Is heritage all it's cracked up to be?

[Teresa B]

OK, for better or worse, after some recent discussions here I got to thinking (yes, really) about being "proud of one's heritage." This is not, I implore everyone to hear, intended to disparage anyone's heritage, make any comparisons of different heritages, or claim it is somehow wrong to feel such pride. It's just food for thought.

What does it actually mean? Should I be proud of the fact that my ancestors happen to have lived in a certain country or region, and if so, why? I am proud, for example, of particular ancestors for doing things like bravely facing the enemy in two world wars, working their rear ends off to educate their children, and various other accomplishments. I have benefited immeasurably from some of them. But I can't take personal pride in their achievements, as I had nothing to do with them. And some of them happen to have come from Italy, which has a great (punctuated by awful) heritage, culturally and historically. But ought I to be proud, or on the other hand, ashamed, of simply having some genes from Italy?

And my last question...Is it really meaningful to describe ourselves as "Italian-American", "African-American," "French-Vietnamese", etc? (It may be, in certain pragmatic terms, but I'm speaking philosophically.) These are categories as completely created by us as the lines between states and countries on the map.

In fact, I submit we are every one of us Milky-Wayans--no, how about Universians?

Teresa

[Werner]

Heitage is something we have been handed by our parents, to be passed on, in whatever form modified by changing times and envorinments - to our successors.

You mention the two generations preceding yours having served in the two great Worlkd Wars. And so you are living with the benefits pf what they fought for, and take pride in that. Rightly so, of course.

Your ancestors came to this country from another part of the world. And many of us have also landed here from elswhere. And the effort in each case has been to deal with the changes in our lives the best we can, give the best account of ourselves, and pass on to the next generations something of what we've learned along the way.

So ir seems to me that we all share some similarities on heritage, to be identified proudly, and respected deeply, one to the other.

Sorry to sound stuffy, Teresa - perhaps the next response will say it better - but you know what I mean.

[RebLem]

And my last question...Is it really meaningful to describe ourselves as "Italian-American", "African-American," "French-Vietnamese", etc? (It may be, in certain pragmatic terms, but I'm speaking philosophically.) These are categories as completely created by us as the lines between states and countries on the map.

In fact, I submit we are every one of us Milky-Wayans--no, how about Universians?
Teresa

More like a mosaic. And it is, IMO, good, for the most part. For one thing, it tends to blow some cold breath over the hot fires of American jingoism, and that's all to the good.

It depends on what it is that makes you proud. If what fills you with pride in being an American is seeing Leonard Bernstein conduct the VPO in a Mahler symphony, that is good. If you are proud of being an American because you can go out to a figure 8 racetrack on Saturday night and watch a demolition derby, that's not so good.

If what makes you proud of being Italian are the operas of Giuseppe Verdi, fine. If you have Mafia-pride, though, that's not so good. And so on.

[jbuck919]

In graduate school I pal-ed around with a guy who is now a famous (well, in academic circles) music theoretician, and he was fond of saying that we should be proud of Shakespeare because we all spoke English. Nuff said about heritage.

[Agnes Selby]

Oh, Dear Teresa, our grandchildren will truly grow up confused.
If we speak of pride in our heritage, what should these poor young ones be proud of? On their father's mother's side their ancestor arrived in Australia in irons on the First Fleet. On their father's side, their ancestor came from Italy via Scotland where he found his Scottish wife.
His son then married an Irish woman in Australia. Theo's and my contribution to this wonderful stew is, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Rumania. Could drive a person crazy. NO?

Regards,
Agnes.
--------------------

[Ralph]

Theodore Roosevelt strongly inveighed against hyphenated Americanism but most reject that approach.

People, most of them, seem to need a connection with the past and the most logical and often strongest ties are ethnic or national origin. While some celebrations, New York City's annual "Salute to Israel" parade for example, are clearly tied to current world issues, many others aren't. And yet people care much about maintaining roots that they came from.

Perhaps because humans are social animals, in a collectivist society the most logical associations revolve around origins.

