Chief: Gunman kills at least 21 at Virginia Tech

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Chief: Gunman kills at least 21 at Virginia Tech

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:06 pm

(CNN) -- A lone gunman is dead after police said he killed at least 21 people Monday during twin shootings on the Virginia Tech campus -- the worst school shooting incident in U.S. history.

"Some victims were shot in a classroom," university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said during a news conference in Blacksburg.

Police believe there was only one gunman, Flinchum said.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university President Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified." (Map of Blacksburg)

The shootings mark the deadliest school shooting incident in U.S. history, topping attacks at Columbine High School in 1999 and at the University of Texas in 1966.

The Associated Press quoted officials saying more than 20 people were wounded. A hospital spokeswoman told AP that 17 Virginia Tech students were being treated for gunshot wounds and other injuries.

Sharon Honaker at the Carilion New River Valley Medical Center in nearby Christiansburg, Virginia, told CNN that four patients had been transported there, one in critical condition.

One person was killed and others were wounded at multiple locations inside a dormitory about 7:15 a.m., Flinchum said. Two hours later, another shooting at Norris Hall, the engineering science and mechanics building, resulted in multiple casualties, the university reported. (Campus map)

The first reported shooting occurred at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a four-story coed dormitory that houses 895 students. The dormitory, one of the largest residence halls on the 2,600-acre campus, is located near the drill field and stadium.

Amie Steele, editor-in-chief of the campus newspaper, said one of her reporters at the dormitory reported "mass chaos."

The reporter said there were "lots of students running around, going crazy, and the police officers were trying to settle everyone down and keep everything under control," according to Steele. (Watch police, ambulances hustle to the scene )

Kristyn Heiser said she was in class about 9:30 a.m. when she and her classmates saw about six gun-wielding police officers run by a window.

"We were like, 'What's going on?' Because this definitely is a quaint town where stuff doesn't really happen. It's pretty boring here," said Heiser during a phone interview as she sat on her classroom floor.
Student reports 'mayhem'

Student Matt Waldron said he did not hear the gunshots because he was listening to music, but he heard police sirens and saw officers hiding behind trees with their guns drawn.

"They told us to get out of there so we ran across the drill field as quick as we could," he said.

Waldron described the scene on campus as "mayhem." (Watch a student's recording of police responding to loud bangs )

"It was kind of scary," he said. "These two kids I guess had panicked and jumped out of the top-story window and the one kid broke his ankle and the other girl was not in good shape just lying on the ground."

Madison Van Duyne said she and her classmates in a media writing class were on "lockdown" in their classrooms. They were huddled in the middle of the classroom, writing stories about the shootings and posting them online.

The university is updating its more than 26,000 students through e-mails, and an Internet webcam is broadcasting live pictures of the campus.

The shootings came three days after a bomb threat Friday forced the cancellation of classes in three buildings, WDBJ in Roanoke reported. Also, the 100,000-square-foot Torgersen Hall was evacuated April 2 after police received a written bomb threat, The Roanoke Times reported.

Last August, the first day of classes was cut short by a manhunt after an escaped prisoner was accused of killing a security guard at a Blacksburg hospital and a sheriff's deputy.

After the Monday shootings, students were instructed to stay indoors and away from windows, police at the university said. (Watch the police chief explain where bodies were found )

"Virginia Tech has canceled all classes. Those on campus are asked to remain where they are, lock their doors and stay away from windows. Persons off campus are asked not to come to campus," a statement on the university Web site said.

Before Monday, the deadliest school shootings came in 1966 and 1999.

In the former, Charles Joseph Whitman, a 25-year-old ex-Marine, killed 13 people on the University of Texas campus. He was killed by police.

