US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

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SaulChanukah

US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:15 am

By ASSOCIATED PRESS
NEW YORK
Updated Aug 21, 2009 9:42

Major Jewish groups and rabbis from the three largest branches of American Judaism said Thursday that their relationship with Roman Catholic leaders is at risk because of a recent US bishops' statement on salvation.

Jewish groups said they interpret the new document to mean that the bishops view interfaith dialogue as a chance to invite Jews to become Catholic. The Jewish leaders said they "pose no objection" to Christians sharing their faith, but said dialogue with Jews becomes "untenable" if the goal is to persuade Jews to accept Christ as their savior.

"A declaration of this sort is antithetical to the very essence of Jewish-Christian dialogue as we have understood it," Jewish leaders said in a letter to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. The signers were the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and rabbis representing the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform movements.

The statement fueling the tension was issued by the bishops in June to clarify a 2002 document called "Covenant and Mission." The bishops said the earlier document mistakenly played down the importance of sharing the Gospel and was therefore misleading.

"While the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate," said Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, Connecticut, chairman of a bishops' committee on doctrine. He had said the revisions affirmed statements from the Holy See.

The tensions are rooted in a complex theological debate about salvation for those outside the Catholic Church. Discussion of the issue between Jews and Catholics focuses on the significance of the ancient covenant between God and the Jews.



Pope John Paul II had spoken repeatedly of a covenant "never revoked." Many Jewish groups view the bishops' statement as stepping back from the pope's position.

Sister Mary Ann Walsh, a spokeswoman for the US bishops, said Thursday: "Catholic-Jewish dialogue has been important to the US bishops for almost 50 years. The bishops have just received the letter and currently are studying it."

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:56 am

It took all my latent Catholicity to find this thing; it was not at all straightforward. Then I had to put it through a PDF-Text converter, followed by laborious manual editing for legibility (call it my good deed for the day). :) My comment follows the text.


United States Conference of Catholic Bishops | Page 1 of 4


Issued by USCCB, June 18, 2009
Copyright © 2009 United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. All rights reserved.

A NOTE ON AMBIGUITIES CONTAINED IN REFLECTIONS ON COVENANT AND MISSION
Committee on Doctrine and Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

INTRODUCTION
1. On August 12, 2002, Jewish and Catholic scholars made public a document they had
composed entitled Reflections on Covenant and Mission, consisting of two parts, one presenting the "reflections" of the Catholic and another presenting those of the Jewish participants. The original initiative for the document came from the ongoing consultation between the National Council of Synagogues and the Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Catholic part of the document was written by scholars who made up an advisory group to the Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs. When the document was originally published on the USCCB website, it was mislabeled as a statement of the "Bishops' Ecumenical and Interreligious Affa irs Committee and the National Council of Synagogues." On August 16, 2002, Cardinal William H. Keeler, the USCCB Moderator for Catholic-Jewish Relations, explained that Reflections on Covenant and Mission "does not represent a formal position taken by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs." Instead, Cardinal Keeler stated, the document "represents the state of thought among the participants of a dialogue
that has been going on for a number of years between the U.S. Catholic Church and the Jewish community in this country." He added that the document was published in order "to encourage serious reflection on these matters by Jews and Catholics in the U.S."

2. Since Reflections on Covenant and Mission is not an official statement of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, it was not subject to the same review process that official documents undergo. In the years since its publication, however, some theologians, including Catholics, have treated the document as authoritative. This has proven problematic because the section representing Catholic thought contains some statements that are insufficiently precise and potentially misleading. Reflections on Covenant and Mission should not be taken as an authoritative presentation of the teaching of th e Catholic Church. In order to avoid any confusion, the USCCB Committee on Doctrine and the Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs have decided to point out some of these ambiguities and to offer corresponding clarifications.

= Page 1 =
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops | Page 2 of 4


THE RELATIONSHIP OF CHRISTIANITY TO JUDAISM
3. The principal ambiguities in question involve th e description of the Church's mission and, in particular, what evangelization means with regard to the Jewish people. Reflections on Covenant and Mission rightly acknowledges that the mission of the Church is evangelization, carrying the Good News of Jesus Christ to the whole world, and that this task "cannot be separated from [the Church’s] faith in Jesus Christ." At the same time, the document is very careful to acknowledge the special status of the Jews as the people to whom God revealed himself and from whom came the Messiah, Jesus Christ: "Christianity has an utterly unique relationship with Judaism because 'our two religious communities are connected and closely related at the very level of their respective religious identities.'"

4. Catholic evangelization relative to the Jews will correspondingly take an "utterly unique"
form—precisely because God has already establishe d a particular relations hip with the Jewish people, going back to the call of Abraham. The Second Vatican Council declared:

The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old
Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the
Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that
well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.

5. The document correctly acknowledges that "Judaism is a religion that springs from divine
revelation" and that "it is only about Israel's cove nant that the Church can speak with the certainty of the biblical witness."

6 Nevertheless, it is incomplete and potentially misleading in this context to refer to the enduring quality of the covenant without adding that for Catholics Jesus Christ as the incarnate Son of God fulfills both in history and at the end of time the special relationship that God established with Israel. The Second Vatican Council explained:

The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare
for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce
this coming by prophecy, and to indicate its meaning through various types.

7. The long story of God's intervention in the hi story of Israel comes to its unsurpassable
culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man. Reflections on Covenant and Mission provides a clear acknowledgment of the relationship established by God with Israel prior to Jesu s Christ. This acknowledgment needs to be accompanied, however, by a clear affirmation of the Church's belief that Jesus Christ in himself fulfills God’s revelation begun with Abraham a nd that proclaiming this good news to all the world is at the heart of her mission. Reflections on Covenant and Mission, however, lacks such an affirmation and thus presents a diminished notion of evangelization.

= Page 2 =
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops | Page 3 of 4


THE CHURCH'S MISSION OF EVANGELIZATION AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE
7. Reflections on Covenant and Mission maintains that a definition of evangelization as the
"invitation to a commitment of faith in Jesus Christ and to entry through baptism into the
community of believers which is the Church" is a "very narrow construal" of her mission.

8. In its effort to present a broader and fuller con ception of evangelization, however, the document develops a vision of it in which the core elements of proclamation and invitation to life in Christ seem virtually to disappear. For example, Reflections on Covenant and Mission proposes interreligious dialogue as a form of evangelization that is "a mutually enriching sharing of gifts devoid of any intention whatsoever to invite the dialogue partner to baptism."

9. Though Christian participation in interreligious dialogue would not normally incl ude an explicit invitation to baptism and entrance into the Church, the Christia n dialogue partner is always giving witness to the following of Christ, to which all are implicitly invited.
Reflections on Covenant and Mission correctly asserts that the Church "must always
evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God's kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people."

10. It also rightly affirms that the Church respects religious freedom as well as freedom of conscience and that, while the Church does not have a policy that singles out the Jews as a people for conversion, she will always welcome "sincere individual converts from any tradition or pe ople, including the Jewish people."

11. This focus on the individual, however, fails to account for St. Paul's complete teaching about the inclusion of the Jewish people as whole in Christ's salvation. In Romans 11:25-26, he explained that when "the full number of the Gentiles comes in . . . all Israel will be saved." He di d not specify when that would take place or ho w it would come about.

12. This is a mystery that awaits its fulfillment. Nevertheless, St. Paul told us to look forward to the inclusion of the whole people of Israel, which will be a great blessing for the world (Rom 11:12).
Reflections on Covenant and Mission , however, renders even the possibility of individual
conversion doubtful by a further statement that im plies it is generally not good for Jews to
convert, nor for Catholics to do anything that might lead Jews to conversion because it threatens to eliminate "the distinctive Jewish witness": "Their [the Jewish people's] witness to the kingdom, which did not originate with the Church's experience of Christ crucified and raised, must not be curtailed by seeking the convers ion of the Jewish people to Christianity."

13. Some caution should be introduced here, since this li ne of reasoning could lead some to conclude mistakenly that Jews have an obligation not to become Christian and that the Church has a corresponding obligation not to baptize Jews.

CONCLUSION

With St. Paul, we acknowledge that God does not regret, repent of, or change his mind about the "gifts and the call" that he has given to the Jewish people (Rom 11:29). At the same time, we also believe that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ. By God's grace, the right to hear this Good News belongs to every generation. Fulfilling the mandate given her by the Lord, the Church, respecting human freedom, proclaims the truths of the Gospel in love.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church still considers itself the one true church, and still follows the doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there is no salvation). This has been much watered down in recent years by expanding the notion of just what "outside the church" means to something less literal, but it has never stopped being the official teaching. So as not to appear to be varying from ancient doctrine, any time a pronouncement is made about other faiths, some sort of qualifier is always there, explicitly or by reference, to avoid the appearance that the church accepts in principle the equality of religions in the matter of salvation. (In evaluating the situation, one might make note that the concept of salvation is not meaningful to all religions in the first place.) To many, this is not a very attractive thought in a supposedly ecumenical age, but it is no new development. (If you think the voice of the Catholic bishops is a shocker, you should catch the Orthodox on the subject sometime--they still think that even official Catholicdom strayed from the true faith a thousand years ago.)

IMO the current ruckus is another case of ignoring the gopher while he's underground but shooting him if he happens to pop up from the ground next to you. In other words, when and in what tones these kinds of reactions occur depends as much as anything else on who happened to talk to whom or read what; reacting to this item at this time rather than some other manifestation of the same unchanged situation is purely arbitrary.

