Getting More Serious on Lieder

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lennygoran
Posts: 16773
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:29 am

Getting More Serious on Lieder

on this show I decided to give the lieder of Schubert a more energetic try-it had been years since I had last listened to lieder

About the Episode
Great Performances: Now Hear This “The Schubert
Premieres Friday, September 25 at 9 p.m. on PBS (check local listings), pbs.org/nowhearthis and the PBS Video app

Franz Schubert composed 1,500 works, but his genius wasn’t recognized until after his tragic death at 31. The Vienna native never found success in his hometown, then the world’s musical capital. Host Scott Yoo goes to today’s musical capitals to meet tomorrow’s most promising artists—all of them Schubert’s age during his career—to understand Schubert’s life through some of his greatest music and learn what it takes for a young classical artist to make it in the 21st century.
Places visited: New York City and rural New York; Montreal and rural Quebec; Philadelphia, P.A.
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/now-hear ... out/11834/



I sat in front of the big TV connected to the roku and watched while using my tablet for the english translations-I just loved the setting for Schubert Lieder - Dietrich Fischer Dieskau & Sviatoslav Richter (1978) but I preferred the Schubert Lieder Anne Sofie von Otter Claudio Abbado-I think maybe because it was a full orchestra-anyway I want to continue at this from time to time and would love to know what are people's favorite lieder. Regards, Len


1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpteIfoeDTs

Lieder - Dietrich Fischer Dieskau & Sviatoslav Richter (1978)

Recorded in the Napoleon Room of Shloss Ismaning

00:23​ - Am Fenster, D.878
04:45​ - An der Donau, D.553
07:50​ - Liebeslauchen, D.698
12:26​ - Auf der Bruck, D.853
16:00​ - Fischerweise, D.881b
19:12​ - Der Wanderer, D.649
22:38​ - Die Sterne, D.939
26:00​ - Im Frühling, D.882


2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clphEF8jH8o

Schubert Lieder Anne Sofie von Otter Claudio Abbado
Sonorum Concentus Haydn & Schubert

Franz Schubert
Lieder with various orchestrations
Anne Sofie von Otter mezzo-soprano
Claudio Abbado conducts Chamber Orchestra of Europe
00:00​ Der Vollmond strahlt auf Bergeshöhn romanze from Rosamunde D.797
03:45​ Die Forelle D.550
06:05​ Ellens Gesang II D.838
09:17​ Gretchen am Spinnrade D.118
12:49​ An Sylvia D.891
15:53​ Im Abendrot D.779
19:37​ Nacht und Träume D.827
23:27​ Gruppe aus dem Tartarus D.583
26:49​ Erlkönig D.328
31:04​ Geheimes D.719
33:11​ Balletmusik No 9 from Rosamunde D.797

maestrob
Posts: 10149
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:24 am

Len, I have that Schubert CD with Abbado/von Otter somewhere, but haven't heard it in years. It looks like this, right?

Image

To be totally honest with you, my voice was more operatic than suited to lieder, so I've not explored Schubert's oeuvre to the depths that others here have (especially Barney!). In fact, I am still more drawn to early twentieth century composers such as Debussy, Richard Strauss, Faure, Respighi, and, of course Mahler, as I find their music resonates with me better. Just a matter of personal taste, I guess.

So here are two examples of songs by Strauss (Kaufmann) and Debussy (Souzay) that are reference recordings for me:

Image

Image

As for Mahler, I would recommend anything that Mildred Miller recorded with Bruno Walter, or Dame Janet with Barbirolli. Oh, and let's not forget Fischer-Dieskau/Bernstein. Hermann Prey is more earthbound than Fischer-Dieskau in Mahler, but both are quite wonderful in their many and various recordings. Below is one of my most treasured LPs, never issued on CD, at least not yet:

Image

lennygoran
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:04 am

maestrob wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:24 am
Len, I have that Schubert CD with Abbado/von Otter somewhere, but haven't heard it in years. It looks like this, right?... In fact, I am still more drawn to early twentieth century composers such as Debussy, Richard Strauss, Faure, Respighi, and, of course Mahler, as I find their music resonates with me better. Just a matter of personal taste, I guess.So here are two examples of songs by Strauss (Kaufmann) and Debussy (Souzay) that are reference recordings for me...As for Mahler, I would recommend anything that Mildred Miller recorded with Bruno Walter, or Dame Janet with Barbirolli. Oh, and let's not forget Fischer-Dieskau/Bernstein. Hermann Prey is more earthbound than Fischer-Dieskau in Mahler, but both are quite wonderful in their many and various recordings. Below is one of my most treasured LPs, never issued on CD, at least not yet
Brian thanks-I'm gonna dig into some of these via you tube-Strauss would be first on my list. That album with Abbado/von Otter you speak of shows a photo that sure looks like what I saw on youtube. I think I'm gonna like lieder played with a bigger orchestra like this one was-more like opera to me than just having a piano and singer but maybe I'll find something I like done that way too-the one of Schubert done on the TV show with the soprano caught my attention but I don't remember the name of it. One thing for sure I want to know the words-fortunately with the tablet I can get the translations as I listen on the TV. Regards, Len

lennygoran
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:11 am

maestrob wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:24 am
Strauss (Kaufmann)
Brian I just went to youtube and the album is right there-the link I provide shows all the lieder-nearly 30 numbers-wonder if a few are considered Strauss's absolute best-looks like I have alot of translations I'll need-too bad they don't seem to have lieder sung with captions coming across the screen. Regards, Len

maestrob
Posts: 10149
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:22 am

lennygoran wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:11 am
maestrob wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:24 am
Strauss (Kaufmann)
Brian I just went to youtube and the album is right there-the link I provide shows all the lieder-nearly 30 numbers-wonder if a few are considered Strauss's absolute best-looks like I have alot of translations I'll need-too bad they don't seem to have lieder sung with captions coming across the screen. Regards, Len
Len, that CD features some of the most ravishing singing I've ever heard from Kaufmann. Don't know how to find translations, but I would recommend that you just immerse yourself in the beauty of the music for now if you can. :wink:

lennygoran
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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:47 am

maestrob wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:22 am
Don't know how to find translations, but I would recommend that you just immerse yourself in the beauty of the music for now if you can. 😉
Brian a followup-while I was immersing myself I went looking for translations-found all but 1. Regards, Len


Zueignung, Op. 10 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
2
1:19
Dedication
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Yes, dear soul, you know
That I’m in torment far from you,
Love makes hearts sick –
Be thanked.
Once, revelling in freedom,
I held The amethyst cup aloft
And you blessed that draught –
Be thanked.
And you banished the evil spirits,
Till I, as never before,
Holy, sank holy upon your heart –
Be thanked.