In 1999, 17-year-old Dylan Klebold and 18-year-old Eric Harris -- armed with guns and pipe bombs -- killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech. ... index.html
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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:54 pm

:roll: Here we go again.
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Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:19 pm

Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
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Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:31 pm

living_stradivarius Wrote:
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? :wink:
So in light of these terrible events you deem it OK to make light of these terrible events—I don’t know who to pity more, the victims and their families or you

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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:33 pm

Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Sadly, that was my first thought, too.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:46 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
I wasn't referring to the thread. I was referring to the inevitable high-decible whining for gun control that aways follows one of these episodes. It's too damn bad that the VaTech campus was a "gun free" zone. Maybe someone could have stopped the killer before he killed 32 people while the corpulent cartoons that pass for campus police decided what to do about the situation.
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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:47 pm

I had to do a quick calculation to make sure that my former It's Academic team captain who went to Tech must already have graduated.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:13 pm

Ted wrote:living_stradivarius Wrote:
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? :wink:
So in light of these terrible events you deem it OK to make light of these terrible events—I don’t know who to pity more, the victims and their families or you
The events speak for themselves. Nobody is making light of them.
Image

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:26 pm

I was initially taken a back by your use of the :wink: --it seemed inappropriate--maybe I overreacted and maybe you should have been a bit more demure--end of rant

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Post by RebLem » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:03 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
I wasn't referring to the thread. I was referring to the inevitable high-decible whining for gun control that aways follows one of these episodes. It's too damn bad that the VaTech campus was a "gun free" zone. Maybe someone could have stopped the killer before he killed 32 people while the corpulent cartoons that pass for campus police decided what to do about the situation.
Relax, Corlyss. We know that Shakespeare and Berlioz, Byrd and Britten, have no charms to soothe. Life for many Americans would be absolutely meaningless without their Uzis and Mac 9's, and the rest of us will just have to buck up and die for your alleged right to keep your precious toys.
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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:15 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
I wasn't referring to the thread. I was referring to the inevitable high-decible whining for gun control that aways follows one of these episodes. It's too damn bad that the VaTech campus was a "gun free" zone. Maybe someone could have stopped the killer before he killed 32 people while the corpulent cartoons that pass for campus police decided what to do about the situation.
I hate to be the one to say this, but if Strad's remark was not insensitive, then Corlyss' which prompted it is.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by pizza » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:23 pm

RebLem wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
I wasn't referring to the thread. I was referring to the inevitable high-decible whining for gun control that aways follows one of these episodes. It's too damn bad that the VaTech campus was a "gun free" zone. Maybe someone could have stopped the killer before he killed 32 people while the corpulent cartoons that pass for campus police decided what to do about the situation.
Relax, Corlyss. We know that Shakespeare and Berlioz, Byrd and Britten, have no charms to soothe. Life for many Americans would be absolutely meaningless without their Uzis and Mac 9's, and the rest of us will just have to buck up and die for your alleged right to keep your precious toys.
Explosive devices would have done the same or worse. When a maniac is bent on destroying people, there are plenty of other weapons to choose from that are deadlier and easier to obtain than firearms.

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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:27 pm

RebLem wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
I wasn't referring to the thread. I was referring to the inevitable high-decible whining for gun control that aways follows one of these episodes. It's too damn bad that the VaTech campus was a "gun free" zone. Maybe someone could have stopped the killer before he killed 32 people while the corpulent cartoons that pass for campus police decided what to do about the situation.
Relax, Corlyss. We know that Shakespeare and Berlioz, Byrd and Britten, have no charms to soothe. Life for many Americans would be absolutely meaningless without their Uzis and Mac 9's, and the rest of us will just have to buck up and die for your alleged right to keep your precious toys.
Or we'll buck up and die for the government's alleged right to remove an efficient means of self defense and leave criminals with the use of that said means all so people can have a false sense of security and feel safer while the crime rates skyrocket. :D It's fun to live in a peaceful utopia with violence going on everywhere outside one's door.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:37 pm

RebLem wrote:Life for many Americans would be absolutely meaningless without their Uzis and Mac 9's, and the rest of us will just have to buck up and die for your alleged right to keep your precious toys.
:roll: You and John be sure and alert me as well as the media the minute you have evidence that gun control stops these kinds of events. I will wait right here for you . . . .
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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:42 pm

jbuck919 wrote: if Strad's remark was not insensitive, then Corlyss' which prompted it is.
:roll: I tremble. I'm being insensitive again. Quick. Call the Thought Police.

What's insensitive about lamenting the fact that had the campus not been a well advertised "gun free zone" the shooter might have had reservations about going there? As it was, he knew, between the lethargic blimps (Campus Cops) and the defenseless students, he would be able to work uninterrupted. Never would have happened in Sarasota.
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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:50 pm

I'm going to disagree with the idea that he went for this place specifically because he knew he would have sitting ducks waiting for him. This sort of thing is generally related to psychological issues that a person has so I'm assuming that he had some ties with that school and at least some of the people there.

