The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

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maestrob
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The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by maestrob » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:51 pm

A provocative study suggests that certain colds may leave antibodies against the new coronavirus, perhaps explaining why children are more protected than adults.


By Gina Kolata
Published Nov. 10, 2020
Updated Nov. 12, 2020


It’s been a big puzzle of the pandemic: Why are children so much less likely than adults to become infected with the new coronavirus and, if infected, less likely to become ill?

A possible reason may be that many children already have antibodies to other coronaviruses, according to researchers at the Francis Crick Institute in London. About one in five of the colds that plague children are caused by viruses in this family. Antibodies to those viruses may also block SARS-CoV-2, the new coronavirus causing the pandemic.

In a study published Friday in Science, the group, led by George Kassiotis, who heads the Retroviral Immunology Laboratory at the institute, reports that on average only 5 percent of adults had these antibodies, but 43 percent of children did.

Researchers who did not participate in the study were intrigued by the finding. H. Benjamin Larman, an immunologist at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, called it a “well-done study that puts forward a compelling theory which is supported by their data.”

Read more details here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/heal ... e=Homepage

Holden Fourth
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by Holden Fourth » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:39 pm

Here in Australia we worked out very quickly that children were not being infected/affected so we reopened our schools much sooner than 'conventional wisdom' would have deemed wise. It was a decision that proved to be correct.

The UK has picked up on this as well and despite the 'second wave' are keeping their schools open.

One telling point in the article:

“We focus on those who get really sick, but 95 to 98 percent of those who get the virus don’t have to go to the hospital,” Dr. Elledge said. “There are a lot of people who do get better.” Here in Australia it's over 99%.

jserraglio
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by jserraglio » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:54 pm

Holden Fourth wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:39 pm
“We focus on those who get really sick, but 95 to 98 percent of those who get the virus don’t have to go to the hospital,” Dr. Elledge said. “There are a lot of people who do get better.”
Given almost 200,000 cases per day in the US, a 2%-5% hospitalization rate hardly fills one with confidence, even if one assumes there would be enough hospital beds and medical staff to accommodate the resulting 4,000-10,000 additional patients per day, which is increasingly not the case in my country.

A lot of people do get better but the virus is so widespread that even at low mortality rates, a lot of people don’t.

Here in the US, more than 260,000 people aren’t around anymore to tell their kids or grandkids bracing tales about how they beat covid.

Furthermore, even some relatively young people in their 40s and 50s, people who initially experienced only mild symptoms and then appeared to fully recover, are now presenting with problems such as fatigue, inability to exercise or walk normal distances, difficulty breathing and memory loss.

Fact is, there is a lot still unknown about how this respiratory virus affects the rest of the body over time — other than that one doesn’t want to risk contracting it. This virus surely should not be downplayed or taken lightly.

maestrob
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by maestrob » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:17 am

There are other very serious long term symptoms that have been discovered so far. What's been discovered is not for the faint of heart. Here is an updated list from The Mayo Clinic as of Nov. 17:

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

Heart.

Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
Lungs.

The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.
Brain.

Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

Blood clots and blood vessel problems

COVID-19 can make blood cells more likely to clump up and form clots. While large clots can cause heart attacks and strokes, much of the heart damage caused by COVID-19 is believed to stem from very small clots that block tiny blood vessels (capillaries) in the heart muscle.

Other parts of the body affected by blood clots include the lungs, legs, liver and kidneys. COVID-19 can also weaken blood vessels and cause them to leak, which contributes to potentially long-lasting problems with the liver and kidneys.

Problems with mood and fatigue

People who have severe symptoms of COVID-19 often have to be treated in a hospital's intensive care unit, with mechanical assistance such as ventilators to breathe. Simply surviving this experience can make a person more likely to later develop post-traumatic stress syndrome, depression and anxiety.

Because it's difficult to predict long-term outcomes from the new COVID-19 virus, scientists are looking at the long-term effects seen in related viruses, such as the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).

Many people who have recovered from SARS have gone on to develop chronic fatigue syndrome, a complex disorder characterized by extreme fatigue that worsens with physical or mental activity, but doesn't improve with rest. The same may be true for people who have had COVID-19.

Many long-term COVID-19 effects still unknown

Much is still unknown about how COVID-19 will affect people over time. However, researchers recommend that doctors closely monitor people who have had COVID-19 to see how their organs are functioning after recovery.

Many large medical centers are opening specialized clinics to provide care for people who have persistent symptoms or related illnesses after they recover from COVID-19.

It's important to remember that most people who have COVID-19 recover quickly. But the potentially long-lasting problems from COVID-19 make it even more important to reduce the spread of the disease by following precautions such as wearing masks, avoiding crowds and keeping hands clean.

For more information, follow this link:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus- ... t-20490351

Holden Fourth
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by Holden Fourth » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm

Interesting article and thank you for posting it.

Reading through it still gives the impression that it's the elderly and those with comorbidities who are the 'long haulers' so the points made in the article may not be anywhere as bad as the title of the article might suggest.

Older people and people with many serious medical conditions are the most likely to experience lingering COVID-19 symptoms, but even young, otherwise healthy people can feel unwell for weeks to months after infection. The most common signs and symptoms that linger over time include:
Fatigue
Shortness of breath
Cough
Joint pain
Chest pain

Other long-term signs and symptoms may include:
Muscle pain or headache
Fast or pounding heartbeat
Loss of smell or taste
Memory, concentration or sleep problems
Rash or hair loss


No mention of organ damage for young, otherwise healthy people

Also, I don't see any evidential link published regarding organ damage and Covid19. The lungs makes sense to me as it's an illness that affects the respiratory system but the rest I'm not so sure about.