[Evelyn Laden]

Good question, Teresa. But since one has no choice in whatever one's personal heritage is (or was), it's probably best to accept it without criticism or excessive pride. When it comes to country of origin, I can't think of a single one that doesn't have some good and some bad in its history. So one can love it because one was born there, loves the language, customs, culture, and enjoyed living there.
The "shame" factor might be mentioned in relation to heritage. Not infrequently people are ashamed of something or someone in their past, even though they are in no way responsible. In class-conscious countries, that can make a big difference. The obverse is to re-invent the past in a more favorable light. Some get away with it, others are not so lucky.
The only thing that makes sense to me is to be proud (or not) of what one has done with one's own life. If the former is the case, by all means be proud of it: Quite possibly, no one else will be!

[Teresa B]

Oh, Dear Teresa, our grandchildren will truly grow up confused.
If we speak of pride in our heritage, what should these poor young ones be proud of? On their father's mother's side their ancestor arrived in Australia in irons on the First Fleet. On their father's side, their ancestor came from Italy via Scotland where he found his Scottish wife.
His son then married an Irish woman in Australia. Theo's and my contribution to this wonderful stew is, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Rumania. Could drive a person crazy. NO?

Regards,
Agnes.
--------------------

Dear Agnes,

You said it better, that's exactly what I'm saying: We are all from Planet Earth, and all of us share the same basic genes (Come to think of it, we share 96% of them with chimps). So, does it make sense (philisophically) to split ourselves into nationalities?

As Werner said, being proud of the wonderful accomplishments of our ancestors is only fitting, and I would shout from the rooftops that I am proud of my father, mother, grandfather, and a lot of other ancestors who made each generation's life better.

Bestest,
Teresa

[piston]

A poll addressing the relative significance of heritage would prove very revealing, I suspect, if the data were garnered on the basis of ethnicity and race, not just self-ascribed ethnic identity. (Self-ascribed in the sense suggested by Agnes, above, that while many people could claim numerous ethnic origins somehow only one of them is emphasized).

Ethnic heritage is a fact of life for all first generation immigrants who originate from a rather homogeneous society. I am from French Canada, as many of you know, and to this day four of my five siblings do not really speak English fluently (not at all, in the case of my three brothers). All of my ancestors are French Canadians, on both sides, for more than ten generations. Beyond language and its distinct cultural bagage, this means that my ancestors, my parents, my siblings, all of my cousins don't share the same history as the vast majority of American citizens. To claim "American" heritage, then, I would have to adopt a history that is not mine and relinquish the history of my relatives.

As far as she can remember and verify in genealogical records (dating back to the early 19th century and becoming annual censuses in the mid-19 century), my spouse cannot find a single Caucasian individual in her ancestral lineages, not one. Her ancestors, her parents, her relatives are Wabanaki (with some Mohawk identity as well). Her history is also entirely different from the historical experience, hence, the heritage, of mainstream "American" society. When her father fought in Korea, for example, Maine Indians still could not exercise the right to vote in the state of Maine. More importantly, the heritage Maine Indians cherish (tribal histories, songs, drumming and other meaningful rituals, concepts of spirituality, food and communal meals, decision-making processes and conflict resolution, etc.) has been and continues to be very different from any Caucasian conception of "heritage." Naturally, they, too, do not wish to relinquish such an identity merely to conform to what is projected in the media as the genuine "Melting Pot" American heritage.

It's funny that this question is being addressed the way it is, as though it were a point in philosophy or of ideological opinion. People who rightfully claim a distinct heritage do so objectively by pointing to their truly different identities, past and present.

[Teresa B]

It's funny that this question is being addressed the way it is, as though it were a point in philosophy or of ideological opinion. People who rightfully claim a distinct heritage do so objectively by pointing to their truly different identities, past and present.

