Sarah Palin: Pros and Cons [Thread Retitled]

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Teresa B
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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Teresa B » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:31 am

Brendan wrote:
Teresa B wrote:... and she is of the far right religious crowd who basically would love to keep women in a subjugated position (although paradoxically she is obviously very ambitious for herself).

Teresa
Saying she is of the far right who wants to keep women in a subjugated position is countered by her actual life and what she has done - is she really a submissive female advocating such? I certainly didn't see that from the article cited.

Femisists also hated Thatcher for years, if not decades, because she wasn't a conformist Lefty. Some thoughtful feminists/women really don't like the feminist dogma of today.

http://www.aei.org/publications/filter. ... detail.asp
Brendan, if you reread my comment above, you will note that I expressly did not say Palin was a "submissive female", I said she was ambitious, which is paradoxical since she is a representative of a crowd who prefers to keep women submissive.

I don't like feminist "dogma" either. There's plenty of stuff that feminists spew that is ridiculous in my opinion. I was saying there is not much ideology represented by Palin that agrees with anything "feminist", whether it be the far left dogmatic ones or more thoughtful ones.

Teresa
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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:44 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:I actively campaigned for Barry Goldwater and my first presidential vote was for him. I also got the daylights beaten out of me by my father for disobeying him at age 9 by actively handing out "Ike for President" leaflets in Far Rockaway (the First Amendment wasn't part of his world outlook).
Stop it! You're making me doubt my perception of reality.
I have voted for Republicans running for local office but not that often.
That's more like it. :lol:
Ralph wrote:guys my age I meet most mornings at the nearest McDonald's
Wait a minute! The Denizen of Dim Sum dines at McDonalds?
*****

My cardiologist and endocrinologist don't much care for the McDonald's forays. But the truth is that I need something to get me going, especially on days I teach which tend to be 12-14 hours long, and I keep no food in the house. And I enjoy the mindless banter at Mickey D's as a quick start to a busy day. :)
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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:46 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
Ralph wrote: Note that when Palin stated (more than once) that she was opposed to abortion even when the woman was impregnated by a rapist, she rejected a right that existed in most states BEFORE Roe. So the issue is - how out of touch is she with the majority of Americans on this very chronically sensitive issue? The answer is that she is far from the center and, in most presidential elections, candidates close to the center (of either party) have prevailed.
The same academic who contends that centrists have the best chance to win the general election has also shown that abortion is simply one of the overblown issues that most Americans won't be basing their votes on.
By close to the center, you do mean between Dems and Republicans, not center of either party, I should think. See Morris P. Fiorina's "The Myth of a Polarized America."
*****

Well, I have zero credentials as a sociologist but I do think that with regard to the abortion issue, more people feel comfortable with a centrist approach , e.g., abortion isn't great but Roe works, than either polarity. And at presidential election time, I do sense "a polarized America."
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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Madame » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:47 am

Ralph wrote: None of them are particularly impressed by my job and few even know my area of expertise (I'm constantly asked about wills and closings, about which I know next to nothing).
I had to smile -- when I got my CPA certificate, I was bombarded with tax questions -- are you KIDDING? I hate tax accounting.

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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:59 am

Here's the answer to Palin:

Woman in 'shock' over giant zucchini

BY CHRISTINA BOYLE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Thursday, September 4th 2008, 1:18 AM
Apollonia Castitlione holds tight to giant zucchini at Queens home. Goldfield for News

Apollonia Castitlione holds tight to giant zucchini at Queens home.

Image

It would make one hell of a salad.

A Queens woman has taken homegrown fruits and vegetables to a whole new level by cultivating a 6-foot-long zucchini in her backyard.

Green-fingered Apollonia Castitlione grew the giant Long Italian zucchini during the warm summer months using nothing more than fertilizer, water and a little TLC.

"I've had my vegetable garden for 26 years, but I never saw anything so spectacular," said Castitlione, who's 5 feet tall. "I didn't put Miracle Grow on it, nothing, just a little bit of 5-10-5 fertilizer, water and my time."

Castitlione, 48, said she noticed the giant fruit was growing longer than usual last month when it suddenly shot up a couple of inches in as many days.

She then went on vacation to Boston for the weekend and returned to find it had shot up another 1.5 inches.

