Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

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lennygoran
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Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:59 am

Esa, what about at the opera house! Regards, Len :lol:

A Manifesto for a 21st-Century Concert. (Drinks Allowed.)

By Joshua Barone

June 6, 2018

“The concert experience has become predictable,” the composer and conductor Esa-Pekka Salonen said this week. “I’m not talking about artistic quality or content of the program, but the ritual itself. It’s quite predictable — and, visually, mostly dead boring, to be totally honest.”

Mr. Salonen, jet lagged after flying in from London and fresh from a rehearsal with the New York Philharmonic, was speaking at David Geffen Hall while preparing for “Foreign Bodies,” a one-night-only interdisciplinary extravaganza on Friday that marks the end of his three-year tenure as the orchestra’s composer in residence.

But the program isn’t only a showcase of Mr. Salonen’s work; he shares billing with the New York premiere of a violin concerto by Daniel Bjarnason, a video installation by Tal Rosner and choreography by Wayne McGregor. If anything, the evening is a manifesto for what Mr. Salonen thinks the 21st-century concert could — and should — be.

Oh, and drinks will be allowed in the hall — a rarity at Lincoln Center.

“I’m not trying to say that every concert has to have all kinds of bells and whistles,” he said over a Nespresso in one of Geffen Hall’s green rooms.

But orchestras, he added, must consider what audiences — especially young ones — want from a performance. “People are quite used to not only following narrative layers at the same time, but also expecting it,” he said. “There’s the news, then there’s the ticker. That’s totally normal.”

So in lieu of Mr. Salonen’s “Lachen Verlernt” and “Nyx” as strictly instrumental, they will be heard on Friday as the score to Mr. McGregor’s 2016 ballet “Obsidian Tear”; the music and dance, Mr. Salonen said, “inform each other, and it enriches the experience.”

It’s a glimpse at what might have been had he become the Philharmonic’s director, as many critics hoped he would. (He said he wasn’t interested in the job.) Still, Mr. Salonen has been a fixture in New York, with regular appearances at Geffen, the Metropolitan Opera and Carnegie Hall. His music is well represented by the Philharmonic, by way of the composer residency, and visiting orchestras.

Indeed, that’s why he didn’t want “Foreign Bodies” to be all about him.

“Pieces of mine are not news in New York City,” he said. “I thought, rather than just doing another concert, it would be nice to put things into a different kind of context. I also just wanted it to be a deeply entertaining event.”


Mr. Salonen is turning 60 this month but still looks perennially boyish, these days with a bit of scruff instead of a clean shave; he speaks slowly and intelligently, as if editing sentences in real time. As a conductor, he keeps a busy, though selective, calendar. (Coming projects include his first go at Wagner’s “Ring” cycle next year, along with a new production of Weill and Brecht’s “Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny,” directed by Ivo van Hove, at the Aix-en-Provence Festival in France next summer.)

He said there is much talent among today’s young composers, whom he has championed both in major halls and smaller spaces like National Sawdust in Brooklyn. And they don’t have to adhere to the strict definitions of new music that once bedeviled Mr. Salonen and his peers.

But such openness, he observed, means that fewer and fewer youngsters are interested in writing for symphonies, a development Mr. Salonen rues. “That would be an absolutely catastrophic thing for this culture,” he said, “if they had no interest in orchestras.”

It doesn’t help that writing for a big orchestra is, he said in typically metaphor-happy fashion, like being Wile E. Coyote in pursuit of the Road Runner. Because of tight rehearsal schedules, there is no time to revise new pieces or workshop them with the conductor and musicians. Instead, he said, “there should be an infrastructure that allows young composers to develop their orchestral repertoire over a season or two.”

As for himself, Mr. Salonen remains committed to symphonic music, but he has lofty ideas about where to take the art form next. He’s a bit of a tech fanatic — you might have even seen him in a series of Apple commercials, and he was a force behind an app made for the Philharmonia Orchestra, where he is principal conductor. He thinks 360-degree sound systems and virtual reality, which could put audiences in the center of the action and show what he calls “the near-mysterious ways” orchestras work, are the next frontier.