I hear what you're saying, piston, and I have no quibble at all with valuing one's immediate heritage in terms of cultural uniqueness, or desiring to preserve its positive aspects. My Italian immigrant grandparents, for example, made cigars here in Tampa in the 20's and 30's, being part of a unique culture composed of Italian and Latino workers, many of whom were illiterate, being read to by a "lector" in the huge room of the factory as they worked. And these people worked incredibly long and hard to educate their children--a payoff that we, their grandchildren, have much to thank them for. I wouldn't ever want to forget their lives or the world they lived in. Today, in fact, my son goes to college in their old neighborhood and passes by the old factory buildings daily. This has raised in him a fascination with his grandpa's history.

I'm not arguing that cultural distinctness ought to be obliterated. I'm just asking the question (and yes, it is a philosophical point) about the taking of personal "pride." Can we ourselves take pride in those exact things when we are not the ones who achieved them?

And is it valid to take pride in simply calling oneself by a particular nationality or ethnicity? This may be viewed from two directions: Cultural heritage, and genetic heritage. Cultural, I mentioned above. But what about taking pride in simply having ancestors from _________(fill in)? After all, if you go back aways, those ancestors were no longer from there, because "there" was not yet defined! And when you go back enough generations, all of us have the same heritage.

Teresa

[BWV 1080]

One side of my family immigrated from Norway. My grandfather praised all things Viking (and slammed all things Swedish). One can praise Norse culture and be proud of its accomplishments without having to feel ashamed that a significant component of it including raping, enslaving and pillaging their neighbors. By the same token Southerners have a right to their heritage even though there are some dark aspects of it. On the other hand, I have yet to encounter any medieval Norse enthusiasts who claim that the Irish actually appreciated being raped, pillaged and enslaved. I would have alot more respect for the Southern Paleocons if they would abandon their modern sanitized view of the South and just be honest that the whole basis for their economy and secession was slavery.

[Ricordanza]

We are all from Planet Earth, and all of us share the same basic genes (Come to think of it, we share 96% of them with chimps). So, does it make sense (philisophically) to split ourselves into nationalities?

Teresa, from a philosophical, ideal standpoint, I could agree with you. But as a realist, I recognize that most residents of Planet Earth (including me) have an emotional, and not altogether irrational, need for a more specific group identity and pride. This is an especially pertinent topic as Jews, such as myself, approach Passover. In our Seder, we celebrate the struggle of our "ancestors," Moses and the Hebrews, to overcome oppression. Are they really our ancestors? Scientifically, I don't think that this has been proven. And even if proven, it is true in a sense that I have no good reason to celebrate their struggle and ignore the undoubtedly less-than-noble deeds of other ancestors.

But I still feel a sense of pride in the values and the struggles of "my people" over the centuries. As long as I do not take that pride in my heritage and transform and distort it into ridicule or oppression of those from another heritage, I submit that it is a positive force.

[Teresa B]

Ricordanza, You said it very well by stating that this pride is positive as long as it isn't used in an invidious way toward other heritages. (I think I waxed on about my immigrant grandparents for the reasons you mention.) We all have a sense of belonging that stems from our history, and my question was really just to put forth an idea rather than to "un-define" our unique heritages.

In fact, I would even go further back in history than you did in proposing that prehistoric humans had an evolutionary advantage if they retained this sense of belonging, which could have enhanced the survival of larger groups. Thus our ancient propensity for such emotional ties are still in our genes, and totally rational or not, we are all human. (And nobody ever said humans are altogether rational! ) The flip side of this might be xenophobia, which was advantageous perhaps to the survival of prehistoric tribes, but not so helpful today.

Thanks for an excellent post. You, too, BWV.
Teresa

[Agnes Selby]

[quote="Teresa B"]Ricordanza, You said it very well by stating that this pride is positive as long as it isn't used in an invidious way toward other heritages. (I think I waxed on about my immigrant grandparents for the reasons you mention.) We all have a sense of belonging that stems from our history, and my question was really just to put forth an idea rather than to "un-define" our unique heritages.

