120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

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jserraglio
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120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:40 am


maestrob
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:28 pm

Wonderful!

It's about time Ormandy got his due! :D

That said, not everything he recorded was the best version available, but there is so much greatness in his legacy that those who may not be so familiar with his unprecedented 44(!) year tenure, which included many world premiere recordings of music from Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich and even Bartok & Mahler should immediately schedule a delivery of this set. Not even the great Chicago Symphony could equal the magnificent Philadelphia string sound during that era.

I was lucky enough to experience the best of his years live in concert, when he could finally use a baton during the 1960's and early 1970's in the Academy of Music when he was recording then new works by Shostakovich and making premiere recordings of Rachmaninoff's First Symphony and Cooke's orchestration of Mahler's Tenth, a revelation and still my go-to recording for those works. He also premiered works by Prokofiev and Martinu, recording them later on in stereo for Columbia in definitive readings.

Thanks so much, Joe, for the alert. It's about time for this to happen! 8)

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:47 pm

To say nothing of his advocacy and recordings of numerous American composers rivaling even those of to-the-culture-born Lenny Bernstein — Herbert, Piston, Dello Joio, Schuman, Thomson, Giannetti, Ives, Harris, Gesensway, Persichetti, Yardumian, Kay, Vincent, etc.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:17 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:47 pm
To say nothing of his recordings of American composers which rivaled those of Bernstein — Dello Joio, Schuman, Thomson, Giannetti, Ives, Harris, Gesensway, etc.
Precisely!

Many listeners think of the Philadelphia Orchestra as a staid, middle-of-the-road ensemble interested in promoting Beethoven & Tchaikovsky, but Ormandy was keenly interested in promoting XXth Century repertoire, and his legacy includes great interpretations of many of what were to him contemporary composers as well.

Strangely though, when he decided to tackle Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Ormandy chose to re-bar the entire ballet to make it easier to conduct! I've never heard the recording, to be honest, but have been told that it's quite awkward in spite of his efforts.

Also, when I heard him conduct the Beethoven symphonies in concert during the middle 1960's, they sounded very much like Ormandy had not spent much time in rehearsal on them. As a teenager I was very much a fan of Toscanini's energetic and transparent approach, so ever since I've avoided listening to them. OTOH, his recording of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis (with Arroyo, Forrester and Siepi) stands tall right next to more well-known versions by Klemperer and Von Karajan, IMHO. It's available for streaming on amazon if you're interested.

So what? Every great musician has done things that I disagree with. The point is that Ormandy's massive output on both labels (RCA & Columbia), starting in the 1930's when he took over from Stokowski, is equaled by no other conductor (except Bernstein in his NY years) for its overall quality. In fact, when RCA unceremoniously dumped the Philadelphia Orchestra, Ormandy continued to record successfully for Telarc and Delos, both of which were delighted to have him in their stables. Ormandy's digital recording of the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony for Telarc remains in print to this day.

There is just so much depth to his legacy, a great musician who started out playing the violin here in New York's Capitol Theater in the 1920's. What a destiny!

His brother Martin, btw, after playing with the NY Philharmonic for 36 years, remained a free-lance cellist here in NY for many decades and passed away at 95:

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xp ... story.html

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:26 pm

Menotti Violin Concerto and Barber Adagio for Strings.

The Three B's?

His Beethoven Ninth was not chopped liver. Nor was the Brahms German Requiem in English. The Bach St John Passion.

Honegger's St Joan at the Stake in French with Vera Zorina blew me away.

ETC., ETC.

maestrob
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:58 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:26 pm
Menotti Violin Concerto and Barber Adagio for Strings.

The Three B's?

His Beethoven Ninth was not chopped liver. Nor was the Brahms German Requiem in English. The Bach St John Passion.

Honegger's St Joan at the Stake in French with Vera Zorina blew me away.

ETC., ETC.
That version of the Barber still brings a lump to my throat. Nobody does string sound like the Philadelphians. His Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings ain't chopped liver either.

Speaking of things French, I look forward to hearing again after many decades Ormandy's recording of Debussy's Le Martyre de St. Sebastien, which has never been issued on CD TMK.