These new, largely inexpensive technologies, Mr. Salonen believes, could give way to “a neo-Wagnerian idea of a Gesamtkunstwerk. You can write a piece for a symphony orchestra, electronics, holograms, V.R. and 360-sound design, this kind of amalgam of highly trained live musicians mixing with state-of-the-art technology.”

Will Mr. Salonen be the first composer to try?

“Well,” he said with a laugh, “I wouldn’t mind.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/arts ... collection

John F
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by John F » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:14 am

Terrible idea. People will spill them, on themselves and the hall's floors and chairs, causing disturbances during the performance and additional cost for cleanup. The way to rebuild audiences for classical music is to make the performance itself irresistable through the choice of repertoire and artists, as Salonen himself did pretty well in Los Angeles, not to convert concert halls and opera houses into a kind of bar or café.
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:18 am

John F wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:14 am
The way to rebuild audiences for classical music is to make the performance itself irresistable through the choice of repertoire and artists . . . not to convert concert halls and opera houses into a kind of bar or café.
The two are hardly mutually exclusive. It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a concert-goer in possession of a good seat, must be in want of a Sex on the Beach.

As a youngster I was drawn into classical music by just such venues, conducted by the great Louis Lane. My only disappointment was the dry-mouthed refusal of the waiters to allow a teenager to pair Kaiser-Walzer with Kaiserspritzer.

Image
Last edited by jserraglio on Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

John F
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by John F » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:15 am

Louis Lane conducted the Cleveland Orchestra's pop concerts, so I suppose it was the repertoire, and maybe lower ticket prices, that drew the audiences (and you). And the lack of drinks in the hall didn't keep them away.
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jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:24 am

John F wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:15 am
the lack of drinks in the hall didn't keep them away.
There was no lack of food or drink in the hall. I recall vittles galore being provided at the tables pictured above.

The use of tables on the main floor of Public Auditorium back then, rather than the customary rows of seats, supports the notion that pursuing high art and human sustenance simultaneously is compatible.

Image
The Cleveland Public Auditorium as it appears today

Belle
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:14 pm

John F wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:14 am
Terrible idea. People will spill them, on themselves and the hall's floors and chairs, causing disturbances during the performance and additional cost for cleanup. The way to rebuild audiences for classical music is to make the performance itself irresistable through the choice of repertoire and artists, as Salonen himself did pretty well in Los Angeles, not to convert concert halls and opera houses into a kind of bar or café.
Agree. I will avoid these venues if this becomes standard practice elsewhere. Why do people feel they have to pander to young audiences? I just don't get that!! Like most of you, I never felt that I had to have distractions in order for me to concentrate and enjoy the program of music at hand. There is always the bar during the break if people feel they cannot maintain an attention span. What the hell is this world coming to? The concentration span of gnats.

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:49 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:14 pm

Why do people feel they have to pander to young audiences? . . . . What the hell is this world coming to? The concentration span of gnats.
I've noticed that indulging the young is a pleasant pastime for those not so young, not that it's easy to find youngsters at CM concerts these days, for which they can hardly be blamed, given the often wet-blanket atmosphere. And whatever nice things the world of the future has in store for us, the old might not be capable of enjoying, supposing they are still around to greet them. As for gnats, I agree, the little buggers can be a nuisance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_GJse-anfk

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Belle
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:08 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:49 am
Belle wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:14 pm

Why do people feel they have to pander to young audiences? . . . . What the hell is this world coming to? The concentration span of gnats.
The young are hard to find at CM concerts these days: I can hardly blame them, given their general stuffiness. And whatever the world's coming to, the old won't be around to greet it, not that they would enjoy it.
I love intellectual debates, reading challenging material and listening to serious music so I'm used to "stuffy". I enjoy it. And I think many young people do too. It's just that they don't need to be patronized into being able to buy a coffee during a concert in order to be able to appreciate it. In short, they know they don't want to be dumbed down - getting enough of that at school and university.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:33 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:08 am
they know they don't want to be dumbed down - getting enough of that at school and university.
Agreed, but they do like being indulged, and why not? On both sides of the age gap, it is one of the joys of being alive.
Don Corleone wrote:I have a sentimental weakness for my children and I spoil them, as you can see. They talk when they should listen.
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lennygoran
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by lennygoran » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:42 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:08 am
It's just that they don't need to be patronized into being able to buy a coffee during a concert in order to be able to appreciate it.
Belle at the HD Met opera performances we see at the Rockaway Mall in NJ the chairs are comfortable and most of the time the theater is not completely full-we arrive a half hour early with our small lunch and then just as the opera is getting started we're usually sitting there with our large cup of coffee-the seats have nice big coffee holders. Regards, Len [admitting it feels nice but also admitting at the Met itself with its tight seating it would be a bit of a problem] :lol:

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:45 am

lennygoran wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:42 am
admitting it feels nice but also admitting at the Met itself with its tight seating it would be a bit of a problem] :lol:
You would know better than I, but I read that there's plenty of room to spread out at the Met these days. You might be able to put your coffee cup on the armrest of the empty seat next to you (just joking, of course).

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 am

lennygoran wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:42 am
Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:08 am
It's just that they don't need to be patronized into being able to buy a coffee during a concert in order to be able to appreciate it.
Belle at the HD Met opera performances we see at the Rockaway Mall in NJ the chairs are comfortable and most of the time the theater is not completely full-we arrive a half hour early with our small lunch and then just as the opera is getting started we're usually sitting there with our large cup of coffee-the seats have nice big coffee holders. Regards, Len [admitting it feels nice but also admitting at the Met itself with its tight seating it would be a bit of a problem] :lol:
I'm sure you'd attend irrespective of whether or not drinks were available to take inside!! In Vienna if you want to eat and drink during a performance there's Oper Live am Platz - outside!!

In Vienna they have loads of younger people at concerts - all full houses. People in their 30s and 40s with partners, or often alone. I've seen them there with their children too - families of 2 or 3 of them or single children. Many of them know each other and you'll see friendly smiles and waves between groups.

In Vienna they are preparing the next generation of music-lovers and there's not an issue with food and drink; it wouldn't occur to them because there's an excellent bar and cafe for intermission (at all venues, not just Musikverein). I've never been to a concert there (and I've been to dozens) with anything more than a few empty seats.

And you get the death stare if you do, wear or say anything untoward. I noticed that in Leipzig too. This didn't worry me in the slightest. In fact, being on the same page with up to 2,000 people is one of the joys of life!! That's pampering, for me.

Horses for courses. (Giddey-up!)

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:04 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 am
And you get the death stare if you do, wear or say anything untoward.
I sure do know what that feels like in Severance Hall, the stares and comments usually being directed at what is regarded as my unsuitable attire. Of course, the glaring blue-hairs are only good for the Haydn on the first course of the feast; they vamoose before Webern is served up for the meal's second course.

What more can one expect of good old girls behaving badly? Some mares are not for all courses. (Whoa!)
Last edited by jserraglio on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:49 am, edited 4 times in total.

lennygoran
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by lennygoran » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:10 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:45 am
You would know better than I, but I read that there's plenty of room to spread out at the Met these days. You might be able to put your coffee cup on the armrest of the empty seat next to you (just joking, of course).
Where we sit it's pretty tight-otoh if you meant there's more space because of their attendance stats on a rare occasion we can put our coats down on an empty seat but it's very rare. Talk about seats and drinks we got a call yesterday from the Met about our create your own series for next season-they had made a mistake on the final bill because our Traviata happens to be a gala performance-they wanted permission to charge the price of the gala seats by $17 per ticket on our credit card-I gave them the nod and as a nice gesture from them the woman said she was sending us a voucher for free glasses of wine next time we're there. Regards, Len

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by lennygoran » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:28 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 am
I'm sure you'd attend irrespective of whether or not drinks were available to take inside!! ... it wouldn't occur to them because there's an excellent bar and cafe for intermission (at all venues, not just Musikverein). [/quote]

Belle on point one definitely go there for the operas-no drinks needed at all! As for the Met at intermissions we look down at the fancy dinners they are serving for those eating in their Grand Tier restaurant. Regards, Len

https://www.metopera.org/visit/food-and-drink/

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by John F » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:13 am