Now playing
Nichts, Op. 10 No. 2
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
Nothing
English Translation © Richard Stokes
You say I should name
My queen in the realm of song!
Fools that you are, I know
Her least of all of you.
Ask me the colour of her eyes,
Ask me about the sound of her voice,
Ask me about her walk, her dancing, her bearing,
Ah! what do I know of all that.
Is not the sun the source
Of all life, of all light,
And what do we know about it,
I and you and everyone?—nothing.



Now playing
Die Nacht, Op. 10 No. 3
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
4
3:16
Night
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Night steps from the woods,
Slips softly from the trees,
Gazes about her in a wide arc,
Now beware!
All the lights of this world,
All the flowers, all the colours
She extinguishes and steals the sheaves
From the field.
She takes all that is fair,
Takes the silver from the stream,
Takes from the cathedral’s copper roof
The gold.
The bush stands plundered:
Draw closer, soul to soul,
Ah the night, I fear, will steal
You too from me.

Now playing
Wer hat's getan, Op. 10 No. 6 bis
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
5
4:49
couldn't find lyrics or english for this

Now playing
Befreit, Op. 39 No. 4
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
6
2:54Released
English Translation © Richard Stokes
You will not weep. Gently, gently
you will smile; and as before a journey
I shall return your gaze and kiss.
You have cared for the room we love!
I have widened these four walls for you into a world –
O happiness!
Then ardently you will seize my hands
and you will leave me your soul,
leave me to care for our children.
You gave your whole life to me,
I shall give it back to them –
O happiness!
It will be very soon, we both know it,
we have released each other from suffering,
so I returned you to the world.
Then you’ll appear to me only in dreams,
and you will bless me and weep with me –
O happiness!

Now playing
Allerseelen, Op. 10 No. 8
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
7
3:25
All Souls' Day
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Set on the table the fragrant mignonettes,
Bring in the last red asters,
And let us talk of love again
As once in May.
Give me your hand to press in secret,
And if people see, I do not care,
Give me but one of your sweet glances
As once in May.
Each grave today has flowers and is fragrant,
One day each year is devoted to the dead;
Come to my heart and so be mine again,
As once in May.

Now playing
Ruhe, meine Seele, Op. 27 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
8
2:11
Rest, my soul!
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Not even
A soft breeze stirs,
In gentle sleep
The wood rests;
Through the leaves'
Dark veil
Bright sunshine
Steals.
Rest, rest,
My soul,
Your storms
Were wild
You raged and
You quivered,
Like the breakers,
When they surge!
These times
Are violent,
Cause heart and
Mind distress—
Rest, rest,
My soul,
And forget
What threatens you!

Now playing
Cäcilie, Op. 27 No. 2
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
9
3:05
Cecily
English Translation © Richard Stokes
If you knew
What it is to dream
Of burning kisses,
Of walking and resting
With one’s love,
Gazing at each other
And caressing and talking –
If you knew,
Your heart would turn to me.
If you knew
What it is to worry
On lonely nights
In the frightening storm,
With no soft voice
To comfort
The struggle-weary soul –
If you knew,
You would come to me.
If you knew
What it is to live
Enveloped in God’s
World-creating breath,
To soar upwards,
Borne on light
To blessed heights –
If you knew,
You would live with me.

Now playing
Heimliche Aufforderung, Op. 27 No. 3
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
10
3:31
Secret invitation
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Come, raise to your lips
the sparkling goblet,
And drink at this joyful feast
your heart to health.
And when you raise it, give
me a secret sign,
Then I shall smile, and drink
as quietly as you ...
And quietly like me, look
around at the hordes
Of drunken gossips—do not
despise them too much.
No, raise the glittering goblet,
filled with wine,
And let them be happy
at the noisy feast.
But once you have savoured the meal,
quenched your thirst,
Leave the loud company
of happy revellers,
And come out into the garden
to the rose-bush,—
There I shall wait for you
as I’ve always done.
And I shall sink on your breast,
before you could hope,
And drink your kisses,
as often before,
And twine in your hair
the glorious rose—
Ah! come, O wondrous,
longed-for night!

Now playing
Morgen!, Op. 27 No. 4
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
11
2:49
Tomorrow!
English Translation © Richard Stokes
And tomorrow the sun will shine again
And on the path that I shall take,
It will unite us, happy ones, again,
Amid this same sun-breathing earth ...
And to the shore, broad, blue-waved,
We shall quietly and slowly descend,
Speechless we shall gaze into each other’s eyes,
And the speechless silence of bliss shall fall on us ...

Now playing
Freundliche Vision, Op. 48 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
12
2:15
A pleasant vision
English Translation © Richard Stokes
I did not dream it in my sleep,
In broad daylight I saw it fair before me:
A meadow full of daisies;
A white house deep in green bushes;
Statues of gods gleaming from the foliage.
And I walk with one who loves me,
My heart at peace, into the coolness
Of this white house, into the peace,
Brimming with beauty, that awaits our coming.

Now playing
Ich liebe dich, Op. 37 No. 2
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
13
1:03
Ich liebe dich
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Four noble horses
Draw our carriage,
We live in the castle
Proud and content.
The rays of dawn
And the lightning at night,
All that they shine on
Belongs to us.
And though you roam the land,
Abandoned and banished:
I'll walk through the streets with you
In poverty and shame!
Our hands will bleed,
Our feet be sore,
Four pitiless walls,
Not a dog to know us.
When your silver-edged coffin
Stands at the altar,
They must lay me
Beside you on the beer.
Whether you die on the heath
Or those in distress,
I'll draw my dagger
And join you in death!

Now playing
All mein Gedanken…, Op. 21 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
14
1:52
All my thoughts
English Translation © Richard Stokes
All my thoughts, my heart and my mind,
Wander to where my beloved is.
They go on their way despite wall and gate,
No bolt, no ditch can stop them,
Go high in the air like little birds,
Needing no bridge over water or chasm,
They find the town and they find the house,
Find her window among all the others,
And knock and call: 'Open up, let us in,
We come from your sweetheart who sends his love. '

Now playing
Du meines Herzens Krönelein, Op. 21 No. 2
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
15
1:45
You, my heart's coronet
English Translation © Richard Stokes
You, my heart’s coronet, you are of pure gold,
When others stand beside you, you are more lovely still.
Others love to appear clever, you are so gentle and quiet;
That every heart delights in you, is your fortune not your will.
Others seek love and favours with a thousand false words,
You, without artifice of mind or eye, are esteemed in every place,
You are like the rose in the forest, knowing nothing of its flowers,
Yet rejoicing the heart of every passer-by.

