Sarah Palin: Pros and Cons [Thread Retitled]

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Kevin R
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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by Kevin R » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:50 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:A MILF we can believe in
:shock: Maybe GILF is more appropriate :wink:
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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by BWV 1080 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:58 pm

Kevin R wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote:A MILF we can believe in
:shock: Maybe GILF is more appropriate :wink:
As long as it does not come to be PILF

Madame
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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by Madame » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:41 pm

rwetmore wrote:I'm not that crazy about the pick. He should have gone with by far the safest choice - Pawlenty. There was no need to take a chance with someone like Palin, IMO. I also think the idea that undecided women will vote for McCain just because there is woman on the ticket is folly (not to mention insulting to women).
Safest choice? Safe means electable. Nobody even knows him.

I think that thinking McCain put her on the ticket primarily to get the women's vote is folly.

I can hear the paradigms beginning to shift. BO wants change? Well, here it is.

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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by stenka razin » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:38 pm

Why didn't McCain choose Governor Crist of Florida? :idea:
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DavidRoss
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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by DavidRoss » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:40 pm

I'm interested in learning more about Ms Palin. She seems like an interesting character with some sane values, the gumption to root out corruption in her own Party, and she's surely no Washington insider...and (praise the Lord!!!) she's not a lawyer! It's a very gutsy and unexpected pick that reinforces McCain's maverick status, and if she is as competent, independent, down-to-earth, and feisty as her record suggests, then she may prove to be a brilliant choice. It's looking like the progressive West (rural, independent, conservative) against the regressive East (urban, party-bound, liberal--in the current sense, certainly not in the traditional sense).

The Republicans now have two nominees who really are outside of their Party's mainstream--in high contrast to the Democrats' team of Party insiders--and who really have bucked the status quo--unlike their opposition who, despite all the hollow rhetoric to the contrary, have never challenged party orthodoxy and who continue to push partisan interest-group politics as usual. Also, I'll wager that already most people are wincing every time a liberal denigrates Palin as too inexperienced for the vice presidency, for that charge only highlights Obama's inexperience which makes him even less qualified for the Presidency. And so-called feminists who supported the carpet-bagging, coattail-riding Hillary just because of her gender should be far more enthusiastic about Palin, for she has earned her credentials on her own in head-to-head contests with the Party bosses in her state. And neither Hillary nor Obama nor Biden has any real experience running anything (except for Hillary's disastrous stint as Health Czar), whereas Palin has run the executive branches of government of both a small town and a big state (big in area if not in population :D ).

In short, it's a brilliant move at this time, turning the election on its ear and issuing notice to several constituencies that it's time to put up or shut up. Whether it still seems brilliant a week, two months, or two years from now will depend largely upon Ms Palin and her ability to make her own case before the American public.

What a great election year! For the first time in my life, I almost feel that no matter what happens we can't lose. Sure beats the hell out of Carter-Ford or Bush-Gore!
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

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Teresa B
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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by Teresa B » Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:26 pm

I think McCain's choice of Palin is great--personally I think she is going to be such a disaster, the Dems will end up with the advantage. :)

Teresa
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Re: Sarah Palin Republican VEEP Choice

Post by BWV 1080 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:27 pm

Looks like she has some pastor issues of her own, people have been linking her church and pastor to this group:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelrep ... sp?aid=964
, Fla. — Todd Bentley has a long night ahead of him, resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, and exploding cancerous tumors. Since April 3, the 32-year-old, heavily tattooed, body-pierced, shaved-head Canadian preacher has been leading a continuous "supernatural healing revival" in central Florida. To contain the 10,000-plus crowds flocking from around the globe, Bentley has rented baseball stadiums, arenas and airport hangars at a cost of up to $15,000 a day. Many in attendance are church pastors themselves who believe Bentley to be a prophet and don't bat an eye when he tells them he's seen King David and spoken with the Apostle Paul in heaven. "He was looking very Jewish," Bentley notes.

Tattooed across his sternum are military dog tags that read "Joel's Army." They're evidence of Bentley's generalship in a rapidly growing apocalyptic movement that's gone largely unnoticed by watchdogs of the theocratic right. According to Bentley and a handful of other "hyper-charismatic" preachers advancing the same agenda, Joel's Army is prophesied to become an Armageddon-ready military force of young people with a divine mandate to physically impose Christian "dominion" on non-believers.



"An end-time army has one common purpose — to aggressively take ground for the kingdom of God under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Dread Champion," Bentley declares on the website for his ministry school in British Columbia, Canada. "The trumpet is sounding, calling on-fire, revolutionary believers to enlist in Joel's Army. … Many are now ready to be mobilized to establish and advance God's kingdom on earth."

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Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:55 pm

Democrats are afraid . . . very afraid. She polls very well among the PUMAs and the Reagan Democrats and the Alaska AFL-CIO Image her. She shoots better than Cheney, hunts in the wild, not a game reservation, and is married to a Yup'ik Eskimo (I'm surprised Piston hasn't told us this by now! Oh wait! This is a Republican family - that means it doesn't count, right Piston?)

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The Palin Family


Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

By STEVE QUINN • ASSOCIATED PRESS • August 29, 2008

The following story ran in the Free Press on Dec. 28., 2007.

JUNEAU, Alaska - In her first year as governor, Sarah Palin has plunged ahead with the fearlessness of a polar explorer.
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The populist Republican has raised taxes on the oil industry. She has pushed through ethics legislation amid a burgeoning corruption investigation of Alaska lawmakers. She has bucked her party's old guard. And she has ordered her administration to seek fewer congressional earmarks after Alaska's so-called Bridge to Nowhere became a national symbol of piggish pork-barrel spending.

The 43-year-old governor also has emerged as a national figure and a media darling, posing recently for Vogue magazine.

Alaska's first female governor says it is her responsibility to be available even to fashion magazines if it can help change the state's reputation for graft and gluttony at the public trough.

"We've got to make sure the rest of the United States doesn't believe the only thing going on in Alaska is FBI probes and corruption trials," Palin said.
Breaking stereotypes

Palin has dismissed speculation she might leave Juneau for higher office before her term expires in 2010, saying, "My role as governor is where I can be most helpful right now unless something drastic happens, and I don't anticipate that right now."

Nevertheless, John Pitney Jr., a political scientist at Claremont McKenna College in California and former analyst for congressional Republicans, said Palin could be an ideal presidential running mate.

"What separates her from others is that at a time when Republicans have suffered from the taint of corruption, she represents clean politics," Pitney said.