Just because a person who contracted Covid19 has heart muscle damage doesn't necessarily make Covid19 the cause. The question to ask here is "Was the issue discovered after Covid contraction or was that person medically proven to have no heart damage before getting coronavirus?" If it's former then linking the two is pure speculation. If it is the latter why doesn't the article from the Mayo clinic state this fact.

Puntman VO, et al. Outcomes of cardiovascular magnetic resonance imaging in patients recently recovered from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). JAMA Cardiology. 2020; doi:10.1001/jamacardio.2020.3557.

This is one of the references listed and there are a number of others like it with a similar theme in the reference list at the end of the article. To me this suggests that the former statement I made appears to be the case.

jserraglio
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by jserraglio » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:08 pm

In the US, people with co-morbidities rendering them susceptible to covid complications make up more than 45% percent of the total population, ranging from 20% for ages 18-29 years to 80% for ages 80+ years.

So it is largely the aged but by no means only the aged who are at risk of developing serious complications. A significant number of those who are relatively young but have co-morbidity are also in peril.

Those serious complications involve but are not limited to the lungs. Doctors who treat covid patients testify that, unlike other respiratory diseases, covid attacks other vital organs.

And the fact that a patient's heart muscle damage might be wrongly attributed to covid does not alter the fact that many who actually die from covid, especially those who die at home or in a nursing facility, are listed as having died from some other cause. I have personal knowledge of one such case.

So the quarter million confirmed deaths from covid in the US is almost certainly an undercount.

Holden Fourth
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by Holden Fourth » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:46 pm

45% of the population with comorbidities is mind boggling. Is this lifestyle related?

And the fact that a patient's heart muscle damage might be wrongly attributed to covid does not alter the fact that many who actually die from covid, especially those who die at home or in a nursing facility, are listed as having died from some other cause. I have personal knowledge of one such case.

I suspect that there are both sides to that story with some deaths being attributed to Covid that weren't and vice-versa.

There was a well researched study by a well known University looking at the discrepancy between reported and actual cases. Their findings indicated that the reported cases were probably less than 30% of the actual cases. In other words, take the reported cases and multiply them by at least a factor of four. Earlier this year the NZ Govt declared that they had 'eliminated' Covid19. That would have to be one of the stupidest statements ever made and it came from the mouth of the PM. They were proved decisively wrong.

jserraglio
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by jserraglio » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:17 am

Holden Fourth wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:46 pm
45% of the population with comorbidities is mind boggling. Is this lifestyle related?
Printed below is a link to my source for that shocking number. If that 45% percentage is accurate, I guess it would be related to a number of socio-economic factors listed by the abstract below, lifestyle no doubt being one of them.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/8/20-0679_article
Abstract
We estimated that 45.4% of US adults are at increased risk for complications from coronavirus disease because of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, respiratory disease, hypertension, or cancer. Rates increased by age, from 19.8% for persons 18–29 years of age to 80.7% for persons >80 years of age, and varied by state, race/ethnicity, health insurance status, and employment.
I agree with the rest of your message.

maestrob
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by maestrob » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:12 am

Thanks, Joe, for posting that link.

45% is a horrifying figure, and completely believable to me, considering the overwhelming prevalence of obesity in American society nowadays. We simply must change our eating habits. The diet we consume as a nation is literally killing us. All that junk food and gallons of sugary soda, as well as the fact that we add so much salt and corn syrup to processed foods to enhance flavor and make them cheaper must be changed, as our low-income population can only afford to "eat cheap" rather than healthy. In many of our cities there are areas which are called "food deserts" here, where there are no grocery stores where anyone can even find fresh produce, let alone afford to buy it.

I imagine the same may be said for some deeply rural areas as well. Imagine having to drive an hour to get to the nearest fully-stocked grocery store every week.

But that's a broad topic for another thread of its own.

jserraglio
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by jserraglio » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:40 pm

50,000,000 Americans are 65 or older.
100,000,000 are younger than 65 but have some form of co-morbidity.
Total US population = 328,000,000.
150/328=45.7%

These rough-hewn estimates approximate the 45.4% arrived at by the CDC study.

And when you add in 20,000,000 health workers, even more Americans than that are at significant risk of serious complications if infected with covid.

My source for these numbers is an epidemiologist (do not recall her name) working on vaccine distribution and interviewed on CNN yesterday.

This doctor also said she fully expects the Christmas & New Year’s holidays to be worse than Thanksgiving in terms of infections.

maestrob
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Re: The Children Never Had the Coronavirus. So Why Did They Have Antibodies?

Post by maestrob » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:07 pm

To continue this conversation, here is the link to a segment of CBS's 60 Minutes that aired last night on the topic of long haulers who have had Covid-19 and recovered from their initial exposure, either asymtomatic or with mild initial symptoms, most of them younger people featured in their reporting. It seems that my hospital, Mt. Sinai, has established a facility right here in Manhattan that is studying the terrible after-effects of Covid-19 that their patients are experiencing, including the woman doctor who is featured in the interview with Anderson Cooper.

Quite terrifying. This disease is not to be taken lightly. Do pay close attention to the summary at the end.

https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/vi ... ey-go-90-/

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