In fact, I would even go further back in history than you did in proposing that prehistoric humans had an evolutionary advantage if they retained this sense of belonging, which could have enhanced the survival of larger groups. Thus our ancient propensity for such emotional ties are still in our genes, and totally rational or not, we are all human. (And nobody ever said humans are altogether rational! ) The flip side of this might be xenophobia, which was advantageous perhaps to the survival of prehistoric tribes, but not so helpful today.

--------------

The emotional ties for the preservation of our genes have been studied by Jarred Diamond in New Guinea among the hunter gatherer tribes which
existed there even 30 years ago. Ancestral pride is one of the motivations for war among the tribes of New Guinea as it is among the more advanced inheritors of the ape gene. The preservation of tribal genes leads to religious wars or any other excuse for killing our neighbours. As you say, Teresa, it goes well beyond our own civilization right back to prehistoric man when cannibalism was as good a way to get rid of competing tribes as is our modern weaponry.

Regards,
Agnes.
---------------------------

[Sapphire]

See this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13577802/

It seems to be a study by a reputable source but I can't find out any more than what's contained in the report.



Saphire

[Agnes Selby]

See this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13577802/

It seems to be a study by a reputable source but I can't find out any more than what's contained in the report.



Saphire

------------------

Dear Saphire,

Interesting article. However, patriotism as we call it, is basically a tribal phenomenom. Going back all the the way to prehistoric times, it allowed for tribal survival.

Also, I would like to point out that patriotism existed even before the formation of modern states. The Czechoslovakian Republic is a good example.
Patriotism was brewing among the Chechs and Slovaks during the reign of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. Unrest was ripe necessitating strict
supervision by the ruling state. Consider Smetana's musical output. His patriotic or rather tribal emotions were ripe and well expressed, even though he could not speak his native tongue. Supression of individualism or collective patriotism does not work and sooner or later people will fight for freedom to govern themselves.

Australia, I note, is on that list. Australia is still a subject of the English Queen. Although the kind lady does not interfere in our affairs and rarely visits our shores, there is a movement afoot to declare ourselves free of "English domination". Many of us ask why? Better the devil you know, than the one you don't. However, it is the same old story. Pride in one's own country and the achievements of one's countrymen. It holds the nation or rather the tribe together in a cohesive whole.

I think, however, we have strayed from the course a bit. I think, Theresa
spoke of individual pride, as opposed to pride in the achievements of one's ancestors. I think she advocated encouragement of one's pride in his/her own achievements. For example, an old gentleman died recently in Sydney. His obituary pointed out his great pride in his ancestry which went back to an English king, circa 1420. He, as an individual had achieved nothing, for nothing of any value was mentioned in his obituary. His only achievement in life was his ancestry going back 600 years.

By the way, Saphire, my husband and I had a good laugh at your haddock joke. Thank you for that. And yes, New Zeland is a beautiful country. We have visited it many times and I think my husband climbed every mountain there while I sat, bored to death, looking at the magnificent views.

Kind regards,
Agnes.

[BWV 1080]

When it comes to pride no one outdoes Texas, as this song demonstrates:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apMyjOAacyA

[Brendan]

We scarcely see that the perception of cause and effect itself—history—is the distinctive element in the ceaseless, restless dynamic by means of which strategy and law live out their necessary relationship to each other. For law and strategy are not merely made in history—a sequence of events and culminating effects—they are made of history. It is the self-portrayal of a society that enables it to know its own identity. Without this knowledge a society cannot establish its rule by law because every system of laws depends upon the continuity of legitimacy, which is an attribute of identity. Furthermore, without such a self-portrayal, no society can pursue a rational strategy because it is the identity of the society that strategy seeks to promote, protect, and preserve. One might say that without its own history, its self-understanding, no society can have either law or strategy, because it cannot be constituted as an independent entity.
Bobbitt, Philip, The Shield of Achilles [Penguin 2002, p 6-7]

Can I take pride in the fact that my society grew from a penal colony to an advanced modern nation in a hundred years or so or should I constantly dwell on the effect on the natives this modern nation building caused? Few other cultures in history indulge in the hand-wringing modern Western nations do. We’ve granted tribal lands to be administered under tribal law as an exercise in political correctness and historical guilt (and ‘noble savage’ utopianism)—and now the reports of systematic rape and abuse of women and children roll in we are paralysed as to what to do. If we interfere we are being white, colonial, imperialistic racists. If we do not, we allow mass abuse of women and children for fear of being “imperialist” etc.

