Mozart's Horn Concertos

[lennygoran]

I'm listening to Mozart's horn concerto 3 right now-didn't realize he had done 4 of these-so is one considered his absolute best? Also wiki says:

"The Horn Concertos by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart were written for his friend Joseph Leutgeb whom he had known since childhood. Leutgeb was a skilled player, as the works are very difficult to perform on the natural horn of the period, requiring lip trills, much hand-stopping, and rapid tonguing"

Are they still very difficult to perform-must a natural horn be used? Regards, Len

[John F]

The greatest of many fine recordings of the Mozart concertos are by Dennis Brain playing a valved horn. I like them all but especially #2 and 3. The 4th concerto is actually an earlier piece that Mozart left unfinished; it was completed after his death by Franz Xaver Süssmayr, who also completed the Requiem, and in recent years has been re-completed rather better by Robert Levin.

Michael Flanders (of Flanders and Swann, "At the Drop of a Hat") fitted words to the somewhat abridged finale of #4 about a missing horn, calling the song "Ill Wind."



And as written:

[THEHORN]

As a former horn player , I used to practice them all the time even though I never got a c chance to play any of them in public with an orchestra . They're not easy, but there are many other works for the horn which are far more difficult , such as the Weber concertino, which calls for the soloist to play chords ! in the cadenza by a technique of making overtones audible., the Schumann Konzertstuck for 4 horns & orchestra , which has an insanely high first horn part and which is the musical equivalent of walking tightrope without a net over hungry lions and a pool of sharks , the second Richard Strauss concerto ,
which requires a enormous amount of lip flexibility with its rapid-fire runs for example.
If you want to hear an excellent period instrument performance on a natural horn, you can't do better than the one with Lowell Greer and the Philharmonia Baroque orchestra & Nicholas McGegean conducting .
Greer is also an accomplished horn maker and made his own instrument which he plays here .
Other outstanding horn players who have recorded the Mozart concertos include Barry Tuckwell ( several different recordings ), Dale Clevenger, Peter Damm, David Jolley , Alan Civil, William Purvis ( with whom I
studied ) and many others .

[THEHORN]

As a former horn player , I used to practice them all the time even though I never got a c chance to play any of them in public with an orchestra . They're not easy, but there are many other works for the horn which are far more difficult , such as the Weber concertino, which calls for the soloist to play chords ! in the cadenza by a technique of making overtones audible., the Schumann Konzertstuck for 4 horns & orchestra , which has an insanely high first horn part and which is the musical equivalent of walking tightrope without a net over hungry lions and a pool of sharks , the second Richard Strauss concerto ,
which requires a enormous amount of lip flexibility with its rapid-fire runs for example.
If you want to hear an excellent period instrument performance on a natural horn, you can't do better than the one with Lowell Greer and the Philharmonia Baroque orchestra & Nicholas McGegean conducting .
Greer is also an accomplished horn maker and made his own instrument which he plays here .
Other outstanding horn players who have recorded the Mozart concertos include Barry Tuckwell ( several different recordings ), Dale Clevenger, Peter Damm, David Jolley , Alan Civil, William Purvis ( with whom I
studied ) and many others .

[Heck148]

such as the Weber concertino, which calls for the soloist to play chords ! in the cadenza by a technique of making overtones audible.,

We played this a few years back - Eric Ruske was soloist - in rehearsal, he got the chord nicely - play one note, sing another, and have the third note "sound in"....did not come off so well in either concert - temperature in hall was higher, probably some tension, whatever...
Years ago - did a gig with Paul Winter Consort - they had a horn player who played a whole Bach Chorale passage on horn [triads]..that was very cool!!

Other outstanding horn players who have recorded the Mozart concertos include Barry Tuckwell ( several different recordings ), Dale Clevenger, Peter Damm, David Jolley , Alan Civil, William Purvis

I 2nd the nominations of Tuckwell, Clevenger, Jolley and Purvis [latter 2 are/were hornists with Orpheus Chamber Orchestra...