None of this should be interpreted as my defending (or criticizing) any aspect of the teaching, or trying to tell people how they should or should not feel about it. I present this analysis, if that's what it is, as an informed but unengaged observer.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Cyril Ignatius
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:49 pm

This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
Cyril Ignatius

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:07 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote:This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
What about John and Paul who said vicious anti-Semitic propaganda in the 'New Testament'?

Should the Church get rid of these writings?

What's your say?

Brendan

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Brendan » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:14 pm

How about the nasty parts of what Christians refer to as the Old Testament? Ready to get rid of any of your scriptures?

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:21 pm

Brendan wrote:How about the nasty parts of what Christians refer to as the Old Testament? Ready to get rid of any of your scriptures?
First find any anti christian propganda in Our Torah and then demand to delete those sections...

And if you'll dare to delete the Old Testament then you should be ready to get rid of your religion, becuase there is no Christianity without Judaism and the Torah.

Brendan

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Brendan » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:30 pm

Since the OT pre-dated Christianity it is not possible to do so. But if one were a Philistine one may feel a little racial overtone or two.

Don't be ridiculous. The Christian faith and Catholic Church cannot change their definitive scriptures any more than your religion can.

Tiger
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Tiger » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:31 pm

This is much ado about nothing. With minimal exceptions, Jewish people would rather be killed than convert to the Catholic faith. No offense to the Catholics on the board, but your religion holds zero interest for Jews.

Really, I doubt that the Catholic Church is salivating at the thought of converting Jews. It's just like Saul to try to make an issue out of the thin air.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:53 pm

Brendan wrote:Since the OT pre-dated Christianity it is not possible to do so. But if one were a Philistine one may feel a little racial overtone or two.

Don't be ridiculous. The Christian faith and Catholic Church cannot change their definitive scriptures any more than your religion can.
Philistines now?

Man...

The Philistines were attacking the Jews for years for no reason. The Jews lived in Israel , the Philistines lived in the Land of Philistines. There were no territorial disputes, read the book of Judges and see for yourself. So why did the Philistine tribe attack the Jews for so many years?

Hate.

On the other hand, why did Paul and John write such vicious anti Semitic writings on the Jewish people?

What did the Jews ever did to Christians?

Kill Jesus?

Yes we did, but not because of Christians, but because of our faith. He was one of ours anyways. Should we Jews create hate speeches on the English people because they killed some dreamer amongst them who threatened the unity of the British people and wanted to destroy their religion? Of course not, its not our business what happens in the internal affairs of the British Empire, they have their own courts and their own legal system and can decide for themselves how to govern themselves. The Jews deserve the same treatment from others. If the Jewish court decided that Jesus was a false prophet and should be killed, its not anyone's business what takes places in the internal affairs of the Jewish Kingdom. We have the right to govern ourselves.

Having the right to govern yourself is not an act of evilness, its the most natural state of every healthy society.

We are commanded in the Torah to kill a false prophet because a false prophet can destroy the entire religion and the whole people. As you mentioned that the Torah was before the NT, and the commandment of killing a false prophet is a biblical commandment by the God of Israel.

So according to you the Jews should have not followed the word of God and should have erased the commandment from the Torah? Is that what you are suggesting?

And since they were faithful to the Torah, Paul and John were infuriated and wrote anti Semitic crap on the Jews.

Is that your logic? that been faithful to your religion and following the commandments should render you to become a target for hate speeches?

Why can't the Christian church delete the anti Semitic sections in the NT written by John and Paul?

Can you explain, Brendan? I would like to hear your view.

Brendan

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Brendan » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:45 pm

Actually, the Jews took their holy land from the inhabitants, whom they largely slaughtered according to Biblical accounts (and largely merged with according to archaelogy etc).

Why can't the Jews remove those sections of their scriptures that offend others? Because the scriptures are definitive of the religion, as the Christian scriptures are for theirs. And if the Catholic Church actually did this, it would simply divide Christianity further, as Orthodox and Protestant churches would be unlikely to follow suit.

Your inability to understand the most basic concepts, or apply your own reasoning to your own religion, renders everything you say about he matter childish and ridiculous, as usual.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:40 pm

Brendan wrote:Actually, the Jews took their holy land from the inhabitants, whom they largely slaughtered according to Biblical accounts (and largely merged with according to archaelogy etc).

Why can't the Jews remove those sections of their scriptures that offend others? Because the scriptures are definitive of the religion, as the Christian scriptures are for theirs. And if the Catholic Church actually did this, it would simply divide Christianity further, as Orthodox and Protestant churches would be unlikely to follow suit.

Your inability to understand the most basic concepts, or apply your own reasoning to your own religion, renders everything you say about he matter childish and ridiculous, as usual.
The Jews took their holy land because it belonged to them, why is that a sin?
To take what is yours? The Torah in Genesis says that Abraham Isaac and the 12 Tribes lived in Israel and that God gave this land to the Jews. So there was nothing wrong by taking what is legally yours. So your entire reasoning is flawed. You must also accept the fact that God gave Israel to the Jewish people because your faith is built upon the truthfulness of the Torah. In other words, I don't need your NT but you must need my Torah.

So since we established that the Jews had done nothing wrong by taking what is rightfully theirs, and that therefore they don't need to edit or delete anything from the Torah, why then Christians fail to delete offensive and vicious anti Semitic writings of Paul and John against the Jews?

The Jews have done nothing wrong to the Christians, so why stay with the vicious propaganda in the NT?

You have no answer, I know. Its a critical problem which you are trying to avoid by formulating poorly conceived and unfounded similarities that have no place in reality.

The fact is that John and Paul were anti Semitic, and that is wrong, and their writings need to be removed.

And by the way, the ancient medieval accusation of the Europeans against the Jews that they killed Christian children to use for Passover Matzos pales in comparison to the one accusation that is so dark and wicked, evil and unbelievably idiotic, the accusation of the early Christians such as Paul and John that the Jews had killed the god of the universe.

Is there any other accusation conceived by any human or any people, or any religion that is worse than this?

No, so why do the Christians don't shame to listen and follow people of no morals and conscience? they for sure are MUCH WORSE then those who accused the Jews of killing Christian children for blood.

Dont you agree?

Can't you see how back warded and how wicked the early Christians were by accusing the Children of Israel with this demonstrably and astronomically unfounded and delusional accusation?

I'll tell you why the Europeans became so stupid to accuse the peaceful and gentle Jewish community of murdering children for blood. It was the accusation of the early Christian Church that the Jews had killed god. If the Jews can kill god , so the Euros thought, for sure they will not care if they killed children, that was their thought process.

So if we truly want to stop these anti Semitic accusations, we need to go to the source, the NT.

The NT must delete all anti Semitic propaganda, with the emphasis of the biggest Anti Semitic lie, that the Jews had killed god.

This is the truth.

This of course the Christians will never accept, because this will be the end of Christianity. Therefore it continues to be an anti semitic religion.

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by david johnson » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:19 am

"While the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,"

of course, Saul. that's what churches are supposed to do. duh!
you have been brainwashed and would really benefit from coming out of your darkness regarding christianity. when you rant you come across as prejudiced as any anti-semite...just in the reverse direction.

dj

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:35 am

david johnson wrote:"While the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,"

of course, Saul. that's what churches are supposed to do. duh!
you have been brainwashed and would really benefit from coming out of your darkness regarding christianity. when you rant you come across as prejudiced as any anti-semite...just in the reverse direction.

dj
Its no darkness, I just read history. Read some history it might help you see what the anti semitic accusations of Christianity did to the Jewish people for 2000 years.

Cyril Ignatius
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:00 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
What about John and Paul who said vicious anti-Semitic propaganda in the 'New Testament'?

Should the Church get rid of these writings?

What's your say?
No, the Church should get rid of none of these writings. They are part of the large series of writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers. And they must be seen within the large breadth of those writings.

The Jews and the Nation of Israel have very much to worry about right now and in the coming months and years. But the sayings and doings of real Christians are not among those things. By-and-large, the support for Jews and the nation of Israel is very strong among Christians. Those who say and do things that Jews have a reason to be concerned about are 1) the radical fascistic portions of the Muslim world, 2) European socialist political elites who have shown themselves perfectly willing to throw Jews under the bus to appease the aggressive Islamo-fascists in Europe and the Middle-East, and 3) the postmodern-leftist portions of Christianity who are religiously collapsing and resorting to the politics of political correctness to find meaning and purpose.
Cyril Ignatius

Barry
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Barry » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:20 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote: No, the Church should get rid of none of these writings. They are part of the large series of writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers. And they must be seen within the large breadth of those writings.

The Jews and the Nation of Israel have very much to worry about right now and in the coming months and years. But the sayings and doings of real Christians are not among those things. By-and-large, the support for Jews and the nation of Israel is very strong among Christians. Those who say and do things that Jews have a reason to be concerned about are 1) the radical fascistic portions of the Muslim world, 2) European socialist political elites who have shown themselves perfectly willing to throw Jews under the bus to appease the aggressive Islamo-fascists in Europe and the Middle-East, and 3) the postmodern-leftist portions of Christianity who are religiously collapsing and resorting to the politics of political correctness to find meaning and purpose.
Agreed.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

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http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
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SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:28 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
What about John and Paul who said vicious anti-Semitic propaganda in the 'New Testament'?

Should the Church get rid of these writings?

What's your say?
No, the Church should get rid of none of these writings. They are part of the large series of writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers. And they must be seen within the large breadth of those writings.