"The public stereotype of Republican is a wrinkled old guy taking cash under the table," he said. "One way for Republicans to break the stereotype is with a female reformer."

Party labels seem to mean little to Palin. Her revenue commissioner is a Democrat. Her husband, Todd, a blue-collar worker on Alaska's oil-rich North Slope, is an independent.
Tackling her agenda

The former mayor of the Anchorage suburb of Wasilla ran on ethics reform in trouncing Gov. Frank Murkowski in the GOP primary. In the general election, she handily beat the Democrat, former Gov. Tony Knowles.

She immediately took on the state's most lucrative industry, questioning whether Alaska - which gets about 85% of its revenue from big oil - is getting its fair share of the oil companies' billions of dollars in quarterly profits.

She got what she wanted from the GOP-controlled Legislature. Relying heavily on Democratic votes, she won approval last month to boost taxes on oil company profits from 22.5% to 25%. That could bring in an additional $1.6 billion annually for the state.

On the same day a former Alaska lawmaker was convicted on federal bribery charges, Palin signed an ethics reform bill into law.

Since then, two more former lawmakers have been found guilty of bribery related to VECO Corp., an oil field contractor. Another former lawmaker awaits trial, and U.S. Sen. Ted Stevens and U.S. Rep. Don Young, both Republicans, are under investigation.
Stirring the pot

Palin's climb is happening without the backing of the state Republican Party, led by Randy Ruedrich. In 2004, as chairwoman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, Palin exposed Ruedrich for ethics violations when he was a fellow commissioner.

She also has made trouble for the party's establishment by calling on Stevens to give the public an explanation of why federal agents have raided his Alaska home in the investigation of his ties to VECO's founder.

"I don't sweat it at all that the partisanship isn't playing a big part of my agenda," Palin said. "What that tells me is this: that I'm on the right track, and that it hasn't stopped us."

Find this article at:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 5/80829045
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:40 pm

Diminishing Palin
How the left will try.
by Dean Barnett
08/31/2008 12:00:00 AM


In 1981, former Harry Truman consigliere and LBJ Secretary of Defense Clark Clifford memorably labeled the new Republican sheriff in town an "amiable dunce." At the time, Clifford was the living embodiment of the Washington establishment, and his glib analysis showed that while you can find the occasional memorable phrase on the D.C. cocktail circuit, facile conclusions delight the crowd more than serious inquiry. It comes as no small irony that in the years that followed, the discovery of Reagan's voluminous private writings revealed him to be the finest writer and most original political philosopher to sit in the Oval Office since at least Theodore Roosevelt. As for the condescending genius Mr. Clifford, he ended up the 1980s enmeshed in the BCCI scandal, thanks largely to his own confusion. At least that's how he told the story, complaining to the New York Times, "I have a choice of seeming either stupid or venal." Clifford opted for the former.

However obtuse, Clifford's summation of Reagan sat on the cutting edge of a new school of political partisanship. Starting with Gerald Ford, the inside-the-beltway class and its amplifiers in the media have routinely decided that Republicans who seek national office are dullards. Literally every Republican candidate for president since 1980 has had his intellect belittled. Even Bob Dole, a candidate who had spent decades proving his remarkable mental acuity in Congress, had to face such salvos because his age had allegedly dulled his mental edge. Sound vaguely familiar?

Of course, no such scrutiny greets Democratic candidates. Barack Obama can't make it through a 30 second extemporaneous statement on his campaign bus without a profusion of "ums" and "ahs." And yet Obama's stumbling diction has yet to interest his worshippers in the press the way that George H.W. Bush's periodic wrestling matches with the English language did. For those fortunate enough to have forgotten the 1988 presidential race, Michael Dukakis's principal talking point was that he was more competent, i.e. more intelligent, than Bush.

During the 2004 campaign, the New York Times's Howell Raines wrote, "Does anyone in America doubt that Kerry has a higher IQ than (George W.) Bush? I'm sure the candidates' SATs and college transcripts would put Kerry far ahead." Of course, Raines could have done some research before making such a sweeping statement, but that wouldn't have been nearly as enjoyable. Take it from one who knows--polemicizing is much more fun and much less work than analyzing.

If Raines had bothered with research, he would have found he was wrong on all counts. Kerry's college transcript which included four D's in his freshman year at Yale was a special embarrassment given that candidate Kerry had boasted about his serious pursuit of scholarship compared to the president's frat-boy frivolities. But in Raines's defense, how could he have known that research was necessary? Everyone understood that Kerry possessed a blazing intellect while Bush was some village's missing idiot. Everyone among the self-satisfied liberal media, anyway.

The pattern continues. When Barack Obama trotted out Washington warhorse Joe Biden as his vice presidential pick, the media immediately clucked "gravitas" and "experience." Okay, we can't deny the "experience" angle, as Biden has occupied a Senate seat since Obama was 11 years old. But one would think that "gravitas" would imply a political record noteworthy for more than just its length. Guys like Sam Nunn are respected by members of both parties; during his long stay in the senate, Nunn was always serious and often correct. Until Barack Obama plucked him out of tiny Delaware, Joe Biden's principal renown was for talking too much and saying too little.

And yet the media has credulously treated Biden as a serious figure, a courtesy they did not extend him during either of his presidential runs. One can only imagine how inquisitive reporters would handle a Republican nominee for vice-president who graduated 86th in his law school class of 95 as Biden did. As for Biden's unfortunate history with plagiarism, the less said the better. At least that seems to be the media's view now that he's on the ticket. Somehow I doubt that 36 years in the senate would wash away such stains for a Republican. Speaking of 36 years, that's almost the exact length of time that Joe Biden has also served as a garrulous gaffe machine. And yet no one from the New York Times or Washington Post has yet mined his greatest hits and reported the comedy gold that lurks within.

Of course, Sarah Palin will get no such luck. Because it's difficult to argue that Barack Obama has more experience or has achieved greater accomplishments than Palin, the Democrats are left to fall back on their old Obama standby--Judgment. As Judgment is applied in the Obama context, it means Obama can serve as president because he's extremely intelligent. After all, here's Howell Raines's dream candidate--a guy who really did get good grades in school.