[lennygoran]

The greatest of many fine recordings of the Mozart concertos are by Dennis Brain playing a valved horn. I like them all but especially #2 and 3.

Thanks I found this site which said:

Top Mozart Concertos

By Aaron Green
Classical Music Expert

1. Flute Concerto No. 2 In D Major – K. 314 downloaded
Buy from Amazon

2. Piano Concerto No. 24 in C minor – K. 491

3. Piano Concerto No. 9 in E flat Major – K. 271

4. Piano Concerto No. 17 in G Major – K. 453

5. Horn Concerto No. 3 In E Flat Major – K. 447 downloaded

6. Piano Concerto No. 20 in D minor – K. 466

7. Concerto for Flute and Harp in C Major - K. 299 downloaded

8. Clarinet Concerto in A Major – K. 622 downloaded

9. Violin Concerto No. 4 in D Major – K. 218

10. Piano Concerto No. 27 in B flat Major – K. 595

Relatedhttp://classicalmusic.about.com/od/classicalperiod/tp/Top-10-Mozart-Recordings.htm

Then I found this site which says:
Horn Concerto No. 4 in E flat

Yep, it's that one with the bouncy-sounding finale. While the final movement of this horn concerto might get all the attention, there's plenty more to explore in the first two movements as well. The first is a delicate series of melodies well worth exploring, while the second is a classic Mozart slow movement - tender, perfectly paced and hiding a touch of melancholy.

http://www.classicfm.com/composers/moza ... ere-start/

[lennygoran]

As a former horn player , I used to practice them all the time even though I never got a c chance to play any of them in public with an orchestra . They're not easy, but there are many other works for the horn which are far more difficult

Bob thanks for all this info-I'll be working on getting to alot of these during the winter season. Regards, Len

[John F]

I found this site which said:

Top Mozart Concertos

By Aaron Green
Classical Music Expert

Aaron Green a "classical music expert"? His list belies that - it's very strange, with Mozart's flute concerto #2 of all pieces at the very top. That's far from Mozart's greatest concerto; indeed, he didn't even write it for flute but originally for oboe, then arranged it for flute for the money. Still, all the pieces on the list are certainly worthwhile, as indeed is just about any concerto by Mozart.

[Lance]

Tops in the four horn concertos for me is first, Dennis Brain and any of Barry Tuckwell's. Fortunately, there are many outstanding recordings of these works.

[John F]

As a former horn player , I used to practice them all the time even though I never got a c chance to play any of them in public with an orchestra . They're not easy, but there are many other works for the horn which are far more difficult

Bob thanks for all this info-I'll be working on getting to alot of these during the winter season. Regards, Len

By the way, on the subject of horn concertos, Richard Strauss wrote two beauties, one at the beginning of his career and the other at the end. Again, the recordings to have are by Dennis Brain. Just a sample, the finale of #2.

[lennygoran]

Tops in the four horn concertos for me is first, Dennis Brain and any of Barry Tuckwell's. Fortunately, there are many outstanding recordings of these works.

Lance thanks-I was going to skip the first but I'll give it a shot! I found the wiki article on it interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_Conc ... 1_(Mozart)

Regards, Len

[lennygoran]

By the way, on the subject of horn concertos, Richard Strauss wrote two beauties, one at the beginning of his career and the other at the end. Again, the recordings to have are by Dennis Brain. Just a sample, the finale of #2.

Thanks, didn't know about them-fortunately every thing is available on youtube! Regards, Len

[david johnson]

Dennis Brain is the recoding I have, but there are many other fine ones.

[lennygoran]

Dennis Brain is the recoding I have, but there are many other fine ones.