At last count, the zucchini was just over 6 feet - nearly 2 feet shy of the world-record 7-foot, 10-inch zucchini grown in India three years ago.

"There's no secret, I guess it was just luck," said Castitlione, who lives in Glendale, Queens.

"I went to look at it one day and was like, 'It's a little long,' then a few days later, I said, 'Oh, my God, what's this?'

"I was so in shock, I grow them every year, but never more than about 4feet.

"I decided I wasn't going to touch it and just let it grow."

She said several friends gave her zucchini seeds, but she doesn't know who gave her the special one.

The home-care worker also grows tomatoes and string beans but says this fruit will not be making its way to her dinner plate anytime soon.

"I'm going to save it and use the seeds for next year," she said.

"It's getting hard, so wouldn't be good to eat anymore and it's starting to grow very slowly.

"It's still hanging off the vine and I'm watering it.

"It's so straight, it's so perfect. Usually, some are really crooked."
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SaulChanukah

Re: Palin's Problem Pastor

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:25 am

I don't like her.
Even her looks, suggest an untrustworthy and an unpredictable person.
So I have decided not to vote for McCain as long as she is on the ticket.

About Obama,

I feel that he will cause this country to step back a few years. He will bring 'change' to the worst. He is not telling the American people what are his true views. He is an opportunist, big talker, that speaks what people want to hear, but doesn’t really mean it.

Therefore, I wont be voting for either one.

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Re: Palin vetoed housing funds for pregnant teens

Post by DavidRoss » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:11 am

The Post story is reprehensibly misleading, and RebLem's spin on it in his thread title, "Palin vetoed housing funds for pregnant teens," is an outright lie.

The facts are:
(1) In 2007, Covenant House received $1.3MM in government grants.
(2) In 2006, Covenant House received $1.2MM in government grants.
(3) In 2008, Covenant House requested $10MM in funding from the state to help with a $22MM a building expansion.
(4) The Alaska Legislature approved $5MM in funding for the 2009 budget for the building expansion.
(5) Governor Palin approved the request, she did not veto it.
(6) Governor Palin reduced the amount of the proposed budget increase for Covenant House from $5MM to $3.9MM.
(7) Palin did not slash funding, but increased state funding for 2009 threefold--from $1.3MM to $3.9MM.

It took me about 30 seconds to Google the facts. The Washington Post story and the original post quoting it in this thread do not tell us anything about Governor Palin, but they speak volumes about the character of those trying to assassinate her character.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

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Chosen Barley
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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Chosen Barley » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:47 am

Ralph wrote:Of course I don't include people whose religious scruples reject abortion but many of those people do not believe they have the right to try to control the decisions of pregnant women.
I'm not posting to give an opinion pro or con, but to ask you, Ralph, to explain why you "don't include people whose religious scruples reject abortion" etc

You refer to religion-based scruples (or opinions & feelings, as I call them) as some sort of external force that makes them unable to have any other opinion. Though we in NA are losing our freedoms quickly, nevertheless at present we are not forced (unless children) to believe (and therefore practice) any ideology, and religion is just another one of those. What if someone's objections are "merely" philosophical? Why do you imply that if someone has inherited, or freely adopted, a particular religion, he (or she) is now off the hook when it comes to examining the way he thinks?
STRESSED? Spell it backwards for the cure.

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Steinway » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:18 am

After listening to Palin's speech, it gives me a real secure feeling knowing that a person with her stature, intellect, experience and values is a heartbeat away from being the President of the United States.

Thank you, John McCain , for selecting the best person in this country to lead us to greater heights than your current leader has.

A brilliant and inspiring choice!

:wink: :wink: :oops: :wink:

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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by JackC » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:21 am

I think this is very dangerous territory for the Democrats. They will want to try to destroy her, but it seems obvious that people genuinely LIKE her. At a gut level, I don't think people really identify with or like McCain or Biden, or even Obama. In fact, compared to Palin, Obama comes off as a pompous windbag. So if the Dems really try to tear her apart, they may just alienate voters who genuinely like her.

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Re: Inexperience

Post by Steinway » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:26 am

Madame..

