Brahms and Dvorak

[Belle]

My sister sent me a link this morning to your Radio WQXR and I opened it to listen. Dvorak 7th Symphony was being played; the first movement only. Link below. (I loved the presenter's comments afterwards. Just wonderful!)

It's been quite some time since I listened closely to any Dvorak apart from Symphony 9 Aus der Neuen Welt. Knowing that Dvorak was a friend of Brahms and visited him in Vienna, seeking his advice, I would have expected an influence. (Brahms told Antonin that he'd be a great symphonist if only he'd get those Czech folk melodies out of his work!!!) But, from the distance of time, I was literally bowled over by the similarity between Dvorak and Brahms, especially in this 7th Symphony. Brahms's 4 symphonies are rated higher than those 9 from Dvorak - not all of them of equal merit. I asked myself WHY Brahms, with his 4, was more masterful at symphonic writing than (the clearly-gorgeous and mellifluous) Dvorak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Qwkqy_DVo

Let's listen to a similar symphonic movement from Brahms as I'd like to unpack some of those differences: Symphony No. 3 Allegro. Both symphonies of Dvorak and Brahms have four movements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae4Nfh3PQUA

Dvorak has similar rhythms and dense, luscious melodic sound with plangent undertones as Brahms. Both composers use surging melodies, frenetic string passages, strong horn and brass emphasis, excellent developments of thematic material, lyricism in spades and complex counterpoint. So what's the difference? Why was Brahms the master and Dvorak his 'student'?

My feeble attempts; Brahms literally blows the socks off with his contrapuntal counter-melodies, his development of very small musical fragments so that they sound like Big Bertha's guns!! His cutting and chopping string section at the end of Symphony #3 finds me needing to be peeled from the ceiling or lifted up off my knees. There's drama there, plus energy, plus it's combative; yes. It almost seems like one part of the orchestra/melody/structure is 'fighting' against the other. All the drama unfolds within the structure between melodic fragments, overlaid or used as counter motifs. The end of it, where it fades, is surely Brahms's way of calming this storm. In short, Brahms seems to give us more with less and there's an inevitability. In this particular sense he's more the 'classicist' than the 'romantic'.

Dvorak has some elements of these things in his work; his ending fades in a transcendent way and his Symphony 7 is highly crafted, pleasurable and great, but Brahms has the X Factor.

[Rach3]

In short, Brahms seems to give us more with less and there's an inevitability. In this particular sense he's more the 'classicist' than the 'romantic'.

Dvorak has some elements of these things in his work; his ending fades in a transcendent way and his Symphony 7 is highly crafted, pleasurable and great, but Brahms has the X Factor.

I think you have hit on a key, perhaps the key, point.Interesting.

Fww,Brahm's 3rd and Dvorak's 7th are my fav symphonies of each.Both in 2nd place behind Beethoven 7.

[diegobueno]

Dvorak's 7th is certainly the most Brahmsian of his symphonies, and he does manage to keep the Czech folk dances out of the first two movements at least.

I would imagine Dvorak had the Brahms D minor Piano Concerto in mind when he wrote the first movement. The sudden shift to the B flat minor 6/4 chord at the end of page 11 (about 2 minutes in) is so typically Brahmsian, you can practically see Dvorak asking himself "WWBD?"*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkVFq1I7sik

* (What would Brahms do?)

[neilnw]

Brahms enthusiastically endorsed the Slavonic Dances, and had Simrock (both composers' publisher) give those pieces the extra push.

[Belle]

Dvorak's 7th is certainly the most Brahmsian of his symphonies, and he does manage to keep the Czech folk dances out of the first two movements at least.

I would imagine Dvorak had the Brahms D minor Piano Concerto in mind when he wrote the first movement. The sudden shift to the B flat minor 6/4 chord at the end of page 11 (about 2 minutes in) is so typically Brahmsian, you can practically see Dvorak asking himself "WWBD?"*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkVFq1I7sik

* (What would Brahms do?)

Yes!! And it's such a pleasure to read the score when listening so that these details can be understood 'in print'.

[Belle]

Brahms enthusiastically endorsed the Slavonic Dances, and had Simrock (both composers' publisher) give those pieces the extra push.

These are wonderful works and Brahms admired them (as he did Strauss), but Dvorak specifically sought out his advice about the symphonic form. The inference with that glib response to Dvorak about keeping the folk tunes out probably implied that it was nearly impossible for that composer to follow a classical symphonic structure with long, arching melody lines. Motivic/thematic development was the fundamental element for Brahms and what flowed from those was the foundation of his symphonic thoughts. Some musicologists have referred to a characteristic of late Romanticism as 'thematic transformation' but not for Brahms. This was too 'Wagnerian' for Brahms but not for that other school which developed around for former.