The Jews and the Nation of Israel have very much to worry about right now and in the coming months and years. But the sayings and doings of real Christians are not among those things. By-and-large, the support for Jews and the nation of Israel is very strong among Christians. Those who say and do things that Jews have a reason to be concerned about are 1) the radical fascistic portions of the Muslim world, 2) European socialist political elites who have shown themselves perfectly willing to throw Jews under the bus to appease the aggressive Islamo-fascists in Europe and the Middle-East, and 3) the postmodern-leftist portions of Christianity who are religiously collapsing and resorting to the politics of political correctness to find meaning and purpose.
Then you're saying that the Church should keep all the anti Semitic propaganda in their writings intact?
Yes, that's what you said, you were clear enough.

I know that it is impossible to delete this sections from the NT because these anti Semitic writings are the corner stone and the basis for your entire faith.
Christianity will cease to exist without these writings, but staying with a religion that did such injustices is not an excuse not to face the truth and do the right thing.

The right thing is to delete these sections, even at the cost of religion, even if Christianity will end as a faith because of this editing still it would be the proper thing to do.

There are things greater then religion and faith, and they are truth and justice.

If there is no truth, the religion can't stand on lie. Same goes with faith, if its not based on truth, it will end.

My point is this:

Is there any truth to the demand of the Jewish community from Christians to delete these anti Semitic writings?

Clearly yes, there is no justification in demonizing people , especially when they have done nothing wrong.

What the Nazis said of the Jews that they were blood suckers and greedy and evil demons pales in comparison with what John and Paul had said about the Jews. Wouldn’t Christians today be outraged if nazis get a hold of the media and spew this hate against the Jews? I'm sure that many Christians will be offended and disturbed.

If that is the case, why there is no outcry when worse is been said and preached from the NT?

Because the ones who wrote this garbage were 'saints'?

Saints really write these crap?

Saints don’t write things like this, trust me. Liars do, wicked people do, hateful people do, not righteous ones.

So in my opinion and I'm using the power of logic here, if the price of deleting these anti Semitic propaganda from the Christian writings will mean the beginning of the end of the Christian faith, then for the sake of truth and justice and for the love of righteousness, it should be done regardless.

I know its a high price, too high for some to bare, but it aint higher then the truth.

I have nothing against the Christian faith. The only problem I have is their anti Semitic writings, if they will delete those and Christianity would be able to survive after this editing, then let it survive and thrive. I have absolutely nothing against it beside this imperative point.
Last edited by SaulChanukah on Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cyril Ignatius
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:42 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
What about John and Paul who said vicious anti-Semitic propaganda in the 'New Testament'?

Should the Church get rid of these writings?

What's your say?
No, the Church should get rid of none of these writings. They are part of the large series of writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers. And they must be seen within the large breadth of those writings.

The Jews and the Nation of Israel have very much to worry about right now and in the coming months and years. But the sayings and doings of real Christians are not among those things. By-and-large, the support for Jews and the nation of Israel is very strong among Christians. Those who say and do things that Jews have a reason to be concerned about are 1) the radical fascistic portions of the Muslim world, 2) European socialist political elites who have shown themselves perfectly willing to throw Jews under the bus to appease the aggressive Islamo-fascists in Europe and the Middle-East, and 3) the postmodern-leftist portions of Christianity who are religiously collapsing and resorting to the politics of political correctness to find meaning and purpose.
The you're saying that the Church should keep all the anti Semitic propaganda in their writings intact?
Yes, that's what you said, you were clear enough.

I know that it is impossible to delete this sections from the NT because these anti Semitic writings are the corner stone and the basis for your entire faith.
Christianity will cease to exist without these writings, but staying with a religion that did such injustices is not an excuse not to face the truth and do the right thing.

The right thing is to delete these sections, even at the cost of religion, even if Christianity will end as a faith because of this editing still it would be the proper thing to do.

There are things greater then religion and faith, and they are truth and justice.

If there is no truth, the religion can't stand on lie. Same goes with faith, if its not based on truth, it will end.

My point is this:

Is there any truth to the demand of the Jewish community from Christians to delete these anti Semitic writings?

Clearly yes, there is no justification in demonizing people , especially when they have done nothing wrong.

What the Nazis said of the Jews that they were blood suckers and greedy and evil demons pales in comparison with what John and Paul had said about the Jews. Wouldn’t Christians today be outraged if nazis get a hold of the media and spew this hate against the Jews? I'm sure that many Christians will be offended and disturbed.

If that is the case, why there is no outcry when worse is been said and preached from the NT?

Because the ones who wrote this garbage were 'saints'?

Saints really write these crap?

Saints don’t write things like this, trust me. Liars do, wicked people do, hateful people do, not righteous ones.

So in my opinion and I'm using the power of logic here, if the price of deleting these anti Semitic propaganda from the Christian writings will mean the beginning of the end of the Christian faith, then for the sake of truth and justice and for the love of righteousness, it should be done regardless.

I know its a high price, too high for some to bare, but it aint higher then the truth.

I have nothing against the Christian faith. The only problem I have is their anti Semitic writings, if they will delete those and Christianity would be able to survive after this editing, then let it survive and thrive. I have absolutely nothing against it beside this imperative point.

You need to go back to Paul's statements and see them within the larger context of A) Paul's theology and evangelization project, and B) the Church's statements on the relationship between Christianity and Judaism. To read anti-semitism into Paul's large body of writings is to misrepresent Paul and the Catholic Church, and to waste alot of time and energy at the cost of the very large and real threats to Jews coming from other circles. And it would be a pointless waste of energy that only plays into identity politics.
Cyril Ignatius

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:48 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
What about John and Paul who said vicious anti-Semitic propaganda in the 'New Testament'?

Should the Church get rid of these writings?

What's your say?
No, the Church should get rid of none of these writings. They are part of the large series of writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers. And they must be seen within the large breadth of those writings.

The Jews and the Nation of Israel have very much to worry about right now and in the coming months and years. But the sayings and doings of real Christians are not among those things. By-and-large, the support for Jews and the nation of Israel is very strong among Christians. Those who say and do things that Jews have a reason to be concerned about are 1) the radical fascistic portions of the Muslim world, 2) European socialist political elites who have shown themselves perfectly willing to throw Jews under the bus to appease the aggressive Islamo-fascists in Europe and the Middle-East, and 3) the postmodern-leftist portions of Christianity who are religiously collapsing and resorting to the politics of political correctness to find meaning and purpose.
The you're saying that the Church should keep all the anti Semitic propaganda in their writings intact?
Yes, that's what you said, you were clear enough.

I know that it is impossible to delete this sections from the NT because these anti Semitic writings are the corner stone and the basis for your entire faith.
Christianity will cease to exist without these writings, but staying with a religion that did such injustices is not an excuse not to face the truth and do the right thing.

The right thing is to delete these sections, even at the cost of religion, even if Christianity will end as a faith because of this editing still it would be the proper thing to do.

There are things greater then religion and faith, and they are truth and justice.

If there is no truth, the religion can't stand on lie. Same goes with faith, if its not based on truth, it will end.

My point is this:

Is there any truth to the demand of the Jewish community from Christians to delete these anti Semitic writings?

Clearly yes, there is no justification in demonizing people , especially when they have done nothing wrong.

What the Nazis said of the Jews that they were blood suckers and greedy and evil demons pales in comparison with what John and Paul had said about the Jews. Wouldn’t Christians today be outraged if nazis get a hold of the media and spew this hate against the Jews? I'm sure that many Christians will be offended and disturbed.

If that is the case, why there is no outcry when worse is been said and preached from the NT?

Because the ones who wrote this garbage were 'saints'?

Saints really write these crap?

Saints don’t write things like this, trust me. Liars do, wicked people do, hateful people do, not righteous ones.

So in my opinion and I'm using the power of logic here, if the price of deleting these anti Semitic propaganda from the Christian writings will mean the beginning of the end of the Christian faith, then for the sake of truth and justice and for the love of righteousness, it should be done regardless.

I know its a high price, too high for some to bare, but it aint higher then the truth.

I have nothing against the Christian faith. The only problem I have is their anti Semitic writings, if they will delete those and Christianity would be able to survive after this editing, then let it survive and thrive. I have absolutely nothing against it beside this imperative point.

You need to go back to Paul's statements and see them within the larger context of A) Paul's theology and evangelization project, and B) the Church's statements on the relationship between Christianity and Judaism. To read anti-semitism into Paul's large body of writings is to misrepresent Paul and the Catholic Church, and to waste alot of time and energy at the cost of the very large and real threats to Jews coming from other circles. And it would be a pointless waste of energy that only plays into identity politics.
I don't need to see the 'Church's Statements' , I just have to read the history, and its a bloody one, thanks to the statements of John and Paul among others who helped set these events in motion. Forget for a moment this discussion from a Jewish perspective and try to view it from a Christian one.

Doesn’t it bother you that Christian writings are full of anti Semitic rhetoric?

You are a decent person, right, so where is your outrage?

You're talking about context, who needs context when we have history and facts?

Cyril Ignatius
Posts: 1035
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Location: Pennsylvania

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:14 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:This is an inevitable tension that cannot be eliminated. If the Catholic Church didn't say and fully believe what Benedict, John Paul11 and the Fathers of the Church have said and believed for 2000 years, it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. It would be a social club. Just look at what happens to the many churches that constantly adjust their teachings to the climate of the times and the fashions and whims of intellectuals or the popular culture.

The Catholic Church has made many commendable gestures to Jews over the past decades, and this is excellent. But it cannot and should not alter was is essential doctrine; what is foundational to the faith. That isn't legitimate ecumenism.
What about John and Paul who said vicious anti-Semitic propaganda in the 'New Testament'?