I've been listening to these works-most new to me-what a treasure-also great music to listen to while working in the kitchen-what a find the Strauss concertos are! Regards, Len

[John F]

The French horn was Strauss's favorite instrument - you can tell, can't you? His father was a horn virtuoso and the first horn concerto was written for and premiered by him. The second was composed in 1942 in the depths of World War II, the unhappiest period of Strauss's life, but you'd never know that to listen to it.

Strauss also composed a fine oboe concerto at the suggestion of an American soldier in the occupying forces who knocked on his door. He was John de Lancie, then the #2 oboist in the Philadelphia Orchestra and later its principal oboe. Strauss gave him the rights for the American premiere and other performances in the U.S. even before the concerto was published, but the orchestra's principal oboe, the great Marcel Tabuteau, pulled rank on him and played the premiere instead. Ah, the politics of classical music.

[lennygoran]

Strauss also composed a fine oboe concerto at the suggestion of an American soldier in the occupying forces who knocked on his door.

Thanks, over 25 minutes-I'm listening and downloading it right now! Regards, Len

[John F]

There's a reason why some of us keep returning to Dennis Brain's recordings of the solo horn repertoire, 60 years after his early death. It's not just that he could play fistfulls of notes accurately and seemingly effortlessly; nowadays even conservatory students are said to have that kind of facility. It's the control with which he played them, as if on a violin - legato and staccato, louder or softer, brighter or more subdued in tone - and the subtle imagination of his phrasing which this control made possible. In the Mozart and Strauss concertos, in Britten's Serenade for tenor, horn and strings which was written for him and indeed at his request, and everything else he played, he made his horn not just caress or tingle our ears but seem to speak to us.

An example of what I'm talking about is the finale of Mozart's concerto #2 as recorded in the 1940s. He was then playing a French narrow-bore instrument as his father Aubrey Brain did, and as I understand it, this is harder to play but is more responsive to players who master it. Later he switched to a German wide-bore instrument, said to be more reliable but less special. Now and then, Brain inflects a phrase as if asking a question - which, at the end of this movement, he does twice and immediately answers (2:42 and following). The question and answer are in the music, but Brain "speaks" them:



If there's any other horn player before or since who had both the technique and the imagination to achieve this, I haven't heard him (or her nowadays), and would like to know who it is. Meanwhile, thanks to EMI's many recordings, we still have Dennis Brain.

[mikealdren]

Not only was he the preeminent horn player but Boyd Neel is often quoted as saying that Brain was the finest Mozartian on any instrument and listening to his recordings, you can see why he thought so.

[John F]

Brain's legacy is not just his solo recordings. He was principal horn of the Philharmonia Orchestra - solo concerts for a horn player, even a Dennis Brain, aren't that frequent, and he had to earn a living - and he can be heard in many of its EMI recordings until his death in 1957. For example, he plays the horn obbligato in Fiordiligi's aria in "Così fan tutte." At the same time he was also principal horn in Sir Thomas Beecham's Royal Philharmonic recordings and many of its concerts until 1954. Some of Brain's subtle phrasings remind me of Beecham's interpretive style, and I wonder if Brain didn't absorb them up from him.

He plays the organ in Karajan's Philharmonia recording of the intermezzo from "Cavalleria Rusticana" and in the Hoffnung Music Festival recording, in which he also plays the hosepipe.

[barney]

I too second Brain and Tuckwell. Barry Tuckwell, who is still hale and hearty and living in rural Victoria, is something of a friend and earlier this year I attended his 85th birthday dinner. Like Brain, Tuckwell is a genius, and was principal horn of the LSO in his early 20s.
That list by Alan Green is really bizarre.
It might make an interesting thread, ranking favourite Mozart concertos.
My top ones, and I couldn't place them relative to each other (at least not the piano concertos), are the piano concertos 9 (K271), 20 (K466) and 27 (K595), the clarinet concerto, violin concertos 3-5, concertante for violin and viola. The last 4 are not of the same depth, but they are so sunny and lovely, quintessential Mozart.