So in order to bring down Palin, her malefactors on the left will have to argue a lack of "readiness," which with the thinly credentialed Obama on the other ticket can only serve as a shorthand for lack of intelligence. Chances are, ink-stained wretches are plumbing Palin's every past public utterance desperately seeking the evidence that proves she too is an amiable dunce. Of course, any misstatement on the campaign trail will serve as prima facie proof of her dim intellect. True, political observers have formed gambling pools wagering on when Joe Biden will make his first hilarious gaffe as Barack Obama's running mate. While that gaffe, inevitable as it is, may do damage to the ticket, no one on the New York Times editorial board will conclude from it that Joe Biden isn't that bright. Sarah Palin will not receive the same benefit of the doubt.

In some ways, being Sarah Palin for the next two months and change doesn't sound like a lot of fun. In spite of her many and notable self-made successes, an entire intellectual industry has already sprouted up with the sole intention of proving that she's a moron. The left wants to Quayle-ize her, and their efforts to do so won't be half-hearted.

But there is good news for Sarah Palin as the latter-day Howell Raineses and Clark Cliffords line up to smear her: She controls how the American people will come to view her much more than they do. There's a reason her excellent speech on Friday set off such a firestorm of rage and irrational hissy-fits on the left. Speaking directly to the American people, Palin cut an attractive and intelligent figure. Regardless of the left's anger, the American people will believe their own eyes rather than a frustrated blogger's or haughty anchorman's blustery "analysis."

When Clark Clifford toured the D.C. cocktail party circuit with his "amiable dunce" assessment of Ronald Reagan, most of the assembled sippers agreed. History proved them wrong. But that's not what really has the left rattled as they set off in pursuit of Sarah Palin. The American people knew Ronald Reagan was no dunce long before the Clark Cliffords of Washington admitted as much.

Dean Barnett is a staff writer at THE WEEKLY STANDARD.
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Teresa B » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:19 am

By definition the PUMA's are idiots. If they really poll favorably for Palin, either the polls are wrong or they're even bigger idiots than I thought. :|

Teresa
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Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:28 am

CBS News........September 1st............. :idea:

Alaska Governor Sarah Palin will announce today that her 17-year-old daughter is five months pregnant, Reuters reports. The announcement is “intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy to cover up for her child,” says the news service.

In a statement, the Palin family says that Bristol Palin is “about five months pregnant” and that she intends to marry the father. “We have been blessed with five wonderful children who we love with all our heart and mean everything to us," the Palins said in the statement. "Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support.”

The Palin family asked the media to “respect our daughter” and her privacy. According to the Reuters report, John McCain’s campaign was aware of the pregnancy when the Arizona senator selected Palin to be his running mate last week.

CNN...Update....12:45 e.s.t.

ST. PAUL (CNN) - Bristol Palin, the 17 year old daughter of Sarah Palin, is pregnant and will keep the baby and marry the father, a senior McCain aide confirmed to CNN Monday.

McCain was aware of Bristol Palin’s pregnancy before he chose her mother for his running mate, the aide said.

“Senator McCain knew this and felt in no way did it disqualify her from being vice president,” said the aide. “Families have difficulties sometimes and lucky for her she has a supportive family.”

Bristol Palin, a senior in high school, is about 5 months along, in her second trimester, according to the aide.

The aide said they decided to reveal this information now because of rampant Internet rumors that Sarah Palin’s four month old baby, who has Down’s Syndrome, was actually Bristol’s.

“In the course of correcting that, we needed to get the truth out,” said the McCain aide.

In a statement from Sarah and Todd Palin, they said they were “proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents.”

They also asked the media to respect their daughter’s privacy.

The McCain aide insisted a key point to keep in mind is that Bristol decided to keep the baby, a decision “supported by her parents.”

The New York Times...1 P.M. update

ST. PAUL — The 17-year-old daughter of Gov. Sarah Palin, John McCain’s running mate, is five months pregnant, Senator McCain’s campaign advisers announced today.

The daughter, Bristol, plans to marry the father, the campaign said.

In a statement, Mrs. Palin said: “Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows that she has our unconditional love and support.”

The announcement was intended to counter rumors by liberal bloggers that Mrs. Palin had claimed to have given birth to her fifth child in April when, according to the rumors, the child was her daughter’s.

Groups that oppose abortion rights had been thrilled with Mr. McCain’s selection of Mrs. Palin, the governor of Alaska, as his running mate, partly because of her opposition to abortion. It is not clear how social conservatives will respond to the latest news.

The campaign intends to cast this as the kind of situation that ordinary American families face.

The McCain campaign says it was aware of her daughter’s pregnancy before it named her as the running mate on Friday.

The family’s statement said: “Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family. We ask the media, respect our daughter and Levi’s privacy as has always been the tradition of children of candidates.”

Full statement from Sarah and Todd Palin:.1:30..e.s.t.


"We have been blessed with five wonderful children who we love with all our heart and mean everything to us. Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We’re proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support.

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family. We ask the media to respect our daughter and Levi’s privacy as has always been the tradition of children of candidates."
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:06 pm

Teresa B wrote:By definition the PUMA's are idiots. If they really poll favorably for Palin, either the polls are wrong or they're even bigger idiots than I thought. :|
So you've already judged Palin? I've been trying to find out more about her, but so far haven't seen enough--aside from all the hype and spin--to even begin to figure out who she really is. Perhaps you would be willing to share the information you've learned that helped you to determine that they'd have to be idiots to favor her in the polls...?
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Teresa B » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:26 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Teresa B wrote:By definition the PUMA's are idiots. If they really poll favorably for Palin, either the polls are wrong or they're even bigger idiots than I thought. :|
So you've already judged Palin? I've been trying to find out more about her, but so far haven't seen enough--aside from all the hype and spin--to even begin to figure out who she really is. Perhaps you would be willing to share the information you've learned that helped you to determine that they'd have to be idiots to favor her in the polls...?
Certainly: She is anti-choice, ultra-conservative, right-wing, pro-gun, creationist, and pretty much opposite in ideology from Hillary. She does seem to have strong convictions, but since those convictions are anti-everything Hillary supporters are for, they would be idiots to vote the McCain-Palin ticket, unless their logic is in thinking 4 years of McCain followed perhaps by 8 years of Hillary is a better bet than Obama.

Teresa
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Author of the novel "Creating Will"

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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:49 pm

Washington Post...September 1st.... :idea:

'I Would Oppose Abortion Even if My Own Daughter Was Raped'


In November 2006, then gubernatorial candidate Sarah Palin declared that she would not support an abortion for her own daughter even if she had been raped.

Granting exceptions only if the mother's life was in danger, Palin said that when it came to her daughter, "I would choose life."