I wonder if longer melodic lines (aka 'the tune') just made it more difficult for some composers to wrestle with and contain the 'classical' symphonic idea? Dvorak seemed to have his foot in both camps and we're all glad he had that fabulous melodic skill. With Brahms I just feel that he could make his symphonies soar as though they were constructed with longer melodic lines even though they actually weren't. Orchestral colouration was an essential part of that with Brahms and he could develop his musical ideas this way, making them seem like longer form melody lines. But, I'm just thinking aloud here. It's still a work in progress for me.

[Lance]

You point out many interesting things in your posts here! For me, I love both Brahms and Dvorak equally, Dvorak probably because of whatever Slavic blood in me awakens. But Brahms, who could live without his four magnificent symphonies? Of Dvorak, outside of the "New World," (which seems overdone these days like Beethoven's 5th) my favorites include the seventh and eighth symphonies. How I enjoyed being in Dvorak's music studio when I visited Prague. I felt a great presence there.

[Rach3]

May be of interest, eg. Dvorak composed his "American " Quartet here I believe:


https://www.iowapbs.org/iowapathways/ar ... s-explores

Video and text.

[Belle]

May be of interest, eg. Dvorak composed his "American " Quartet here I believe:


https://www.iowapbs.org/iowapathways/ar ... s-explores

Video and text.

Wonderful!! Homesickness was a real and enduring problem in the days before air travel, telephones and the internet. Nothing could temporarily assuage that feeling of isolation. I must explore more of Dvorak's chamber music!!

[diegobueno]

Of Dvorak, outside of the "New World," my favourites are the named first symphonies, especially "Winter Dreams" - and the seventh- and eighth symphonies. How I enjoyed being in Dvorak's smusic studio when I visited Prague. I felt a great presence there.

Lance, Tchaikovsky wrote the "Winter Dreams" symphony, and it's a charming work, much more easy-going than the later symphonies.

Dvorak's 1st symphony, "The Bells of Zlonice", is kind of a mess. Dvorak thought this one was lost, and he probably would have wished it had stayed lost. Somewhere in the Cornell music library there's a facsimile edition of Dvorak's manuscript for the New World Symphony, and on the title page you can see him listing his symphonies as if trying to keep count. "I. B-dur. II. Es-dur. III. D-moll. IV. F-dur. V. D-dur. VI. D-moll. VII. G-dur." So you can see Dvorak calculating that the New World must be his 8th Symphony. He had already scratched The Bells of Zlonice off his mental list.

[barney]

You point out many interesting things in your posts here! For me, I love both Brahms and Dvorak equally, Dvorak probably because of whatever Slavic blood in me awakens. But Brahms, who could live without his four magnificent symphonies? Of Dvorak, outside of the "New World," my favourites are the named first symphonies, especially "Winter Dreams" - and the seventh- and eighth symphonies. How I enjoyed being in Dvorak's smusic studio when I visited Prague. I felt a great presence there.

Winter Dreams? Are you sure you are not getting your Slavs mixed up? I believe that's Tchaikovsky.
Like others here, I particularly esteem the seventh.

[Lance]

You are absolutely right! I must be losing it (sometimes). I certainly know better. Glad you caught that, Mark!

Of Dvorak, outside of the "New World," my favourites are the named first symphonies, especially "Winter Dreams" - and the seventh- and eighth symphonies. How I enjoyed being in Dvorak's smusic studio when I visited Prague. I felt a great presence there.

Lance, Tchaikovsky wrote the "Winter Dreams" symphony, and it's a charming work, much more easy-going than the later symphonies.

Dvorak's 1st symphony, "The Bells of Zlonice", is kind of a mess. Dvorak thought this one was lost, and he probably would have wished it had stayed lost. Somewhere in the Cornell music library there's a facsimile edition of Dvorak's manuscript for the New World Symphony, and on the title page you can see him listing his symphonies as if trying to keep count. "I. B-dur. II. Es-dur. III. D-moll. IV. F-dur. V. D-dur. VI. D-moll. VII. G-dur." So you can see Dvorak calculating that the New World must be his 8th Symphony. He had already scratched The Bells of Zlonice off his mental list.

[Lance]

Glad to see so many on their toes ... I must not have been on mine! Maybe it's just getting ... old(er)! Correction noted and my apologies! I DO know better!

