THE OBVIOUS QUESTION ABOUT XMAS IN THIS COUNTRY:

dulcinea · Post by **dulcinea** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:50 pm

HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.

SaulChanukah · Post by **SaulChanukah** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:52 pm

dulcinea wrote:HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.

Good to know that there are some people with some sense in this world.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:03 pm

dulcinea wrote:HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.

What do you mean? He's "a right jolly old elf"!

dulcinea · Post by **dulcinea** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:13 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
dulcinea wrote:HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.
What do you mean? He's "a right jolly old elf"!

No, he is not. The real Saint Nicholas is a bishop renowned for his charity and miracles; he most certainly is not that critter that looks like a big Gouda cheese.

Agnes Selby · Post by **Agnes Selby** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:41 pm

Goodness me!!! Of course there is a Santa Claus.
Hasn't everyone see "Mirracle on 34st Street"?

Teresa B · Post by **Teresa B** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:14 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
dulcinea wrote:HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.
Good to know that there are some people with some sense in this world.

Saul, you mean to say you take Christmas seriously?

Teresa

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:23 pm

dulcinea wrote: No, he is not. The real Saint Nicholas is a bishop renowned for his charity and miracles; he most certainly is not that critter that looks like a big Gouda cheese.

Yeah, he's obese, he smokes, and he enslaves animals to do his bidding. He also treats people with growth disorders as underlings and is responsible for millions of children being sleep deprived. I still like him. Brendan, take note!

Agnes Selby · Post by **Agnes Selby** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:53 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
dulcinea wrote: No, he is not. The real Saint Nicholas is a bishop renowned for his charity and miracles; he most certainly is not that critter that looks like a big Gouda cheese.
Yeah, he's obese, he smokes, and he enslaves animals to do his bidding. He also treats people with growth disorders as underlings and is responsible for millions of children being sleep deprived. I still like him. Brendan, take note!

I like him too, John. When my grandson was 4 year old I took him to
the local shopping centre to meet Santa. Nicholas sat on Santa's knee
and recited all the toys he wanted for Xmas but then he asked Santa
the crucial question. "Where do you live, Santa?" Obviously
unprepared for such a question, the Santa said:
"Why, I live right here in Lindfield".

End of Santa's myth for Nicholas.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:57 pm

Santa is accecptabe as a symbol to the PC crowd over Jesus Christ every day of the week - and even then "St Nic" is suspect.

As a symbol of rampant consumerism gone nuts, who can beat him?

Agnes Selby · Post by **Agnes Selby** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:48 pm

Brendan wrote:Santa is accecptabe as a symbol to the PC crowd over Jesus Christ every day of the week - and even then "St Nic" is suspect.

As a symbol of rampant consumerism gone nuts, who can beat him?

I heard on the news last night that "rampant consumerism" has
never been equalled for Xmas presents before. This in Sydney
but my Canberra friends are also shopping...
Good for the economy in any case.

Teresa B · Post by **Teresa B** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:19 pm

Brendan wrote:Santa is accecptabe as a symbol to the PC crowd over Jesus Christ every day of the week - and even then "St Nic" is suspect.

As a symbol of rampant consumerism gone nuts, who can beat him?

Amazing...on this board we have to take everything, even poor ol' Santa Claus, and make a divisive issue out of it!

Teresa

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:06 pm

I didn't raise the issue, but Christian religious observance is increasingly controversial to the multi-culti PC crowd and has been for years - in Christendom.

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:34 pm

Brendan,

Visit the most politically conservative community in America and you'll see Santa and you would forty or fifty years ago. My religious Christian friends see no conflict in having their kids enjoy Santa and also go to church and parochial school. "PC" has no meaning to anyone who thinks rather than labels.

Teresa is soooo right.

dulcinea · Post by **dulcinea** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:50 pm

Ralph wrote:Brendan,

Visit the most politically conservative community in America and you'll see Santa and you would forty or fifty years ago. My religious Christian friends see no conflict in having their kids enjoy Santa and also go to church and parochial school. "PC" has no meaning to anyone who thinks rather than labels.

Teresa is soooo right.