[mikealdren]

The Alan Green list is indeed a bit of a joke but most lists are. The problem is that he seems to feel that he has to include a flute concerto and a horn concerto and a violin concerto. You could easily argue that 9 of Mozart's top 10 are all piano concertos plus the clarinet concerto. After all the violin concertos for example are fairly early works.

A concerto in all but name, I would certainly argue for the sinfonia concertante (violin and viola)

[John F]

And then there's the double concerto for violin and viola, aka the sinfonia concertante, certainly among Mozart's great achievements in concerto form. Nobody knows what led him to write it - it just came out of thin air.

[Heck148]

Dennis Brain was a great artist for sure....his recordings of the Mozart, and the Strauss concerti are top-notch.
I also include Dale Clevenger and Barry Tuckwell in the same category - marvelous artists, who really explore the expressive and tonal possibilities of the horn. Their Mozart recordings are superior.

I have recordings of all 3 performing the Britten Serenade for Tenor, Horn and strings...each one is terrific, different, but great...wouldn't want to be without any of them.

on different instruments - I would certainly place Adolph "Bud" Herseth/trumpet, and Harold Gomberg, Ray Still/oboe as artists of the same stature.
there are so many fine musicians, and have been over the years - but some just rise above the pack - the aforementioned, IMO, reach the same level on their instruments as Heifetz, Oistrakh, Milstein, Rostropovich, etc do on theirs...

[John F]

Fine as those players were, I wouldn't put them in the same class as Dennis Brain, the nonpareil. And if we're naming exceptional wind players, America had no monopoly on them. Bud Herseth had his English equivalent in Maurice Murphy, first trumpet of the London Symphony for 30 years, and if there was a Dennis Brain of the trumpet, it was Timofei Dokshitser, who played with the same violin-like fluency and ease. As in this:



Comparable in longevity and stature would be Léon Goossens, the dean of British oboists, and Marcel Tabuteau, longtime principal of the Philadelphia Orchestra, whose sound and style became the norm for American players - Ralph and Harold Gomberg were among his many students at the Curtis Institute. The finest clarinetist I've heard is Jack Brymer, like Goossens and Dennis Brain a principal in Sir Thomas Beecham's orchestras; Beecham liked to boast, "I always get the players." He was self-taught and still an amateur when Beecham somehow discovered him and immediately hired him for the Royal Philharmonic. Not on that level but always a pleasure to hear was Stanley Drucker, in the New York Philharmonic for 60 years. And so it goes.

[Heck148]

Fine as those players were, I wouldn't put them in the same class as Dennis Brain, the nonpareil.

I rate them all in the same superior class. Tuckwell and Clevenger are amazing players...in some ways better than Brain, in others, maybe not as much. all top level....all great soloists, and great orchestra principals
Maurice Murphy was a fine trumpeter, really excellent - but not in Herseth's class. Maurice Andre is a great trumpet soloist, for sure - his and Herseth's renditions of Brandenburg#2 are marvelous...they make it sound easy, effortless, and it's anything but...

Comparable in longevity and stature would be Léon Goossens, the dean of British oboists, and Marcel Tabuteau, longtime principal of the Philadelphia Orchestra, whose sound and style became the norm for American players -

Both fine oboists...but I think some of Tabuteau's students surpassed him, which is quite a compliment to the teacher, IMO - Harold Gomberg - amazing sound, expressiveness...Marc Lifschey [Szell/Cleveland] was really great also. Tabuteau said of Ray Still - <<He's the only one who didn't study with me, but he's great anyway!!>>

always a pleasure to hear was Stanley Drucker, in the New York Philharmonic for 60 years. And so it goes.

Drucker, great player, remarkable career - supposedly, he recorded the Nielsen Concerto [a monster!!] on one take. Bernstein asked him if he wanted to re-record any passages....Drucker, putting his instrument in the case, <<No, I'm fine, but the orchestra has a few spots to clean up>>
Brymer was a fine player, but supposedly, he did not take much to modern/contemporary music - IIRC, he was in the BBC symphony, which tended to play more modern repertoire...Brymer opted out, switched to RoyalPO, and maybe Philharmonia?? Tough to keep track of the English musicians, esp London ones, they switch around even more than the New York ones do...