That said, the conditions there still made his job one hell of a lot easier.

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Post by anasazi » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:52 pm

Although I don't even think it right to argue talking-head points after such a tragedy, I will say this Corlyss, I will not play by the rules of having to arm myself with a weapon of destruction. I'm a pianist, not a gunman. And neither should a student at a U.S. University have to arm themselves.

Please just leave the sancrosant arguments about amendments to the politicians. It's time now to play a hymn tune for the victims now. Take your finger off that trigger and apply it to the string, the key or the mallet.
"Take only pictures, leave only footprints" - John Muir.

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Post by Barry » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:04 pm

anasazi wrote:Although I don't even think it right to argue talking-head points after such a tragedy, I will say this Corlyss, I will not play by the rules of having to arm myself with a weapon of destruction. I'm a pianist, not a gunman. And neither should a student at a U.S. University have to arm themselves.

Please just leave the sancrosant arguments about amendments to the politicians. It's time now to play a hymn tune for the victims now. Take your finger off that trigger and apply it to the string, the key or the mallet.
Utopian dreams aside, without taking any stance here, I think it's fair to point out that Corlyss wants voluntary arming of civillians; not mandatory. I've never heard even the most extreme NRA higher ups call for mandatory arming of the public.
I don't know whether in the long run it would cause more or fewer deaths to make it easier for people to get and carry guns, but it sure would have saved lives in this particular case if someone with an opportunity to take a shot at the nut in Virginia before his number of victims escalated to higher numbers would have had a gun.
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Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:42 pm

I think it's fair to point out that Corlyss wants voluntary arming of civilians; not mandatory.
Oh I see! I get it now


Barry.. have I told you lately that you have several screws loose :wink:

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Post by RebLem » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:45 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote::roll: Here we go again.
Whoever said this was going to be a thread about gun control? ;)
I wasn't referring to the thread. I was referring to the inevitable high-decible whining for gun control that aways follows one of these episodes. It's too damn bad that the VaTech campus was a "gun free" zone. Maybe someone could have stopped the killer before he killed 32 people while the corpulent cartoons that pass for campus police decided what to do about the situation.
NO MORE GUN FREE ZONES AT SCHOOLS. Arm both the Prgressive Labor Party AND the Young Republicans. Yeah, that's the ticket!

And, especially, arm the teachers and the students at Amish schools.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
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Post by Barry » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:10 pm

Ted wrote:
I think it's fair to point out that Corlyss wants voluntary arming of civilians; not mandatory.
Oh I see! I get it now


Barry.. have I told you lately that you have several screws loose :wink:
Yes, Ted. And I always consider the irony of the source :wink: .
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

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Post by Ralph » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:14 pm

McCain backs gun rights after shootings
4/16/2007, 8:55 p.m. ET
By ELIZABETH WHITE
The Associated Press

LAREDO, Texas (AP) — Sen. John McCain says the shooting rampage at Virginia Tech does not change his view that the Constitution guarantees everyone the right to carry a weapon.

"We have to look at what happened here, but it doesn't change my views on the Second Amendment, except to make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad people," McCain said Monday in response to a question.

The Arizona Republican, who was campaigning in this Texas-Mexico border city, said he didn't know the details of the attacks at Virginia Tech.

"I do believe in the constitutional right that everyone has, in the Second Amendment to the Constitution, to carry a weapon," he said. "Obviously we have to keep guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens."

McCain and other presidential hopefuls issued statements expressing shock and grief over the attacks.

"As a parent, I am filled with sorrow for the mothers and fathers and loved ones struggling with the sudden, unbearable news of a lost son or daughter, friend or family member," read a statement by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a Republican, called it a "day of national tragedy, when we lost some of our finest to a senseless act." Giuliani canceled all his campaign events for Tuesday.

Democratic candidate John Edwards said in a statement: "We are simply heartbroken by the deaths and injuries suffered at Virginia Tech. We know what an unspeakable, life-changing moment this is for these families and how, in this moment, it is hard to feel anything but overwhelming grief, much less the love and support around you. But the love and support is there."