The Walter Reade Theater at Lincoln Center has big comfortable seats whose wide arms have cup holders. Classical concerts are given there from time to time, but I don't believe the concession stand sells popcorn and coke for them. For movies, yes.
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:22 am

John F wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:14 am
Terrible idea. People will spill them, on themselves and the hall's floors and chairs, causing disturbances during the performance and additional cost for cleanup. The way to rebuild audiences for classical music is to make the performance itself irresistable through the choice of repertoire and artists, as Salonen himself did pretty well in Los Angeles, not to convert concert halls and opera houses into a kind of bar or café.
I agree, and anyway that won't allow anything a lot of people would like to drink. ;)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:29 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:22 am
I agree, and anyway that won't allow anything a lot of people would like to drink. ;)
If alcohol is banned, cannabis-infused salted caramel popcorn may not be.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by maestrob » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:47 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:29 am
jbuck919 wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:22 am
I agree, and anyway that won't allow anything a lot of people would like to drink. ;)
If alcohol is banned, cannabis-infused salted caramel popcorn may not be.
8) :lol:

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:46 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:04 am
Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 am
And you get the death stare if you do, wear or say anything untoward.
I sure do know what that feels like in Severance Hall, the stares and comments usually being directed at what is regarded as my unsuitable attire. Of course, the glaring blue-hairs are only good for the Haydn on the first course of the feast; they vamoose before Webern is served up for the meal's second course.

What more can one expect of good old girls behaving badly? Some mares are not for all courses. (Whoa!)
Strange that I've never seen a "blue-hair" at the Musikverein. And I've looked for them!! I sat once next to a woman in her late 70s at a Riccardo Muti appearance and she knew all about Beethoven's tempi and Muti's relationship to them and spoke to me about this during the break. So much for stereotypes! And on my last visit to the Musikverein 3 years ago (the last Hanoncourt appearance there) I was waiting in the long line for the toilets and started a lively conversation with a woman at least a decade older who was vivacious and funny. That conversation continued as we were inside the toilets. A few of these friendly Viennese exchanged email addresses with me!!

I've shared a box with a circa 30 year old man at the Staatsoper who was immensely knowledgeable and intelligent and who came home on the same train as I did and chatted about music all the way. I had the feeling he was glad to share his views with a foreigner and share them period. I couldn't imagine that in his business (quantity surveying/engineering) there would have been many others with which he could do this. I've had the same experience in Sydney with young people and I've always put my conversations with them down to the fact that, as a retired teacher, I could relate to them very easily.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:55 pm

Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:46 pm
I've always put my conversations with them down to the fact that, as a retired teacher, I could relate to them very easily.
Being privileged to work with today's youth, I'll testify that in my daily contact with them I have picked up many good habits.

As for Severance Hall's bluehaired ladies being a stereotypical figment, the Cleveland Orchestra's own music director Franz Welser-Moest has remarked about the way bluehairs (he used that word) flit out of the concert hall home to their furnished souls whenever the music threatens to runs past their bedtime. Problem is, as the conductor related to a reporter in an unguarded moment, he still is obligated to dun those very same unmerry widows for money.

Welser-Moest's use of the derogatory term bluehair exposed him to comment on the RTA platform, not all of which was couched in approving tones.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:04 pm

No wonder this conductor has fallen foul of everybody in Vienna!! And, of course, he was criticized during his earlier tenure in Cleveland by a well known music critic in that city (name forgotten). I remember his name being bandied about at the time.

All I can tell you is that sexist and ageist comments about 'blue hair' are seldom heard in Vienna; I don't think I ever have, let alone seeing any. I expect it's all confused with the era of Strauss - not Richard. The Director of the Musikverein, regularly seen in his Balkon Loge seating with his confreres, was probably about 50 when I was last there and the wives would have been about that age too.