Should the Church get rid of these writings?

What's your say?
You are walking a well-trodden path that is circular. Read John Paul II and Pope Benedict's statements on these issues. Then look at the last 50 years of social and religious history. Your path goes nowhere.....
No, the Church should get rid of none of these writings. They are part of the large series of writings of the Apostles and Church Fathers. And they must be seen within the large breadth of those writings.

The Jews and the Nation of Israel have very much to worry about right now and in the coming months and years. But the sayings and doings of real Christians are not among those things. By-and-large, the support for Jews and the nation of Israel is very strong among Christians. Those who say and do things that Jews have a reason to be concerned about are 1) the radical fascistic portions of the Muslim world, 2) European socialist political elites who have shown themselves perfectly willing to throw Jews under the bus to appease the aggressive Islamo-fascists in Europe and the Middle-East, and 3) the postmodern-leftist portions of Christianity who are religiously collapsing and resorting to the politics of political correctness to find meaning and purpose.
The you're saying that the Church should keep all the anti Semitic propaganda in their writings intact?
Yes, that's what you said, you were clear enough.

I know that it is impossible to delete this sections from the NT because these anti Semitic writings are the corner stone and the basis for your entire faith.
Christianity will cease to exist without these writings, but staying with a religion that did such injustices is not an excuse not to face the truth and do the right thing.

The right thing is to delete these sections, even at the cost of religion, even if Christianity will end as a faith because of this editing still it would be the proper thing to do.

There are things greater then religion and faith, and they are truth and justice.

If there is no truth, the religion can't stand on lie. Same goes with faith, if its not based on truth, it will end.

My point is this:

Is there any truth to the demand of the Jewish community from Christians to delete these anti Semitic writings?

Clearly yes, there is no justification in demonizing people , especially when they have done nothing wrong.

What the Nazis said of the Jews that they were blood suckers and greedy and evil demons pales in comparison with what John and Paul had said about the Jews. Wouldn’t Christians today be outraged if nazis get a hold of the media and spew this hate against the Jews? I'm sure that many Christians will be offended and disturbed.

If that is the case, why there is no outcry when worse is been said and preached from the NT?

Because the ones who wrote this garbage were 'saints'?

Saints really write these crap?

Saints don’t write things like this, trust me. Liars do, wicked people do, hateful people do, not righteous ones.

So in my opinion and I'm using the power of logic here, if the price of deleting these anti Semitic propaganda from the Christian writings will mean the beginning of the end of the Christian faith, then for the sake of truth and justice and for the love of righteousness, it should be done regardless.

I know its a high price, too high for some to bare, but it aint higher then the truth.

I have nothing against the Christian faith. The only problem I have is their anti Semitic writings, if they will delete those and Christianity would be able to survive after this editing, then let it survive and thrive. I have absolutely nothing against it beside this imperative point.

You need to go back to Paul's statements and see them within the larger context of A) Paul's theology and evangelization project, and B) the Church's statements on the relationship between Christianity and Judaism. To read anti-semitism into Paul's large body of writings is to misrepresent Paul and the Catholic Church, and to waste alot of time and energy at the cost of the very large and real threats to Jews coming from other circles. And it would be a pointless waste of energy that only plays into identity politics.
I don't need to see the 'Church's Statements' , I just have to read the history, and its a bloody one, thanks to the statements of John and Paul among others who helped set these events in motion. Forget for a moment this discussion from a Jewish perspective and try to view it from a Christian one.

Doesn’t it bother you that Christian writings are full of anti Semitic rhetoric?

You are a decent person, right, so where is your outrage?

You're talking about context, who needs context when we have history and facts?
Cyril Ignatius

Cosima__J

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cosima__J » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Saul, for some reason, a comment that I tried to post did not show up on this thread. Disappeared down a black hole somewhere.

Anyway, you know from previous posts I have made on this board that I very much respect your love of God and your Jewish faith. I wish you would cite a couple of the passages from the New Testament that you are talking about. I'm no expert on the Bible, but from a couple of courses I've taken, I've learned that it takes a lot of background knowledge to really understand some of the passages. Maybe somebody here can shed more light on the parts you find objectionable.

For example, in studying the OT, some people in the class strenuously objected to the passage that refers to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Kinda vicious retribution some people thought. Our teacher explained that this was actually an attempt at making punishment more humane. If someone put your eye out, you should not kill them, but only seek punishment proportional to the crime. Well, looking at it that way, it makes good sense.

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by david johnson » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:59 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
david johnson wrote:"While the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate,"

of course, Saul. that's what churches are supposed to do. duh!
you have been brainwashed and would really benefit from coming out of your darkness regarding christianity. when you rant you come across as prejudiced as any anti-semite...just in the reverse direction.

dj
Its no darkness, I just read history. Read some history it might help you see what the anti semitic accusations of Christianity did to the Jewish people for 2000 years.

Baloney, Saul. I'll match you on history anyday. You must toss out your anti-christian propaganda to be considered seriously.

dj

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:19 pm

Sorry to interrupt an unending thread.

How about letting Catholics be Catholics and Jews be Jews.

Saul, enjoy your religion and let others enjoy theirs.
What difference does it make anyway in today's world?
Israel, as Cyril said, has much more to worry about than
what the ancients said to the people of their day.

Besides, accusations breed distrust, distrust breeds hatred
and hatred breeds war. So how about shaking hands, respecting
each others beliefs and leaving well alone.
-------------

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:29 pm

Cosima__J wrote:Saul, for some reason, a comment that I tried to post did not show up on this thread. Disappeared down a black hole somewhere.

Anyway, you know from previous posts I have made on this board that I very much respect your love of God and your Jewish faith. I wish you would cite a couple of the passages from the New Testament that you are talking about. I'm no expert on the Bible, but from a couple of courses I've taken, I've learned that it takes a lot of background knowledge to really understand some of the passages. Maybe somebody here can shed more light on the parts you find objectionable.

For example, in studying the OT, some people in the class strenuously objected to the passage that refers to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Kinda vicious retribution some people thought. Our teacher explained that this was actually an attempt at making punishment more humane. If someone put your eye out, you should not kill them, but only seek punishment proportional to the crime. Well, looking at it that way, it makes good sense.

Hi Cosima,

You need to know that 75 percent of the Jewish community in the United States is not religious, that is follows Halacha, Jewish law. They don't have the know-how and tools to counter Christian missionary activities. Having this in mind, the official Christian position of targeting Jews among others for conversion posses a danger to the future of the Jewish community. The ancient Christian position of forcing Jews to convert under the pain of death has ceased and I do acknowledge the progress of Christianity in that avenue. Today Christians don't force people to convert by the power of the sword, but they do continue proselytizing, and that is unacceptable to the Jewish community. Jews want to be left alone, we don't want our Christian neighbors knocking on our doors with messages about Jesus and Christianity. Do you have any idea how many times I have personally encountered Christians trying to push leaflets and papers and books and magazines on Christianity? Why do they invade my personal choice to be a Jew and practice it free of any duress or intimidation? I remember when I first came to the United States when I was 12 and I was not educated so much in Judaism, I was only a kid, I lived with my grandparents. Every now and then, the Christian missionaries would knock on our doors and leave some Christian missionary magazines. I never understood what why these people so often disturbed our privacy and gave us these unasked for papers. This happened when I used to live in Queens NY. I remember that there the Christian missionaries targeted the Jewish community most heavily.

Later on I was educated in Yeshiva and studied Jewish history, so they don't have any influence over me. What about those who don't know?
They could very easily be swept and get lured by these Christians. We Jews are only 15 million, and our numbers can get diminished if those who don't know will be influenced by the missionaries. The Christian insensitivity towards these Jewish concerns creates in the mind of the Jewish people a feeling that these Christians don't care for the Jewish people or for the Jewish religion, all they care about is their Christian teachings that say that you must convert people no matter what.

The early Christians who blamed the Jews with outrageous accusations such as been cold blooded murderers who used the blood of Christian children for their Passover Matzos, was a most terrible myth, such that teaches us the dark and low state of mind of Christian Europe. Now thank God any human being with a head on his shoulders knows that these were vicious and unfounded anti Semitic myths. But for us Jews the hunting of our children for conversion is no less then an attempt to murder our children spiritually. Once this will be achieved then the murder of the distinct Jewish community will be achieved God forbid, because there will be no Jews who will practice Judaism.

For the Christians it is a most noble aim and a respectful achievement, but for the Jewish community it is a devastation.

Christian indifference to this very basic concerns of the Jewish community breeds distrust and animosity and disrespect and the only guilty party here are the Christians.

You might claim that today Jews are facing many problems and therefore should concentrate on their immediate problems such as Muslim terrorism and Arab aggression.

But let me tell you something, Christian attempts to convert Jews is no less dangerous for the Jewish community. Therefore we Jews must unite forces and combat any attempts that try to disrupt our way of life and our religion and our existence as a free distinct people that practices its faith freely without any intimidations or harassments.

I think that we gave the world many ground breaking contributions and all we ask in return is to be left alone to mind our own affairs in peace and in dignity.

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
Posts: 5568
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:16 pm

Saul, you have the choice in a free society to ignore
what you find offensive. As you said, no one is threatening
your religious convictions with a sword only with talk.
You can ignore talk, you can close the door on anyone
coming to your home with unwanted preaching and
you can throw out leaflets into a bin. Anyone convinced of
his religion will not be threatened by the above and least
of all you.