At the time, her daughter was 14 years old. Moreover, Alaska's rape rate was an abysmal 2.2 times above the national average and 25 percent of all rapes resulted in unwanted pregnancies. But Palin's position was palatable within the state's largely Republican political circles.

Now that she's John McCain's vice presidential candidate, Palin's abortion policy (among others) is undergoing renewed scrutiny. The Alaska Republican has long declared herself pro-life. And her credentials on the topic make her the belle of the ball among religious conservatives. But Democrats and abortion rights advocates say her stance, specifically her unwillingness to grant her own child a choice to end a pregnancy induced by rape, is drastically at odds with public opinion -- even among many Republicans.

"This is absolutely outside the mainstream. Even in South Dakota they rejected [outlawing abortion in cases of rape] in '06 because it has gone too far and everyone can identify that in a case of rape or incest a woman should have the chance to make the decision with their family or doctor," said Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro Choice America. "Women voters are going to reject both her and John McCain, and I think we see it specifically because we reach out to Republicans and independent pro-choice women. They live in the suburbs and exurbs. They are very much part of the mainstream America. And woman in general will reject that ticket."

Palin makes no secret of her abortion views. A member of the group Feminists for Life, she told the Alaska Right to Life Board in 2002 that she "adamantly supported our cause since I first understood, as a child, the atrocity of abortion." In an Eagle Forum Alaska questionnaire filled out during the 2006 gubernatorial race, Palin again stated that she is against abortion unless a doctor determined that a mother's life would end due to the pregnancy.

"I believe that no matter what mistakes we make as a society," she wrote, "we cannot condone ending an innocent's life."

But it's not just abortion policy that has Democrats up in arms over Palin. In that same 2006 questionnaire, the soon-to-be governor said she would fund abstinence-only education programs in schools. "The explicit sex-ed programs," she added, "will not find my support." The stance, which reflected the priorities of the GOP, nevertheless led to an incredulous editorial in the Juneau Empire.

"Abstinence may be a laudable goal, but failing to educate teenagers about how to protect themselves from disease or unintended pregnancy is tragically misguided. According to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, abstinence-only programs do not reduce sexual activity, teen pregnancy or sexually transmitted disease. Every day 10,000 U.S. teens contract a sexually transmitted disease, 2,400 get pregnant and 55 contract HIV. Unintended pregnancies happen to Republicans, Democrats and people of all faiths."

While Palin's positions have drawn the ire and concern of the pro-choice and progressive community, they are largely -- save abortions in the case of rape -- in line with John McCain's own stances. The Senator is against federal funding of birth control and sex education. He has called for the overturning of Roe v. Wade and received a zero rating from NARAL. Once, aboard the Straight Talk Express, McCain was asked if he supported the use of contraception or President Bush's abstinence-only education program to stem the spreading of AIDS.

"After a long pause, he said, 'I think I support the president's policy.' Does he believe that contraceptives help stop the spread of HIV? After another long pause, he replied, "You've stumped me."
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:21 pm

Palin says daughter, 17, is pregnant; Announcement aims to rebut rumors about governor's son

Associated Press

2: 00 PM EDT, September 1, 2008

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) _ John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin said Monday that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant, an announcement campaign aides said was aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's.

A statement released by the campaign said that Bristol Palin will keep her baby and marry the child's father. Bristol Palin's baby is due in late December.

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in the brief statement.

The disclosure of the pregnancy came on the opening day of the Republican National Convention, scaled back because of Hurricane Gustav, and three days after McCain named Palin as his running mate. Other news was likely to overshadow the disclosure.

"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family," they added. The father was identified in the statement as Levi, but the campaign said it was not disclosing his last name or age.

Sarah Palin's fifth child, a son named Trig, was born in April with Down syndrome. Internet bloggers have been suggesting that the child was actually born to Bristol Palin but that her mother, the 44-year-old Alaska governor, claimed to be the mother.

Palin spokesman Bill McAllister emphatically denied those rumors, and McCain adviser Mark Salter said the campaign announced the daughter's pregnancy to rebut them.

"Senator McCain's view is this is a private family matter. As parents, (the Palins) love their daughter unconditionally and are going to support their daughter," said McCain spokesman Steve Schmidt.

"Life happens," he said.

"An American family," added Salter.

The advisers said Palin told them about the pregnancy during lengthy discussions about her background. At several points during the discussions, McCain's team warned Palin that the scrutiny into her private life would be intense and that there was nothing she could do to prepare for it.

Prominent religious conservatives, many of whom have been lukewarm toward McCain's candidacy, predicted that Palin's daughter's pregnancy would not diminish conservative Christian enthusiasm over the vice presidential hopeful.

"I think it's a very private matter," said Roberta Combs, president of the Christian Coalition of America. "It's a matter that should stay in the family and they have to work through it together. My prayers go out to them."

Added Combs: "We're excited about the governor and think she's going to do well."

Mathew Staver, dean of Liberty University School of Law, said: "We're all sinners."

"We all make mistakes. Certainly, the ideal is not to get pregnant out of wedlock. But she made the right decision after her mistake," he said.

Staver also criticized anyone who would seek to make it a negative campaign issue: "It's absolutely shameful to put her child in the spotlight. She's not running for office. When someone can't face issues, they try to tear down a family."
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:31 pm

Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant
Gee! Whatever happened to "the candidate's children are off-limits unless they campaign for the candidate"? The propaganda arm of the party that whines about how Michelle Obama is treated because she's just the wife of the candidate, even though she is an adjunct of Obama's campaign, now attacks Palin's 17 yr old daughter. Good move guys! Too clever by half.

Stenka, can you say d-e-s-p-e-r-a-t-i-o-n?
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Barry » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:39 pm

Daily Kos tries to cancel P.D.S. alert
By Michelle Malkin • September 1, 2008 09:55 AM

We noted the nutroots’ deepening Palin Derangement Syndrome over the weekend, topped by a diarist at the Daily Kos who’s been spreading disgusting, bottom-of-the-barrel rumors — picked up by the excitable and shameless Andrew Sullivan — about Gov. Sarah Palin’s youngest child and attacking one of Palin’s daughters as the mother of Trig.