You point out many interesting things in your posts here! For me, I love both Brahms and Dvorak equally, Dvorak probably because of whatever Slavic blood in me awakens. But Brahms, who could live without his four magnificent symphonies? Of Dvorak, outside of the "New World," my favourites are the named first symphonies, especially "Winter Dreams" - and the seventh- and eighth symphonies. How I enjoyed being in Dvorak's smusic studio when I visited Prague. I felt a great presence there.

Winter Dreams? Are you sure you are not getting your Slavs mixed up? I believe that's Tchaikovsky.
Like others here, I particularly esteem the seventh.

[THEHORN]

Dvorak and Brahms both wrote wonderful music , but to me at least, the music of Dvorak seems fresher and more spontaneous . Many critics and musicologists have faulted Dvorak's music for not strictly following the "politically correct " methods of composition and dismissed his works as "structurally deficient " ( the same accusation has dogged the music of Tchaikovsky ), but. they have always seemed to me to make perfect structural sense on their own terms .
Yes, the long. lost first symphony is a "mess" , but a glorious mess as far as I am concerned . It's a remarkably bold and original work which Dvorak disowned and was never published in his lifetime, just like the other three which were posthumously published . This created something of a musicological mess because his nine symphonies had to be renumbered , with the famous New World symphony being renumbered as the 9 after having been titled the fifth etc . Composers aren't always the best judges of their own music .
The second symphony is also not "structurally correct " , but it's still a gorgeous work . And unlike Brahms, Dvorak was not averse to writing. programmatic works , such as the symphonic poems "The Noonday Witch," "The Water Goblin ", "The Wood. Dove " and. "The Golden Spinning Wheel . These are sadly neglected in the concert hall, like so.much of Dvorak's music . For the most part, you have to make a trip to the Czech republic to hear his lesser known works live .
It's amazing how. little known to the general music loving. public so many of Dvorak's works are . Your average concertgoer will probably be familiar with the last three symphonies , the cello concerto , the Slavonic Dances and the Carnival overture , and. that's it unless he or she likes to collect unusual repertoire on CD . But somehow , his magnificent opera "Rusalka " is no longer a rarity and has entered the operatic repertoire . The Met, believe it or not, has already done two productions of it .
I haven't heard all of the Dvorak operas , but have his droll and witty comic opera "The Devil and Kate on a Supraphon. CD and on DVD , a production in English from the Wexford opera festival in Ireland . Also , his final opera "Armida" , the same story as set by Gluck , Rossini and other composers . I've also heard the Supraphon recording of. "Dimitrij , which was recently performed at the Bard college summer festival , which deals with the life of the false Dmitri after the death of Boris Godunov , also an operatic masterpiece , and oa couple other operas of his .
I have the Supraphon CD of his spooky oratorio "The Specter's Bride " . Also the rarely performed " Slavonic Rhapsodies ", not to be confused with the Slavonic Dances . These are wonderful too .
And I've never been able to understand the neglect of Dvorak's magnificent Requiem , which holds its own with those of Mozart, Berlioz and Verdi . There's so much wonderful music by Dvorak outside. the works I mention here . Hie's actually a much greater composer than he's given credit for being .

[barney]

Thats a very interesting post, with many good points, but in the end I side with Belle in preferring Brahms (to the extent that such a statement has any meaning. What I mean by it is that I listen to a great deal of Brahms, vastly more than Dvorak, though I esteem and enjoy the latter).

[diegobueno]

Today (Sept. 8, 2023), is Dvorak's birthday and I'd like to spend some time to talk about one of my favorite "unknown" Dvorak pieces.

"Unknown" is a relative concept. Dvorak's place in the canon of western music is so secure that very little of what he wrote has been neglected completely. I just want to say I have a soft spot for the last of his symphonic poems A Hero's Song, op. 111.

There is no program to A Hero's Song, except that perhaps, like a similarly titled work by Strauss, this is supposed to be an autobiography in music. Anyway, what it shows about Dvorak is that in his later years he felt the need to move away from his ties to Brahms and explore the influence of Wagner. He stopped composing symphonies and wrote programmatic concert overtures (Carnival, Othello) and symphonic poems instead, and at the end, turned exclusively to opera. Although well versed in traditional symphonic form, he set that aside in the symphonic poems and instead generated development through the transformation of motives, following the examples of Liszt and Wagner.

This is all to say that the continuity of A Hero's Song can be puzzling at first hearing. It consists of a succession of episodes, none of which are repeated. But running through it all is the Hauptmotiv, the main motive which is introduced at the very beginning and is ever-present in all of the episodes. If you can follow that motive, you can hear Dvorak's endless capacity to spin tune after tune out of short motives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnC1ow87NYU

[maestrob]

Thank-you, Mark! That's a lovely work, one that I don't remember hearing before.