Republican candidate Mitt Romney said: "The entire nation grieves for the victims of this terrible tragedy that took place today on the campus of Virginia Tech. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families and the entire Virginia Tech community. Our full support is behind the law enforcement officials who are involved with stabilizing the situation and conducting an investigation."

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., said the nation is mourning the dead and praying for their families and for the wounded.

"Today, we are a grieving and shocked nation. Violence has once again taken too many young people from this world."
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Post by Barry » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:33 pm

As I said, I don't have a firm position on this issue. I've always been more in favor of putting limits on gun buying, all the way up to a total ban in my younger years.
But I'm of the mind now, as on foreign policy, that what is most important is what works best in minimizing violent crime. If it turns out it can be statistically demonstrated that putting more legal limitations on possessing guns will in fact reduce violent crime, then I'm all for it. But on the other hand, if pro-gun rights people can provide evidence that making it easier for law-abiding citizens to possess guns will reduce violent crime, then I don't think some notion that guns are inherently evil and must be restricted as a matter of moral principle should carry the day over what actually works best.

Having said that, I know both sides prevent loads of data to support their argument, and I don't have the patients to sort through it all. I only have a few big issues in me that determine who I vote for, and gun regulation isn't one of them. I just think that as a general principal, what can be demonstrated to work best to achieve the desired goal should take presedence over moral notions that make us feel good, but aren't always grounded in reality.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:13 pm

Barry Z wrote:As I said, I don't have a firm position on this issue. I've always been more in favor of putting limits on gun buying, all the way up to a total ban in my younger years.
But I'm of the mind now, as on foreign policy, that what is most important is what works best in minimizing violent crime. If it turns out it can be statistically demonstrated that putting more legal limitations on possessing guns will in fact reduce violent crime, then I'm all for it. But on the other hand, if pro-gun rights people can provide evidence that making it easier for law-abiding citizens to possess guns will reduce violent crime, then I don't think some notion that guns are inherently evil and must be restricted as a matter of moral principle should carry the day over what actually works best.

Having said that, I know both sides prevent loads of data to support their argument, and I don't have the patients to sort through it all. I only have a few big issues in me that determine who I vote for, and gun regulation isn't one of them. I just think that as a general principal, what can be demonstrated to work best to achieve the desired goal should take presedence over moral notions that make us feel good, but aren't always grounded in reality.
Spoken like a true son of the Philadelphia Inquirer (or any other US newspaper that feels obliged to present both sides no matter how ridiculous one may be in order to keep away the firebombers).

For your next number, how about "are there angels"?

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Post by pizza » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:55 am

The Israeli experience proves beyond any serious question that having arms available in the hands of ordinary people trained in their proper use works to prevent these crimes and to reduce their magnitude when they do occur. That's why most similar attacks in crowded Israeli areas have been perpetrated by suicide bombers wearing concealed explosive vests rather than by firearms. This guy could just as easily have thrown a few grenades or pipe bombs and accomplished the same or worse. He could have been stopped in his tracks by someone with a gun who was properly trained in its use.

Israelis don't go around indiscriminately shooting one another just because they have guns available for self-defense. Neither would Americans.

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Post by Opus132 » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:52 am

It says in the article he was a foreign visitor. How long had he been living in the states? I just assumed those shootings were related to the way those kids were brought up at home, but this guy wasn't even American. This seems to point out that whatever it is that drives those people to madness, it's somehow related to their scholastic experience. I'd really like to know what goes on in those places...

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:53 am

JB Writes
Spoken like a true son of the Philadelphia Inquirer
Have to agree with ya John

I wish I had a dollar for every time Barry writes “Having said that” Never have I seen anyone ride the fence of equivocation like our friend from Philly

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:24 am

“…..Was an Asian Man”
That’s a direct quote from NBC News
It seems nobody realizes that referring to the VA Tech gunman’s race is totally unnecessary and like all race references ultimately divisive.

Were he on the loose and there was a manhunt underway, yes then the Asian description would be appropriate but now—what’s the point

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Post by JackC » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am

Ted wrote:
“…..Was an Asian Man”
That’s a direct quote from NBC News
It seems nobody realizes that referring to the VA Tech gunman’s race is totally unnecessary and like all race references ultimately divisive.