Just as you will not be deprived of your religious beliefs,
neither will those who believe in the Christian dogma. If less was
said about religion, we may even find that ever elusive thing
called peace.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:02 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Saul, you have the choice in a free society to ignore
what you find offensive. As you said, no one is threatening
your religious convictions with a sword only with talk.
You can ignore talk, you can close the door on anyone
coming to your home with unwanted preaching and
you can throw out leaflets into a bin. Anyone convinced of
his religion will not be threatened by the above and least
of all you.

Just as you will not be deprived of your religious beliefs,
neither will those who believe in the Christian dogma. If less was
said about religion, we may even find that ever elusive thing
called peace.
Agnes, I'm talking about those who don't know, that was the point.

Cosima__J

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cosima__J » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:14 pm

Saul, in your previous posts you were complaining about the writings of John and Paul in the New Testament. So I was responding to that complaint of yours and asking you specifically what writings of John and Paul you found objectionable. So can we get back to that?

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:33 pm

People are dying from war, famine, and disease, and these punks have nothing better to do but squabble.

The Old Testament/Torah narrative offers no account for the emergence/creation of other races (Black Africans, Asians). A literal following of the narrative is fundamentally racist, with the sole purpose of assisting the survival of a specific group. Christianity turned the familial/tribal (genetically inclusive) basis of this narrative into one based on faith (memetically inclusive, so to speak).

What's interesting is that the chabad.org article on evolution acknowledges the validity of microevolution as opposed macroevolutionary speciation, yet somehow Blacks and Asians are somehow supposed to have also been descendants of Adam and Eve (so often portrayed in European art with Roman noses)? Yes these are races, not species, but if significantly different nose shapes, eye shapes, and skin colors, could have mutated from Adam and Eve, why not the loss of body hair, change in body posture, and increase in brain mass from proto-humans to homo-sapiens over a longer period of time?
Image

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:52 pm

Cosima,

In John 8:44 (King James Version) reffering to the Jews Jesus says to them:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This is in John. Whether he said it, or Jesus said it or some early Christian anti semitic student of John or who ever said it makes little difference.

The Christian opens up this book called John and sees that the Jews are called 'devils'.

It posions his mind and soul and generates dangerous sadistic hatred in his heart and mind.

And Paul goes even further in his shocking accusations, for John said that the Jews are devils, but everyone knows that the devil is a creature created by God. The devil cant kill god for he is only a creature of God, and doesnt have any power over him. But Paul said that the Jews are worse then devils because they killed 'the lord jesus' that means for the Christians that they killed the god of the universe, surely a worse accusation then John's.


In I Thessalonians 2:14-16, Paul writes:

. . . even as they have of the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always; for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost!

The pattern of hate that has for so long gripped the imagination of the true believer cannot be attributed to coincidence or to a remarkable quirk of history. The accounts in the New Testament -- the most cherished book of the devout Christian -- already display the animus of the early church toward the Jews in portraying them as the people of the devil: cunning, traitorous, corrupt, deceitful, and conspiring. In essence, whatever it is that humanity abhors, that is precisely how the Jews are depicted in the Christian Bible. Without rest, post-canonical Christian literature continued to perpetuate this dark image of the Jew. There can be little doubt as to why Christians believe of the Jews what common sense would forbid them to believe of anyone else.

Why then I ask today the Christians do not edit their writings to remove all the anti Semitic writings that were responsible for so much suffering and so many murders all throughout the 2 millennia?
Last edited by SaulChanukah on Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:18 pm

Believers in Darwin like to cite the famous example of the peppered moth. Individuals of this British species are either black or white. The white form used to predominate until the industrial revolution when the black variant gained a selective advantage and became far more common. This was because the soot in the atmosphere from the burning of coal darkened the tree trunks where the moths would rest, rendering the white moths easy prey while the black moths remained well camouflaged. Once industrial processes became more efficient and the trees became lighter in color, the white variety returned to dominance while the frequency of the black variety declined.1
To more easily demonstrate the fallacy of chabad.org's selective basis of microevolution, replace "moth" with "people".
Image

Brendan

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Brendan » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:11 am

John chapter 8 refers to the Pharisees who were questioning and condemning him. The language gets shortened to "the Jews" at 8:22, but it is clear from the context of the whole chapter that these Jews are the Pharisees Jesus was in constant conflict with. All of his disciples including John himself were, of course, Jews, such as Simon the Zealot.

Paul was a Jew (named Saul, curiously enough) whose specific mission was to preach Christ to the Genitles. When Paul speaks of Jews persecuting Christians in 1 Thes 2 he is speaking from personal experience, as he was one such persecuter himself before Chirst spoke to him on the road to Damascus.

But why expect someone to do a bit of reading and thinking concerning such a topic when their ignorant fundamenatlism provides a permanent victim mentality so warmly received today?

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:53 am

Brendan wrote:John chapter 8 refers to the Pharisees who were questioning and condemning him. The language gets shortened to "the Jews" at 8:22, but it is clear from the context of the whole chapter that these Jews are the Pharisees Jesus was in constant conflict with. All of his disciples including John himself were, of course, Jews, such as Simon the Zealot.

Paul was a Jew (named Saul, curiously enough) whose specific mission was to preach Christ to the Genitles. When Paul speaks of Jews persecuting Christians in 1 Thes 2 he is speaking from personal experience, as he was one such persecuter himself before Chirst spoke to him on the road to Damascus.

But why expect someone to do a bit of reading and thinking concerning such a topic when their ignorant fundamenatlism provides a permanent victim mentality so warmly received today?

Of course the Jews were against them because they tried to destroy the authority of the Torah and its Sages. The Torah gives power to the Sages of Israel and we Jews are commanded by God to listen to our Religious Leaders. When our religious leaders rule through the power of Jewish Law that someone is a false prophet, then he is a false prophet. The Christians such as John and Paul and Jesus and others rebelled against the authority and the leadership of the Jewish people. This was an act of blatant heresy and denial of the Torah.
The Torah says clearly in Hebrew if you read “Hukat Olam Le’dorotechem” the Torah is never changeable, it is a law for eternity. This means that even a million Jesuses wont be able to change one single dot in any of its letters. The Torah also says : ‘Brit Olam Le’dorotechem’ - An ever lasting covenant between the God of Israel and the Jewish people. Everlasting means that even if the Jews will not always be 100 percent, God will still never leave them because he swore with his own name and said on mount Sinai when he gave them the Torah :” Brit Olam Le’dorotechem’, an everlasting covenant with the Jewish people. In Judaism one of the main purposes of the Messiah is to strengthen Jewish observance and Torah. We don't need a new religion , or any new set of laws or new theology. We have an Ever lasting covenant and an everlasting law. Jesus and his followers had a different idea of what the messiah is all about and what were his duties. These ideas were foreign and pagan and unrelated to Judaism and its destiny and purpose. That is why Jesus was rejected by more then 99 percent of the Jewish people, because he simply didn’t have the credentials to be the Messiah that God had in mind for the Jewish people. The Torah and the Tanach, Talmud, Kabbalah, and the Rambam all clearly say what the Messiah should be and what will his duties be. Jesus didn’t fit any of the requirements not even a single requirement. So there is absolutely no surprise why the vast majority of the Jewish people rejected him, and all other false prophets who didn’t fit the conditions and requirements as were set in the Torah.

So what ever the Jews did was 100 percent correct and right.

Who cares if John and Paul were Jews, as far as we are concerned, they are your leaders not ours, therefore they were responsible for poisoning the minds of their followers against the Jewish people.

This was an evil act of propaganda and demonization done by the founders of your faith not ours, so the blame and guilt belong to the Christians and its founders.
Last edited by SaulChanukah on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by living_stradivarius » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:19 am

Brendan, remember what you said to Agnes regarding whose turf is whose? It might be good to heed your own advice before this thread explodes like another bag of peanuts.
Image

Cosima__J

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cosima__J » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:02 am

Saul, I'll send you a PM soon (so as to avoid any exploding bags of peanuts :wink: )

Brendan

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Brendan » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:26 am

A million Jesuses? How silly. :lol:

There is only one God, Incarnate as Jesus Christ our Lord, at least to Christians. God Himself trumps any Torah.

Under the Old Covenant, in times when the prophetic word was silent, there was the temptation to arrange God’s commands as a Torah, making a kind of system and “law” out of them, although the best Israelites were always aware that there was something presumptuous about this. Faced with Jesus Christ, however, it would be utterly fantastic to attempt such a thing. Separating his deeds and words from his spontaneous and sovereign person would be in flagrant contradiction with these same deeds and words: they are “spirit and life”, written not on stone or parchment but in “fleshy tables of the heart” (2 Cor 3:3). If there is to be a Holy Writ to bear witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, it must continually point away from the letter and the system and toward what is embodied, by God’s spirit, in Jesus Christ.
von Balthasar, Hans Urs – Truth is Symphonic [Ignatius Press 1972, trans. Harrison, Graham1987, p 30]

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:36 am

Brendan wrote:A million Jesuses? How silly. :lol:

There is only one God, Incarnate as Jesus Christ our Lord, at least to Christians. God Himself trumps any Torah.