Another absolutely brilliant post. :wink:

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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:33 am

Chosen Barley wrote:
Ralph wrote:Of course I don't include people whose religious scruples reject abortion but many of those people do not believe they have the right to try to control the decisions of pregnant women.
I'm not posting to give an opinion pro or con, but to ask you, Ralph, to explain why you "don't include people whose religious scruples reject abortion" etc

You refer to religion-based scruples (or opinions & feelings, as I call them) as some sort of external force that makes them unable to have any other opinion. Though we in NA are losing our freedoms quickly, nevertheless at present we are not forced (unless children) to believe (and therefore practice) any ideology, and religion is just another one of those. What if someone's objections are "merely" philosophical? Why do you imply that if someone has inherited, or freely adopted, a particular religion, he (or she) is now off the hook when it comes to examining the way he thinks?
*****

You have misunderstood my comment which in the context of many discussions here is different than your reading. I fully
respect the religious beliefs that reflect a broad range of values and, in fact, have defended, as a lawyer, the First Amendment rights of people whose dogma and practices are very alien to my values.

I don't know what you mean by "off the hook." My practice (personal and professional) is never to engage in any debate or discussion about the source, nature or meaning of a religious belief or practice. My arguments and positions are rooted in law, policy and values that are inherently secularist.

I don't know if I responded adequately but I tried.
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Re: Inexperience

Post by GK » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:36 am

It is obvious, based on the principal theme of last night's speeches, that the Republicans will soon reverse their ticket running Palin for president and McCain for VP. By their definition she is by far the more qualified of the two.

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Re: Palin's Problem Pastor

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:36 am

SaulChanukah wrote:I don't like her.
Even her looks, suggest an untrustworthy and an unpredictable person.
So I have decided not to vote for McCain as long as she is on the ticket.

About Obama,

I feel that he will cause this country to step back a few years. He will bring 'change' to the worst. He is not telling the American people what are his true views. He is an opportunist, big talker, that speaks what people want to hear, but doesn’t really mean it.

Therefore, I wont be voting for either one.
*****

I know I'm a long shot but, dear and respected Saul, would you consider voting for me as a write-in candidate? If elected I promise to make you head of the National Endowment for the Arts.
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Teresa B
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Teresa B » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:37 am

McCain's attack dog with lipstick
...And it's not just her lipstick that's hot. :twisted:
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Re: Palin's Problem Pastor

Post by GK » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:41 am

I expected to see a lot of Rev. Wright on Fox the next two months. Now this may not happen.

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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Chosen Barley » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:49 am

Yes, you responded adequately in a legalistic sense, and I found your reply most interesting. I was wondering if you could take off your law professor's wig & robe, so to speak, and answer just as a person. Do you think that someone is justified in doing or avoiding doing something by saying, "Oh, that's my religion; it won't let me do that." One hears this quite often. I am not talking about practices or speech that end up being prosecuted or where a lawyer needs to be consulted for any reason. I am wondering about this "it", ie, inherited or adopted religious set of rules & regs that people fall back on. to avoid examining themselves and what they wish to do.

Thank you very much for your trouble in responding to me. I could never be a lawyer (aside from all the book learning & exam writing) in that I would not wish to defend the socalled right of folks to do bad things to others. I recall a case where I live where a Muslim beat the crap out of his son because it's a cultural/religious practice in his homeland. The judge ruled he did not have the right, and gave him a punishment. But there was a lawyer defending him - on the basis of religion & culture.
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Ted

Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Ted » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:56 am

You can say that again*****

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by greymouse » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:59 am

Madame wrote:Did anyone see her youngest daughter Piper holding the baby and spitting on her hand to slick his hair down? Call me schmaltzy, but I about puddled up over that one.
The whole dynamic of their family was admittedly interesting to watch even though I feel like a jerk saying it. The way Todd handed Trig so easily to little Piper caught me off guard. I was also struck by an extended conversation between Willow and Piper - they both seemed very serious. Track looked restless and irritable. Levi seemed much more comfortable as an outsider, and really he looks just like Todd to me.

Sarah did a good job. A very aggressive speech, less uplifting than I would have liked. But she made her case clearly, and I agree with much of what she says.

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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:01 am

Chosen Barley wrote:Yes, you responded adequately in a legalistic sense, and I found your reply most interesting. I was wondering if you could take off your law professor's wig & robe, so to speak, and answer just as a person. Do you think that someone is justified in doing or avoiding doing something by saying, "Oh, that's my religion; it won't let me do that." One hears this quite often. I am not talking about practices or speech that end up being prosecuted or where a lawyer needs to be consulted for any reason. I am wondering about this "it", ie, inherited or adopted religious set of rules & regs that people fall back on. to avoid examining themselves and what they wish to do.