[John F]

I've heard Tuckwell's concerto recordings and one by Clevenger, and while they certainly had command of their instrument and made a fine sound, neither had Brain's subtlety and imagination as a soloist. Not to my ears, anyway. You say, "in some ways better than Brain" - how on earth can that be? Explain, please.

It's true that when Pierre Boulez became music director of the BBC Symphony, Jack Brymer didn't like the contemporary repertoire (he wasn't the only one!) and moved to the London Symphony. So what? It's as a soloist that Brymer was unequaled, not as an orchestral player in Boulez and Stockhausen.

You say that Maurice Murphy was "not in Herseth's class." Since I'd just said he was, I'd like to know why we disagree. Apart from the Haydn concerto and Bach Brandenburg 2, I haven't heard Herseth in any solo numbers. Also, "some of Tabuteau's students surpassed him" - who and how? Of course it's OK to disagree, but it would be good to know what the disagreement is based on.

[Heck148]

I've heard Tuckwell's concerto recordings and one by Clevenger, and while they certainly had command of their instrument and made a fine sound, neither had Brain's subtlety and imagination as a soloist.

very subjective, of course Tuckwell and Clevenger both exceed Brain in dynamic range, power of the sound, and upper range facility. Hey, I'm in no way disparaging Dennis Brain - a great artist, for sure. one example - in the Elegy Britten Tenor, Horn/strgs - along, legato melody for horn, wide skips, big range - the High C [concert F] starts pianissimo - crescendos descends to B natural...great effect. Dale Clevenger somehow enters on the high C imperceptibly...you cannot even hear the note begin...amazing..it just appears....unmatched IME. and it repeats..it's just one spot....

It's as a soloist that Brymer was unequaled, not as an orchestral player in Boulez and Stockhausen.

I'm not familiar with his solo work - just orchestra,, and chamber ensemble with his wind group...My favorite clarinetists are guys like Robt Marcellus, Clark Brody, Larry Combs, Robt. McGinnis..

You say that Maurice Murphy was "not in Herseth's class." Since I'd just said he was, I'd like to know why we disagree.

Again,I'm not disparaging Maurice Murphy, he was a great player. I heard him do Mahler #5 at Boston Symphony Hall - fine performance - Murphy sounded very good - the loud stuff was very fine, but the soft, quiet, tricky, "noodly" spots, not so good. That nasty little solo in Mvt II - [#13 Dover score] he clammed it pretty badly - lots of trumpeters do. He could have been having a bit of an off night.

I heard Herseth perform the same work with Solti in Carnegie Hall. Amazing performance - Herseth was overwhelming - the loud stuff was incredibly loud, with a big, beautiful ringing tone, no strain at all, pouring over the orchestra like the icing on a cake. - and the many soft, nasty little licks were done clean as a whistle, perfect phrasing, exquisite control over every aspect of playing, not only did he miss nothing, everything was done in such masterful, musical fashion.

Also, "some of Tabuteau's students surpassed him" - who and how?

I think Harold Gomberg and Marc Lifschey surpassed their master in performance. Better tone, bigger dynamic range, more expressive phrasing...but they learned from a master. Tabuteau was a great player, and perhaps an even greater teacher. His influence went far beyond the oboe world. Musicians of all instruments came to study with him, much like they did with the great Arnold Jacobs, long-time tuba-ist of Chicago SO.

Again, John - we're talking about great musicians here, everyone named so far, wonderful musicians...I don't mean to negate or downgrade anyone, we're talking about superlatives, and infinitesimal degrees of difference.