Under the Old Covenant, in times when the prophetic word was silent, there was the temptation to arrange God’s commands as a Torah, making a kind of system and “law” out of them, although the best Israelites were always aware that there was something presumptuous about this. Faced with Jesus Christ, however, it would be utterly fantastic to attempt such a thing. Separating his deeds and words from his spontaneous and sovereign person would be in flagrant contradiction with these same deeds and words: they are “spirit and life”, written not on stone or parchment but in “fleshy tables of the heart” (2 Cor 3:3). If there is to be a Holy Writ to bear witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, it must continually point away from the letter and the system and toward what is embodied, by God’s spirit, in Jesus Christ.
von Balthasar, Hans Urs – Truth is Symphonic [Ignatius Press 1972, trans. Harrison, Graham1987, p 30]
Yes there is only one, but you say he is three. You cant have it both ways, its either one or three.

The father and son and the holy spirit , the trinity is a classic paganization of the Abrahamic Monotheism.

The Torah is God's wisdom , he will never trump any Torah, especially when he calls it 'An Everlasting Covenant' and 'An Everlasting Law'. The Torah is the blueprint that God created in order to create the universe. All our histories past, present and future are written there. The histories of every single human being in this world are written there in detail, even yours Brendan. You just need to know how to read it. All of the letters of the Torah are names of God, combinations of God's names, surely he would not erase his great and holy name which he swore upon from his book which is his wisdom. So your assumptions are completely wrong.

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Agnes Selby » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:39 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Brendan wrote:A million Jesuses? How silly. :lol:

There is only one God, Incarnate as Jesus Christ our Lord, at least to Christians. God Himself trumps any Torah.

Under the Old Covenant, in times when the prophetic word was silent, there was the temptation to arrange God’s commands as a Torah, making a kind of system and “law” out of them, although the best Israelites were always aware that there was something presumptuous about this. Faced with Jesus Christ, however, it would be utterly fantastic to attempt such a thing. Separating his deeds and words from his spontaneous and sovereign person would be in flagrant contradiction with these same deeds and words: they are “spirit and life”, written not on stone or parchment but in “fleshy tables of the heart” (2 Cor 3:3). If there is to be a Holy Writ to bear witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, it must continually point away from the letter and the system and toward what is embodied, by God’s spirit, in Jesus Christ.
von Balthasar, Hans Urs – Truth is Symphonic [Ignatius Press 1972, trans. Harrison, Graham1987, p 30]
Yes there is only one, but you say he is three. You cant have it both ways, its either one or three.

The father and son and the holy spirit , the trinity is a classic paganization of the Abrahamic Monotheism.

The Torah is God's wisdom , he will never trump any Torah, especially when he calls it 'An Everlasting Covenant' and 'An Everlasting Law'. The Torah is the blueprint that God created in order to create the universe. All our histories past, present and future are written there. The histories of every single human being in this world are written there in detail, even yours Brendan. You just need to know how to read it. All of the letters of the Torah are names of God, combinations of God's names, surely he would not erase his great and holy name which he swore upon from his book which is his wisdom. So your assumptions are completely wrong.
Saul, you said that "the histories of every single human being in this world are
written there in detail". Does that include the millions who died in
Auschwitz and other concentration camps during World War II, just
to mention one war. Did God decide which child or which woman or
particularly which old man should be gassed and burned in the ovens of
Auschwitz? Or were these non humans not registered in the Torah?

Please respond to the above question in detail without trying to avoid
the obvious facts.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:46 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Brendan wrote:A million Jesuses? How silly. :lol:

There is only one God, Incarnate as Jesus Christ our Lord, at least to Christians. God Himself trumps any Torah.

Under the Old Covenant, in times when the prophetic word was silent, there was the temptation to arrange God’s commands as a Torah, making a kind of system and “law” out of them, although the best Israelites were always aware that there was something presumptuous about this. Faced with Jesus Christ, however, it would be utterly fantastic to attempt such a thing. Separating his deeds and words from his spontaneous and sovereign person would be in flagrant contradiction with these same deeds and words: they are “spirit and life”, written not on stone or parchment but in “fleshy tables of the heart” (2 Cor 3:3). If there is to be a Holy Writ to bear witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, it must continually point away from the letter and the system and toward what is embodied, by God’s spirit, in Jesus Christ.
von Balthasar, Hans Urs – Truth is Symphonic [Ignatius Press 1972, trans. Harrison, Graham1987, p 30]
Yes there is only one, but you say he is three. You cant have it both ways, its either one or three.

The father and son and the holy spirit , the trinity is a classic paganization of the Abrahamic Monotheism.

The Torah is God's wisdom , he will never trump any Torah, especially when he calls it 'An Everlasting Covenant' and 'An Everlasting Law'. The Torah is the blueprint that God created in order to create the universe. All our histories past, present and future are written there. The histories of every single human being in this world are written there in detail, even yours Brendan. You just need to know how to read it. All of the letters of the Torah are names of God, combinations of God's names, surely he would not erase his great and holy name which he swore upon from his book which is his wisdom. So your assumptions are completely wrong.
Saul, you said that "the histories of every single human being in this world are
written there in detail". Does that include the millions who died in
Auschwitz and other concentration camps during World War II, just
to mention one war. Did God decide which child or which woman or
particularly which old man should be gassed and burned in the ovens of
Auschwitz? Or were these non humans not registered in the Torah?

Please respond to the above question in detail without trying to avoid
the obvious facts.
Yes, God knows everything in advance and everything can be found in the Torah.

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
Posts: 5568
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:27 am
Location: Australia

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Agnes Selby » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:27 pm

Saul, you well know that this is not an answer to my question.
I am afraid you do not have the answers and neither
does the Torah. If God is supposed to be merciful, the tragedies of the past
and of the present would not exist. Or is God just playing with
his playthings - us - for his own amusement?

If the Torah has the list of all the innocent children who died in the
ovens of Auschwitz, it would be a good idea for your Rabbis
to reveal any such future names instead of flying all over Israel
in order to prevent the swine flu.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:57 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Saul, you well know that this is not an answer to my question.
I am afraid you do not have the answers and neither
does the Torah. If God is supposed to be merciful, the tragedies of the past
and of the present would not exist. Or is God just playing with
his playthings - us - for his own amusement?

If the Torah has the list of all the innocent children who died in the
ovens of Auschwitz, it would be a good idea for your Rabbis
to reveal any such future names instead of flying all over Israel
in order to prevent the swine flu.
I have already answered this question for you years ago but you forgot, but here I am willing to give you an answer once again, so please listen up and let everyone here see that I am in fact giving you an answer.

Are you merciful to your children Agnes?

Have you ever smacked them across their faces if they behaved horribly to teach them a lesson?
Have you ever raised your voice on them?
Have you ever rebuked them?

Yes you most probably did that precisely because you are merciful and want good for your children.

The God of Israel had made an everlasting covenant with the Jewish people. This Covenant had certain understandings and commitments between God and his people. We took upon ourselves to do certain things and he took upon himself to do certain things for us. This covenant included a blessing and a curse. A blessing if we will be faithful to God and a curse if we will not be faithful.
This relationship between God and the Jewish nation had consequences and agreements.

The God of Israel had written these following verses in the Torah. In a very clear manner it details the great blessings if we'll be faithful to the covenant and the horrible curses if we'll not. This agreement is mentioned in a number of places in the Torah, but here is for you the section from Deuteronomy chapter 30 Please Pay Close Attention every word is important:


1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither HaShem thy God hath driven thee,

2 and shalt return unto HaShem thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;

3 that then HaShem thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither HaShem thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will HaShem thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.

5 And HaShem thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And HaShem thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love HaShem thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7 And HaShem thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.

8 And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of HaShem, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day.

9 And HaShem thy God will make thee over-abundant in all the work of thy hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good; for HaShem will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers;

10 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of HaShem thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto HaShem thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,

16 in that I command thee this day to love HaShem thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and HaShem thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;

20 to love HaShem thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which HaShem swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


While other religions concentrate on rewarding their followers only in Heaven, the God of Israel swears by his great name that the consequences of Jewish behavior will be viewed by everyone in this world. And since these promises will take place in our world, you can rest assured that he will do what ever he promised in heaven or hell too, depending on ones actions of course.

Where did these blessings which were mentioned in the Torah materialize?

In the time of King Solomon , when he Jewish people were following the commandments of God faithfully he bestowed upon the Jewish people these very great blessings. King Solomon ruled the entire world, his Kingdom was the most powerful and the Jews in his time had both spiritual and physical riches like no other time as a nation.

But later on the Jews have sinned and were not faithful to the Covenant as they should have been, therefore the God of Israel had brought upon Jerusalem the dictator of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, and he destroyed the Temple and murdered many thousands and the rest he took into exile where they stayed for 70 years, oppressed and persecuted.

After these 70 years the Jewish people repented and returned to God. Therefore God had returned them from all their exiles and a Second Temple was built , it lasted for 420 years.

Then the Jews again were not faithful to the covenant, and the God of Israel had brought Rome and destroyed the Second Temple and scattered his children to the exile that we are still in.

In this 2000 years the Jews had suffered many times because our forefathers have sinned and because we have sinned too. The Talmud says that every generation that the Temple doesn’t get built, its as if, the Temple was destroyed in that very generation.

The destruction of the Kingdom of Israel by the Romans was extremely vast and brutal and many millions of Jewish men women and Children were murdered. Going into a convent with the God of the Universe is no simple thing , it is a very serious thing. He the God of the universe can do such amazingly beautiful things for his people as he has done, so many blessings and so many great things he can do if only you are faithful to him. But if you are not, he can do things that can devastate and destroy, because he controls the entire existence and the entire universe and everything is within his power.