So many great memories! 😉

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by Lance » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:12 pm

I was just looking through my catalogue of Ormandy recordings, on major labels, it shows 180 entries (Columbia-Sony, RCA, EMI, Testament); on minor labels, there is another 88. Within the minor label section are live performances not otherwise available, and transfers on labels such as Membran, Naxos, Biddulph and myriad others, 40 in all. One wonders what is in the new 120-CD box. Since I was almost always focused on collaborations, those were first picks, but then there are tons of orchestral repertoire as well. I will be anxious to see the whole list of the new 120-CD box to determine what is brand new on CD. Apparently no complete list has been shown.

I still eagerly await the Rodzinski set that is now due to come out in April 2021. I wonder what the holdup was on that since it was supposed to be issued much earlier.
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:13 am

Lance wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:12 pm
I was just looking through my catalogue of Ormandy recordings, on major labels, it shows 180 entries (Columbia-Sony, RCA, EMI, Testament); on minor labels, there is another 88. Within the minor label section are live performances not otherwise available, and transfers on labels such as Membran, Naxos, Biddulph and myriad others, 40 in all. One wonders what is in the new 120-CD box. Since I was almost always focused on collaborations, those were first picks, but then there are tons of orchestral repertoire as wekk. I will be anxious to see the whole list of the new 120-CD box to determine what is brand new on CD. Apparently no complete list has been shown.

I still eagerly await the Rodzinski set that is now due to come out in April 2021. I wonder what the holdup was on that since it was supposed to be issued much earlier.
Hello, Lance!

You consistently amaze me with the depth of your collection and how well organized your are about it.

While I too have many Ormandy CDs, as a devoted follower of my home-town orchestra I will probably want this box. Many of the Ormandy CDs I have are from when they were first issued 30 years ago, and I'm sure new mastering techniques will improve the sound. Plus, there is much that has not come out on CD, such as the Martyre de St. Sebastien, which I must have. Ormandy's many firsts in XXth Century music are well worth updating as well. Would you believe he recorded Rachmaninoff II FOUR times? The earliest version with the then Minneapolis Symphony, which I grew up with on 78's, has never seen the light of day since the mid-1930's. I did manage to download a very good restoration and make a CD about 12 years ago from someone here, but there has been no commercial issue, not even on LP.

Barber's Adagio for Strings has never again been played/recorded with such passion and depth as it was in the mid-1960's with the Philadelphia strings. A re-mastering of that magnificent taping alone would be worth the price of the entire box for me.

I did manage to meet the Maestro in Strawbridge & Clothier at an autographing session when he returned to the RCA label in 1969. He kindly signed his great recording of Mahler X (which I told him I had witnessed in live performance) and a few other discs for me, even though the Mahler was on the Columbia label! :D

And it wasn't just Ormandy who was able to profit handsomely from the Philadelphia string sound. Stokowski returned to the orchestra to record his own arrangement of music from Tristan & Isolde in 1960, along with El Amor Brujo, a recording that has been re-issued over and over on various labels with glorious results.

I simply can't tell you how enthusiastic I am about this new Ormandy release!

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CharmNewton
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by CharmNewton » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:30 am

I've done some digging on this set and can't find any trace of it other than the posted link, which implies that it has already been published and is temporarily out of stock. The Philadelphia Orchestra itself doesn't seem to know about it, where I would expect it would be news, but if anyone has contacts within the orchestra they might inquire.

Given the number of discs and the title, this set would appear to cover only Ormandy's Columbia recordings, omitting the two periods he recorded for RCA. Even 120 discs might not be enough, since the Szell set (covering 24 years and including New York material) covered 108 discs. I suspect Ormandy recorded more often than Szell.

The listing reminds me of one I came across a little over 3 years ago for the Complete Columbia and RCA Album Collection of Pablo Casals on 26 CDs at amazon.co.uk. The anticipated release date was scheduled for December, 2018--about 18 months away from the listing I found. I pre-ordered it anyway and nothing happened until shortly after the set was to be released. Amazon canceled the order, and the set has never been issued. Whether it was ever planned, I have no idea. I'd love to have it and the absence of a Casals box is a major mystery unless legal issues are preventing the release of such a set.

So I wouldn't get my hopes up until more information about this box becomes available.