Western guilt, when it was our society that brought the idea of the rule of law to the world, seems to me a strange beast indeed. Self-criticism has been part of Western culture since the Greeks, but as part of self-improvement rather than the self-loathing of multicultural PC.

To have no pride in one’s society, one’s nation, one’s people however that is defined (as an Aussie I have a very mixed background/genetic trail) is to wish for that society to be dissolved now or to have never existed as it is in reality. Utopian ideology means we cannot take pride in what we have achieved in reality, as it always falls of short of the imaginary ideal. Discussions of slavery, for instance, often revolve around financial reparations for Western slavery that ceased centuries ago rather than the slavery that exists today, in the slave markets that have reopened since Western colonial forces moved out.

So I say take pride in going to the demolition derby and waving your flag as proudly as you like. It is freedom as few people in history have ever known it, and I take pride in being part of a Western culture that can put Belgian beer in my fridge, American movies on my TV, water that not only won’t kill me but will assist in the fight against tooth-decay flowing at will from my tap and a thousand other marvels unknown to my (mostly) Irish ancestors working in bog and field. If I moaned and complained about such ease and wealth, I expect they would turn in their graves.

[Sapphire]

Australia is still a subject of the English Queen. Although the kind lady does not interfere in our affairs and rarely visits our shores, there is a movement afoot to declare ourselves free of "English domination". Many of us ask why? Better the devil you know, than the one you don't. However, it is the same old story. Pride in one's own country and the achievements of one's countrymen. It holds the nation or rather the tribe together in a cohesive whole.

I think, however, we have strayed from the course a bit. I think, Theresa
spoke of individual pride, as opposed to pride in the achievements of one's ancestors. I think she advocated encouragement of one's pride in his/her own achievements. For example, an old gentleman died recently in Sydney. His obituary pointed out his great pride in his ancestry which went back to an English king, circa 1420. He, as an individual had achieved nothing, for nothing of any value was mentioned in his obituary. His only achievement in life was his ancestry going back 600 years.

Dear Agnes

You are right. Teresa was talking about something different, namely personal pride in one's ancestors, not national pride in a country's current achievements. I only mentioned the MSN study because some other posts had gone off in the latter direction.

I think if I were an Australian of British descent I would definitely like to retain the link to the Queen. I'm not some mad Royalist but I do much prefer our set-up to a presidential-based one with considerable power vested in the President. I think our Queen does the "job" brilliantly on the whole, given the family tensions she has had to put up.

On a recent trip to the USA I was struck by the hostility I found towards President Bush. It was everywhere I went, and I certainly did not go looking for it as I would most definitely be a very staunch Republican if I were a USA citizen. Strangely, I found myself arguing the Republican side on matters of foreign policy, even though I have grave concerns about Iraq (which I temporarily buried). On reflection, and seeing much the same polarisation here too, the amount of hostility towards the "top man" is worrying. Only in some of the worst days of Mrs Thatcher's Governments, who evoked more love/hate than any post-war PM, do I recall such a degree of open hostility towards the political head: with the "Poll Tax", Coal Miners' Strike, Falklands War. But somehow these tensions didn't seem quite so serious as, above it all, was the Queen who kept gracefully aloof and yet was still "there".

In short, I like our legal and political systems, and way of life, far too much ever to want to consider leaving these shores permanently. Even though I love foreign travel, and have done loads on behalf of HMG, it's always been a joy to come back to the UK, to the BBC, green fields, warm beer (which I don't drink but prefer the thought of to fizzy lager), haddock 'n'chips, tea at 4 pm.

There'll always be an England. Rule Britannia.

Regards



Saphire

[pizza]

There'll always be an England. Rule Britannia.