The situation in Europe was horrible and terrible. With the rise of the Reform movement, the Jews didn’t want to observe the Torah as it aught to be observed, and Judaism was in a real great danger of destruction, for if Jews will not keep the Torah, not only the Jews will die, but God will destroy his universe if people will not study his torah and wont recognize him as The Master of All Things. He didn’t have in mind to create this world and leave it and let its creatures rule themselves as they wished. He created this world so people will study his wisdom and know him.

Since this was the case, the God of Israel punished his Children for not been faithful to him, just like he did before.

Whether we get the blessings or the curses is entirely in our hands, if we will listen and follow his commandments we will have all the good in the world, if not then terrible things will happen.

This was the covenant, and this is the responsibility of been God's Chosen, his children. We must be faithful to the agreements, if we will not then he will punish us ,he warned us in advance that that's what he will do if we'll not be faithful.

The problem is that some people only want to get the good side of the Agreements. The blessings even if they don’t listen to God.

The God of Israel said to listen to him and he will give us all the good, all we have to do is listen to our father because he wants the best for us.

So you must understand that we are dealing with God here, not some human that changes his mind from one second to the next. As I said this covenant is extremely serious and we must be faithful to it if we want to get all the good and stay away from trouble.

Without this covenant, there would not be any more Jews in the world today. If we wouldn’t have been afraid to leave God, then we would have left him long time ago. The Covenant binds us to him and reminds us that we must stay Jews or else. God says that he is a merciful God who forgives sin and has great benevolence, but he is also a jealous God, who punishes those who hate him and those who don’t keep his laws.

Your father Agnes, can be very nice , giving, watchful, and generous, but if you don’t behave like a good daughter and you rebel against him, and you don’t respect him and there is a danger that you will be lost in your mistakes and in your bad behavior, then your nice and good Father can use a strong hand, and even when it hurts it means for your good, to put you on the right path and make you understand that you are his daughter and he is your father.

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
Posts: 5568
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Location: Australia

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:45 am

Well, let me tell you Saul, my father never raised his hands
to me and neither did I to my children.

So God punished "His" children by letting them burn in the
ovens of Auschwitz. Please believe whatever you want to
believe, Saul, you have truly been brainwashed.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:19 am

Agnes Selby wrote:Well, let me tell you Saul, my father never raised his hands
to me and neither did I to my children.

So God punished "His" children by letting them burn in the
ovens of Auschwitz. Please believe whatever you want to
believe, Saul, you have truly been brainwashed.

Well that was the covenant, and that's our religion.
Our existence is tied to the adherence of the Torah.

This was the history of the Jewish people and that's what took place every single time. We were faithful then we got rewarded , we were not and we got punished.
All of this took place.

You on the other hand refuse to acknowledge facts and reality, that's your choice not mine, and the only brainwashed person here is you and not me.

Open your eyes and see and read and know what took place all throughout the ages.

Do you think that the Romans were less brutal then the Nazis?

You are mistaken. Millions have been brutally murdered back then because as I said that entering into an ever lasting covenant with the creator of life is extremely serious.
I can see that you just cant understand the gravity of the event and the significance of the situation, and that all stems from the refusal to see the nature of the relationship between God and his people. I don't only believe in this relationship, I know it for fact.

If you ever read Jewish history, the same motif repeats itself time and again.

Adherence to the Torah means greatness for the Jewish people.

Disobedience means devastation. That was the agreement and the covenant.

You’re refusal to accept what is so clear is simply been blind to reality.

Too bad that you are continuing to live your life this way been completely ignorant of your faith, religion and history.

Agnes, you just simply don't know your people and your God and your history.

And when someone tries to explain tom you, you respond by name calling when the truth is that you are the one who knows nothing about these topics and I am in the position to call you 'brainwashed' and not the other way around.

I strongly suggest to study Jewish history, such an important subject for you to know. It will help you understand what Judaism, and the nature of the relationship between God and his people were all about. But nothing in the world will change your mind and educate you if you will never attempt to really want to know and be willing to accept the truth no matter how unpleasant it might sound to you.

Agnes, will you ever consider accepting the truth?

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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by living_stradivarius » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:29 am

Saul wrote:This was the history of the Jewish people and that's what took place every single time. We were faithful then we got rewarded , we were not and we got punished.
You have a faith-o-meter?

What a terrible assessment of the Holocaust.
Image

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:55 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
Saul wrote:This was the history of the Jewish people and that's what took place every single time. We were faithful then we got rewarded , we were not and we got punished.
You have a faith-o-meter?

What a terrible assessment of the Holocaust.
Its not an assessment.

The Holocaust was written in the Torah already here it is:

Deuteronomy Chapter 28 - Read every word carefully. God warns the Jewish people in advance thousands of years before what will happen to them if they will be true to the covenant and what will happen to them if they will not, the God of the universe speaks:


1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of HaShem thy God, to observe to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that HaShem thy God will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth.

2 And all these blessings shall come upon thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of HaShem thy God.

3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the young of thy flock.

5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy kneading-trough.

6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

7 HaShem will cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thee; they shall come out against thee one way, and shall flee before thee seven ways.

8 HaShem will command the blessing with thee in thy barns, and in all that thou puttest thy hand unto; and He will bless thee in the land which HaShem thy God giveth thee.

9 HaShem will establish thee for a holy people unto Himself, as He hath sworn unto thee; if thou shalt keep the commandments of HaShem thy God, and walk in His ways.

10 And all the peoples of the earth shall see that the name of HaShem is called upon thee; and they shall be afraid of thee.

11 And HaShem will make thee over-abundant for good, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, in the land which HaShem swore unto thy fathers to give thee.

12 HaShem will open unto thee His good treasure the heaven to give the rain of thy land in its season, and to bless all the work of thy hand; and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow.

13 And HaShem will make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if thou shalt hearken unto the commandments of HaShem thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them;

14 and shalt not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of HaShem thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee.

16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy kneading-trough.

18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the young of thy flock.

19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

20 HaShem will send upon thee cursing, discomfiture, and rebuke, in all that thou puttest thy hand unto to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the evil of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken Me.

21 HaShem will make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until He have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest in to possess it.

22 HaShem will smite thee with consumption, and with fever, and with inflammation, and with fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

24 HaShem will make the rain of thy land powder and dust; from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

25 HaShem will cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies; thou shalt go out one way against them, and shalt flee seven ways before them; and thou shalt be a horror unto all the kingdoms of the earth.

26 And thy carcasses shall be food unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and there shall be none to frighten them away.

27 HaShem will smite thee with the boil of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.

28 HaShem will smite thee with madness, and with blindness, and with astonishment of heart.

29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not make thy ways prosperous; and thou shalt be only oppressed and robbed alway, and there shall be none to save thee.

30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; thou shalt build a house, and thou shalt not dwell therein; thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not use the fruit thereof.

31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof; thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee; thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies; and thou shalt have none to save thee.

32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day; and there shall be nought in the power of thy hand.

33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed away:

34 so that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

35 HaShem will smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore boil, whereof thou canst not be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the crown of thy head.

36 HaShem will bring thee, and thy king whom thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation that thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples whither HaShem shall lead thee away.

38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather little in; for the locust shall consume it.

39 Thou shalt plant vineyards and dress them, but thou shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worm shall eat them.

40 Thou shalt have olive-trees throughout all thy borders, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olives shall drop off.

41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be thine; for they shall go into captivity.

42 All thy trees and the fruit of thy land shall the locust possess.

43 The stranger that is in the midst of thee shall mount up above thee higher and higher; and thou shalt come down lower and lower.

44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him; he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

45 And all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou didst not hearken unto the voice of HaShem thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded thee.

46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever;

47 because thou didst not serve HaShem thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things;

48 therefore shalt thou serve thine enemy whom HaShem shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things; and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49 HaShem will bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as the vulture swoopeth down; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

50 a nation of fierce countenance, that shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favour to the young.

51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy ground, until thou be destroyed; that also shall not leave thee corn, wine, or oil, the increase of thy kine, or the young of thy flock, until he have caused thee to perish.

52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fortified walls come down, wherein thou didst trust, throughout all thy land; and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which HaShem thy God hath given thee.

53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters whom HaShem thy God hath given thee; in the siege and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall straiten thee.

54 The man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil against his brother, and against the wife of his bosom, and against the remnant of his children whom he hath remaining;

55 so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat, because he hath nothing left him; in the siege and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall straiten thee in all thy gates.

56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil against the husband of her bosom, and against her son, and against her daughter;

57 and against her afterbirth that cometh out from between her feet, and against her children whom she shall bear; for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly; in the siege and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall straiten thee in thy gates.

58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and awful Name, HaShem thy God;

59 then HaShem will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

60 And He will bring back upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast in dread of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will HaShem bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou didst not hearken unto the voice of HaShem thy God.

63 And it shall come to pass, that as HaShem rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so HaShem will rejoice over you to cause you to perish, and to destroy you; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

64 And HaShem shall scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou have no repose, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot; but HaShem shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and languishing of soul.

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear night and day, and shalt have no assurance of thy life.

67 In the morning thou shalt say: 'Would it were even!' and at even thou shalt say: 'Would it were morning!' for the fear of thy heart which thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

68 And HaShem shall bring thee back into Egypt in ships, by the way whereof I said unto thee: 'Thou shalt see it no more again'; and there ye shall sell yourselves unto your enemies for bondmen and for bondwoman, and no man shall buy you.

69 These are the words of the covenant which HaShem commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

Brendan

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Brendan » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:44 am

The Deuteronomistic History particularly pertains to the exile, not the Holocaust, as Saul should well be aware of.