John

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:29 am


Lance
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by Lance » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:13 pm

So, the 120-CD box set is called the "Ormandy Columbia Legacy" which indicates, to me, the RCA recordings will NOT be included, a pity they didn't make one full sweep. That also might mean an "Ormandy RCA Legacy" may be forthcoming. Further, does "Legacy" mean everything he recorded for Columbia, including the very earliest recordings for the label. I will be watching with great interest as this develops.
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maestrob
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:26 pm

Lance wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:13 pm
So, the 120-CD box set is called the "Ormandy Columbia Legacy" which indicates, to me, the RCA recordings will NOT be included, a pity they didn't make one full sweep. That also might mean an "Ormandy RCA Legacy" may be forthcoming. Further, does "Legacy" mean everything he recorded for Columbia, including the very earliest recordings for the label. I will be watching with great interest as this develops.
IIRC, Lance, Ormandy switched from RCA to Columbia right after the end of WWII. I'll have to check that, and if I find out differently, I'll post it. I do know that he stayed with Columbia until 1968-9.

A box with all of his recordings for RCA would indeed be welcome! Included in that set would be the first electrical recording of Mahler's Second Symphony, made in Minneapolis in 1935, issued in a gargantuan 78RPM set of shellac discs.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by CharmNewton » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:01 pm

CDJapan has a huge number of CD listings for Ormandy's Columbia recordings so a lot of digital remastering has been done and could be available for such a project, but the Japanese no longer issue large box sets and rarely ever did at budget price so I wouldn't expect them to be a source. South Korea has issued a large Szell collection before Sony Classical issued the complete Columbia/Epic collection. Korean Universal has also issued large Solti and Milstein boxes. A couple of links I have to Korean dealers don't list this box, however.

Finally Sony Classical in Germany doesn't list it--in fact Ormandy is not listed as an artist on that site. It would have been a marvelous release for Christmas.

John

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:38 am

CharmNewton wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:01 pm
CDJapan has a huge number of CD listings for Ormandy's Columbia recordings so a lot of digital remastering has been done and could be available for such a project, but the Japanese no longer issue large box sets and rarely ever did at budget price so I wouldn't expect them to be a source. South Korea has issued a large Szell collection before Sony Classical issued the complete Columbia/Epic collection. Korean Universal has also issued large Solti and Milstein boxes. A couple of links I have to Korean dealers don't list this box, however.

Finally Sony Classical in Germany doesn't list it--in fact Ormandy is not listed as an artist on that site. It would have been a marvelous release for Christmas.

John
Speaking of Japanese releases, I believe they were the only ones to issue Ormandy's premiere recordings of Symphonies XIII & XIV, the former with bass Tom Krause in one of his finest recordings. I attended the Western premieres (1970/71) of both symphonies in the Academy of Music, and was thrilled to be there. What a reception!

When I was at Villanova, my minor was Russian, and, though my professor was Ukranian, he taught us several ways that Russian spoken in Moscow was different than in the "provinces."

When Kondrashin premiered XIII in Moscow in 1962 despite strong resistance from the authorities, a tape somehow made its way to Everest records, and they released it on LP quickly. Of course I bought a copy. I didn't understand the Russian, but I was deeply moved by the music as a youngster. I remember a Russian emigre student passing around mimeographed copies of the original Yevtushenko text when I was in college some years later, showing the alterations that the Soviet government had mandated for the premiere performance. Naturally, we discussed this in class. Ormandy, naturally, used the original text for his Western premiere in 1970, much to the chagrin of the Russian authorities who could do nothing about it.

There is currently one (1) copy of the Ormandy available on amazon, for those who don't have it. It documents a rare and precious historical moment in the history of music.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:57 am

FWIW, this link gives a projected release date: 21 March 2021. https://www.saturn.de/de/product/_e...d ... 09093.html

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:25 am

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:57 am
FWIW, this link gives a projected release date: 21 March 2021. https://www.saturn.de/de/product/_e...d ... 09093.html
Thanks, Joe! Let's hope it's distributed here with an English booklet.

We'll all be keeping an eye out.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by CharmNewton » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:26 pm

maestrob wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:38 am
Speaking of Japanese releases, I believe they were the only ones to issue Ormandy's premiere recordings of Symphonies XIII & XIV, the former with bass Tom Krause in one of his finest recordings. I attended the Western premieres (1970/71) of both symphonies in the Academy of Music, and was thrilled to be there. What a reception!

When I was at Villanova, my minor was Russian, and, though my professor was Ukranian, he taught us several ways that Russian spoken in Moscow was different than in the "provinces."