The question remains: how did a holy bishop, who was a real living person, get distorted into an elf, a type of character that means nothing to my Latin America?

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:04 pm

dulcinea wrote: The question remains: how did a holy bishop, who was a real living person, get distorted into an elf, a type of character that means nothing to my Latin America?

Obviously it was the work of this guy:

dulcinea · Post by **dulcinea** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:22 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
dulcinea wrote: The question remains: how did a holy bishop, who was a real living person, get distorted into an elf, a type of character that means nothing to my Latin America?
Obviously it was the work of this guy:

That certainly sounds like Mr G: to ruin the spirit of Xmas by distorting the holiday of holidays into an inanity fit only for the most puerile of mentalities.
Living in this country for 29 yrs has made me very keen on the entire REASON FOR THE SEASON thing.

Madame · Post by **Madame** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:58 am

dulcinea wrote:HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.

Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.

Santa Claus has a variety of different names in different languages, but they all refer to the person of St. Nicholas who was born many centuries ago in the 4th century (born c 245 AD, and died c350 AD, various sources list various dates) in Lycia, Anatolia, a province on the southwest coast of Asia Minor (present day Turkey). He was born in Patara, a seaport, and traveled. St. Nicholas became a bishop of the church at Myra. Few documents exist which mention him, however legends of his generosity exist throughout most churches. Thousands of churches in the Middle Ages were dedicated to him.

St. Nicholas performed a number of miracles, all associated with gift giving. His feast day was December 6, so think of St. Nicholas on December 6th and December 25th.

This is the most famous legend of St. Nicholas:

A nobleman who lived with his three daughters had fallen on hard times. The daughters had no chance of marriage, since their father could not pay their dowries.

One night, St. Nicholas threw a sack of gold through a window of the nobleman's shabby castle, which was enough for one daughter's marriage. The next night, he tossed another sack of gold through the window for the second daughter.

But on the third night, the window was closed. So, St. Nicholas climbed onto the roof and dropped the sack down the chimney. The next morning, the daughters found the gold in the stockings they had hung to dry by the fireplace.

Hence leaving the stockings out for Santa Claus.

In 1823, Clement C. Moore wrote "A Visit from St. Nicholas', which showed Santa Claus driving a sleight drawn by "eight tiny reindeer" and in doing so he created an image we all have today.

Thomas Nast was the first artist to draw Santa Claus as a fat, jolly, white-whiskered old man. He was born September 27, 1840 in Landau, Baden, Germany and died December 7, 1902 in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He was an American cartoonist after arriving in the United States at the age of six. He was a political cartoonist who happened to create one of the most popular images of Santa Claus. He is also noted for popularizing the Democratic party's donkey.

Other names for Santa Claus:
Weihnachtsmann in Germany for "Christmas man"
Kris Kringle from the southern Germany Christkindle, meaning "Christ child." This mutated in some areas of the world into a name for Santa Claus.
Pere Noel in France
Papa Noel in many Spanish speaking countries
Sinter Claus (or Sinterklaas, Sinte Klaas) in the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam (now New York City)
Other variations of his name range from Sant Nikolaas to Sante Klaas

The custom of gift-giving has many roots. St. Nicholas was an anonymous benefactor. The Magi gave gifts to Jesus, and the Romans gave gifts during their holiday that coincided with this period. Various days are used:

December 6th - in memory of St. Nicholas

December 24th - Christmas Eve

December 25th - Christmas day, the birth of Jesus

January 1st - New Year's Day

January 6th - Christmas day for some churches, the Magi/three wise men

http://www.santaclaus.com/santa-claus-christmas-faq.php

Santa has some other Q&A's at the above site, such as:

What kind of snack does Santa like left out for him?

Santa loves cookies, of course, but he is always happy to try anything you think he might like -- pick your favorite kind of cookie or snack and Santa and the reindeer will be happy! The reindeer love carrots and lettuce best, of course!

What kind of milk should I leave out?