Now playing
Ach Lieb, ich muss nun scheiden!, Op. 21 No. 3
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
16
2:13
Ah, my love, I must now leave
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Ah, my love, I must now leave, go over hill and dale,
The alders and willows join together in weeping
So often they saw us stroll together by the brook,
To see one without the other passes their understanding.
The alders and willows weep tears of grief,
Just think of the heartfelt sorrow we must both suffer.

Now playing
Ach weh mir unglückhaftem Mann, Op. 21 No. 4
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
17
2:28
Ah, unhappy man that I am
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Ah, unhappy man that I am to have neither property nor money,
Else I’d harness four white horses and drive to you at a canter.
I’d deck them out with little bells for you to hear from afar,
I’d place a huge bouquet of roses on my left side,
And when I reached your little house, I’d crack my whip,
You’d lean out of the window and ask: ‘What do you want?
Why the huge bouquet of roses, why the carriage and horses?’
‘It’s you I want’, I’d cry, ‘come down!’ And there would be no more questions
‘Take one look at her, mother, father, and kiss her quickly goodbye,
For I can’t wait long, my horses wouldn’t allow it.'

Now playing
Die Frauen sind oft fromm und still, Op. 21 No. 5
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
18
2:59
Women are often devout and quiet
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Women are often devout and quiet, when we rage without control,
And when a woman needs strength, she looks silently toward heaven.
Their power and strength are slight, a breath of wind can break them,
Yet it’s a special sign of strength, when they look up to heaven.
I have often looked up also, when my mother looked up to heaven,
I only saw grey clouds scudding and blue sky above,
But she, when she looked down again, was filled with strength and hope,
I think that women, now and then, can still see heaven open wide.

Now playing
Traum durch die Dämmerung, Op. 29 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
19
2:42
Dream into dusk
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Broad meadows in grey dusk;
The sun has set, the stars come out,
I go now to the loveliest woman,
Far across meadows in grey dusk,
Deep into the jasmine grove.
Through grey dusk into the land of love;
I do not go fast, I do not hurry;
I am drawn by a soft velvet ribbon
Through grey dusk into the land of love,
Into a gentle blue light.

Now playing
Nachtgang, Op. 29 No. 3
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
20
1:41
A walk at night
English Translation © Richard Stokes
We walked through the gentle silent night, your arm
in mine, your eyes gazing into mine; the moon shed
silver light over your face; as though on gold
your fair head lay, and you seemed to me
like a saint: gentle, gentle and great, with a brimming soul,
holy and pure like the dear sun. And a pressing
warmth welled into my eyes, like impending tears.
I held you closer and kissed you — kissed you
so gently — my soul wept.

Now playing
Wozu noch, Mädchen, Op. 19 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
21
1:29
What is the purpose, my sweet
English Translation © Richard Stokes
What is the purpose, my sweet,
Of trying to deceive me?
Bid your new bliss a joyful welcome
And say openly that you’re in love!
The quickened stirring of your breast,
The way your blushes come and go,
Have long since revealed your secret
To fountains and flower-sprites.
The waves murmur it in caverns,
The evening breezes whisper it,
Wherever you go, you hear them mocking:
We’ve known it a long time, child!

Now playing
Breit' über mein Haupt, Op. 19 No. 2
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
22
2:07
Unbind your black hair
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Unbind your black hair right over my head,
Incline to me your face!
Then clearly and brightly into my soul
The light of your eyes will stream.
I want neither the glory of the sun above
Nor the gleaming garland of stars,
All I want are your black tresses
And the radiance of your eyes.

Now playing
Schön sind, doch kalt die Himmelsterne, Op. 19 No. 3
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
23
1:43
Beautiful but cold are the stars of heaven
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Beautiful but cold are the stars of heaven,
Meagre the gifts that they bestow;
For just one of your glances
I’d gladly forego their golden gleam!
Apart, so that we suffer without end,
They only bring throughout the year
The autumn with its sheaves of corn
And springtime’s splendid flowering.
But your eyes, ah, a whole year’s blessing
Cascades abundantly from them
On flowers and fruit like incessant gentle rain,
Blossom and fruit together.

Now playing
Wie sollten wir geheim sie halten, Op. 19 No. 4
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
24
2:45
How could we keep it secret
English Translation © Richard Stokes
How could we keep it secret,
This bliss with which we’re filled?
No, into its deepest recesses
Our hearts must be revealed to all!
When two souls have fallen in love,
Nature’s filled with exultation,
And daylight lingers on wood and meadow
In longer hours of rapture.
Even the oak tree’s rotten trunk,
That has survived a thousand years,
Sends fresh flaming green to its crown
And rustles with the thrill of youth.
The buds, seeing the lovers’ bliss,
Flower more brightly and fragrantly,
And the brooks babble more sweetly,
And May gleams and blooms more lavishly.

Now playing
Hoffen und wieder verzagen, Op. 19 No. 5
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
25
2:48
Hoping and then despairing
English Translation © Richard Stokes
Hoping and then despairing,
Waiting and listening by her balcony,
In case, borne by the wind,
A sound from her might reach me,
Thus for many months now
Day has succeeded day.
Late in the evening, when ever more silently
Night settles over the desolate land,
My weary eyelids sink
And I sleep for a short while;
From dreams of her
I am jolted awake to fresh grief.
But I beseech you, heaven:
Do not steal my dearest treasure,
This enchanting pain
That I’ve nourished with my heart’s blood!
May it blaze ever higher, this fire
In which I blissfully perish!

Now playing
Mein Herz ist stumm, Op. 19 No. 6
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
26
1:58
My heart is silent
English Translation © Richard Stokes
My heart is silent, my heart is cold,
Frozen in the winter’s ice;
Only occasionally in its depths
Does it flutter, and quiver and gently stir.
It seems then as if a gentle thaw
Breaks the surface of the frost;
Through burgeoning wood and blossoming mead
The brooklets once more murmur.
And the sound of horns, borne from leaf to leaf
By the winds of spring,
Rising from ravines, falls faintly on my ear,
Like a call from blissful days.
Yet my ageing heart will not be young again,
The echo of the dying sound
Comes from ever further away,
And all once more is frozen.

Now playing
Ich trage meine Minne, Op. 32 No. 1
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
27
3:31
I bear my love
English Translation © Richard Stokes
I bear my love
In silent bliss
About with me
In heart and mind.
Yes, that I have found you,
Sweet child,
Will cheer me all
My allotted days.
Though the sky be dim,
And the night pitch-black,
My love shines brightly
In golden splendour.
And though the world lies and sins,
And it hurts to see it so—
The bad world must be blinded
By your snowy innocence.