When Kondrashin premiered XIII in Moscow in 1962 despite strong resistance from the authorities, a tape somehow made its way to Everest records, and they released it on LP quickly. Of course I bought a copy. I didn't understand the Russian, but I was deeply moved by the music as a youngster. I remember a Russian emigre student passing around mimeographed copies of the original Yevtushenko text when I was in college some years later, showing the alterations that the Soviet government had mandated for the premiere performance. Naturally, we discussed this in class. Ormandy, naturally, used the original text for his Western premiere in 1970, much to the chagrin of the Russian authorities who could do nothing about it.

There is currently one (1) copy of the Ormandy available on amazon, for those who don't have it. It documents a rare and precious historical moment in the history of music.

Image
I imagine the excitement at being at the premiere is still palpable. Shostakovich may have been the last classical composer whose works generated that kind of excitement.

I had a subscriptions to the Chicago Symphony's Chamber Music series in the mid 1970s. At one of those concerts Richard Ferrin, a member of the orchestra (quite recognizable for his bright reddish-brown Tertis-model viola) gave the Chicago Premiere of the Viola Sonata, Op. 147 with Mary Sauer, the orchestra's pianist. WFMT came to record the event and may have broadcast it live. A very beautiful work.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a 2021 filled with happiness.

John

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by CharmNewton » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:34 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:57 am
FWIW, this link gives a projected release date: 21 March 2021. https://www.saturn.de/de/product/_e...d ... 09093.html
This is a good sign. Thanks for finding this.

John

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:47 am

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a 2021 filled with happiness.
And the same to you and yours, John!

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:19 am

Just got this message from a very knowledgeable collector and vinyl transfer artist, Paul Goldstein:
The word on the street is that Sony will be issuing a 100+ CD box sometime next year devoted to Eugene Ormandy's mono recordings.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:17 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:19 am
Just got this message from a very knowledgeable collector and vinyl transfer artist, Paul Goldstein:
The word on the street is that Sony will be issuing a 100+ CD box sometime next year devoted to Eugene Ormandy's mono recordings.
Great news, Joe!

Happy New Year! :D

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:25 pm

As soon as Paul stated that the issue would be limited to mono only, I decided to buy it. I have collected dozens of those mono Columbia’s on vinyl and dozens more digital LP rips from various sources, including Paul Goldstein. They represent Ormandy at his peak, in my view. I once owned the MSO/Mahler 2 on shellac.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:20 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:25 pm
As soon as Paul stated that the issue would be limited to mono only, I decided to buy it. I have collected dozens of those mono Columbia’s on vinyl and dozens more digital LP rips from various sources, including Paul Goldstein. They represent Ormandy at his peak, in my view. I once owned the MSO/Mahler 2 on shellac.
That Mahler II was issued on CD as part of the Maestro Brillante box, which I own. I believe it was the first recording of the symphony.

My first encounter with Mahler II was Solti's London Symphony recording on LP, and it remains a benchmark for me today, although Abbado's Lucerne DVD is even more detailed and powerful, IMHO. The "Urlicht" in his version still brings up a tear every time I hear it.

That original Ormandy shellac pressing must have weighed a ton! Do you remember how many records were in it? I'll bet your floor still has a depression in it where you stored that monster! :lol:

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:59 pm

11 discs, 22 sides. Bought it for 10 cents, 1930s prewar scroll label pressing, mint.

Discog https://www.discogs.com/Gustav-Mahler-E ... se/8307459

Victor AM 256-22 Label https://flic.kr/p/2knHsP3

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by slofstra » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:22 pm

maestrob wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:58 pm
jserraglio wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:26 pm
Menotti Violin Concerto and Barber Adagio for Strings.

The Three B's?

His Beethoven Ninth was not chopped liver. Nor was the Brahms German Requiem in English. The Bach St John Passion.

Honegger's St Joan at the Stake in French with Vera Zorina blew me away.

ETC., ETC.
That version of the Barber still brings a lump to my throat. Nobody does string sound like the Philadelphians. His Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings ain't chopped liver either.

Speaking of things French, I look forward to hearing again after many decades Ormandy's recording of Debussy's Le Martyre de St. Sebastien, which has never been issued on CD TMK.