Many consider Deuteronomy to be the book (or the source material for the book we know) found by Hilkiah during the reign of Josiah the Messiah (who lost the battle of Armageddon):

II Kings 22:8: And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD.

"Isreal" did not even know of "The Law" until the reign of Josiah (when the priests conveniently found the these texts) who, as I say, lost the battle of Armageddon and which led to the Exile and curses' fulfullment.

And really read Deuteronomy word for word as Saul suggests, and compare it to the theology of Jesus and weird ideas such as blessed are the meek etc.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:36 am

Brendan wrote:The Deuteronomistic History particularly pertains to the exile, not the Holocaust, as Saul should well be aware of.

Many consider Deuteronomy to be the book (or the source material for the book we know) found by Hilkiah during the reign of Josiah the Messiah (who lost the battle of Armageddon):

II Kings 22:8: And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD.

"Isreal" did not even know of "The Law" until the reign of Josiah (when the priests conveniently found the these texts) who, as I say, lost the battle of Armageddon and which led to the Exile and curses' fulfullment.

And really read Deuteronomy word for word as Saul suggests, and compare it to the theology of Jesus and weird ideas such as blessed are the meek etc.


You're wrong.

It is heresy to even suggest that the Last book of the five books of Moses were not part of the Torah or written by any man. The Torah is composed of five books, Deuteronomy is one of these books. What your suggesting is completely unfounded.

This section in the Torah not only talks about the Holocaust but even at the tragedies that took place while the Jews were in Israel before they were sent into exile. This following prophesy in Deuteronomy 28 :“ 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters whom HaShem thy God hath given thee; in the siege and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall straiten thee” took place in Israel at the time of the destruction of the Second Temple before the Jews were sent away in Exile.

These are clearly the blessings and curses mentioned in the Covenant between God and Israel. Also you must understand that God didn’t strike down right away but waited many years for the Jews to return to him, only when all other alternatives were used such as sending the Prophets of Israel with warnings from God to the Jews to return to them and after they have refused, then the God of Israel enforced the Covenant.

Cosima__J

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cosima__J » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:07 pm

So Saul, are you actually saying that European Jewry was "unfaithful" to God and therefore God punished them with the Nazi Holocaust? I certainly hope that's not what you are saying. That would mean that the Jews were to blame for the suffering inflicted on them by the Nazis, not Hitler and the S.S. gang! Yikes!!!!!

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:22 pm

Cosima__J wrote:So Saul, are you actually saying that European Jewry was "unfaithful" to God and therefore God punished them with the Nazi Holocaust? I certainly hope that's not what you are saying. That would mean that the Jews were to blame for the suffering inflicted on them by the Nazis, not Hitler and the S.S. gang! Yikes!!!!!

The Germans were to blame in these brutal murders because they chose out of their own free will to become murderers.
The Jews had to be punished, and the Germans decided to be the carriers of this punishment out of their own free will and choice, no one forced them. When the Messiah will come there will be a great retribution and a great punishment on all those who dared touch the Children of God, his Chosen nation. The prophets are very clear about that.
The God of Israel doesn’t punish his children for no reason. The First and second Temples were destroyed and Millions were killed because there was a reason for that. Same goes with the Holocaust and all other tragedies, God is righteous and he doesn’t bring about a twisted judgment, all his ways are true.

Donald Isler
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Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Donald Isler » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:26 pm

Yes, Cosima, that is essentially what he is saying, regardless of the fact that at least one of the people he is addressing is herself a Holocaust survivor, and that she and other people here remember those times, and actual victims, who were their family members.

In fact, this is not what most Jews believe, and not even what all Orthodox Jews believe.

Hitler, unlike Saul, did not discriminate amongst the Jews. To him a Jew was a Jew, and thus genetically inferior, and worthy of death. It mattered not in the least if one was religious or not. Which makes what Saul writes quite illogical. Even if one believed Orthodox Jews were more virtuous than other Jews (which they are clearly not, having amongst their members, criminals, sex offenders and others of poor character, even among their rabbis, just like all other people) it did not happen that religious Jews were preserved in the Shoah, and other Jews made to suffer. They all suffered the same fate. (In case non-Jews do not get why we still make such a big deal of the Holocaust, it is because one third of our tiny people was wiped out within those six years.) Oh, and one should also note that many Nazi criminals lived long happy lives after the war, were unpunished, and unlike many Jews who lost everything, existed comfortably on their pensions. THIS is how God taught justice? I guess so, if one is to follow Saul's line of reasoning.

There is a quote from Rabbi Norman Lamm, former head of Yeshiva University, a major Orthodox institution in New York which I heard once, and have been trying to find. It was something like "He who tries to explain the Holocaust commits blasphemy AND stupidity." In other words, it is beyond our ability to understand it.

In any case, I wish everyone a good Shabbos.
Donald Isler

Cosima__J

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by Cosima__J » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:36 pm

Saul, you are one crazy mixed up dude.

You say "the Jews had to be punished" and that God " doesn't punish his children for no reason." And yet, although the Nazis must therefore be the instrument of God's punishment of those wayward Jews, when the Messiah comes "there will be a great retribution and punishment on all those who dared touch the Children of God, his chosen nation." I don't understand why the Nazis must be punished if they were just doing punishment that God wanted.

My friend, I think that's just crazy thinking! I can not believe that God WANTED the Holocaust to happen in order to punish Jews. That's just sick!

What about Jews today???? Are they living the way God wants them to live??? Or are they due for some more punishment?

Good gracious Almighty! That's just freakin' sick.

SaulChanukah

Re: US Jews protest Catholic salvation text

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:04 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Yes, Cosima, that is essentially what he is saying, regardless of the fact that at least one of the people he is addressing is herself a Holocaust survivor, and that she and other people here remember those times, and actual victims, who were their family members.

In fact, this is not what most Jews believe, and not even what all Orthodox Jews believe.

Hitler, unlike Saul, did not discriminate amongst the Jews. To him a Jew was a Jew, and thus genetically inferior, and worthy of death. It mattered not in the least if one was religious or not. Which makes what Saul writes quite illogical. Even if one believed Orthodox Jews were more virtuous than other Jews (which they are clearly not, having amongst their members, criminals, sex offenders and others of poor character, even among their rabbis, just like all other people) it did not happen that religious Jews were preserved in the Shoah, and other Jews made to suffer. They all suffered the same fate. (In case non-Jews do not get why we still make such a big deal of the Holocaust, it is because one third of our tiny people was wiped out within those six years.) Oh, and one should also note that many Nazi criminals lived long happy lives after the war, were unpunished, and unlike many Jews who lost everything, existed comfortably on their pensions. THIS is how God taught justice? I guess so, if one is to follow Saul's line of reasoning.

There is a quote from Rabbi Norman Lamm, former head of Yeshiva University, a major Orthodox institution in New York which I heard once, and have been trying to find. It was something like "He who tries to explain the Holocaust commits blasphemy AND stupidity." In other words, it is beyond our ability to understand it.

In any case, I wish everyone a good Shabbos.
Well there is concept in Judaism that says : Once the permission is given to the devil to carry out his doings, the devil doesn’t differentiate between the good and the evil, he kills them all.

Another Biblical secret is that authority and permission is given to the devil and his forces to rule this world.

More then 99% of people live their lives wrong and are completely on the wrong path, and its all the doings of the devil, because God had given him these great powers so people would have the freedom of Choice. The devil always tries to make people do mistakes, all the killings, thefts evolution theory, and all the heretic activities and all the different
"Isms" , democracy, communism, paganism, Jesus and Mohamed all the different ideologies and theologies that exist were created and inspired by the Devil, to cause people to err.

In the Bible the story of Job is a fascinating one. God knows for certain that Job is a righteous man, but the devil comes to God and asks him for permission to test Job's righoutness. God gives the devil the authority to go and kill and destroy everything that Job had, all his children and all his wealth in one single day. But Job still didn’t sin with "his lips" he said nothing to criticize God's actions, but in his heart he said :" An authority was given to the devil and he rules all", the sages explain that that was his sin, because he didn’t realize that above all, the God of the Universe rules all and has power over all things even over the devil, which is only one of his creatures. ( Job was the reincarnation of Abraham’s father Terach who was an idol worshiper, in the end of his days, Terach retuned to God but he was not able to atone for all his sins in such a short period of time, in order to fulfill the purification of Terach’s soul, God had brought his soul down in this world again to complete his purification which will enable him to enter Heaven clean from any dirt of transgression)

Even if we see that authority and permission was given to the devil to do all these brutal atrocities, still we must not forget that the real mover of all things is God himself, we must not forget that.

We must also understand that our thoughts are limited and our abilities to understand the Creator are limited as well. We cant always understand why he does certain things. Things that sometimes look horrible in our eyes and seem to us that God had left us and does not care for us, we must remember that he moves and controls all things and to acknowledge that we are not capable to understand all of his ways.

But the lack of understanding shouldn’t be interpreted to mean that God doesn’t exist God forbid. He exists and controls anything and everything, and we must believe in that.

Remember that there were times that God had bestowed on us great wonders and great miracles, he raised us above all and gave us both spiritual and physical riches that no nation had ever known, and we had a very close relationship with him.

To forget all of this just because he punished us because of our own doing and claim that he doesn’t exist is to be blind to reality and purposely using deception to justify our own lack of understanding.

In the Torah God said :” My ways are not like your ways and my Thoughts are not like your thoughts”.

We must accept that we wont always understand his ways and we can't judge the limitless God of the universe with our limited minds and thoughts.
Last edited by SaulChanukah on Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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