The Free Republic fights back with photos of a very pregnant Gov. Palin in late February. I linked to an April blog post from an airline passenger who met the pregnant governor on a flight from Fairbanks. It is unbelievably surreal that this dirtbag Kossack rumor has to be debunked.
Even another Kos diarist is now trying to undo the damage. Accompanied by the photo the Freepers found, the diarist headlined a post this morning: “Sarah Palin Baby Story Ender.” The diarist insists: “Unless someone has counter evidence, we can drop this crap now.”
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Madame » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:49 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant
Gee! Whatever happened to "the candidate's children are off-limits unless they campaign for the candidate"? The propaganda arm of the party that whines about how Michelle Obama is treated because she's just the wife of the candidate, even though she is an adjunct of Obama's campaign, now attacks Palin's 17 yr old daughter. Good move guys! Too clever by half.

Stenka, can you say d-e-s-p-e-r-a-t-i-o-n?
Cruel ...

In less than 72 hours since she was named, I"ve seen and heard so much anger, venom ... ugly. So many rumors, passed around like the truth. Throwing everything at her, hoping something will stick?

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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by greymouse » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:56 pm

Palin is very pro-drilling. Her approach in Alaska seems to have been this: you oil companies want to drill here, then I will compromise by demanding that Alaskans get a cut and emissions standards will be raised.

I think it's a great approach that should be emulated by the shamefully stagnant American congress. We should allow much more drilling in the US which will help our jobs market, our energy crisis, and our foreign policy. In exchange, the oil companies can have a tax increase or increased environmental regulations on this drilling.

It sounds like she doesn't care about party labels; she is relying on common sense and the experience she has gained from commercial fishing and her husband's oil experience. She wants to act fast, act big, and act now. Obama and Biden just talk a lot really. It's not in their nature to enact this type of positive change.

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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:58 pm

Thinking about the Palins' response to this public disclosure reminds me of a phrase I've often heard from friends who are Christians: "Hate the sin but love the sinner." In this case (based solely on biases related to recent media reports describing Palin as a conservative Christian) I presume that the Palins would regard sex out of wedlock (and the consequent illegitimate birth?) as a sin, something that we should not do because of the potential harmful consequences to ourselves and others...but that has no bearing on their love for their daughter nor on the love they choose to offer her child. I've seen similar scenarios played out several times over the years so believe that the Palins' response is typical rather than exceptional.

It seems very odd to me that anyone would think that her daughter's pregnancy somehow discredits Palin, and even odder that anyone would be so mean-spirited as to try somehow to twist this against her in the upcoming election.

I know that the liberal demagogues almost by definition are not very bright, but are they really too stupid to realize what sort of backlash their attacks are likely to provoke?
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:03 pm

Madame wrote:In less than 72 hours since she was named, I"ve seen and heard so much anger, venom ... ugly. So many rumors, passed around like the truth. Throwing everything at her, hoping something will stick?
The Dim's rapid response team is manned, or staffed rather, by juveniles. It's a fact that in 2000, 2004, and now those teams are manned by college volunteers probably under the leadership, if that's the word for it, of a 30-something recent law school graduate. IOW, there's no adult supervision to restrain them. Two days from now, when the holiday is over, the backlash will set in. Prediction: an overall loss of Team Obama on this one. But they won't stop trying something, anything.

If they think they are going to win back the PUMAs by using this family situation to attack Palin's stand on abortion, I have this to say to them: only 5% of registered voters are looking at social issues, including abortion and gay rights, to determine their vote. If they want to behave like this for the small segment of the 5% who use abortion to determine their vote, I say "knock yourselves out." :D
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:05 pm

The issue is that McCain's advisors really didn't research Sarah Palin, carefully enough. Do you really think McCain was aware of this pregnancy before he announced Palin as a running mate?
I know many of you are commenting that these things happen, but, shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
A person can not preach the necessity of high moral standards, without living by them and teaching these values to their family.
Is this family a role model for the rest of America?
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:16 pm

stenka razin wrote:shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
Sorry, but that silly line of argument doesn't get you points when your guy is a 40 something with no history of leadership or expertise on anything. Talk about unvetted!
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
You can't be that naive. He's the one making an issue of it. I want to know why America should care. This is just more of the "let's make a smokescreen so we don't have to talk about issues" trend in electoral politics.
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:20 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
stenka razin wrote:shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
Sorry, but that silly line of argument doesn't get you points when your guy is a 40 something with no history of leadership or expertise on anything. Talk about unvetted!
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
You can't be that naive. He's the one making an issue of it. I want to know why America should care. This is just more of the "let's make a smokescreen so we don't have to talk about issues" trend in electoral politics.
From Obama...3:00.P.M. e.s.t.

MONROE, Michigan (CNN) – Barack Obama told reporters firmly that families are off-limits in this campaign, reacting to news that Sarah Palin’s 17-year-old daughter is five months pregnant.

“Let me be as clear as possible,” said Obama, “I think people’s families are off-limits and people's children are especially off-limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.”

Obama said reporters should “back off these kinds of stories” and noted that he was born to an 18 year-old mother.

“How a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that’s off-limits.”

The Illinois senator became aggravated when asked about rumors on liberal blogs speculating that Palin’s fifth child - Trig - is actually her daughter Bristol’s. A Reuters report Monday quotes a senior McCain aide saying that Obama’s name is in some of posts, “in a way that certainly juxtaposes themselves against their 'campaign of change,’”

“I am offended by that statement,” Obama shot back, not letting the reporter finish his question. “There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us.”

“We don’t go after people’s families,” Obama said. “We don’t get them involved in the politics. It’s not appropriate and it’s not relevant. Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be. And if I ever thought that there was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they’d be fired.”
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Steinway » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:27 pm

I think that the subject of Patin's daughter's pregnancy is irrelevent and I will be very angry if the Democrats make this into something other than a simple fact.

The merits of this candidate should be examined carefully but her children should be invisible on matters like this.

Let's get on with the campaign and try as hard as possible to avoid any dirt, on either side.