So many great memories! 😉
It's funny you should mention the 'Serenade for Strings'. I never began to listen to classical music seriously until my mid to late 20s. But back in high school, I recall that I was just about the only student to check out the classical music records in the school library, of which the Ormandy/ Tchaikovsky multiple LP set was fully half the entire collection. I played it quite often, and found the Serenade especially accessible as a non-classical music devotee.

Then a few years later, Columbia issued double record sets like "The Wagner Album" with Ormandy/ Philadelphia specifically marketed to the non-classical music buyer. I purchased a few of these sets on my appreciation of the earlier Tchaikovsky set and again, they were very good listening. Crosby, Stills and Nash, the Rolling Stones and in between, "The Wagner Album".
It's quite difficult to put these recordings into any kind of perspective when they were the only classical music to which I listened as a young man. But now you have situated the 'Serenade for Strings' within a broader perspective, which I do not have the capacity to do, I am definitely interested in this new offering.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:51 am

slofstra wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:22 pm
maestrob wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:58 pm
jserraglio wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:26 pm
Menotti Violin Concerto and Barber Adagio for Strings.

The Three B's?

His Beethoven Ninth was not chopped liver. Nor was the Brahms German Requiem in English. The Bach St John Passion.

Honegger's St Joan at the Stake in French with Vera Zorina blew me away.

ETC., ETC.
That version of the Barber still brings a lump to my throat. Nobody does string sound like the Philadelphians. His Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings ain't chopped liver either.

Speaking of things French, I look forward to hearing again after many decades Ormandy's recording of Debussy's Le Martyre de St. Sebastien, which has never been issued on CD TMK.

So many great memories! 😉
It's funny you should mention the 'Serenade for Strings'. I never began to listen to classical music seriously until my mid to late 20s. But back in high school, I recall that I was just about the only student to check out the classical music records in the school library, of which the Ormandy/ Tchaikovsky multiple LP set was fully half the entire collection. I played it quite often, and found the Serenade especially accessible as a non-classical music devotee.

Then a few years later, Columbia issued double record sets like "The Wagner Album" with Ormandy/ Philadelphia specifically marketed to the non-classical music buyer. I purchased a few of these sets on my appreciation of the earlier Tchaikovsky set and again, they were very good listening. Crosby, Stills and Nash, the Rolling Stones and in between, "The Wagner Album".
It's quite difficult to put these recordings into any kind of perspective when they were the only classical music to which I listened as a young man. But now you have situated the 'Serenade for Strings' within a broader perspective, which I do not have the capacity to do, I am definitely interested in this new offering.
Good morning, Joe, and Happy New Year!

Ormandy first recorded Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings in mono during the early 1950's, IIRC, and that's the recording I grew to love as a young lad. When stereo was invented, he re-did it also for Columbia, and there were some slight differences (He opened a slight cut in the last movement that he had made in the mono version.), but that glorious Philadelphia string sound was still there, and that's the version that was remastered and re-issued on CD in 1991, coupled with a great performance of Tchaikovsky V, which I also grew up with. I remember being surprised at the few added bars, but I grew to prefer them as the years went by.

Luckily for us, that 1991 disc is available for streaming on amazon now, just by entering "Ormandy Tchaikovsky" and scrolling down until you see this cover:

Image

IIRC, the original LP issue of the Serenade for Strings had the Borodin movement from his string quartet II, the Barber Adagio, and Vaughan-Williams's Fantasia on Greensleeves on the B side, all ravishingly played.

I will definitely be getting both the mono and stereo boxes as they become available in 2021.

Again, Happy New Year! 😉

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by Lance » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:59 pm

Thinking about these new Ormandy sets ... it's about time Sony came forth with these even most of us already have (perhaps) a great deal of Ormandy on CDs not to mention LPs we may have retained. Then, will there be the third set - of just the RCA recordings?
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by Wallingford » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:50 pm

If it's all mono recordings, it'd sure be swell to finally get that Ormandy performance of Tapiola!
Good music is that which falls upon the ear with ease, and quits the memory with difficulty.
--Sir Thomas Beecham

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:50 pm

Wallingford wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:50 pm
If it's all mono recordings, it'd sure be swell to finally get that Ormandy performance of Tapiola!
No listing yet but this link suggests that it is all (or mostly) comprised of mono recordings.