CORRECTION: I do have A Hero's Song conducted by Andris Nelsons: here it is:

[CharmNewton]

I also want to thank you for mentioning A Hero's Song. I hadn't heard of it before and listened to three different recordings online conducted by Andris Nelsons, Antoni Wit and Bohumil Gregor, the last named recordng very well played by the Czech Philharmonic.

Over the past few months I've been making a point of listening to unfamiliar Dvořák, which for me is most of his music. It does take repeated listening.

A few months ago I was listening to his Cello Concerto in B minor with score and noticed the care and detail with which he notated the solo part--and how much Casals ignored these markings. Casals isn't alone in that, I discovered.

As a bit of trivia, the world premiere of A Hero's Song was conducted by Gustav Mahler in Vienna on December 4, 1898.

John

[Febnyc]

Any thoughts on Dvořák's "other" Cello Concerto, in A Major?

[CharmNewton]

Any thoughts on Dvořák's "other" Cello Concerto, in A Major?

I had never heard the A Major Concerto, and found three recordings which also were taken from three different editions.

First off, it is a beautiful work for cello regardless of the edition used. Dvořák writes beautifully in the moderately high positions conveying the richness and sweetness of the instrument. He played the viola, but he seems to have a very sweet spot for the cello (I'm sure if the Tertis model of viola had been available while Dvořák was alive, he's have written something special for the instrument).

The two versions with orchestra appear to be arrangements made specifically for their respective recordings and differ in places as both make cuts, occasionally retaining different passages.

The Alexander Rudin performance with small orchestra seems to highlight the lyricism of the work. His instrument, as recorded, sounds lighter and sweeter.

The performance of Tomáš Jamnik is more virtuosic. His instrument has a fuller, deeper sound, reminding me of a Gofriller or Montagnana. I was reading that his version is an amalgamation of the two published editions, Raphael and Burghauser, both also having cuts.

I listened halfway through the First Movement of Jiři Bárta's recording of the original edition with piano as Dvořák left it (never published) and uncut. I liked what I was hearing, but had to call it quits as it was getting late for me. I'll return to it tomorrow. His CD is unfortunately out-of-print, but an .mp3 is available.

I also plan to listen to the Steven Isserlis recoridng. He is one of my favorite cellists and plays a beautiful sounding Stradivarius cello (Yo-Yo Ma, another of my favorites, also plays a beautiful sounding Stradivarius). His is of the original Raphael edition.

Be sure to let us know what you think of this work.

John

[Febnyc]

John:

Thanks for all that information and some interesting opinions.

I asked the question because I've always enjoyed this Concerto. Why it languishes in the shade behind Op. 104 may or may not be apparent to most, but I wonder if it simply is "one of those things" which occur in music and relegate works to positions of inferiority that are not deserved.

My only recording of the A Major Concerto is a 1976 performance on the Supraphon label. Cellist is Miloš Sádlo (who, along with Jarmil Burghauser, was involved in the orchestration of this piece from the original piano score), with the Czech Philharmonic/Václav Neumann. Also includes a lovely Polonaise for Cello (and Piano).

[CharmNewton]

John:

Thanks for all that information and some interesting opinions.

I asked the question because I've always enjoyed this Concerto. Why it languishes in the shade behind Op. 104 may or may not be apparent to most, but I wonder if it simply is "one of those things" which occur in music and relegate works to positions of inferiority that are not deserved.

My only recording of the A Major Concerto is a 1976 performance on the Supraphon label. Cellist is Miloš Sádlo (who, along with Jarmil Burghauser, was involved in the orchestration of this piece from the original piano score), with the Czech Philharmonic/Václav Neumann. Also includes a lovely Polonaise for Cello (and Piano).

The Miloš Sádlo recording was the one I remember as being the only recording of the work. It has been reissued on CD and I will seek it out. Sádlo was a very fine cellist, but like many from that generation the memory of his art has faded.

John

[Belle]

Today I listened to Dvorak Symphony #8 with the Vienna Philharmonic/Jakob Hrůša in the concert from Prague late last year. What a very fine conductor he is too; the orchestra was on fire, except the Timp was out of balance by being a little too loud at times.

Starts here at 56 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP-2hIa7R_Y

The textures are often quite Brahmsian, as we know, and there's a good reason for that. But I kept asking myself about the differences between Brahms and Dvorak as I listened to the latter's penultimate symphony. It's my favourite, alongside #7.

