MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

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dulcinea
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MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by dulcinea » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:00 pm

... that he was largely self taught as a composer. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
What about the elaborate complexity of his symphonies and his Cello Concerto? Even Beethoven needed to be taught his craft.
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jbuck919
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:08 pm

I know nothing of this. Do you have a link? Unlike some fine and famous chefs, there is no composer I know of who was self-taught. Perhaps the closest is our common favorite Haydn, who relied a great deal on Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum without having a living master to guide him through the fundamentals of counterpoint.

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John F
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by John F » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:29 pm

Like Mozart, I suppose Elgar got his basic musical education from his father. From Wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote: His father, William Henry Elgar (1821–1906), was raised in Dover and had been apprenticed to a London music publisher. In 1841 William moved to Worcester, where he worked as a piano tuner and set up a shop selling sheet music and musical instruments... William Elgar was a violinist of professional standard and held the post of organist of St. George's Roman Catholic Church, Worcester, from 1846 to 1885. At his instigation, masses by Cherubini and Hummel were first heard at the Three Choirs Festival by the orchestra in which he played the violin. All the Elgar children received a musical upbringing. By the age of eight, Elgar was taking piano and violin lessons, and his father, who tuned the pianos at many grand houses in Worcestershire, would sometimes take him along, giving him the chance to display his skill to important local figures.
And so on.
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dulcinea
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:55 am

So MUSIC CHOICE is making a big deal out of the fact that EE did not attend a conservatory ...
Why? Beethoven did not attend a conservatory, either.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

maestrob
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by maestrob » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:11 pm

Elgar was indeed self-taught, that is he learned at his parents' knees, so to speak. His genius was apparent from an early age, so why not? His music is so very original, I appreciate him even more knowing that he was "home-instructed."

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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:59 pm

maestrob wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:11 pm
Elgar was indeed self-taught, that is he learned at his parents' knees, so to speak. His genius was apparent from an early age, so why not? His music is so very original, I appreciate him even more knowing that he was "home-instructed."
In that sense, some of the very greatest composers were "self-taught." Though at his best Elgar is an admirable composer who produced a more than respectable body of work, he is not to be compared to Bach or Mozart, who also learned from their family members. In fact, I can think of no teacher of a great composer prior to Nadia Boulanger, no matter how effective he may have been when one considers the outcome in retrospect, whose name is more than a footnote in musical history. That seems to me to be true in the other great forms of Western art as well. This is not to be confused with influence from important predecessors, as opposed to direct instruction.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by Lance » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:26 pm

It took me some time to come to the music of Sir Edward Elgar, but recordings have helped enormously. He wrote a plethora of music, and if, indeed, he was primarily self-taught or influenced by his immediate family, it is not a bad way to go given what we have by which to judge his output. I have added substantially to my collection the music of Elgar. For those who want a good lot of it reasonably priced, I highly recommend EMI/Warner Classics "Elgar Collector's Edition" [03603, 30 CDs], which contains his "masterpieces," performed with among the best-known artists, including Boult, Barbirolli, Janet Baker, Vernon Handley, Robert Tear, and many others, 32 hours of music in all.
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jbuck919
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 pm

Lance wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:26 pm
It took me some time to come to the music of Sir Edward Elgar, but recordings have helped enormously. He wrote a plethora of music, and if, indeed, he was primarily self-taught or influenced by his immediate family, it is not a bad way to go given what we have by which to judge his output. I have added substantially to my collection the music of Elgar. For those who want a good lot of it reasonably priced, I highly recommend EMI/Warner Classics "Elgar Collector's Edition" [03603, 30 CDs], which contains his "masterpieces," performed with among the best-known artists, including Boult, Barbirolli, Janet Baker, Vernon Handley, Robert Tear, and many others, 32 hours of music in all.
Good heavens! Not a single German, French, or American performer/conductor in the lot, not to mention Toscanini. No shameless nationalistic self-promotion going on here. ;)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

barney
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by barney » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:13 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 pm
Lance wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:26 pm
It took me some time to come to the music of Sir Edward Elgar, but recordings have helped enormously. He wrote a plethora of music, and if, indeed, he was primarily self-taught or influenced by his immediate family, it is not a bad way to go given what we have by which to judge his output. I have added substantially to my collection the music of Elgar. For those who want a good lot of it reasonably priced, I highly recommend EMI/Warner Classics "Elgar Collector's Edition" [03603, 30 CDs], which contains his "masterpieces," performed with among the best-known artists, including Boult, Barbirolli, Janet Baker, Vernon Handley, Robert Tear, and many others, 32 hours of music in all.
Good heavens! Not a single German, French, or American performer/conductor in the lot, not to mention Toscanini. No shameless nationalistic self-promotion going on here. ;)
I haven't researched it, but I suspect the vast majority of Elgar recordings are by English forces, just as the majority of recordings of American composers are by American forces. It is perfectly natural, and there is no need to find a conspiracy there. I also suspect that this Warner set has drawn on the archives rather than making new recordings.