https://www.amazon.fr/Eugene-Ormandy-Co ... 55If5SBu0w

I know most of those covers pictured on Amazon France b/c I own them and I don’t see any stereo covers pictured here.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:18 am

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:50 pm
Wallingford wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:50 pm
If it's all mono recordings, it'd sure be swell to finally get that Ormandy performance of Tapiola!
No listing yet but this link suggests that it is all (or mostly) comprised of mono recordings.

https://www.amazon.fr/Eugene-Ormandy-Co ... 55If5SBu0w

I know most of those covers pictured on Amazon France b/c I own them and I don’t see any stereo covers pictured here.
Good morning, Joe! :D

I looked carefully at the French Amazon website, and zoomed in on the picture carefully. Since it is an "original covers" collection, I noticed that some of the labels pictured were 8-eye grey and red, but my memory isn't clear on whether Columbia started using that label when they were still manufacturing mono-only records in the late 1950's. I could not find anything saying stereo anywhere, same as you.

At any rate, since I can understand French, I read through the material on the page, and there is still no definite issue date given. I did discover that the box will contain 120 CDs. I know that Ormandy began to record in stereo in 1957, but stereo records were not pressed until 1959 when the format was finalized. It would be amazing if all those 120 albums were in mono, but it's possible, as Ormandy began with Columbia right after WWII, and he recorded hundreds of records during his career. He was even more prolific than HvK, and he learned new scores quickly.

Still, 120 albums in mono is a lot.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:41 am

I must have at least 50 Ormandy monos in my vinyl collection, but nowhere near all of them.

Plenty of those Ormandy monos are 6-eye gray label pressings. The 6-eye reds were prefixed CL not ML and I also have plenty of those by the likes of Andre Kostelanetz.

Whatever. I am buying this set whatever is in it. But I’m betting it’ll be overwhelmingly OJ mono. A few of the stereos appeared in a separate OJ set a few years ago.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:26 am

jserraglio wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:41 am
I must have at least 50 Ormandy monos in my vinyl collection, but nowhere near all of them.

Plenty of those Ormandy monos are 6-eye gray label pressings. The 6-eye reds were prefixed CL not ML and I also have plenty of those by the likes of Andre Kostelanetz.

Whatever. I am buying this set whatever is in it. But I’m betting it’ll be overwhelmingly OJ mono. A few of the stereos appeared in a separate OJ set a few years ago.
Sure! I've got lots of Ormandy's stereo recordings, coming from Philadelphia, but very little of his mono output. This is a must-buy for me, hands down, as soon as it is issued.

From what I remember growing up, his mono recordings of core romantic repertoire were more focused, since he appeared to be more engaged with XXth century music when I was attending the Academy of Music concerts during the 1960's and '70's while he was remaking his repertoire from the previous decades in stereo.

Can't wait! 8)

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:04 pm

"World's Greatest Orchestra" moniker. Uniformly excellent and, yes, there is a lot of unusual repertoire: Honegger, Dello Joio, Gesensway, Schuman, etc.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:05 am

Last edited by jserraglio on Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:14 am

Unkess otherwise indicated, all material below was QTD from the very knowledgeable enthusiasts and professional transfer artists posting their reactions on the RMCR newsgroup . . . . For me, the set is a must-have even though I already have quite a bit of it on LP vinyl.

Looks like all the mono Columbia Philadelphia Orchestra recordings are included, for which I say kudos. The "Philadelphia Orchestra Pops" was a creation of the Orchestra's contract with Columbia--these recordings are really just the Philadelphia Orchestra. And, by the way, the contents list "5 Songs from William Blake," so I infer that the controversial song IS included. Kudos again. But, interestingly, not the Schumann cello concerto with Casals, which I believe is Ormandy's only other mono Columbia. —Richard Kaplan

NOTE: Thomson/Blake’s song “Little Black Boy” on the original 1953 issue Columbia ML 4919, which a friend once lent me to rip, was censored by being dropped from later reissues. —js.