Possibly, as long as she doesn't encounter anything more threatening than Argentina, and while there's a USA to bail her out whenever the Huns come a-knocking!

[Ted]

Teresa Wrote:

And some of them happen to have come from Italy, which has a great (punctuated by awful) heritage, culturally and historically. But ought I to be proud, or on the other hand, ashamed, of simply having some genes from Italy?

That is a bizarre characterization of Italian Heritage Teresa
First of all 90% of all the art directors I have worked with in over 30 years in advertising are Italian.
Some of the best food in the world (Cooked by my wife or ordered in a restaurant) is Italian
And yes, once of the best Movies ever made is about an Italian family and the greatest singer of the American Songbook ever…..was Italian.
Not to mention some of my favorite people in the world
There’s a lot more to Italian Heritage than Tony Soprano (Although I love “The Sopranos”

[Ralph]

Australia is still a subject of the English Queen. Although the kind lady does not interfere in our affairs and rarely visits our shores, there is a movement afoot to declare ourselves free of "English domination". Many of us ask why? Better the devil you know, than the one you don't. However, it is the same old story. Pride in one's own country and the achievements of one's countrymen. It holds the nation or rather the tribe together in a cohesive whole.

I think, however, we have strayed from the course a bit. I think, Theresa
spoke of individual pride, as opposed to pride in the achievements of one's ancestors. I think she advocated encouragement of one's pride in his/her own achievements. For example, an old gentleman died recently in Sydney. His obituary pointed out his great pride in his ancestry which went back to an English king, circa 1420. He, as an individual had achieved nothing, for nothing of any value was mentioned in his obituary. His only achievement in life was his ancestry going back 600 years.

Dear Agnes

You are right. Teresa was talking about something different, namely personal pride in one's ancestors, not national pride in a country's current achievements. I only mentioned the MSN study because some other posts had gone off in the latter direction.

I think if I were an Australian of British descent I would definitely like to retain the link to the Queen. I'm not some mad Royalist but I do much prefer our set-up to a presidential-based one with considerable power vested in the President. I think our Queen does the "job" brilliantly on the whole, given the family tensions she has had to put up.

On a recent trip to the USA I was struck by the hostility I found towards President Bush. It was everywhere I went, and I certainly did not go looking for it as I would most definitely be a very staunch Republican if I were a USA citizen. Strangely, I found myself arguing the Republican side on matters of foreign policy, even though I have grave concerns about Iraq (which I temporarily buried). On reflection, and seeing much the same polarisation here too, the amount of hostility towards the "top man" is worrying. Only in some of the worst days of Mrs Thatcher's Governments, who evoked more love/hate than any post-war PM, do I recall such a degree of open hostility towards the political head: with the "Poll Tax", Coal Miners' Strike, Falklands War. But somehow these tensions didn't seem quite so serious as, above it all, was the Queen who kept gracefully aloof and yet was still "there".

In short, I like our legal and political systems, and way of life, far too much ever to want to consider leaving these shores permanently. Even though I love foreign travel, and have done loads on behalf of HMG, it's always been a joy to come back to the UK, to the BBC, green fields, warm beer (which I don't drink but prefer the thought of to fizzy lager), haddock 'n'chips, tea at 4 pm.

There'll always be an England. Rule Britannia.

Regards



Saphire

*****

I used to visit England every summer and haven't done so for decades. Like you, I prefer home but my love for England and its people is unbounded.

[Teresa B]

Teresa Wrote:

And some of them happen to have come from Italy, which has a great (punctuated by awful) heritage, culturally and historically. But ought I to be proud, or on the other hand, ashamed, of simply having some genes from Italy?