Nobody has used blue rinse in their hair since the 1960s, when 'permed' hair was last fashionable. The irony is that Franz Welser-Möst was probably referring more to his own background and "mentor" than anything else. Take a look at the second and third paragraphs here: I have to say his comments that you quote strongly remind me of the Hitchcock film "Shadow of a Doubt" after Uncle Charlie (Joseph Cotton) has murdered all those rich widows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Welser-M%C3%B6st

It's curious how myths continue though, isn't it. In this day and age single women of retirement age who have any money at all won't have a bar of most men because they don't have any themselves. We call it "nurse and purse" syndrome to describe what men are after during those late 'dating' years. And, of course, there are older women with money who also behave just as old men with money do - they take on younger partners. It's all risible as everybody pretends that money isn't the motive. Priceless. I remember Ricky Gervais making hilarious comments about this during the Golden Globes a few years ago when 24y/o Crystal Harris married Hugh Heffner!! :lol:
Last edited by Belle on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Belle wrote:The irony is that Franz Welser-Möst was probably referring more to his own background and "mentor" than anything elsw.
I agree that FWM is not exactly politically correct, which one might think would endear him to some rather than inspire them to launch a sexist and ageist ad hominem attack of their very own.
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by John F » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:35 pm

Welser-Möst was appointed music director of the Vienna State Opera in 2010 and left that post (i.e. he was not dismissed) after four years because of "irreconcilable differences of opinion" over artistic matters, presumably with artistic director Dominique Meyer. What those differences were hasn't been spelled out as far as I know; Welser-Möst has only said, "The differences of opinion . . . have not merely occurred overnight. We have attempted on many occasions to find a resolution." But I certainly haven't heard that Welser-Möst has "fallen foul of everybody in Vienna." Several of the State Opera's music directors have quit for the same reason; it's almost routine in Vienna. :)

As for Cleveland, Welser-Möst's first year as music director was so successful that the orchestra immediately extended his contract to ten years, and has extended his contract again and again - it now runs to 2022. So he can't be in trouble in Cleveland, whatever he may have said "in an unguarded moment." To the contrary, it would seem.
John Francis

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:44 pm

I agree, FWM is not my favorite conductor but he's good enough as conductors go these days, especially in choral and operatic repertoire. I maybe should have mentioned that he thought the snide bluehair comment was off the record. At any rate his position in Cleveland and his guest conducting of the VPO seem secure. He has grown a lot since his days in London.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:46 pm

John F wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:35 pm
Welser-Möst was appointed music director of the Vienna State Opera in 2010 and left that post (i.e. he was not dismissed) after four years because of "irreconcilable differences of opinion" over artistic matters, presumably with artistic director Dominique Meyer. What those differences were hasn't been spelled out as far as I know; Welser-Möst has only said, "The differences of opinion . . . have not merely occurred overnight. We have attempted on many occasions to find a resolution." But I certainly haven't heard that Welser-Möst has "fallen foul of everybody in Vienna." Several of the State Opera's music directors have quit for the same reason; it's almost routine in Vienna. :)

As for Cleveland, Welser-Möst's first year as music director was so successful that the orchestra immediately extended his contract to ten years, and has extended his contract again and again - it now runs to 2022. So he can't be in trouble in Cleveland, whatever he may have said "in an unguarded moment." To the contrary, it would seem.
There was most definitely brouhaha when he was first at Cleveland; I remember reading it myself. And it's different in Vienna; FMW is one of their own. The rest have mostly been foreign 'interlopers'. He's not very nice, despite that beatific smile he wears when conducting the Neujahrzkonzert!

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:00 pm

Belle wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:46 pm
There was most definitely brouhaha when he was first at Cleveland; I remember reading it myself. And it's different in Vienna; FMW is one of their own. The rest have mostly been foreign 'interlopers'. He's not very nice, despite that beatific smile he wears when conducting the Neujahrzkonzert!
The brouhaha came about when Plain Dealer classical music critic Donald Rosenberg was taken off the CleveOrch beat and reassigned to general arts and style reporting after relentlessly criticizing Welser-Most to the point of being denied access by the orchestra's mgt, Rosenberg sued, for ageism no less, but lost, and later the PD found a way to riff him. IIRC, it was Rosenberg who printed the bluehair put-down that FWM mistakenly thought was off-the-record. I thought Rosenberg was way too harsh in his criticism but otherwise found him to be a music critic of the first magnitude who put his employer in an untenable position by provoking orchestra management to freeze him out.