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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Seán » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:09 pm

stenka razin wrote:The issue is that McCain's advisors really didn't research Sarah Palin, carefully enough. Do you really think McCain was aware of this pregnancy before he announced Palin as a running mate?
I know many of you are commenting that these things happen, but, shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
A person can not preach the necessity of high moral standards, without living by them and teaching these values to their family.
Is this family a role model for the rest of America?
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
Stenka, I don't normally comment on American politics but on reading your posts and recent comments I want to ask you something. Do you or have you ever had a teenage daughter? If the anwser is yes then you should know that it is impossible to control a girl and to ensure that she will not get pregnant. The mother may teach the daughter, however, she may choose not to follow as she is endowed with free will. The mother is not responsible for that young girl getting pregnant. The girl should be left alone. Disparging remarks about her in this context is more revealing about those who sit in judgement rather than on that young girl or her mother.
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:10 pm

stenka razin wrote:The issue is that McCain's advisors really didn't research Sarah Palin, carefully enough. Do you really think McCain was aware of this pregnancy before he announced Palin as a running mate?
It appears that Rove wanted Romney, McCain wanted Lieberman and we got Palin as a compromise...they probably vetted her as well as they did Bernie Kerrick...
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:19 pm

Seán wrote:
stenka razin wrote:The issue is that McCain's advisors really didn't research Sarah Palin, carefully enough. Do you really think McCain was aware of this pregnancy before he announced Palin as a running mate?
I know many of you are commenting that these things happen, but, shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
A person can not preach the necessity of high moral standards, without living by them and teaching these values to their family.
Is this family a role model for the rest of America?
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
Stenka, I don't normally comment on American politics but on reading your posts and recent comments I want to ask you something. Do you or have you ever had a teenage daughter? If the anwser is yes then you should know that it is impossible to control a girl and to ensure that she will not get pregnant. The mother may teach the daughter, however, she may choose not to follow as she is endowed with free will. The mother is not responsible for that young girl getting pregnant. The girl should be left alone. Disparging remarks about her in this context is more revealing about those who sit in judgement rather than on that young girl or her mother.
Sean, yes I do have grown daughters and you are right. There is no guarantee that when your daugther walks out the door, she will make the right decision. That being said, let's move on.
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:20 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
stenka razin wrote:The issue is that McCain's advisors really didn't research Sarah Palin, carefully enough. Do you really think McCain was aware of this pregnancy before he announced Palin as a running mate?
It appears that Rove wanted Romney, McCain wanted Lieberman and we got Palin as a compromise...they probably vetted her as well as they did Bernie Kerrick...
chalkie, I think you got it right. 8)
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:25 pm

stenka razin wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
stenka razin wrote:shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
Sorry, but that silly line of argument doesn't get you points when your guy is a 40 something with no history of leadership or expertise on anything. Talk about unvetted!
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
You can't be that naive. He's the one making an issue of it. I want to know why America should care. This is just more of the "let's make a smokescreen so we don't have to talk about issues" trend in electoral politics.
From Obama...3:00.P.M. e.s.t.

MONROE, Michigan (CNN) – Barack Obama told reporters firmly that families are off-limits in this campaign, reacting to news that Sarah Palin’s 17-year-old daughter is five months pregnant.

“Let me be as clear as possible,” said Obama, “I think people’s families are off-limits and people's children are especially off-limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.”

Obama said reporters should “back off these kinds of stories” and noted that he was born to an 18 year-old mother.

“How a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that’s off-limits.”
That's what he's supposed to say, Stenka. That's why his operatives' fingerprints are all ove this, and not his own.
“I am offended by that statement,” Obama shot back, not letting the reporter finish his question. “There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us.”

*** Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be. And if I ever thought that there was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they’d be fired.”
At least he didn't say, "I'm shocked! Shocked!" You can't be that naive either. What's done in the name of the candidate by his operatives belongs to the candidate, regardless of whether they did it with or without his knowledge. If it appeared on Huffingtonpost or DailyKos, it came from Team Obama.
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Chosen Barley » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:15 pm

DavidRoss wrote:...It seems very odd to me that anyone would think that her daughter's pregnancy somehow discredits Palin, and even odder that anyone would be so mean-spirited as to try somehow to twist this against her in the upcoming election.
David, it might seem odd to YOU that a child's behaviour would somehow discredit the parents, but believe me, parents, particularly mothers, are almost always held personally responsible when children do something ranging from silly, unwise, stupid or harmful to outright illegal. If you are not a parent, consider yourself blessed, if only because this is one situation of judgment you will not have to face.
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by sfbugala » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:47 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
stenka razin wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
stenka razin wrote:shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
Sorry, but that silly line of argument doesn't get you points when your guy is a 40 something with no history of leadership or expertise on anything. Talk about unvetted!
Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
You can't be that naive. He's the one making an issue of it. I want to know why America should care. This is just more of the "let's make a smokescreen so we don't have to talk about issues" trend in electoral politics.
From Obama...3:00.P.M. e.s.t.

MONROE, Michigan (CNN) – Barack Obama told reporters firmly that families are off-limits in this campaign, reacting to news that Sarah Palin’s 17-year-old daughter is five months pregnant.

“Let me be as clear as possible,” said Obama, “I think people’s families are off-limits and people's children are especially off-limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin’s performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.”

Obama said reporters should “back off these kinds of stories” and noted that he was born to an 18 year-old mother.

“How a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that’s off-limits.”
That's what he's supposed to say, Stenka. That's why his operatives' fingerprints are all ove this, and not his own.
“I am offended by that statement,” Obama shot back, not letting the reporter finish his question. “There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us.”

*** Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be. And if I ever thought that there was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they’d be fired.”
At least he didn't say, "I'm shocked! Shocked!" You can't be that naive either. What's done in the name of the candidate by his operatives belongs to the candidate, regardless of whether they did it with or without his knowledge. If it appeared on Huffingtonpost or DailyKos, it came from Team Obama.
I can't help but wonder if Obama's children were older what the response would be from the other side if an unplanned pregnancy occurred...

I'd bet the GOP would have nothing but very sweet things to say about it.

Perhaps it's naive on my part, but I'd like to think McCain is honorable when he says that Obama's middle name has no part in the campaign. And I'd like to think Obama is sincere regarding leaving Palin's children out of this.

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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Steinway » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:48 pm

If it appears on FoxNews or the New York Post, it comes from McCain and his advisors.

C'mon, Corlyss, that shot was unecessary. :lol:

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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:31 pm

I am not surprised to learn that Palin opposed Sex Education being taught in the Alaska school system. She endorsed abstinance as the alternative. :idea:
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:54 pm

stenka razin wrote:I am not surprised to learn that Palin opposed Sex Education being taught in the Alaska school system. She endorsed abstinance as the alternative. :idea:
I guess she did not teach it to her own children either...
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:01 pm

If Obama is not responsible for the utterings of his
campaigners, who is? Should we presume then
that should he becomes President, he will not be responsible
for the actions of his followers if they decide to follow in
his friend, Ayre's footsteps and do some bombings of their own?
Did not an American President once say,
"The Buck Stops Here"?

In any case, attacking Palin, the first woman to be nominated to the
Vice Presidency, may just prove to be counter productive.
Attacking her daughter is even more ridiculous. If Obama wants to
attract Hillary's millions, he is sure going about it the wrong way.