Thank you very much for your trouble in responding to me. I could never be a lawyer (aside from all the book learning & exam writing) in that I would not wish to defend the socalled right of folks to do bad things to others. I recall a case where I live where a Muslim beat the crap out of his son because it's a cultural/religious practice in his homeland. The judge ruled he did not have the right, and gave him a punishment. But there was a lawyer defending him - on the basis of religion & culture.
*****

I do not challenge people's practices based on their assertion that their religion requires them to do this or avoid that. Because of our location, my law school gets a steady minority of Orthodox Jews enrolling every year. They strictly observe the kosher laws. I suppose some could give me an intellectually grounded reason why they depend on the food they bring with them while I join them in the cafeteria with whatever is on offer. Others might be more comfortable by simply saying they follow the heritage of their families (which, often, is a way of avoiding a possibly intense intellectual exploration they neither want nor need).

When I was much younger I took great pleasure in trying by argument to undermine the faith of believers with regard to their ritualistic practices (fish for Catholics on Friday, all sorts of prohibitions for Jews). I was often successful not because I was right - there really is no such definitive possibility - but because I'm a hell of a debater. :) I grew out of that and I'm alternately amused and dismayed that my teen son is following the same path.

As to your comment about lawyers, every person is entitled to adequate and ethical representation. Most lawyers are competent, a few are brilliant, some are stupid, a small number dishonest. Our justice system works on an adversarial basis and within the confines of usually well understood ethical parameters, lawyers must advance any argument that may favor their clients' position. But, as your example shows, arguments that offend not only the law but common sense usually fail.

Time to put on my gown and wig and teach my Criminal Procedure course.
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by DavidRoss » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:22 am

I presume the images that Teresa and Ted published here are photoshopped. Even if they were real, their publication is shameless, sinking to the lowest common denominator, pandering to the prejudices of mindless bigots. This is nothing but a graphic form of vicious gossip, an especially tawdry sort of character assassination. I'm especially astonished that Teresa, an educated woman who is usually among the more thoughtful contributors here, would imply not so subtly that attractiveness somehow should disqualify a woman from consideration for office.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

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Re: FEMINISTS ROLL OUT GUNS AGAINST PALIN.

Post by slofstra » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:24 am

On a lighter note, Marg Wente observed in her Globe column this morning the incongruity of the culture wars with Christian conservative women on one side, supporting Palin for her daughter bearing a child out-of-wedlock, and opposed by many liberal women, criticizing her for being overly ambitious at a time when she has a 4 month old baby with special needs.
Last edited by slofstra on Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inexperience

Post by slofstra » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:31 am

GK wrote:It is obvious, based on the principal theme of last night's speeches, that the Republicans will soon reverse their ticket running Palin for president and McCain for VP. By their definition she is by far the more qualified of the two.
I understand McCain has never been a small-town mayor; I see your point.

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Re: Inexperience

Post by greymouse » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:51 am

I'd be interested in knowing how someone arrived at the low 2.4%. I think the actuarial number for the next 4 years should be closer to 14.36% using the following chart:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html

I'm taking L76/L72 here and subtracting from 1. But this is a very, very general approach and maybe too sloppy.

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Re: Inexperience

Post by slofstra » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:06 am

greymouse wrote:I'd be interested in knowing how someone arrived at the low 2.4%. I think the actuarial number for the next 4 years should be closer to 14.36% using the following chart:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html

I'm taking L76/L72 here and subtracting from 1. But this is a very, very general approach and maybe too sloppy.
Indeed, it looks like they simply took the probability of dying within one year at age 72, which is around 2.2% (rises to 2.4% at age 73). You could add the probabilities of the next 4 years and come fairly close - 2.2 + 2.4 + 2.7 + 2.9 percent. Although better: .022 + (1-.022) * .024 + (1- first 2 terms) * .027 and so on. Make a long story short - around 10%.

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Steinway » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:06 am

I wouldn't care if she posed nude, and I certainly don't condone this kind of crap, real or unreal.

The bottom line on Palin is that John McCain believes that she is the most qualified person in the nation to lead this country, should he falter. This is an outrage, an insult to the American people and a perfect example of his ability to make important decisions.