Now playing
Sehnsucht, Op. 32 No. 2
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
28
2:16
Longing
English Translation © Richard Stokes
I walked along the lonely road,
As I’m wont to do each day alone.
The heath is silent, not a soul in the fields,
Merely the wind in the hedge before me.
The road stretches far ahead.
My heart yearned for you, you alone.
And were you to come, it would be a miracle,
I should bow down before you: I love you.
And a single glance from you as we met
Would be my life’s happiest moment.
And were you to gaze at me coldly,
I’d defy you, my girl: I love you.
But if your lovely eyes smile in welcome,
Like a sun in my dark night,
I should quickly embrace your sweet heart
And gently whisper: I love you.


Now playing
Schlechtes Wetter, Op. 69 No. 5
Helmut Deutsch - Topic
Dreadful Weather
English Translation © Richard Stokes
This is dreadful weather,
It’s raining and blowing and snowing;
I sit at my window and stare
Out into the darkness.
One solitary light flickers out there,
Moving slowly along;
A little old woman with a lantern
Totters across the street.
I fancy it’s flour and eggs
And butter she’s been buying;
She’s going to bake a cake
For her big little daughter.
She lolls at home in the armchair,
Blinking sleepily into the light;
Her golden curls tumble down
Over his sweet face.

maestrob
Posts: 10149
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:14 pm

Magnificent, Len! You do know how to Google, don't you! :wink:

Of course I have the CD booklet.......

lennygoran
Posts: 16773
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pm

maestrob wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:14 pm
Magnificent, Len! You do know how to Google, don't you! 😉

Of course I have the CD booklet.......
Brian send it over! Regards, Len [fleeing] :lol: :lol: :lol:

barney
Posts: 5451
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:14 pm

lennygoran wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:04 am
maestrob wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:24 am
Len, I have that Schubert CD with Abbado/von Otter somewhere, but haven't heard it in years. It looks like this, right?... In fact, I am still more drawn to early twentieth century composers such as Debussy, Richard Strauss, Faure, Respighi, and, of course Mahler, as I find their music resonates with me better. Just a matter of personal taste, I guess.So here are two examples of songs by Strauss (Kaufmann) and Debussy (Souzay) that are reference recordings for me...As for Mahler, I would recommend anything that Mildred Miller recorded with Bruno Walter, or Dame Janet with Barbirolli. Oh, and let's not forget Fischer-Dieskau/Bernstein. Hermann Prey is more earthbound than Fischer-Dieskau in Mahler, but both are quite wonderful in their many and various recordings. Below is one of my most treasured LPs, never issued on CD, at least not yet
Brian thanks-I'm gonna dig into some of these via you tube-Strauss would be first on my list. That album with Abbado/von Otter you speak of shows a photo that sure looks like what I saw on youtube. I think I'm gonna like lieder played with a bigger orchestra like this one was-more like opera to me than just having a piano and singer but maybe I'll find something I like done that way too-the one of Schubert done on the TV show with the soprano caught my attention but I don't remember the name of it. One thing for sure I want to know the words-fortunately with the tablet I can get the translations as I listen on the TV. Regards, Len
Nothing against song cycles for singer and orchestra. What finer music could there be than Mahler's song cycles, or the Four Last Songs, or even Wesendonck lieder. Not so keen on Schubert lieder transcribed for orchestra. One of Schubert's amazing achievements is the clarity and intimacy between piano and voice - a true partnership in which the piano has an equal role and is not just providing background accompaniment. This in my view is lost in the transcriptions. I have the Von Otter/Quasthof CD too, but don't return to it often. (In fairness, I don't return to many often now, because I have too many CDs, too many yet unplayed.)
To quote Brian, YMMV. :D

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:19 pm

Re texts for songs, it IS important. Otherwise you can't fully appreciate the brilliance of the writing for piano by Schubert, how incredibly responsive he is to the text.
That said, to my mind, a lot of the poetry Schubert sets to music is very simplistic and not particularly interesting, especially compared with the finest poets in English. That may be because, although I learned German, I am not fluent and rely on English translations, or it may be a cultural preference.
I am listening as I write to your link to the Fischer-Dieskau/Brendel Winterreise, and, as always, I am simply knocked out by the glorious writing, singing and playing. To me, this is the greatest song cycle ever written. Over 50 years I must have listened to it at least 500 times. It's one of my favourite works for A/B comparisons.
Len, you must listen to the Fischer-Dieskau/Gerald Moore account (actually, there's more than one), which is usually accounted the finest of all.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:30 am

barney wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:19 pm
Len, you must listen to the Fischer-Dieskau/Gerald Moore account (actually, there's more than one), which is usually accounted the finest of all.
Barney thanks-I'll try to get to it-meanwhile I found a you tube where someone is singing lieder and the captions are flashed across the screen. Regards, Len

Jared Ice - Liederkreis von Eichendorf Op 39 - Full Concert with Subtitles - Schumann

Jared Ice sings the complete "Liederkreis Op. 39" with music by Robert Schumann and words by Joseph Freiherr von Eichendorff.

Concert is from a live guest artist recital at Eastern New Mexico University

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:45 am

barney wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:19 pm
Re texts for songs, it IS important. Otherwise you can't fully appreciate the brilliance of the writing for piano by Schubert, how incredibly responsive he is to the text.
That said, to my mind, a lot of the poetry Schubert sets to music is very simplistic and not particularly interesting, especially compared with the finest poets in English. That may be because, although I learned German, I am not fluent and rely on English translations, or it may be a cultural preference.
I am listening as I write to your link to the Fischer-Dieskau/Brendel Winterreise, and, as always, I am simply knocked out by the glorious writing, singing and playing. To me, this is the greatest song cycle ever written. Over 50 years I must have listened to it at least 500 times. It's one of my favourite works for A/B comparisons.
Len, you must listen to the Fischer-Dieskau/Gerald Moore account (actually, there's more than one), which is usually accounted the finest of all.
Oh, yes, I agree with you here 100%. Still, I find it enjoyable to luxuriate in the sound of a full orchestra once in a while.