That is a bizarre characterization of Italian Heritage Teresa
First of all 90% of all the art directors I have worked with in over 30 years in advertising are Italian.
Some of the best food in the world (Cooked by my wife or ordered in a restaurant) is Italian
And yes, once of the best Movies ever made is about an Italian family and the greatest singer of the American Songbook ever…..was Italian.
Not to mention some of my favorite people in the world
There’s a lot more to Italian Heritage than Tony Soprano (Although I love “The Sopranos”

Hey, Ted, I said "great" punctuated by "awful." I meant to emphasize the great part. We can't ignore the Mafia, Mussolini, some nasty Catholic clergy during the Inquisition...but overall I would give Italy an A-plus in the culture/creativity department.

And truth be told, I even kinda like Tony Soprano, baddie that he is!

Teresa

[Ted]

Teresa, isn’t your Beethoven recital coming up?

[Teresa B]

Teresa, isn’t your Beethoven recital coming up?

Yes, thanks for asking, Ted! It is April 15. I am working hard on it, and I hope to do it even a little justice. It's a huge challenge. (But I love it )

Teresa

[MaestroDJS]

In fact, I submit we are every one of us Milky-Wayans--no, how about Universians?

Count me in:

Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

Here I am doing some yard work at our vacation home:


To be honest, I always try to bear in mind that although we are miracles of creation, we are also merest specks in this grand and glorious Universe. We humans often have very high opinions of ourselves, but if we didn't exist, the Universe would get along just fine without us.

[Agnes Selby]

Dear Saphire,

I agree with you on the subject of the Queen. In Australia, it is the future
King of England, King Charles, who has not won the popularity quest.
Although most people would prefer not to rock the boat, I honestly believe that once Prince Charles becomes king, Australia will become a Republic. I just hope they will work out the legal and statehood ramification better than they did a few years ago when the subject of a Republic was put to a referendum.

Kind regards,
Agnes.

[Teresa B]

In fact, I submit we are every one of us Milky-Wayans--no, how about Universians?

Count me in:

Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

Here I am doing some yard work at our vacation home:


To be honest, I always try to bear in mind that although we are miracles of creation, we are also merest specks in this grand and glorious Universe. We humans often have very high opinions of ourselves, but if we didn't exist, the Universe would get along just fine without us.

I had forgotten about your "location", Maestro. (So, how do you like your vacation home? It comes to mind that a lot of us would relish a vacation home in a place where we can eat all we want and actually lose weight immediately!)

And Agnes, my best wishes for Australia becoming a republic--but I keep getting the feeling the Queen is going to stick around in the throne until she is about 200, and poor old Charles is going to wither away on the vine.

Best,
Teresa

[Ted]

BTW

That is obviously a "doctored" photo

[DavidRoss]

"Is heritage all it's cracked up to be?"

What's it cracked up to be?

[Sapphire]

"Is heritage all it's cracked up to be?"

What's it cracked up to be?

Nuts!

[piston]

This nut is going to get cracked if it does not sell on ebay for 20,000 pounds. The building where it is located is being "renovated" into an apartment complex:


http://www.swisswatchstore.ripside.com/ ... CN0318.JPG


Absolute chance of a Life Time to Own a piece of Welsh History. This Superb Chapel or Church interior comes from Y Tabernacle in Powell Street Aberystwyth. Victorian period, Chapel was Rebuilt and Fitted in 1880, The Organ came later, build completed on site in 1905.

The Site was recently acquired by a local property development company, who are would dearly like to save this beautiful piece of Architectural Magnificents. The contents, which is extensively photographed below consists of:-

Wonderful Harrison & Harrison of Durham Pipe Organ, Built in 1905, Complete and 100% Functional

All the Wooden Features are of Pitch Pine, Wrought Clear and Varnished, Constructed in 1880

Still in Fantastic Condition

Seating Pews for 1200 Worshippers, Extensively Ornamented Wooden Balustrade, Pulpit and Deacons Pew

Vast Pitch Pine Floor Boarding

An offer has already been submitted, purely for the material worth, but I would like to give this some mileage to the world wide audience we enjoy here on Ebay.

[DavidRoss]

Is it really meaningful to describe ourselves as "Italian-American", "African-American," "French-Vietnamese", etc?

Yes, very. It's devisive and exclusionary and a source of conflict between nations sharing a common polity.