How could anyone, left or right, not be scared by this choice? The best the Republicans can offer??

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Sarah Palin, Right And Wrong..........

Post by stenka razin » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:10 am

A contrasting view..... :idea:

CNN editor's note: CNN contributor Hilary Rosen is the political director and Washington editor at large of HuffingtonPost.com, which describes itself as an Internet newspaper and focuses on politics from a liberal point of view. A longtime Democratic adviser, Rosen is a former CEO of the Recording Industry Association of America and supported Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.


Sarah Palin, Right And Wrong

by Hilary Rosen


Warning! This pundit isn't feeling the same way as many of my colleagues about Sarah Palin. She is being attacked for her lack of experience for the job and for whether she should be putting her family first instead of her career.

This just isn't that unusual in my book. And the more it goes on, the more uncomfortable I feel with that message.

Let's reflect. In her acceptance speech, we saw a woman who was compelling, charming and aggressively partisan. She succeeded in demonstrating that she is a regular mom who came to government to make a difference.

And she had that crowd in the convention hall eating out of her hands. Celebrity? It will be hard for the Republicans to attack Sen. Barack Obama for his celebrity now that they have one of their own.

A superstar of the radical right was made Wednesday night. And she may also have made some headway with those who buy her folksiness without knowing the extreme nature of her actual policy views. Read the transcript of Palin's speech

So where does this leave us as Democrats in making the case against Sarah Palin and her running mate for president? What is the choice now for the American people? There is a really strong case to be made against the McCain/Palin ticket and Democrats need to make it the right way, right away.

I am a woman who someone took a chance on several years ago when they gave me a job that had only previously been done by old white guys. Experience? How do you get any if no one takes a chance on you? And the decision to take a chance can be instinctive, as John McCain said.

And what about the argument that she is a negligent mother who will be distracted from her important role? I am a mother who constantly feels the pressure from others about whether I am fit to be a parent, whether I put my kids first often enough and whether my children get enough of my attention. Who has the right to judge my family?

My grandmother always said, "You can't tell time on someone else's clock." Judgments about people's personal lives are better left unsaid and unrealized.

So why then do I think that Sarah Palin would be a terrible vice president? Because I also think that John McCain would be a terrible president.

I don't care about how Sarah Palin or John McCain take care of their families. I care about how their policy choices affect my family and millions of other Americans.

McCain and Palin get their health insurance paid for by the government (hers in Alaska and his in Washington). Yet they oppose giving the nearly 46 million uninsured Americans the same access to affordable health care.

John McCain's kids don't have to worry about paying for college. Yet he has opposed every single education support program to help others.

McCain and Palin say they will stand up to oil companies. Yet the only energy policy they support gives millions of dollars in tax breaks to oil companies to do more drilling and he has opposed every piece of federal legislation to explore alternative fuel sources.

McCain and Palin say they will revamp how Washington does business. Yet his campaign is filled with lobbyists and she has cooperated with Sen. Ted Stevens in funneling federal money for useless projects in Alaska for years. And McCain and Palin have no solutions for Americans worrying about their jobs in a fragile economy.

McCain and Palin want us to leave their families alone. Yet they want to make rules for our families by eliminating our right to make our own choices over abortion, eliminate our access to family planning education or domestic partner benefits, and our freedom from discrimination.

They want to control what our kids learn in school about sex and about science. In short, through the policies they promote and the judges they support, they want the government to have more control over our private lives than at any time in history.

McCain and Palin now say their campaign is about change, too. Yet the only real change they have proposed is a change from a suit to a skirt in the vice president's office and one man fighting a misplaced war for another in the Oval Office.

That seems to me to be the right reason to oppose them in November. It's not the process or the people, it's what they represent. This unconventional choice of a vice presidential nominee by John McCain won't result in a win in November, because McCain and Palin are the wrong choice for the country.
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by stenka razin » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:49 am

Cliftwood wrote:I wouldn't care if she posed nude, and I certainly don't condone this kind of crap, real or unreal.

The bottom line on Palin is that John McCain believes that she is the most qualified person in the nation to lead this country, should he falter. This is an outrage, an insult to the American people and a perfect example of his ability to make important decisions.