I'm also quite fond of Liszt's many fine piano arrangements/transcriptions of Schubert's more popular songs in a CD I have by Idil Biret (below). Murray Perahia recorded some of them very well, and Leslie Howard has more recently made three volumes of these uplifting and sometimes ferociously demanding pieces.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:42 pm

Indeed, Brian. I too enjoy piano transcriptions, and not just by Liszt, although he converted the most. Godowsky's and Busoni's are worth hearing.
I have the Howard performances too. Also Perahia, Bolet, Kissin and even Godowsky himself, among many others. The works are often recorded, though not complete.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:12 pm

barney wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:42 pm
Indeed, Brian. I too enjoy piano transcriptions, and not just by Liszt, although he converted the most. Godowsky's and Busoni's are worth hearing.
I have the Howard performances too. Also Perahia, Bolet, Kissin and even Godowsky himself, among many others. The works are often recorded, though not complete.
Indeed. I forgot to mention Bolet's magical CD from Decca, which I have in the box of his complete Liszt recordings for that label.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:01 am

barney wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:19 pm
Len, you must listen to the Fischer-Dieskau/Gerald Moore account (actually, there's more than one), which is usually accounted the finest of all.
Barney a followup--I seemed to like the lieder done with an orchestra and went looking. I had gone to you tube to see what I could find on listening to lieder done with an orchestra and found things like this:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +orchestra

Then I found this article from Bachtrack and it was interesting for me. Regards, Len


Take me to your Lieder: the delicate art of the song recital
By Jenny Camilleri, 14 January 2016

“Lieder recitals are slowly becoming epidemic. Everything that sings and sounds, and doesn’t sound, wants to warble and crow from the platform.” Hugo Wolf, the great late Romantic Lieder composer, wrote this in 1887, in his capacity as music critic. The song recital, which had sprung up in the middle of the 19th century, was then a recent phenomenon. In 1856 baritone Julius Stockhausen became the first singer to give a complete public performance of Schubert’s song cycle Die schöne Müllerin (The Lovely Maid of the Mill). Before then, Lieder recitals were private affairs in middle-class drawing rooms, the most famous being the Viennese Schubertiades during which Schubert’s songs were first heard. As was customary, Stockhausen performed with an assisting artist, such as a pianist soloist. At the time Wolf expressed his mild vexation at the proliferation of Lieder evenings, the tenor Gustav Walter had just popularised the Lieder recital as we know it – a programme of song, usually performed by a soloist accompanied by a pianist.


Of all vocal classical formats, song recitals seem to be the least popular. While venues with international cachet, such as Wigmore Hall, retain their devoted audiences, there is concern about the future of this seemingly genteel formula, with its old-lace, highbrow aura. It certainly seems to get the least publicity. With arts coverage dwindling in print media, Lieder regularly lose out to opera and choral works, unless the poster boasts a big name or two. One possible reason is that it is not easy to write a meaty recital review while avoiding checking off songs as in a “to do” list. Many classical singing fans have reservations about the understated nature of Lieder. How can one singer with piano accompaniment set the pulse racing? And what about having to take in reams of foreign language text? I would argue that the very characteristics that can make concertgoers shy away from song recitals are their greatest strengths. Given the right performers, a song recital can be as memorable as a night at the opera or the symphony.

Before we go any further, let us demystify the jargon. “Lieder” is the German word for “songs” and refers to poems set to music, or “art songs”. The French call them "mélodies”, as opposed to “chansons”, which are popular or folk songs. Strictly speaking, a Lieder recital is a programme of art songs in German, but programmes are frequently multilingual, and “Lieder” also loosely refers to art songs in general. People have always composed songs – to celebrate, tell stories, mourn, woo, console and entertain. Art songs are simply classical music’s contribution to this sea of sung expression. Mozart and Beethoven wrote the first Lieder in the established repertoire. In the 19th century, Franz Schubert elevated the art song to its artistic peak with his settings of Romantic poems. Schubert also made the accompanying pianist the singer’s equal partner. In his songs and those of his successors the pianist often has as much to say as the vocalist. Stringed together, a group of songs can form a poetic and musical narrative, called a song cycle. Beethoven’s An die ferne Geliebte (To the distant beloved) is an early example. When Schubert set poems by Wilhelm Müller into that dark night of the soul, Winterreise (Winter Journey), he set up the biggest song cycle challenge a singer can ever take up. Schumann, Brahms and Wolf also wrote Lieder of astounding emotional depth and sophistication. Later on came songs scored for full orchestra, such as those by Gustav Mahler, but we are concentrating on songs for voice and piano. The art song also flourished outside Austria and Germany and the repertoire is now rich with songs in French, Russian, Spanish, English and other languages.

So what makes art songs so wonderful? First of all, the words. Although there are arrangements of traditional folk songs, many songs are inspired by some of the best lines ever written. Petrarch, Shakespeare, Goethe and Baudelaire have all been given the art song treatment. Secondly, some of the most enchanting classical melodies are art songs. Even if you are not an aficionado, you will probably recognise Mendelssohn’s On Wings of Song or Leoncavallo’s Mattinata (Morning). If you love great poetry and great music, art songs are for you. Another plus is that during song recitals you get to observe fantastic pianists up-close. The best accompanists perform a kind of illusionist act, slipping in and out of the limelight as necessary, and the most fascinating singer-pianist collaborations resemble a stationary, tightly choreographed dance. Finally, art songs are as varied as life itself. The versatility of moods, musical styles and cultural savours mean that there are songs for everyone at any time. Themes range from silly to profound, and many songs can be enjoyed on several levels, from straightforward melodic satisfaction to poignant existential resonance.

The song recital is the simplest and cheapest form of vocal concert to organise, but artistically the most exigent. The intimate set-up enables performers to communicate with subtle shading that is not possible elsewhere. Emotional openness and genuineness are obligatory. Not every singer is a Lieder singer. Excellent opera singers can lack the required fine interpretative brush. In certain narrative songs, such as Schubert’s gothic Erlköning (The Erlking), singers need to breathe life into different characters with only a couple of lines. There are no costumes and scenery to help and no orchestral colours to create atmosphere – the voice must do it all. Masterful technique is a requirement, because every crackle and pop are exposed. However, good singing and a beautiful voice are not enough. For a wholly worthwhile experience the audience needs to be stirred by the singer’s expressive powers. The best song interpreters draw us with their intensity, allowing us a glimpse into their psyche through their appropriation of the text. The very greatest peel back fresh layers of meaning when tackling familiar works. Paradoxically, song recitals are economically ideal for singers just starting out, but they may not yet have the artistic maturity to carry a full-length programme. On the other hand, great recitalists at the height of their popularity often perform in large venues where the level of intimacy is diminished. Fortunately, the wellspring of art songs is so deep that there are songs to suit every stage of artistic ripeness and voice type. Unlike many opera roles, art songs can be transposed up or down to fit a singer’s vocal range. Even relatively inexperienced singers can give a successful song recitals, given that they have a talent for it and make the right programme choices.

Relatively cheap to organise, wide-ranging and boasting the best texts and some of the best tunes in the business – you would think these qualities would be enough to secure the popularity of song recitals. At a time when entertainment choices are legion and classical venues constantly re-assess their strategies for retaining and replenishing audiences, it is essential that art songs are not forgotten in promotional and educational programmes. The fact that the genre continues to thrive in German-speaking countries, which served as the Lieder incubator, is probably related to the fact that their school choirs continue to sink their teeth into assorted arrangements of Schubert’s Der Lindenbaum (The Linden Tree).