As for conductorial niceness, I read that LB called Bruno Walter a saint. And LB's predecessor Mitropoulos was a very nice man. Look what that got him.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:46 pm

I was thinking more about the perspectives of the orchestral musicians, not other conductors. I'm not sure they're looking for saints, exactly. They're usually dead people, aren't they?

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:15 pm

As I recall, it was PSONY orchestral musicians who took full advantage of Mitropoulos, a nice guy they could prey upon.

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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:35 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:15 pm
As I recall, it was PSONY orchestral musicians who took full advantage of Mitropoulos, a nice guy they could prey upon.
I don't know anything about it at all! I just refer you to my comments on another thread; "the morality of society runs vertically through all the classes and not just horizontally through one". It was one of my late father's more perceptive observations - and he had dozens of them. (I guess that's how he landed near the top in a company which employed 12,000!!)

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:14 pm

Belle wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:35 pm
I just refer you to my comments on another thread; "the morality of society runs vertically through all the classes and not just horizontally through one." It was one of my late father's more perceptive observations...I guess that's how he landed near the top
This saying appears to have it backwards. It makes more sense this way: "The morality of society runs horizontally through all the classes and not just vertically through one."

That's the way I believe my own dad would have put it. His company so valued productivity that its white-collar workers often resigned to take jobs with the same company on its factory floor b/c that's where you could make the most. 10,000 employees worldwide, overseen by a limited number of supervisors. Employee group insurance, instituted 1915; company-stock ownership equity plan, 1923; productivity advisory board, 1929; annual incentive bonuses that on average increase a worker's earnings by 60% instituted in 1934 at the height of the Great Depression; guaranteed continuous employment, i.e., no layoffs then or since.

Call it morality or enlightened self-interest, such a modded egalitarian management system, while far from perfect, has many advantages.

Belle
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:28 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:14 pm
Belle wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:35 pm
I just refer you to my comments on another thread; "the morality of society runs vertically through all the classes and not just horizontally through one." It was one of my late father's more perceptive observations...I guess that's how he landed near the top
This saying appears to have it backwards. It makes more sense this way: "The morality of society runs horizontally through all the classes and not just vertically through one."

That's the way I believe my own dad would have put it. His company so valued productivity that its white-collar workers often resigned to take jobs with the same company on its factory floor b/c that's where you could make the most. 10,000 employees worldwide, overseen by a limited number of supervisors. Employee group insurance, instituted 1915; company-stock ownership equity plan, 1923; productivity advisory board, 1929; annual incentive bonuses that on average increase a worker's earnings by 60% instituted in 1934 at the height of the Great Depression; guaranteed continuous employment, i.e., no layoffs then or since.

Call it morality or enlightened self-interest, such a modded egalitarian management system, while far from perfect, has many advantages.
My father had the morality quote right; society is arranged in groupings/dominance heirarchies that go from top to bottom - not in a straight line moving sideways. That last is wishful thinking!! :D

His own company with the 12,000 employees was a steel-making giant and they had generous schemes for workers and staff too. But my father paid the price with lower wages than he could have earned elsewhere. He was an engineer. And it never stopped the unions pulling the men off the job at the slightest opportunity. From mosquitoes to mice in the lunchroom the shop steward would grind to a halt a 300 million dollar steel mill at the drop of a hat. My father never forgot or forgave them because he was a fair man himself but was treated by his underlings as just another exploiting executive type. He told me on his deathbed about how he went into bat for men who were in danger of losing their jobs and who had large families to support - often at the expense of his relationships with more senior management at the time. I wish he'd told me earlier.

We didn't live with the kind of lifestyle you'd expect from somebody who had a major executive position in a huge corporation, as in those days you had the job for life and the company rewarded that loyalty in other ways. My mother died at 58 in 1984 and the company picked up the tab for all her medical bills, despite my father having retired a few years earlier. We have strayed a lot way off the topic here!!