How could anyone, left or right, not be scared by this choice? The best the Republicans can offer??
Cliftwood, I am in total agreement with you. Thank you :!:
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by pizza » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:49 am

Cliftwood wrote:I wouldn't care if she posed nude, and I certainly don't condone this kind of crap, real or unreal.

The bottom line on Palin is that John McCain believes that she is the most qualified person in the nation to lead this country, should he falter. This is an outrage, an insult to the American people and a perfect example of his ability to make important decisions.

How could anyone, left or right, not be scared by this choice? The best the Republicans can offer??
Total nonsense. She's done a pretty good job so far as governor of Alaska. Was electing her as governor an insult to Alaskans? She's a self-assured, accomplished, and well-qualified person and it's no wonder you and your fellow lefties are running scared.

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Re: Sarah Palin, Right And Wrong..........

Post by absinthe » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:52 am

Looks like this site is becoming a right palin-drome.

Well, she does look the same from both ends, don't she...?

Ted

Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Ted » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:58 am

No doubt a star was born last night. (The photos posted by Teresa and me are obvious fakes)
My worry is that she will give McCain that extra oooompgh that will in effect make their ticket appealing enough to beat Obama--this could be the one time where a VP candidate actually turns the tide

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 pm

Ted wrote:No doubt a star was born last night. (The photos posted by Teresa and me are obvious fakes)
My worry is that she will give McCain that extra oooompgh that will in effect make their ticket appealing enough to beat Obama--this could be the one time where a VP candidate actually turns the tide
*****

Conventions feature the faithful and their adulation would extend to Donald Duck were he to be nominated. Now all the candidates have to answer very specific questions and confront a barrage of ads put together by some of the most sophisticated political operatives around (in both parties).

My hunch is that the "inexperienced" angle has reached its high point and won't be a major factor in the debates. People will vote based on their belief that one of the tickets will bring about a better life for them.
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Barry » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 pm

Ted wrote:No doubt a star was born last night. (The photos posted by Teresa and me are obvious fakes)
My worry is that she will give McCain that extra oooompgh that will in effect make their ticket appealing enough to beat Obama--this could be the one time where a VP candidate actually turns the tide
Is your toaster broken, Ted? :wink:

While the people around me are in general agreement that Palin did a good job on the speech, they are also ripping her for having the baby there and passed around from person to person. I say they're too cynical and every candidate has their immediate family at their acceptance speech. Is it hypocritical to complain about the way the media was getting into rumors about the baby, then have him there at the speech? I think not.

I still am not nuts about her being on the ticket, but if she helps McCain win, I guess I'll deal with it.
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by DavidRoss » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:28 pm

Ted wrote:No doubt a star was born last night. (The photos posted by Teresa and me are obvious fakes)
My worry is that she will give McCain that extra oooompgh that will in effect make their ticket appealing enough to beat Obama--this could be the one time where a VP candidate actually turns the tide
After the feeding frenzy over the long weekend, Sarah Palin's performance last night left little doubt that she is up to the task and will be a formidable opponent. And when the American people get around to examining her record, they will recognize immediately that she's for real and has earned her shot at national office by virtue of both character and accomplishment--unlike that career good-old-boy gasbag Biden and his "talks a good game but has never once stepped up to the plate" running mate, Obama. And despite all of the Demo demagogues' effort to spin her choice as evidence of McCain's poor judgment, Sarah Palin herself is proving that his judgment is much better than the entire Democratic party and all the pundits in their pockets!

This game is over. If Obama is lucky he may carry his own state, Delaware, and New York. Before last night I would have said he had California locked up, too, but McCain and Palin's case is so compelling that even that may now be in doubt.

I see Ralph's post just sneaked in ahead of this one. Re. those "sophisticated political operatives" Do you mean those yahoos who--by attacking Palin, her family, her record, and McCain's judgment with distortion, innuendo, and outright lies--did more to energize the Republican base and win the sympathetic support of the broad middle than anything the Republicans could have accomplished without their help?
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Barry » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:32 pm

I can't agree that the game is over. I hope the GOP doesn't get as overconfident as the Obama supporters have been for so many months.
IMO, Obama is still a slight favorite to win. Let's see where the polls are early next week after the public has had a chance to fully digrest the convention and acceptance speeches.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:33 pm

DavidRoss wrote: This game is over. If Obama is lucky he may carry his own state, Delaware, and New York. Before last night I would have said he had California locked up, too, but McCain and Palin's case is so compelling that even that may now be in doubt.
The Dems have one chance in VP debates. Biden will have to absolutely demolish her on foreign policy in order to save the Obama camp. Doesn't seem likely.
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by absinthe » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:33 pm

They just put a shot of part of her "speech" on telly (yes, they're even pushing this stuff over here). She said (something like) "You know the difference between a hockey mom and a pit-bull? - Lipstick."