Of course, once you entice new visitors into the recital hall, you need to convince them to return. Besides the quality of the performance, recitalists and organisers should keep the following in mind:

Variety

Both seasons and concerts need to be varied. Although Schubert’s 600 songs offer enough diversity for a whole season, audiences love to hear less obvious repertoire. For example, both Georges Bizet and Frederick Delius wrote songs for single voice and piano. Contemporary composers keep adding to the catalogue. Whether a programme is single-composer, multi-composer or theme-driven, the selections should vary in rhythm and spirit. A whole evening of mournful songs at a funereal pace, however brilliantly performed, will send everyone away in a state of depression. Some of the most satisfying recitals connect songs and composers by poet, location, or a timeline. Invariably, something that all good recitals have in common is that they take the listener on a journey, and a journey without changing scenery is monotonous. One of my most memorable recital evenings featured soprano Anna Prohaska. Her songs were all themed around Ophelia, from Shakespeare’s Hamlet, in a kaleidoscopic array of languages and musical idioms. The evening flew by. New variations on the standard format keep the song recital fresh and possibly reel in audiences from other art forms. These include staged song cycles, singing and film, recital and lecture pairings, or, going back to the times of Julius Stockhausen, a mix of Lieder and chamber music.

Off book, if possible

A score is a barrier, however flimsy, between singer and audience. Many song recitals are one-off performances and Lieder tours in multiple cities are only viable for the most successful performers. It might not be reasonable to expect a singer to learn a whole programme by heart for a single recital, but singers communicate much more freely without a score. They should try to memorise most of the material.

Going native

The art song canon is world heritage and any performer who masters it, linguistically and musically, can lay claim to it. However, less familiar songs in atypical languages can be equally interesting, especially when sung by native speakers. In a genre where the words are crucial, native speaker cadence and style are to be treasured. It is very likely that songs from a singer’s homeland will pulse with very personal meaning. Singers from countries with unusual repertoire, give us your native songs, composers and poets!

Talk Is Not For Everyone

These days it is increasingly probable that a singer will address the audience between numbers. This creates an informal rapport, but is strictly for performers with an effortless stage manner. Sharing something personal about a composition, if done well, can enhance the audience’s receptivity. Ultimately, though, the song is the message and a well-chosen programme should not need much elucidation.

Translate!

Venues should provide free, or very cheap, text translations in the local language/s. Legible print is a must. Texts and translations should be checked for errors and the translator credited. I have seen uncredited translations lifted verbatim from The LiederNet Archive, typos included. Once a translator stood up during the break to inform us that the organisers had forgotten to put his name in the programme.

Never forget the newbies

Recital organisers should always assume the audience includes first-time concertgoers. Instructions, written or announced, should summarise conventions about clapping, turning programme pages, and so on. Leaving first-timers at the mercy of dagger-eyed recital pros will not make them feel like repeating the experience.

If you are not that familiar with song recitals and are curious to explore, here are some recommendations:

Buy a ticket

Unless they are megastar events, song recitals tend to be cheaper than other vocal concerts. It should be easy to find an affordable recital nearby. Many young singers and pianists perform in churches and community centres. Look for a small-to-medium-sized venue. Up-close and personal is what song recitals are all about.

Prepare only if you enjoy it

A Lieder recital is entertainment, not a lit crit exam. You do not have to put in hours of homework. If you feel like reading ahead, it will enrich your listening experience. For example, in Schubert’s Gretchen am Spinnrade (Gretchen at the Spinning Wheel), the piano mimics the whirring of the wheel, as well as Gretchen’s obsessive thoughts. Also, the rising phrase ending in her cry on “Kuss” indicates that she is dreaming of more than just kissing Faust, with whom she is infatuated. Your admiration for Schubert will increase when you learn that he composed this gem when he was just seventeen years old. However, you do not need to know more than what the words mean. A good singer and pianist will convey the song’s urgency and the music will work its subliminal magic. There are many entry points to appreciating art songs. On repeated listening, the immortal ones will reveal their complexity in new and surprising ways.

Take note of the rules, then relax

This is the behaviour code I think recital venues should make clear at each concert:

1. Songs are usually grouped in sets, as indicated in the programme. Clap at the end of the set, not after each individual song.

2. Suppress coughing and sneezing until the last song in a group. During long song cycles, suppression needs to take on Olympian dimensions. Violent hacking between songs kill whatever mood the artists are trying to create. You can cough to your heart’s content after Winterreise is over. (By the way, the convention is that no encores are given after this particular song cycle. It is assumed that once you climb Everest, anything else will feel like an anticlimactic hillock.)

3. Do not turn programme pages during songs. The rustling is distracting to performers and fellow patrons alike.

4. Obviously, check that your phone is switched off. If you are lucky enough to be hearing the exceptional Matthias Goerne, check twice. He is known to send out phone-flashing culprits. I have seen him do it – it is worse than an irate headmaster telling you off during school assembly.

Read, then look up and listen

Get to the venue in time to read texts and translations before the concert starts. Do not follow the text on the page during the performance. Fix your attention on the performers, or you will miss much of what they transmit across the stage. Glance at the text briefly before each song to refresh your memory about its central idea. You do not need to know the exact meaning of each word, but you do need to be receptive to the frame of mind the song should put you in.

Choose your Lieder

Art songs come in a myriad flavours. Try listening to different composers and singers to discover what you like best. If your favourite opera singers also do art songs, start by exploring those. Maybe passionate Russian songs are your thing, or Italian songs, many of which have the instant appeal of popular arias. Experienced fans can be adamant about the “best” and “greatest” recordings and interpreters. If you like a song or a voice, do not let any dismissive comments dampen your enjoyment. Record reviews will point you to many fantastic recordings, but you are the only one who can determine whether a song or a singer speaks to you. Referring to interpreter par excellence Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone Thomas Quasthoff, himself a great Lieder singer, once exclaimed during a discussion: “Not Fischer-Dieskau again! Why do we always have to bring him up?” Naturally, Quasthoff was not questioning Fischer-Dieskau’s place in the Lieder pantheon, but pointing out there is more than one way to skin a lieder-loving cat.

Hum/sing your favourites around the house

If you catch yourself doing this, congratulations! You are now a bona fide Lieder fan.


https://bachtrack.com/take-me-to-your-l ... nuary-2016

maestrob
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:02 am

That's a fine article, Len. Each set of songs given in a recital is meant to inspire a certain mood, so applauding after the set is completed is indeed appropriate, just as it would be with a set of Rachmaninov preludes.