I think I've found the answer: Dvorak threw the window open; there he saw birds, trees, nature, joy - in a Czech setting - but always with some restrained melancholy. Dvorak brings in the fresh Spring breezes where Brahms is very intense and locked into the interior; nothing outward-looking in his work. Even his optimism is qualified and tentative. The final movement of Symphony #2, Allegro Con Spirito, is ecstatic and rapturous but it's not 'joyful'. It's febrile, highly-strung, taut and magisterial. For me, Brahms is concerned with form, contrapuntal complexity, colouration and rhythmic, across-the-barline ingenuity. Instrumental 'dialogue' and mastery of orchestration is also part of his aesthetic and this former reminds me of Mozart's last symphonies. So help me, I'll never tire of these earth-shatteringly gorgeous works. They are 10 on the, er, Richter scale!!

You don't find those qualities as much in Dvorak. This was a melodist with fabulous orchestration and that fresh air I talked about. Form and structure were there, of course, but melody sits front and centre. Tumult like you get in Brahms is often there to occasionally provide a cadence point to something rapturous and to rouse audiences.

Brahms's Andante in Symphony #3 (absolute ecstasy, btw) is the nearest Dvorak and he resemble each other symphonically and the Poco Allegretto is, I think, the closest to Dvorak's sound world.

Though the orchestrations are often very similar between them, their aesthetics couldn't be more different. Brahms is much the 'heavier' composer. Even when he's light he's relatively 'heavy'. Certainly intense and craftsman-like. Fugue, passacaglia - you get it all in Brahms.

As I write this I'm listening to Brahms #3 closing movement with Cleveland/Szell and I have a mental image of the composer in that woollen three-piece suit pictured in his last years. A perfect metaphor; warm, heavy, durable, not 'fashionable' but classic. And, finally, by no means dressy or symbolic of conformism in the wearer.

Thoughts?

[Belle]

Vaclav Neumann conducts Czech Philharmonic and Dvorak's Symphony 7. A wonderful work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkVFq1I7sik

[maestrob]

Vaclav Neumann conducts Czech Philharmonic and Dvorak's Symphony 7. A wonderful work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkVFq1I7sik

I grew up with George Szell's inspired readings of Dvorak's final three symphonies. Neumann actually recorded the cycle twice, first in analog stereo and then in digital. IMHO, the earlier cycle, especially #9, is better.

[Lance]

Reading diegobueno's/Mark's post, I gave a hearing today to A Hero's Song, Op. 111 - something I have not heard in a long time, and being a very late piece in Dvořák's output, I find it much darker than we hear in many of his compositions, though it has a happy mode or two as well, though, for sure, it has that immediately recognizeable Dvořák imprint. The recording I heard is with the fabulous Czech Philharmonic under Bohumil Gregor's direction. Supraphon put out a series of box sets devoted to Dvořák's work, one devoted to his string quartets, another to piano works, one for chamber works, and the one I have, symphonic works and concertos [4090, 8 CDs, budget priced if it still around]. This set does not include the symphonies so there may be yet another set of those in the series. This set is loaded with incredible music performed by the Czechs themselves, and includes pianist Ivan Moravec in the piano concerto, violinists Josef Suk and Vaclav Hudecek, Milos Sadlo, cellist. Conductors include Vaclav Neumann, Sir Charles Mackerras (un-Czeched!), Belohlavek, and Gregor. Some amazing music in this set of works not immediately available elsewhere. Orchestras, I find, don't get better than the Czech Philharmonic dispensing the spirit of the composer with aplomb!

Today (Sept. 8, 2023), is Dvorak's birthday and I'd like to spend some time to talk about one of my favorite "unknown" Dvorak pieces.

"Unknown" is a relative concept. Dvorak's place in the canon of western music is so secure that very little of what he wrote has been neglected completely. I just want to say I have a soft spot for the last of his symphonic poems A Hero's Song, op. 111.

There is no program to A Hero's Song, except that perhaps, like a similarly titled work by Strauss, this is supposed to be an autobiography in music. Anyway, what it shows about Dvorak is that in his later years he felt the need to move away from his ties to Brahms and explore the influence of Wagner. He stopped composing symphonies and wrote programmatic concert overtures (Carnival, Othello) and symphonic poems instead, and at the end, turned exclusively to opera. Although well versed in traditional symphonic form, he set that aside in the symphonic poems and instead generated development through the transformation of motives, following the examples of Liszt and Wagner.

This is all to say that the continuity of A Hero's Song can be puzzling at first hearing. It consists of a succession of episodes, none of which are repeated. But running through it all is the Hauptmotiv, the main motive which is introduced at the very beginning and is ever-present in all of the episodes. If you can follow that motive, you can hear Dvorak's endless capacity to spin tune after tune out of short motives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnC1ow87NYU