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:07 am

Belle wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:28 pm
My father had the morality quote right; society is arranged in groupings/dominance hierarchies that go from top to bottom - not in a straight line moving sideways. That last is wishful thinking!!
One person's wishful thinking is another person's idealism. I'll try to break this to you gently—egalitarianism is the better way to go. After splitting from the Brits over this issue among others some time ago, we managed to knock their cocks off (the cocks on their tricornes, of course), so let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

As for unions, there aren't any at my dad's company. They never even tried to organize that company even though its home plant in Ohio alone employs 3,000 workers with more than 7,000 others worldwide. Its workers were doing too well financially to need a union. Besides, unions had a history of opposing incentive pay systems that were at the heart of this company's success. This is a company whose workers so bought into productivity that it turned a profit all thru the Great Depression and later instituted an guaranteed continuous employment program.

You see, going off topic doesn't necessarily take one off the beaten track.
Last edited by jserraglio on Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:59 am, edited 6 times in total.

lennygoran
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:32 am

Belle getting back on track this from the NY Times today. Regards, Len :lol:


Review: The New York Philharmonic Gets Audacious, With Ease

By Seth Colter Walls June 10, 2018

In the end, the rare presence of officially sanctioned booze was not the oddest thing about the New York Philharmonic’s concert on Friday night.

More than an hour after the official end of the program — which served as the finale of Esa-Pekka Salonen’s three-year stint as the orchestra’s composer in residence — someone was still playing live music inside David Geffen Hall.

Though the concert had begun nearly three hours before and everyone was free to leave, at least 100 people remained as the Finnish violinist Pekka Kuusisto, heard earlier that night as the soloist in a concerto, had swapped his traditional instrument for an electric one and played an improvisatory encore that included blasts of amplified noise distortion (think Merzbow).


Mr. Salonen — who also conducted two of his own delirious, top-shelf orchestral scores and paired each with a multimedia flourish — was obviously trying to create an event. And by allowing drinks inside the hall, he was trying to bring aspects of concert life that are unremarkable elsewhere to the classical music experience.

Extramusical stunts can easily feel extraneous. And setting a higher bar for hipness can lead to results that fall short and come across as tragically strained. (Adults imbibing clear cocktails from plastic “souvenir” mugs reminiscent of sippy cups did not embody the nightclub aesthetic.) But this self-consciously audacious concert came off with a surprising sense of ease.

Most of the credit belonged to the Philharmonic’s deep feeling for Mr. Salonen’s music; both performances of his works would have thrilled even the most sober crowds. In the opening movement of “Foreign Bodies,” the orchestra dug into a martial riff with impressive vigor. But its approach wasn’t all about abandon. The third movement’s opening is announced by Minimalist harp figures and muted tones — suggestive of jazz, but not imitative — in the brasses. The composer-conductor and the orchestra projected this fine synthesis of textures with a gratifying elegance.

The accompanying live video installation, designed and executed by Tal Rosner, was sensitive to prismatic changes in the music. When Salonen’s music blew on some slowly burning ember of a foregoing phrase, fomenting smoke for a new tutti passage, the video often responded with an imaginative visual point of comparison: exploding into surreally Fauvist color schemes, or using a live feed of the orchestra as the basis for a swirl of line-drawing patterns.

This collaboration was a potent element in an already rich concert — as was Wayne McGregor’s ballet “Obsidian Tear,” set to Mr. Salonen’s solo violin work “Lachen Verlernt” (performed by Simone Porter) and the orchestral workout “Nyx.” As dancers from Boston Ballet enacted the climax of the dance’s opaque (but gripping) central conflict at the front of the stage, Mr. Salonen occasionally peered behind his right shoulder, waiting to time the next orchestral swerve in sync with the action.

Members of the Boston Ballet performed Wayne McGregor's "Obsidian Tear," set to two works by Mr. Salonen.CreditCaitlin Ochs for The New York Times

Similar spasms of showmanship were evident throughout the concert. Mr. Salonen was so preternaturally confident in this work that he announced Mr. Kuusisto’s encore before the ballet began. (No fear of tipping one’s hand, or of anticlimax, here.)

Mr. Kuusisto, as in his eventual post-show performance, displayed a keen ear for uncommon textures when playing Daniel Bjarnason’s Violin Concerto, which was slotted in between Mr. Salonen’s compositions.