I've been to Winterreise performances, and the stillness in the hall while the cycle unfolds is absolutely mesmerizing in a good performance. The 92nd Street Y and Merkin Hall here in Manhattan are ideal locations for that sort of thing, as are Weill Hall and Zankel Hall in Carnegie Hall.

I've been to song recitals in the main auditorium in Carnegie Hall, but they loose their sense of intimacy there. Piano recitals work fine, though.

One of the best recitals I ever attended was the debut recital of my wife's voice teacher in Merkin Hall, Iris Hiskey, that I was lucky enough to record with her permission. I still have the open reel tape on my shelves. Iris was a specialist in contemporary music then, and she had recently premiered two Phillip Glass operas, Einstein on the Beach at the MET, and Satyagraha in the Netherlands and at BAM. Glass wrote a beautiful set of songs for her debut, and other well-known composers were there as well, among them Schwantner and Richard Hundley, IIRC. Her pianist (who also played in Riverside church for our wedding, where Iris sang a Schubert Song) was Chris Berg, who nailed the sometimes difficult music involved without forgetting its beauty.

In fact, Merkin Hall had to open their balcony to accommodate all her audience.

Ah, memories!

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am

maestrob wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:02 am
Ah, memories!
Brian thanks for your thoughts on this-I'll add to memories discoveries-my search into lieder done with an orchestra led me to 2 new works for me-Rückert-Lieder (Songs after Rückert) and Das Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") Regards, Len

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKpIZffBk-s

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idRevTkIPts&t=3s

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:17 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am
maestrob wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:02 am
Ah, memories!
Brian thanks for your thoughts on this-I'll add to memories discoveries-my search into lieder done with an orchestra led me to 2 new works for me-Rückert-Lieder (Songs after Rückert) and Das Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") Regards, Len

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKpIZffBk-s

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idRevTkIPts&t=3s
These are, of course, by Mahler, who was a master orchestrator and knew exactly how to write vocal music right at the limits of the human voice. Das Lied takes about an hour, and my recommended recording is led by Bruno Walter with our own New York Philharmonic and is sung by the great German tenor Ernst Haefliger, with the great American mezzo Mildred Miller, whose voice is ideally expressive for Mahler's music. Walter recorded quite a bit with her, including the Brahms Alto Rhapsody. Hope you can find that somewhere as well. 😉

Das Lied is really hard to get right. Bernstein's recording with the Israel Philharmonic is hard to beat. I've had the DVD of that performance since it first was issued, and craved it on 12" Pioneer video discs when it was first made available in the 1970's, but couldn't afford a player then.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:59 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 am
maestrob wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:02 am
Ah, memories!
Brian thanks for your thoughts on this-I'll add to memories discoveries-my search into lieder done with an orchestra led me to 2 new works for me-Rückert-Lieder (Songs after Rückert) and Das Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") Regards, Len

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKpIZffBk-s

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idRevTkIPts&t=3s
Len, I didn't know you didn't know these wonderful works. Add Mahler's Das Knaben Wunderhorn, huge fun. Are you aware of Strauss's 4 Last Songs, a work of the profoundest genius? Strauss wrote dozens of lieder with orchestra. As Lance has observed, life is too short to absorb all the music we'd like - so you'd better get busy. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:11 pm

barney wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:59 am
Add Mahler's Das Knaben Wunderhorn, huge fun. Are you aware of Strauss's 4 Last Songs, a work of the profoundest genius?
Barney thanks, yes I know and like 4 Last Songs-don't know Das Knaben Wunderhorn. Regards,Len

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:15 pm

maestrob wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:17 am
Bernstein's recording with the Israel Philharmonic is hard to beat. I've had the DVD of that performance since it first was issued, and craved it on 12" Pioneer video discs when it was first made available in the 1970's, but couldn't afford a player then.
Brian thanks-the one I watched had Bernstein going wild-loved Christa Ludwig. I like works with words and orchestra. I would have liked what I saw more if they included the subtitles-still I was able to read the translations from Wikipedia-it wouldn't have hurt me if they included it right across the screen I was watching the work on. Regards, Len

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:15 pm
maestrob wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:17 am
Bernstein's recording with the Israel Philharmonic is hard to beat. I've had the DVD of that performance since it first was issued, and craved it on 12" Pioneer video discs when it was first made available in the 1970's, but couldn't afford a player then.
Brian thanks-the one I watched had Bernstein going wild-loved Christa Ludwig. I like works with words and orchestra. I would have liked what I saw more if they included the subtitles-still I was able to read the translations from Wikipedia-it wouldn't have hurt me if they included it right across the screen I was watching the work on. Regards, Len

That's interesting, Len. My DVD has subtitles available. I guess whoever uploaded the video to youtube didn't know how to put the subtitles in.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:48 am

maestrob wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:37 am

That's interesting, Len. My DVD has subtitles available. I guess whoever uploaded the video to youtube didn't know how to put the subtitles in.
Brian I think you're right-I don't think this is the first time I've encountered that situation-you go to settings and there's no place to click for captions. Still I was pretty happy to get to see this for free. I think Bernstein said this work was Mahler's best symphony! Regards, Len [fleeing] :lol:

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by Lance » Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:39 pm

Lieder is PRIME listening for me, almost on a daily basis. I prefer to hear this repertoire with vocalist and pianist UNLESS the work was written to be performed with orchestra (or both in some cases). I believe the piano line works better to pass the "message" of the text and better relates the "expression" of the two performing artists. Like Brian and others, I, too, have several recordings of, say Schubert's Lieder, with their orchestral transcriptions. Interesting, to be sure. But if one takes Der Erlkonig (Erl-King) as an example, the final chords expressing death, to my ears, the piano does a much better job of conveying that than the orchestra. So, again, it's each to his/her own. In another example, Berlioz's cycle, Le nuit d'ete (Summer Nights), comes to life with orchestra much more effectively than with just piano.