Were he on the loose and there was a manhunt underway, yes then the Asian description would be appropriate but now—what’s the point
The point is full information. There will be a lot of work done in analyzing who this shooter was and what his motives were. I'm not suggesting it, but what if HIS motives were racial?

One of the chief fears in the US is that Islamic terror will take this form of expression, either through had guns, machine guns or bombs. When there is a mass killing like this, are were permitted to ask/know whether the shooter was a Muslim?? or is that that too "divisive"?

The fact is that tragic as this shooting is, there are shootings across cities in the US every day and night.

This has to with our culture and, to me, race is an important aspect of this. The overwhelming number of deaths in th US is the result of black on black violence.

If you don't know the race of the shooters, you aren't going to understand the nature of the problem. Insisting that race not be mentioned because it is "divisive" seems to me to be deliberately closing your eyes to important, relevant information.

I suspect that noboby that is seriously studying violence in the US would agree with you that we should not keep track of the race of perpetrators.

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Post by Barry » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:53 am

Ted wrote:JB Writes
Spoken like a true son of the Philadelphia Inquirer
Have to agree with ya John

I wish I had a dollar for every time Barry writes “Having said that” Never have I seen anyone ride the fence of equivocation like our friend from Philly
I've got like three or four issues I care deeply about. And I have strong views on those. The rest of the issues that come up in politics and media I just try to keep an open mind on. I feel no obligation to have a black or white view on issues I haven't studied seriously.

One of the absurdities of your view on the war, Ted, is that you seem to think that if someone was against the war at the start, he's obligated to fight it tooth and nail to the bitter end (I had a tough time making up my mind before the Iraq invasion because I thought there were strong reasons both for and against it, but I eventually did come down against it). Circumstances on the ground change. Being glued to a position that was based on circumstances that no longer exist doesn't make sense. My position at this point is less pro-war than anti-what will happen if we leave. I know that's not as plain and simple as Bush is a moron. But for some of us, that's not the answer to every issue :wink: .
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:58 am

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment Jack, but in cases that are not as monumental as this one I still maintain that as long as we harp on tribal and territorial type distinctions that invariably bring racial distinctions into play we will be perpetually plagued by racism

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:00 am

Barry I just love baiting you (as I know you do me) :wink:

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Post by Barry » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:05 am

Ted wrote:Barry I just love baiting you (as I know you do me) :wink:
You're just better at it :lol: .
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

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jack stowaway
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Post by jack stowaway » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:43 pm

I am grimly awaiting news of a copy-cat shooting --and not just in the US.

These horrific incidents seem to 'inspire' similar occurences in the unlikeliest locales - anywhere there lurks a malcontent nursing a sense of grievance.

Harvested Sorrow
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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:15 pm

jack stowaway wrote:I am grimly awaiting news of a copy-cat shooting --and not just in the US.

These horrific incidents seem to 'inspire' similar occurences in the unlikeliest locales - anywhere there lurks a malcontent nursing a sense of grievance.
This is entirely possible. Whether people care to admit it or not, the more emphasis we put on events like this, the more likely people are to decide to go out with a bang, so to speak.

Maybe those newspapers that refuse to report suicides for fear of encouraging them are onto something with that sort of idea, actually.

Kevin R
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Post by Kevin R » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:35 am

What an unspeakable tragedy.

We will never know if armed administrators could have prevented this from occurring. However, we do know what happened when there were no armed individuals to stand in his way. Although it is pure speculation, I have to wonder what would have happened if 3 or 4 individuals (administrators or instructors) had been armed when this animal went into the second building. Possibly nothing would have changed, but perhaps an armed instructor could have killed him before he took so many innocent lives.

That this tragedy has become a plea for gun control is ludicrous. The more guns=more homicide mantra that liberals (and many conservatives) preach is nonsense. The evidence shows that that is simply not true, but I'm sure we will continue to hear such refrains in the future.
"Free trade, one of the greatest blessings which a government can confer on a people, is in almost every country unpopular."

-Thomas Macaulay

living_stradivarius
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Post by living_stradivarius » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:38 pm

Ted wrote:
“…..Was an Asian Man”
That’s a direct quote from NBC News
It seems nobody realizes that referring to the VA Tech gunman’s race is totally unnecessary and like all race references ultimately divisive.