Not sure what she was trying to imply. She didn't appear to be wearing lipstick.
Is this hockey mom/pitbull thing something meaningful just to Americans?

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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Teresa B » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:36 pm

DavidRoss wrote:I presume the images that Teresa and Ted published here are photoshopped. Even if they were real, their publication is shameless, sinking to the lowest common denominator, pandering to the prejudices of mindless bigots. This is nothing but a graphic form of vicious gossip, an especially tawdry sort of character assassination. I'm especially astonished that Teresa, an educated woman who is usually among the more thoughtful contributors here, would imply not so subtly that attractiveness somehow should disqualify a woman from consideration for office.
Good grief, can we lighten up here? In the interest of being non-partisan:
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:43 pm

Teresa B wrote:
McCain's attack dog with lipstick
...And it's not just her lipstick that's hot. :twisted:
Woof :oops:
If I ever enter politics I will have to teach myself to behave! The second photo with the gun is kinda pushing it :lol:
I think Ahhnold knows who will be playing Sarah Connor in Terminator 4.
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Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:56 pm

We were raised
With the stick
And a pair of blades
On the ice we cut our teeth
We took our knocks
In the penalty box
Our mother was the referee
This sport was here
Before we came
It will be here when we're gone
The game's in our blood
And our blood's in the game
Lay us down under
A frozen pond
We will fight to the end
We will stand and defend
Our flag flying high and free
We were born the child
Of the strong and wild
In the state the state
Of hockey
A big blue line runs around our state
A line that can't be crossed
The day they try to take this game
Is the day the gloves come off
We will fight to the end
We will stand and defend
Our flag flag flying high and free
We were born the child
Of the strong and wild
In the state the state
Of hockey.


-- Minnesota Wild Anthem

I had just entered high school when my mom started changing... my brother started playing on the hockey team and boy, it makes moms a totally different kind of animal (I played on the basketball team :shock: ).
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Re: Inexperience

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:00 pm

Madame wrote:I read that, based upon current actuarial data, if Palin is elected and considered inexperienced, there is a 2.4% chance of having an inexperienced President but if Obama is elected, there is a 100% chance of having an inexperienced President. 8)
Even if Palin were the Presidential nominee vs. Obama, she would outweigh her opponent on several levels of experience (though, to Obama's credit, he has certain forms of experience that Republican candidates won't be able to achieve for a while).

What she does to this campaign is muddle the uncertainty Obama brings to electoral predictions based on political science.
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Re: Inexperience

Post by Ralph » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:05 pm

GK wrote:It is obvious, based on the principal theme of last night's speeches, that the Republicans will soon reverse their ticket running Palin for president and McCain for VP. By their definition she is by far the more qualified of the two.
*****

Amusing but legally impossible. The convention votes of both parties are binding.
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Re: Inexperience

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:06 pm

GK wrote:It is obvious, based on the principal theme of last night's speeches, that the Republicans will soon reverse their ticket running Palin for president and McCain for VP. By their definition she is by far the more qualified of the two.
You think she could donate some of her testosterone to McCain?
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Re: Inexperience

Post by DavidRoss » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:31 pm

slofstra wrote:
greymouse wrote:I'd be interested in knowing how someone arrived at the low 2.4%. I think the actuarial number for the next 4 years should be closer to 14.36% using the following chart:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html

I'm taking L76/L72 here and subtracting from 1. But this is a very, very general approach and maybe too sloppy.
Indeed, it looks like they simply took the probability of dying within one year at age 72, which is around 2.2% (rises to 2.4% at age 73). You could add the probabilities of the next 4 years and come fairly close - 2.2 + 2.4 + 2.7 + 2.9 percent. Although better: .022 + (1-.022) * .024 + (1- first 2 terms) * .027 and so on. Make a long story short - around 10%.
Per the actuarial tables linked above, at age 72 McCain's life expectancy is 12 years. At age 76, it would be 9.6 years.