Image

In looking over the complete listing on the bottom of the box from the German Amazon page, it looks like the guiding principle was to include all of Ormandy's mono Columbias, with or without the Philadelphia Orchestra (although as Rich notes, they missed the Schumann Cello Concerto with Casals and the Prades Orchestra, although Ormandy was not credited on the original release), along with all the other recordings made by the PO or PO "Pops" or the Philadelphia-based Columbia SO under all other conductors during the mono era, whether they were originally coupled with an Ormandy recording or not. Thus we see Virgil Thomson and Harl McDonald on CD 27, Hilsberg conducting the PO "Pops" on CD 44 and 102, Bruno Walter's two PO recordings on CD 118, Kostelanetz and Beecham on CD 119, even Charles O'Connell with the "Columbia SO" on CD 120. (I wonder why they didn't go all-out and do the Robin Hood Dell Orchestra recordings while they were at it . . .) —Mark Obert-Thorn

I wondered the same thing. Also, there are a number of recordings that were in fact issued in stereo after their initial mono release: Brahms's Hungarian Dances 17-21, Vincent's Symphony in D, the Vaughan Williams, Borodin and Barber from ML-5187, the Gliere Russian Sailors' Dance, the Enescu Roumanian Rhapsodies, and the Liszt Mephisto Waltz. And, several items that we presume were recorded in stereo but not issued thus: the Schubert "Unfinished" Symphony, for which a stereo matrix was prepared, and the Mendelssohn MSND music, which actually appeared in stereo on a 2-track reel-to-reel tape (which I have). For the Frau ohne Schatten and Rosenkavalier Suites the stereo number MS-6054 was assigned but not issued. Likewise the stereo version of Beethoven's "Emperor" Concerto stereo number MS-6021 was assigned but not issued. It'll be interesting to see whether Sony presents any of these in stereo in this box. —Richard Kaplan

. . . They have cast the net wider than just the Philadelphia ensemble: the translated Fledermaus is also included. For me, English-language Fledermauses are just a little more desirable than a Bulgarian Pelleas or Dutch La Vida Breve.

. . . The Mitropoulos recs of Morton Gould and Kirchner with the NYPO are also included.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:58 am

Wow! :D

Thanks so much, Joe, for finding all this and posting it.

These comments confirm what I thought to be true, that the set included ALL of Ormandy's many stereo issues as well as the monaural ones.

How did the Mitropoulos NYPO items get in there?

So when is the RCA/Sony box coming? 😉

It's way past time for Sony to put this out, and I will gladly shell out the asking price when they produce enough to sell in the U. S. market. 8)

For a lark, I went on amazon just now looking for one of my favorite Ormandy recordings, and here's the text and album cover of what I found there:

Saint-Saens: Organ Symphony; Bacchan Ale; Danse Macabre; Carnaval Des Ani Maux :roll:

Image

Amazing what English software does to French sometimes! :lol:

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by Lance » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:20 pm

This set even looks more interesting especially with some non-Ormandy items included thereon! Apparently this set cannot be ordered from Amazon/Germany to be sent to the USA. In US$ the price is around $248.00, but no Prime shipping available to the USA so I suspect postage on this item might be on the high side. I'm surprised that Amazon/USA hasn't even posted this on their website as yet. Do I understand this is the ONLY Ormandy edition or will there be yet another to complement this set?
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:31 am

Here you will find a more detailed track list. The set is now available for preorder with a probable delivery date of April 9, 2021, costing $256 plus shipping.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail ... 39?lang=en

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:02 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:31 am
Here you will find a more detailed track list. The set is now available for preorder with a probable delivery date of April 9, 2021, costing $256 plus shipping.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail ... 39?lang=en
OK, so that page makes clear that the box contains only Ormandy's MONO recordings for Columbia Records. What an amazingly prolific conductor!

Thanks for clearing that up, Joe! :D

I wonder what amazon USA's price will be, or if they'll even carry it? Hope springs eternal, and I must have this. There's even the complete Fledermaus with Lubja Welitsch and Richard Tucker from the MET in 1952, which has never before been issued on CD. A treasure-trove of great music-making!

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:21 pm

So long as the set weighs in at under $300 with shipping, I intend to buy it. I fight shy of mega boxes but most of these never made it to CD.

The dozens of mono Ormandy LPs I have (especially the Bartok, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Sibelius, R. Strauss, Honegger, and Stravinsky mono issues) are splendid.

Also the Virtuosi di Philadelphia disk and all the disks featuring American composers.