jbuck919
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:51 pm

barney wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:13 pm
jbuck919 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:14 pm
Lance wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:26 pm
It took me some time to come to the music of Sir Edward Elgar, but recordings have helped enormously. He wrote a plethora of music, and if, indeed, he was primarily self-taught or influenced by his immediate family, it is not a bad way to go given what we have by which to judge his output. I have added substantially to my collection the music of Elgar. For those who want a good lot of it reasonably priced, I highly recommend EMI/Warner Classics "Elgar Collector's Edition" [03603, 30 CDs], which contains his "masterpieces," performed with among the best-known artists, including Boult, Barbirolli, Janet Baker, Vernon Handley, Robert Tear, and many others, 32 hours of music in all.
Good heavens! Not a single German, French, or American performer/conductor in the lot, not to mention Toscanini. No shameless nationalistic self-promotion going on here. ;)
I haven't researched it, but I suspect the vast majority of Elgar recordings are by English forces, just as the majority of recordings of American composers are by American forces. It is perfectly natural, and there is no need to find a conspiracy there. I also suspect that this Warner set has drawn on the archives rather than making new recordings.
Oh, I'm not proposing a conspiracy or saying that this is not an expected phenomenon. I do wonder, however, why there are any non-Aussie recordings of Percy Grainger. ;)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

John F
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by John F » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:40 am

I'm working on a chronology of Toscanini's performances and the Enigma Variations were in his repertoire from before World War I. He also conducted the Introduction and Allegro, but no other Elgar as far as I know.
John Francis

jserraglio
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jserraglio » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:14 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:51 pm
Oh, I'm not proposing a conspiracy or saying that this is not an expected phenomenon. I do wonder, however, why there are any non-Aussie recordings of Percy Grainger. ;)
Stokowski, Fennell, Britten, Gardiner, Hickox and Hamelin thought highly of Grainger, with good reason.

jbuck919
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:02 am

John F wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:40 am
I'm working on a chronology of Toscanini's performances and the Enigma Variations were in his repertoire from before World War I. He also conducted the Introduction and Allegro, but no other Elgar as far as I know.
or

Delighted to hear it. Apropos of nothing, the Nimrod variation is a favorite in transcription for concert organists. There are several versions on YouTube, but none of them is up to snuff according to the standard set by Thomas Murray, so I am not posting one.

As for Grainger, I was of course just kidding Barney, but classical music is lousy with composers who are favored disproportionately in their own country or geographic milieu. Grainger wrote works for concert band, which is how I was introduced to him. They are probably not his best work (at least I hope not), but they are all that many Americans know of his output.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

maestrob
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by maestrob » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 pm

Barenboim has recorded Elgar's two great symphonies along with the cello concerto and other works with the Berlin Staatskapelle where he is music director, and the results are outstanding:

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THEHORN
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by THEHORN » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:24 pm

Dvorak is a greater composer than many give him credit for being . Outside England, his onlyreally well known works are the familiar Enigma variations, one or two of the "Pomp and Circumstances " marches, the cello concerto , and maybe one or two other works, but
many listeners are not familiar with his two great symphonies, the Oratorio "The Dream of Gerontius " , the "In the South " overture , "Falstaff " and other substantial works of his .
I've heard the EMI set mentioned by Lance, and while by no means everything on it is a towering masterpiece , as Elgar wrote his share of inconsequential fluff (no disgrace) , but if you get familiar with this set you should come to realize that Elgar is no small beer composer .

jbuck919
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Re: MUSIC CHOICE Says Of Elgar ...

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:02 pm

THEHORN wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:24 pm
Dvorak is a greater composer than many give him credit for being .
Now there's the Freudian typo of the year. :) (In fact, I rate Elgar and Dvorak about the same. A case could be made that one aspect of international fame as experienced by, say, Dvorak and Grieg, is chronological and the result of the Bayreuth Effect, i.e., they attended the opening performance at the Festspielhaus along with most of the important composers in Europe at the time, except for, you guessed it, Brahms.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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