At the beginning of the concerto, the soloist whistles a folk-like melody; later on, the score calls for intense scraping sounds. Mr. Bjarnason delights — perhaps once too often — in creating a journey back to tuneful melody after some noisy extended-technique breakdowns. Still, Mr. Kuusisto fashioned a cheerful emotional arc from all this material. As with the rest of the night, the aim was to be to make something experimental appear natural.

Perhaps even repeatable. In an interview with The New York Times last week, Mr. Salonen outlined a vision for bringing classical concert life more in line with other forms of contemporary entertainment. He’s not the first artist at the Philharmonic to have this idea. Alan Gilbert, the orchestra’s former music director, also made must-see events out of orchestral programming, with seasonal regularity.

There are still hints of this. Last month, the orchestra’s performance of Luciano Berio’s “Sinfonia” achieved an exalted state of intoxicating transcendence, no alcohol at the seats required. If the Philharmonic can assimilate Mr. Salonen’s parting advice with some of its own recent history, pretty soon aficionados won’t be talking about whether Geffen Hall needs renovations. They’ll just be making plans to be there more frequently.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/10/arts ... collection

John F
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by John F » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:32 am

Salonen probably doesn't know about this - why should he? - but the Boston Pops concerts have featured the serving of beer while the performance is going on. In the old days when Arthur Fiedler was the conductor, and continuing (somewhat reduced) under John Williams, much of the Pops programming was classical music, with a concerto as the middle third of the concert. Then, when the Pops went on PBS, there was no classical music at all, and the Pops took a back seat to the featured singer or guitarist or whatever. When I went to the concert for my 50th reunion, the music was all shlock. But the beer was still there for the drinking.
John Francis

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:48 am

John F wrote:the music was all shlock. But the beer was still there for the drinking.
As was the case for Cleveland Pops concerts pre-Blossom. Those were awash in suds and I was an underage drinker, quite easy at the time. However, the music Louis Lane provided was far from schlock. I was hooked and crocked simultaneously,

Being to the manner born, I believe food and drink at concerts is a custom more honour'd in the observance than the breach.
Last edited by jserraglio on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Belle
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:00 am

jserraglio wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:07 am
Belle wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:28 pm
My father had the morality quote right; society is arranged in groupings/dominance hierarchies that go from top to bottom - not in a straight line moving sideways. That last is wishful thinking!!
One person's wishful thinking is another person's idealism. I'll try to break this to you gently—egalitarianism is the better way to go. After splitting from the Brits over this issue among others some time ago, we managed to knock their cocks off (the cocks on their tricornes, I mean), so let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

As for unions, there aren't any at my dad's company. They never even tried to organize that company even though its home plant in Ohio alone employs 3,000 workers with more than 7,000 others worldwide. Its workers were doing too well financially to need a union. Besides, unions had a history of opposing incentive pay systems that were at the heart of this company's success. This is a company whose workers so bought into productivity that it turned a profit all thru the Great Depression and later instituted an guaranteed continuous employment program.

You see, going off topic doesn't necessarily take one off the beaten track.
Bad news; there is no egalitarianism. A private in the army has a boss called a general. Same in any organization - top to bottom. Same with classes, castes, societies. We are organized along hierarchical lines and, unless we opt for the old soviet model, this isn't going to change. I'm a hard-nosed realist and likely to remain so.

Belle
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by Belle » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:03 am

John F wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:32 am
Salonen probably doesn't know about this - why should he? - but the Boston Pops concerts have featured the serving of beer while the performance is going on. In the old days when Arthur Fiedler was the conductor, and continuing (somewhat reduced) under John Williams, much of the Pops programming was classical music, with a concerto as the middle third of the concert. Then, when the Pops went on PBS, there was no classical music at all, and the Pops took a back seat to the featured singer or guitarist or whatever. When I went to the concert for my 50th reunion, the music was all shlock. But the beer was still there for the drinking.
Andre Rieu features heavy lashings of beer. But then, you need it to tolerate his particular fare.

jserraglio
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Re: Concert Hall Allow Drinks and More

Post by jserraglio » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:08 am

I'm a hard-nosed realist and likely to remain so.
Indeed, hard-nose has become the glass of fashion these days, I regret to admit.

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