm

lennygoran wrote:
John F wrote:One might make a one-hour documentary on how Americans, including those in high places, have some kind of compulsion to invent conspiracy theories even in the total absence of any supporting evidence. But that wouldn't sell on the History Channel.
I'd phrase it differently-a show that discussed early world confusion and theories on Hitler and discussing the latest info like the FBI release are imo useful-also showing the locations from the FBI material-that too is useful and imteresting imo.
I don't see how that kind of show could be either useful or interesting. How could it possibly be useful? As for interest, apart from the name "Hitler" in the title, where's the interest in American confusion and mistaken theories from 70 years ago?

The FBI's charter does not permit it to conduct investigations outside the United States, so anything the files might contain about Hitler has to be hearsay. I've found these files online and indeed that is so. See for yourself:

https://vault.fbi.gov/adolf-hitler/adol ... of-04/view

They are heavily redacted, but as far as I can make out, the whole story depends on what a Los Angeles Examiner reporter was told in September 1945 by somebody claiming to be an Argentinian emigré or exile, apparently using a false name. This guy offered to tell his tale to "a high government official who would guarantee him immunity from being sent back to Argentina." Why he feared extradition is not said. Nobody from the FBI interviewed this person, who seems to have disappeared after telling his tale to the reporter.

Also in the files are letters claiming that Hitler and Braun were in Switzerland and lots of other places, even in a monastery in Tibet. Now I ask you. The last dated item in the file is a memorandum to the FBI in 1949 saying "This office was directed to interview [redacted] concerning his report that he believed ADOLF HITLER was in Saint Louis." Reporting the interview, "[redacted] has no other reason for thinking [redacted] is ADOLF HITLER than that [redacted] is German, speaks with a pronounced German accent, and refused to tell [redacted] his life's history." The FBI seems then to have finally lost interest in Hitler spottings and closed the file.

So much for those 750 pages of "newly declassified FBI files." Even if it comes from the FBI, garbage is still garbage, and 66-year-old garbage at that.
John Francis

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:21 pm

John F wrote: See for yourself:

https://vault.fbi.gov/adolf-hitler/adol ... of-04/view

So much for those 750 pages of "newly declassified FBI files." Even if it comes from the FBI, garbage is still garbage, and 66-year-old garbage at that.
Thanks, these files look like what the FBI released in 2014? I don't know why you call that garbage-could you explain? Anyway I now see I can download program 4 and 5 so I'll continue watching them in order after I DVR them on Dec 29. I sure hope there's some comment on the dental records-that seems crucial? Regards, Len

THEHORN
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:57 am

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by THEHORN » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:34 pm

The History channel documentaries are full of extremely dubious stories , but they're always very entertaining despite this . You don't have to take them seriously to enjoy them .

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:38 pm

THEHORN wrote:The History channel documentaries are full of extremely dubious stories , but they're always very entertaining despite this . You don't have to take them seriously to enjoy them .
Bob yes, I'm finding the show very entertaining--also because I was not familiar with all this stuff about Hitler possibly escaping to Argentina the show has been informative even if in the end the conclusions don't hold up. Regards, Len

John F
Posts: 18862
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by John F » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:54 am

lennygoran wrote:I don't know why you call that garbage-could you explain?
My God, Lenny, do you really need it explained why these hundreds of pages of solemn reports of dumb Hitler sightings are "garbage"? Countless hours, countless $$$ were wasted in 4 years of futile pursuit of a dead man. And now, 70 years later, many hours and $$$ have been wasted producing a pseudo-documentary of a fairy tale about the dead man's posthumous escape to Argentina, or Saint Louis, or Shangri La. With this kind of nonsense posing as history, no wonder so many our compatriots are ignorant of real history and taken in by unfounded conspiracy theories. Sure, watch it if you enjoy it, but as fiction, another "Boys from Brazil," under false pretenses.
John Francis

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:55 am

John F wrote: Countless hours, countless $$$ were wasted in 4 years of futile pursuit of a dead man. And now, 70 years later, many hours and $$$ have been wasted producing a pseudo-documentary of a fairy tale about the dead man's posthumous escape to Argentina, or Saint Louis, or Shangri La.
I think you're being way too harsh on the show-to each his own. Regards, Len

John F
Posts: 18862
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by John F » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:24 pm

Any show which pretends to be history but actually gives you speculation so baseless as to amount to fiction, can't be condemned too harshly. It pollutes the mind as sewage pollutes the water and smog pollutes the air.
John Francis

lennygoran
Posts: 12862
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The ultimate "Downfall" take-off

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:34 am

jbuck919 wrote: It is well known that the identity of his remains, such as they were, was confirmed from dental records.
A follow up-while waiting for the repeats of episode 4,5 and 6 to be shown on Dec 29 so I can see them in oreder I found this info-fascinating for me anyway. I'm sure hoping this show at some point deals with the dental records! Regards, Len

"During the spring of 1945, Elena Kagan was a 25-year-old war widow working as a German translator with the Soviet Red Army. Born to a well-off family of Moscow Jews, she had been a literature student and young mother when the war broke out. Her husband, an intellectual writer, was killed early in the conflict, and Kagan says she enlisted with the army as a way to feed her daughter. Her knowledge of German proved essential for interrogating prisoners, but her most memorable task began on April 29, 1945, when she was assigned to a team of three charged with finding Hitler, dead or alive. Her memoir of her war days, first published as "Berlin Notes" in a Soviet literary magazine in 1965, provided the world with the first details about how Hitler's body had been found and identified. A fuller version of her memoir went on to appear in more than ten languages, but has never been published in English, aside from selections in obscure journals and anthologies.

In her writings, Kagan--who later changed her name to Rzhevskaya in honor of the city of Rzhev, where she first experienced the full extent of the war--describes her compassion for the captured German soldiers, many barely adults, their bloodshot eyes wild with terror, and for the German women who were treated as war booty. She writes of orphans and cows wandering the bombed-out streets, soldiers getting drunk on the fine wines left by the fleeing Nazis, a Russian telegraphist trying on Eva Braun's long white evening dress, and, finally, what it was like to walk around carrying Hitler's teeth."

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ ... lers-teeth

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 17 guests