Were he on the loose and there was a manhunt underway, yes then the Asian description would be appropriate but now—what’s the point
From CNN:
The gun owner who sold him the Glock 9 mm, one of the guns used in the rampage at Norris, said the resident alien from South Korea easily passed a background check last month before purchasing the weapon.
Image

erinmr
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Post by erinmr » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:53 pm

This is not a gun control issue, or any other kind of weapons control issue - it is a heart issue. For whatever reason, this young man (I use that term very loosely) was filled with hate and had no respect for human beings as a creation of God. Therefore, the person who sold him the gun is not responsible, VTech's security (or lack thereof) is not responsible, the lawmakers are not respnsible. HE is responsible for the friut of his actions, rooted in hate.

~Erin

SaulChanukah

Post by SaulChanukah » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:45 pm

pizza wrote: Israelis don't go around indiscriminately shooting one another just because they have guns available for self-defense. Neither would Americans.
Wrong statement.

pizza
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Post by pizza » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:00 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote: Israelis don't go around indiscriminately shooting one another just because they have guns available for self-defense. Neither would Americans.
Wrong statement.
There are two statements. The first statement is fact and can be proven statistically by comparison with data concerning other countries. The second is a matter of opinion.

SaulChanukah

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:54 am

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote: Israelis don't go around indiscriminately shooting one another just because they have guns available for self-defense. Neither would Americans.
Wrong statement.
There are two statements. The first statement is fact and can be proven statistically by comparison with data concerning other countries. The second is a matter of opinion.
Israelis are like one big family, they are Jews and they are bound with their religion, nation and ethnicity. In the U.S they are just bound by their shared citizenship but not by their religious and ethnic identity, therefore the likelihood of Americans shooting each other is much higher.

pizza
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Post by pizza » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:17 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote: Israelis don't go around indiscriminately shooting one another just because they have guns available for self-defense. Neither would Americans.
Wrong statement.
There are two statements. The first statement is fact and can be proven statistically by comparison with data concerning other countries. The second is a matter of opinion.
Israelis are like one big family, they are Jews and they are bound with their religion, nation and ethnicity. In the U.S they are just bound by their shared citizenship but not by their religious and ethnic identity, therefore the likelihood of Americans shooting each other is much higher.
If you think Israelis don't have short fuses, you haven't been around them lately. It may be similar to a big family but it ain't one big HAPPY family by a long shot. (no pun intended). People aren't at all shy about letting off steam and that may be one of the reasons why grudges and hatreds don't accumulate and finally explode.

As far as religious and ethnic identity are concerned, I don't see that as much of a causative factor concerning American violence. Catholics aren't more likely to shoot Protestants or vice-versa, nor are blacks more likely to shoot whites. If anything, black on black violence is more often the case.

Donald Isler
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Post by Donald Isler » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:23 am

Yigal Amir didn't feel like a happy member of Prime Minister Rabin's family.
Donald Isler

pizza
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Post by pizza » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:37 am

Donald Isler wrote:Yigal Amir didn't feel like a happy member of Prime Minister Rabin's family.
Many others didn't feel that way either but they didn't resort to violence. Political assassination isn't an issue here. Anyway, Amir got close enough to Rabin to have stabbed him to death.

SaulChanukah

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:27 am

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote: Israelis don't go around indiscriminately shooting one another just because they have guns available for self-defense. Neither would Americans.
Wrong statement.
There are two statements. The first statement is fact and can be proven statistically by comparison with data concerning other countries. The second is a matter of opinion.
Israelis are like one big family, they are Jews and they are bound with their religion, nation and ethnicity. In the U.S they are just bound by their shared citizenship but not by their religious and ethnic identity, therefore the likelihood of Americans shooting each other is much higher.
If you think Israelis don't have short fuses, you haven't been around them lately. It may be similar to a big family but it ain't one big HAPPY family by a long shot. (no pun intended). People aren't at all shy about letting off steam and that may be one of the reasons why grudges and hatreds don't accumulate and finally explode.

As far as religious and ethnic identity are concerned, I don't see that as much of a causative factor concerning American violence. Catholics aren't more likely to shoot Protestants or vice-versa, nor are blacks more likely to shoot whites. If anything, black on black violence is more often the case.
I disagree.

Regards,

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