Don’t forget the Victor Herbert disk! The Ormandy Fledermaus with the Met on Odyssey was my first and I still have it. I love opera in English. His stereo Brahms German Requiem in English is one of the best. And this 1968 JSB SJP (German) should be reissued: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F4qgfy2UUE

I am just finishing up the Reiner Pittsburgh set this morning.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by Lance » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:36 pm

Oddly, Amazon/Germany says they cannot ship to me in the USA. On the other hand JPC/Germany can ship ... cost is slightly smaller in Euros, however the postal fee is heavy. I have not seen this one appear on Amazon/USA or any other supplier. I wonder why.
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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by slofstra » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:52 pm

Lance wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:36 pm
Oddly, Amazon/Germany says they cannot ship to me in the USA. On the other hand JPC/Germany can ship ... cost is slightly smaller in Euros, however the postal fee is heavy. I have not seen this one appear on Amazon/USA or any other supplier. I wonder why.
It's entirely possible that some of the recordings have slipped out of copyright protection in other countries but not in the US. I'm guessing at this but the USA does protect works for longer time periods than other countries.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:18 am

slofstra wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:52 pm
It's entirely possible that some of the recordings have slipped out of copyright protection in other countries but not in the US. I'm guessing at this but the USA does protect works for longer time periods than other countries.
I thought Sony owned the Columbia catalog lock, stock and barrel. I just bought the Sony Reiner/Pittsburgh box recorded about the same era from Amazon USA. There’s also a Sony Rodzinski/NYP set in the works. I’m going to wait a bit before ordering overseas.

BTW, another of my favorites issued on CD for the first time in this set is ML 4629, First Chair, vol. 1 encores, 1952. CD 45.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:59 am

Tower Japan’s offering with a description of the product and full track-by-track recording info (machine translated).

The numerous non-Ormandy items are marked with a square (■). Fascinating!

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 01/29/1112

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by maestrob » Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:32 am

Yes, Joe, fascinating!

Interesting that this box is being rolled out in Germany and Japan first, obviously to test the market. There are collectors everywhere!

The translation of the Japanese text produced some real clinkers, most notably:
A masterpiece unique to the middle ages with a fast tempo
I didn't know they made records in Robin Hood's time! Maybe that's why the summer home of Philadelphia Orchestra is known as "The Robin Hood Dell!" :wink:

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:54 am

Correction.
Mark O-T wrote:The "Light Cavalry Overture" on CD 102 was conducted by Alexander Hilsberg, not Ormandy, and is from the same session as the "Roman Carnival Overture" which follows it (which Sony correctly credits to Hilsberg).

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by slofstra » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:02 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:18 am
slofstra wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:52 pm
It's entirely possible that some of the recordings have slipped out of copyright protection in other countries but not in the US. I'm guessing at this but the USA does protect works for longer time periods than other countries.
I thought Sony owned the Columbia catalog lock, stock and barrel. I just bought the Sony Reiner/Pittsburgh box recorded about the same era from Amazon USA. There’s also a Sony Rodzinski/NYP set in the works. I’m going to wait a bit before ordering overseas.

BTW, another of my favorites issued on CD for the first time in this set is ML 4629, First Chair, vol. 1 encores, 1952. CD 45.

Image
When one company purchases another I don't know if they gain the copyright? Wouldn't that stay with the orchestra, with a licence provided to the record company to publish. I'm actually not sure how that works by default. Of course, contracts can slice or dice the rights all kinds of ways.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm

FWIW, the Tower Japan site states that this set has the approval of the Phila. Orch.
Authorized release with the full cooperation of the Philadelphia Orchestra.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by slofstra » Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:13 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm
FWIW, the Tower Japan site states that this set has the approval of the Phila. Orch.
Authorized release with the full cooperation of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Yes, in Japan. That doesn't mean the approval is forthcoming in the USA, or that the orchestra's royalty entitlements aren't quite different here.
Perhaps I shouldn't speculate, because that's all it is. I am wondering, though, if we have seen this pattern on previous releases - an early release in the EU/ Japan and later release in North America.

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Re: 120-disc Ormandy Columbia Legacy box is in the works

Post by jserraglio » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:27 pm

If I were Philly and had to choose between getting royalties and not getting royalties on USA sales from recordings that are about 3/4 of a century old, I know which I would choose. I’m betting this set will appear in the US.

If the set turns out to be unavailable in the States in the spring, I will order it from Germany or France. It is the most interesting mega box I have run across so far.

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