[barney]

Bumped into Barry at the opera on Friday and we had dinner (Gotterdammerung). I didn't mention this conversation because - as you all know - I am a consummate master of tact (!), but I know he admires Brain as an all-time great.
Sorry, just name-dropping!

[Lance]

How is Mr. Tuckwell? I saw him live in Ithaca, New York years ago. I love his work. I believe he is coming up on his 86th birthday in March 2017. Is he still active?

Bumped into Barry at the opera on Friday and we had dinner (Gotterdammerung). I didn't mention this conversation because - as you all know - I am a consummate master of tact (!), but I know he admires Brain as an all-time great.
Sorry, just name-dropping!

[THEHORN]

Lance, Barry Tuckwell has been retired for some years , as a brass player's tips can last only so long . But he has still been active as a teacher and conductor , among other things . He was conductor of the Maryland symphony orchestra, based in Hagerstown, Maryland , for some years , and has made several recordings with the LSO, such as Dvorak's New World symphony .
His book on the horn, part of the Yehudi Menuhin series of books on the various orchestral instruments , contains a wealth of fascinating information about the history and development of the horn over the centuries and lots of other interesting stories, and I recommend it highly .
I'm glad you're beginning to take more of an interest in the horn, Lenny . You won't regret it !

[John F]

Again, John - we're talking about great musicians here, everyone named so far, wonderful musicians...I don't mean to negate or downgrade anyone, we're talking about superlatives, and infinitesimal degrees of difference.

Thanks for giving all that detail, and you may be surprised that it more or less corresponds with my lay impression. It appears you are more impressed with the players' dynamic range, from very loud to very soft. For me, not so much. My favorite players are/were certainly not miniaturists, but it's what they did with dynamics, particularly expressive phrasing, that excites me. An example of what I'm talking about is this recording by Jack Brymer in Mozart's clarinet quintet, the finale - for me, his playing of the slow variation is just breathtaking.



I'm content to leave it at that.

[barney]

How is Mr. Tuckwell? I saw him live in Ithaca, New York years ago. I love his work. I believe he is coming up on his 86th birthday in March 2017. Is he still active?

Bumped into Barry at the opera on Friday and we had dinner (Gotterdammerung). I didn't mention this conversation because - as you all know - I am a consummate master of tact (!), but I know he admires Brain as an all-time great.
Sorry, just name-dropping!

No he no longer plays, but did indeed move to Maryland a few years ago to take the orchestra, then suddenly moved back to rural Victoria. I like him very much - he has sharp opinions and expresses them, and they are always interesting. At 85, why not! Also, he's played with almost everyone. He didn't like this production and said he was watching with his eyes shut but praised the horn playing - I've noticed he is always generous to horn players. His companion meanwhile loved every minute of the production. I had mixed feelings, though - in reviewing for the Age because Barry's nephew is overseas - I gve it f, 4.5, 4.5 and 4.5 stars. This was because of the magnificent singing and orchestral playing, which the production obstructed hardly at all. Not bad for a modern Ring!
I am happy to post the reviews, but I suspect that would be stretching the friendship!

[Heck148]

Again, John - we're talking about great musicians here, everyone named so far, wonderful musicians...I don't mean to negate or downgrade anyone, we're talking about superlatives, and infinitesimal degrees of difference.

Thanks for giving all that detail, and you may be surprised that it more or less corresponds with my lay impression. It appears you are more impressed with the players' dynamic range, from very loud to very soft.

dynamic range is important for sure, but I probably give as much or more weight to "tonal variety" - ie - using the different timbral qualities of the instrument to their fullest extent...all instruments are capable of a wide palette of tone colors, or qualities...Horn is one of the most flexible and varied....bassoon and trombone are also...
Among Horn players, two of my favorites in this regard are Phillip Farkas, long-time CSO principal, and Roland Berger, VPO principal - their many recordings show how fully they could explore the tonal possibilities of the horn - from the sweet, resonant smooth legato, to the bold, brassy, edgy quality...artists with a wide range of colors on their tonal palette.