If this argument is directed at the issue of Palin's experience, note that she already has substantially more experience in governing than either Obama or Biden, and that were she to serve as vice-president then she would quickly gain valuable experience in the areas (foreign relations and working with the Senate) in which Obama arguably has more experience than she--though since he has used his Senate seat as nothing more than a springboard to run for the Presidency, I'm not sure that his time there really amounts to any meaningful experience whatsoever.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

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Re: Inexperience

Post by slofstra » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:45 pm

DavidRoss wrote: Per the actuarial tables linked above, at age 72 McCain's life expectancy is 12 years. At age 76, it would be 9.6 years.
Your point?
If this argument is directed at the issue of Palin's experience, note that she already has substantially more experience in governing than either Obama or Biden, and that were she to serve as vice-president then she would quickly gain valuable experience in the areas (foreign relations and working with the Senate) in which Obama arguably has more experience than she--though since he has used his Senate seat as nothing more than a springboard to run for the Presidency, I'm not sure that his time there really amounts to any meaningful experience whatsoever.
"Quickly gain" experience in foreign relations?

How useful is Obama's 12 years experience as a lecturer in constitutional law compared to being a small town mayor? Similarly useful I take it?

Ted

Re: McCain's attack dog with lipstick

Post by Ted » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:54 pm

All I'm saying is don't discount sex and sizzle

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Re: Inexperience

Post by Barry » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:10 pm

slofstra wrote:
How useful is Obama's 12 years experience as a lecturer in constitutional law compared to being a small town mayor? Similarly useful I take it?
Not even close IMO. An academic lecturer isn't responsible for running anything or making difficult decisions that impact people's lives. If anything, too many years in academia may lead one to overanalyze everything to the point of not being able to make key decisions in a timely manner.
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http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
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A telling Palin video

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:18 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/0 ... 23205.html

As interesting as she is, this part of her just doesn't fly with me. You can't always get what you want.
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Re: Inexperience

Post by DavidRoss » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:30 pm

slofstra wrote:"Quickly gain" experience in foreign relations?
Yes. Is it so hard to understand that as vice-president she will have a place at the table where much of policy is made, and that in six months she's likely to gain more hands-on experience making and administering foreign policy than most Senators would gain during several terms in office?
slofstra wrote:How useful is Obama's 12 years experience as a lecturer in constitutional law compared to being a small town mayor? Similarly useful I take it?
Useful for what? As a lecturer about--not a practicioner of--Consitutional Law, Obama's experience in that capacity suggests that he might be qualified to lecture on Constitutional Law. However, he is not seeking a position as a lecturer, but rather as chief executive officer of the U.S. Federal government. His experience as a lecturer means nothing in that context, whereas most of the experience and skills developed in being a successful mayor are directly transferable to similar positions as chief executive in government, as witnessed by Palin's own experience in transitioning from mayor to Governor as well as the similar experiences of many others.

It's one thing to pontificate, posture, and theorize where there's nothing at stake except perhaps your own career. It's something quite different to be the responsible party where the buck stops (to quote Harry S. Truman) when people's livelihoods and welfare are on the line, and when you literally have to face the people directly affected by your decisions every day. Palin's 6 years of experience as mayor, followed by terms as Chairman of the Alaska Oil & Gas Conservation Commission and Governor of the State of Alaska, are absolutely relevant to her qualification for the vice-presidency and strong evidence of her ability to handle the responsibilities of the office.
Last edited by DavidRoss on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Re: Inexperience

Post by slofstra » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:31 pm

Barry wrote:
slofstra wrote:
How useful is Obama's 12 years experience as a lecturer in constitutional law compared to being a small town mayor? Similarly useful I take it?
Not even close IMO. An academic lecturer isn't responsible for running anything or making difficult decisions that impact people's lives. If anything, too many years in academia may lead one to overanalyze everything to the point of not being able to make key decisions in a timely manner.
Nonsense. Academic qualifications are only one aspect of the picture to be sure. But they must be at a very high level for those in the highest offices in business or government.
Americans romanticize too much about rags to riches. When I worked with the management team of a Swiss owned corporation I was surprised to learn that everyone on the parent company's board was required to have a Ph.D. This was a manufacturer of housewares, not a tech or research company. (They also all insisted on being addressed as "Doktor" but that's another story).

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