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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:09 pm

Teresa B wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:
Teresa B wrote:By definition the PUMA's are idiots. If they really poll favorably for Palin, either the polls are wrong or they're even bigger idiots than I thought. :|
So you've already judged Palin? I've been trying to find out more about her, but so far haven't seen enough--aside from all the hype and spin--to even begin to figure out who she really is. Perhaps you would be willing to share the information you've learned that helped you to determine that they'd have to be idiots to favor her in the polls...?
Certainly: She is anti-choice, ultra-conservative, right-wing, pro-gun, creationist, and pretty much opposite in ideology from Hillary. She does seem to have strong convictions, but since those convictions are anti-everything Hillary supporters are for, they would be idiots to vote the McCain-Palin ticket, unless their logic is in thinking 4 years of McCain followed perhaps by 8 years of Hillary is a better bet than Obama.
She is? I've seen that she's described herself as pro-life, but haven't seen that she's anti-choice (which I interpret as favoring using the coercive power of government to turn back the clock to the days of back-alley abortion clinics--not something that can happen without overturning a landmark Supreme Court decision, which seems extremely unlikely). That would be a check against her in my book, but I'm hardly a single-issue voter.

Ultra-conservative seems quite a stretch, though I'm not at all sure what the cognitive content of this label would be. To me it sounds like an empty pejorative that "ultra-liberals" would use to demonize people who disagree with them on certain issues. Let's define those issues, and then which positions are "ultra-conservative" and which are not, and then we can determine whether this speaks well or ill of her.

Right-wing. Like "ultra-conservative," the term means different things to different people. It's not necessarily a pejorative in my book, as there are many issue positions associated with the political right in America that I support. For instance, I favor a limited role for the Federal government consistent with their Constitutional authority, and I favor upholding ALL of the rights enumerated in the Constitution. Governor Palin seems to agree. That is a checkmark in her favor in my book, regardless of whether you characterize the position as "right-wing" or not.

Palin's support for the Constitutional guarantee to recognize the people's right to keep and bear arms is a very strong mark in her favor. I did not feel this way 20 years ago, but the Clinton administration's assault on this fundamental right caused me to investigate the issue--at first so I could better defend the Clintons' policies. The more I learned about the facts, the more I realized my beliefs and their policies were completely wrong and founded on nothing but ignorant prejudice. I do not think anyone can honestly and fair-mindedly investigate these issues without coming to similar conclusions, not only about the legitimate meaning and intent of the Second Amendment, but also about the practical social benefits of responsible gun ownership versus the terrible failures of gun control.

Again, I'm not sure what the label "Creationist" means. I usually see it applied as a pejorative to discredit religious people as some kind of ignorant backwoods fundamentalist totalitarians who reject science as the work of the Devil. From what I've read, this hardly applies to Palin, the daughter of a science teacher, and an advocate of exposing children in schools to both scientific and religious points of view. I don't know, since I haven't seen any statements by her about the nature of her belief, but if she's like most religious folks I know, then she probably sees no conflict at all between religious faith and science.

As for being opposite in ideology to Hillary, that's a very strong plus in my book. I think Hillary represents almost everything that is most egregiously wrong with politics in this country. Palin's record in public office so far suggests that she's a woman who actually has principles rather than just paying lip service to them. She's fought fraud, high taxes, and waste. She's taken on corrupt insiders in her own party and driven them from office. And she's demonstrated a big streak of common sense seeking practical solutions rather than partisan stalemates.

Now I know the many political bigots on this site will find this hard to believe (due to their own blinding prejudices in reading all sorts of things into my posts), but my mind is not made up in this election (not that my vote will matter, since I'm from California! :? ). I admire Obama personally and think the jury's still out on his leadership potential. I've long regarded Biden as a pandering demagogue, but doubt he'd play much of a role in an Obama administration. I sure don't agree with McCain on all the issues, but I've always respected the guy and he really is the more centrist of the two candidates, and he's far more experienced in the ways of the world and of Washington, FWIW, and yet he's still an outsider, both in his party and in Washington, and he has at least some grasp of Realpolitik and the economic facts of life.

The wild card is Governor Palin. Who she really is, in terms of character, and whether she can demonstrate the competence expected from a candidate for national office, will determine a lot in my mind, and I suspect in the minds of many millions of voters--especially in the swing states where Obama's elitism proved such a liability. And I also suspect that the Democratic demagogues' rush to trivialize and demonize her is likely to blow up in their faces if she turns out to be more like Truman than Quayle.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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DavidRoss
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:23 pm

Chosen Barley wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:...It seems very odd to me that anyone would think that her daughter's pregnancy somehow discredits Palin, and even odder that anyone would be so mean-spirited as to try somehow to twist this against her in the upcoming election.
David, it might seem odd to YOU that a child's behaviour would somehow discredit the parents, but believe me, parents, particularly mothers, are almost always held personally responsible when children do something ranging from silly, unwise, stupid or harmful to outright illegal. If you are not a parent, consider yourself blessed, if only because this is one situation of judgment you will not have to face.
I don't know where you live, Barley, but in my world (21st Century California), out of wedlock pregnancy has been commonplace for so long that no one even bats an eye about it any longer. And just see Sean and Stenka's posts to understand that only the most obtuse bigots would somehow demonize a girl for it or hold her mother responsible.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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slofstra
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by slofstra » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:32 pm

Who is attacking this unwed mother? I didn't read every word of every article, but I didn't see any attacks on her.

Perhaps it's all a ruse to deflect attention from the bearskin rug picture.

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Anyway, she's a fake. What kind of apple-pie lovin', God fearin', Republikin would name their children:
Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow and Piper.
Let's see - that's one for each of Phys-ed, math, English history, biology, and aviation.