The problem with Lieder today is that I believe it is waning in public interest during especially the last decade, and even in Germany where fewer singers seem to be performing. I think of those years when Fischer-Dieskau lieder recitals (with Gerald Moore at the piano) were regularly released and have now become the Bible in interpretive ideas, or those of Janet Baker or myriad other singers of 20 years or more ago. Yes, there are some recitals yet (a new Schumann/Brahms with Garanca on DGG, for instance). We no longer have the Fischer-Dieskaus or Hotters, Ferriers, Schreiers, Flagstads, Preys, Wunderlichs or Ludwigs, etc., et al, who made Lieder an important part of their careers.
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:07 pm

Lance wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:39 pm
Lieder is PRIME listening for me, almost on a daily basis.
Lance thanks-yesterday while in the kitchen I wanted to hear 4 last songs and put it on a playlist with spotify-didn't know it would also put these other songs on the list-I had also put Brahms requiem on the playlist-there was so much of Elizabeth Schwarzkopf I never got to the requiem-don't get me wrong-I liked all the Strauss lushness but it was almost too much. Regards, Len :lol:

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Track Listing: 1. Vier letzte Lieder (Four Last Songs) Op posth: Fruhling (Hesse); 2. Vier letzte Lieder (Four Last Songs) Op. posth: September (Hesse); 3. Vier letzte Lieder (Four Last Songs) Op. posth: Beim Schlafengehen (Hesse); 4. Vier letzte Lieder (Four Last Songs) Op. posth: Im Abendrot (Eichendorff); 5. Muttertandelei, Op 43/2 (Burger); 6. Waldseligkeit, Op. 49/1 (Dehmel); 7. Zueignung, Op. 10/1 (von Gilm); 8. Freundliche Vision, Op. 48/1 (Bierbaum); 9. Die heiligen drei Konige, Op 56/6 (Heine); 10. Ruhe, meine Seele, Op. 27/1 (Henckell); 11. Meinem Kinde, Op. 37/3 (Falke); 12. Wiegenlied, Op. 41/1; 13. Morgen, Op. 27/4;; 14. Das Bachlein, Op 88/1 (Goethe); 15. Das Rosenband, Op. 36 No. 1 (Klopstock); 16. Winterweihe, Op. 48/4 (Henckell).

barney
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:53 am

That's one of the most celebrated accounts of the Four Last Songs, Len. She did another, also lovely, with Otto Ackermann and the Philharmonia. My other favourites, in no order, are Lisa Della Casa/VPO/ Bohm, Te Kanawa/LSO/Davis and VPO/Solti, several accounts by Gundula Janowitz, and Jessye Norman/Leipzig/Masur.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by lennygoran » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:51 am

barney wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:53 am
That's one of the most celebrated accounts of the Four Last Songs, Len. She did another, also lovely, with Otto Ackermann and the Philharmonia. My other favourites, in no order, are Lisa Della Casa/VPO/ Bohm, Te Kanawa/LSO/Davis and VPO/Solti, several accounts by Gundula Janowitz, and Jessye Norman/Leipzig/Masur.
Barney thanks-I remember John F loving Lisa Della Casa. Regards, Len

maestrob
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:00 am

barney wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:53 am
That's one of the most celebrated accounts of the Four Last Songs, Len. She did another, also lovely, with Otto Ackermann and the Philharmonia. My other favourites, in no order, are Lisa Della Casa/VPO/ Bohm, Te Kanawa/LSO/Davis and VPO/Solti, several accounts by Gundula Janowitz, and Jessye Norman/Leipzig/Masur.
Barney, you left out Lucia Popp/Tennstedt, which is IMHO a very fine account. I also prefer Dame Kiri with Solti, as I find Sir Andrew's conducting a bit less sympathetic than Solti's, but that's just me. I'm also not quite keen on Masur's conducting in that Jessye Norman release as I find he has trouble disciplining the flow of the music in spots, although some of the single songs are quite well done, notably the Wiegenlied, which has never been equaled in any other recording I've heard. Masur wasn't able to use a baton, which hampered him in many concerts I attended here in New York as well.

Here's the Popp/Tennstedt cover:

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Also, you (and others here) may want to check out my review of Schwarzkopf's live concert recording from 1962 that was just recently released of the Four Last Songs with Istvan Kertesz, which includes extensive comments about the Szell and Ackerman recordings, in which I outline in detail my serious objections to her vocalism in the 1960's:

http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopi ... gs#p510305

barney
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:28 pm

Thanks Brian
In all my years here I have never ventured beyond the music chatterbox and the corner pub! I'll check your link.
The reason I left out Lucia Popp is that I don't have that recording. My loss, obviously.

barney
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:34 pm

Thanks, Brian, for posting that review again. I don't usually go to that thread, so I missed it, but I found it fascinating. That Szell version is so admired, but clearly - as you say - it must have been carefully done for the microphone, using all Legge's and her artistry.
I had the pleasure of hearing Cecilia Bartoli in the concert hall a few years ago and was surprised at the relatively small size of her voice, gorgeous though it is and with ravishing technique. It was the smaller of Melbourne's main concert halls, and I was half way down the stalls. People at the back might have struggled at times.

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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by Lance » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:43 pm

Barney, for what it's worth, this was reissued on EMI 73560, which means it may still be available under the Warner logo.
barney wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:28 pm
Thanks Brian
In all my years here I have never ventured beyond the music chatterbox and the corner pub! I'll check your link.
The reason I left out Lucia Popp is that I don't have that recording. My loss, obviously.
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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maestrob
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:19 am

Lance wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:43 pm
Barney, for what it's worth, this was reissued on EMI 73560, which means it may still be available under the Warner logo.
barney wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:28 pm
Thanks Brian
In all my years here I have never ventured beyond the music chatterbox and the corner pub! I'll check your link.
The reason I left out Lucia Popp is that I don't have that recording. My loss, obviously.
Good news, Lance, thanks for pointing that out! I find that this is one of Tennstedt's great recordings, and it should not be missed.

maestrob
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by maestrob » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:41 am

barney wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:34 pm
Thanks, Brian, for posting that review again. I don't usually go to that thread, so I missed it, but I found it fascinating. That Szell version is so admired, but clearly - as you say - it must have been carefully done for the microphone, using all Legge's and her artistry.
I had the pleasure of hearing Cecilia Bartoli in the concert hall a few years ago and was surprised at the relatively small size of her voice, gorgeous though it is and with ravishing technique. It was the smaller of Melbourne's main concert halls, and I was half way down the stalls. People at the back might have struggled at times.
Bartoli had a brief run here at the MET, singing Suzanna in Mozart's Figaro when she was first making a splash on the international scene in the 1990's. Her performance was telecast (of course I taped it!) but I'm not sure if it was issued on video. Interestingly, we saw her live as well, and had no difficulty hearing her then in the MET's cavernous 3800-seat hall. She was sensational! We were, as I recall, sitting about in the middle of the orchestra. She also made an appearance in Carnegie Hall with Neville Marriner singing the Mozart "Exultate Jubilate" in a stunning concert. No problem hearing her there, either.

She hasn't sung here for about 15+ years. We do miss her.

Perhaps the lushness now apparent in her voice comes across better when properly miked, but I can find no fault with her technique at present. Her recent second Vivaldi CD is quite spectacular, as is her Viva Vivaldi DVD:

Image

barney
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Re: Getting More Serious on Lieder

Post by barney » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:18 pm

Fair enough, Brian. Perhaps she just had a "quieter" (boom boom, geddit? groan) night in Melbourne - rigours of international travel etc. Generally her technique is among the most flawless of modern singers, I agree - quite remarkable.

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