Wait a second. Is that a BlackBerry on the couch beside her? She's helping Canada.
Last edited by slofstra on Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

stenka razin
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by stenka razin » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:33 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Chosen Barley wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:...It seems very odd to me that anyone would think that her daughter's pregnancy somehow discredits Palin, and even odder that anyone would be so mean-spirited as to try somehow to twist this against her in the upcoming election.
David, it might seem odd to YOU that a child's behaviour would somehow discredit the parents, but believe me, parents, particularly mothers, are almost always held personally responsible when children do something ranging from silly, unwise, stupid or harmful to outright illegal. If you are not a parent, consider yourself blessed, if only because this is one situation of judgment you will not have to face.
I don't know where you live, Barley, but in my world (21st Century California), out of wedlock pregnancy has been commonplace for so long that no one even bats an eye about it any longer. And just see Sean and Stenka's posts to understand that only the most obtuse bigots would somehow demonize a girl for it or hold her mother responsible.
DavidRoss, I am not criticizing Bristol or even Sarah Palin, her mom, but, what I am criticizing, is McCain's sloppy selection of a Vice President. Mccain does not need a running mate with baggage. We all know there were many other qualified candidates for this honorable position and by the way, I am not a bigot.
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Chosen Barley
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Chosen Barley » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:38 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:...In any case, attacking Palin, the first woman to be nominated to the
Vice Presidency, may just prove to be counter productive.
Attacking her daughter is even more ridiculous. If Obama wants to
attract Hillary's millions, he is sure going about it the wrong way.
I thought it was Geraldine Ferraro who was running along with, er, was it Mondale? Maybe you meant the first Republican. I remember Geraldine. She was a tough cookie, a real feminist & kind of rude. Of course that is if my memory serves me correctly. :D
STRESSED? Spell it backwards for the cure.

Teresa B
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Teresa B » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:50 pm

I get emails daily from Democratic campaign websites (whether I want them or not). I have seen ZERO attacks on Palin's daughter. That's as it should be of course--I agree completely with Obama's remarks that this should be off-limits, and has nothing to do with Palin's qualifications. Surely if I can see that it would be stupid to sanction this sort of attack, then so can Obama. He's too smart to risk a backlash. I don't know if the Democratic campaign bloggers are all that smart, thus they might well spew all sorts of garbage (just as Republican bloggers can :) ) without Obama's seal of approval.

As much as Republicans can scream about Dems attacking Palin's daughter, all I have actually seen are--er, Republican screams about Dems attacking Palin's daughter.

Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

DavidRoss
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:03 pm

stenka razin wrote: DavidRoss, I am not criticizing Bristol or even Sarah Palin, her mom, but, what I am criticizing, is McCain's sloppy selection of a Vice President. Mccain does not need a running mate with baggage. We all know there were many other qualified candidates for this honorable position and by the way, I am not a bigot.
You completely misread my post, Stenka. I am sorry if my meaning was unclear, for I was not criticizing you unfavorably but favorably! I was referring to your statement here as evidence that rational people generally know all too well that not everything teenagers do is necessarily a reflection of their parenting:
stenka razin wrote:Sean, yes I do have grown daughters and you are right. There is no guarantee that when your daugther walks out the door, she will make the right decision. That being said, let's move on.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Teresa B
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Teresa B » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:04 pm

DavidRoss wrote:As for being opposite in ideology to Hillary, that's a very strong plus in my book.
And that's fine for you. If your views mesh with Palin's you would be consistent to support her. My point was, the so-called PUMA's, being self-proclaimed Hillaryites to the core, would be idiots to back Sarah Palin, whose views are diametrically opposed to everything they supposedly believe in.

I can only conclude that any PUMA's that do back McCain-Palin either:
(A)--think 4 more years of Republicans are worth it if Hillary could get in by 2012, or
(B)--are so angered by Hillary's defeat, they are choosing to shoot themselves in the foot over misplaced pride/loyalty instead of thinking.

Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

Steinway
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Steinway » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:22 pm

Teresa..

Of course you're right but I'm sure you recognize the frantic attempt by the right-wingers on this website to paint this woman as the second coming.

The bottom line on this choice by McCain will be seen and interpreted by most people as a classic example of his judgment for picking the best and most qualified people for his administration.

Whatever assets this woman has thus far accomplished, her credentials for being the President of the United States are , by any standard, less than formidable.
:roll: :roll:

This stuff will get worse before it's over, so prepare yourself.

DavidRoss
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:23 pm

Teresa B wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:As for being opposite in ideology to Hillary, that's a very strong plus in my book.
And that's fine for you. If your views mesh with Palin's you would be consistent to support her. My point was, the so-called PUMA's, being self-proclaimed Hillaryites to the core, would be idiots to back Sarah Palin, whose views are diametrically opposed to everything they supposedly believe in.

I can only conclude that any PUMA's that do back McCain-Palin either:
(A)--think 4 more years of Republicans are worth it if Hillary could get in by 2012, or
(B)--are so angered by Hillary's defeat, they are choosing to shoot themselves in the foot over misplaced pride/loyalty instead of thinking.
or (C)--are simply sexists who were attracted to Hillary's gender and her attempts to make gender a deciding issue in their minds, in which case a switch to Palin would suggest an unintended but not idiotic result
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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DavidRoss
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:26 pm

Cliftwood wrote:Teresa..

Of course you're right but I'm sure you recognize the frantic attempt by the right-wingers on this website to paint this woman as the second coming.

The bottom line on this choice by McCain will be seen and interpreted by most people as a classic example of his judgment for picking the best and most qualified people for his administration.

Whatever assets this woman has thus far accomplished, her credentials for being the President of the United States are , by any standard, less than formidable.
:roll: :roll:

This stuff will get worse before it's over, so prepare yourself.
The only frantic activity I've seen is from the Democratic partisans rushing to judgment and demonizing her in accordance with their biases...like you, right here, for instance.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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greymouse
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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by greymouse » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:10 pm

stenka razin wrote:I know many of you are commenting that these things happen, but, shouldn't the President and the Vice-President be held to a higher standard?
A person can not preach the necessity of high moral standards, without living by them and teaching these values to their family.
Since when is Palin running for a role as preacher? She's running for a completely unrelated job. At least her daughter isn't plotting to bomb federal buildings.
stenka razin wrote:Is this family a role model for the rest of America?
Why does her family have to be a role model for anything? She's running for Vice President.
stenka razin wrote:Obama cannot be held responsible for this embarrassing situation. Stop blaming him.
No he can't because he rightly noted today that attacking politicians' families is completely unacceptable and disgusting.

Kevin R
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Re: Palin takes on oil industry, Republicans

Post by Kevin R » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:55 pm

Cliftwood wrote:Of course you're right but I'm sure you recognize the frantic attempt by the right-wingers on this website to paint this woman as the second coming.
She can't possibly be the second coming, because BO is. Praise the Lord, BO is here to save us all.

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Re: Sarah Palin's 17 Year Old Unmarried Daughter Pregnant

Post by Ralph » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:03 pm

Another piece of non-news. It's a personal matter for the family having nothing to do with Gov. Palin's lack of qualifications for the nation's second-highest office.
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