Occasionally kids ask if Santa is lactose intolerant so they know what kind of milk to leave out, and the answer is that "no," Santa likes all kinds of milk and has no intolerances, so any types are fine and greatly appreciated! The only type of milk Santa will probably not drink is buttermilk, although he will use it in cakes.

Mrs. Claus prefers me to drink cold fat free (aka skim) milk, because of the health benefits; however I like to drink all the kinds of milk listed except buttermilk.

Why is Rudolph's nose so bright?

His nose is so bright because he was touched by Christmas magic which made his nose so red and shiny.

So, now we know he isn't a lush

IN278S · Post by **IN278S** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:05 am

Christmas Should be More Commercial
by Leonard Peikoff

Christmas in America is an exuberant display of human ingenuity, capitalist productivity, and the enjoyment of life. Yet all of these are castigated as "materialistic"; the real meaning of the holiday, we are told, is assorted Nativity tales and altruist injunctions (e.g., love thy neighbor) that no one takes seriously.

In fact, Christmas as we celebrate it today is a 19th-century American invention. The freedom and prosperity of post-Civil War America created the happiest nation in history. The result was the desire to celebrate, to revel in the goods and pleasures of life on earth. Christmas (which was not a federal holiday until 1870) became the leading American outlet for this feeling.

Historically, people have always celebrated the winter solstice as the time when the days begin to lengthen, indicating the earth's return to life. Ancient Romans feasted and reveled during the festival of Saturnalia. Early Christians condemned these Roman celebrations -- they were waiting for the end of the world and had only scorn for earthly pleasures. By the fourth century, the pagans were worshipping the god of the sun on December 25, and the Christians came to a decision: if you can't stop 'em, join 'em. They claimed (contrary to known fact) that the date was Jesus' birthday, and usurped the solstice holiday for their Church.

Even after the Christians stole Christmas, they were ambivalent about it. The holiday was inherently a pro-life festival of earthly renewal, but the Christians preached renunciation, sacrifice, and concern for the next world, not this one. As Cotton Mather, an 18th-century clergyman, put it: "Can you in your consciences think that our Holy Savior is honored by mirth? . . . Shall it be said that at the birth of our Savior . . . we take time . . . to do actions that have much more of hell than of heaven in them?"

Then came the major developments of 19th-century capitalism: industrialization, urbanization, the triumph of science -- all of it leading to easy transportation, efficient mail delivery, the widespread publishing of books and magazines, new inventions making life comfortable and exciting, and the rise of entrepreneurs who understood that the way to make a profit was to produce something good and sell it to a mass market.

For the first time, the giving of gifts became a major feature of Christmas. Early Christians denounced gift-giving as a Roman practice, and Puritans called it diabolical. But Americans were not to be deterred. Thanks to capitalism, there was enough wealth to make gifts possible, a great productive apparatus to advertise them and make them available cheaply, and a country so content that men wanted to reach out to their friends and express their enjoyment of life. The whole country took with glee to giving gifts on an unprecedented scale.

Santa Claus is a thoroughly American invention. There was a St. Nicholas long ago and a feeble holiday connected with him (on December 5). In 1822, an American named Clement Clarke Moore wrote a poem about a visit from St. Nick. It was Moore (and a few other New Yorkers) who invented St. Nick's physical appearance and personality, came up with the idea that Santa travels on Christmas Eve in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, comes down the chimney, stuffs toys in the kids' stockings, then goes back to the North Pole.

Of course, the Puritans denounced Santa as the Anti-Christ, because he pushed Jesus to the background. Furthermore, Santa implicitly rejected the whole Christian ethics. He did not denounce the rich and demand that they give everything to the poor; on the contrary, he gave gifts to rich and poor children alike. Nor is Santa a champion of Christian mercy or unconditional love. On the contrary, he is for justice -- Santa gives only to good children, not to bad ones.

All the best customs of Christmas, from carols to trees to spectacular decorations, have their root in pagan ideas and practices. These customs were greatly amplified by American culture, as the product of reason, science, business, worldliness, and egoism, i.e., the pursuit of happiness.

America's tragedy is that its intellectual leaders have typically tried to replace happiness with guilt by insisting that the spiritual meaning of Christmas is religion and self-sacrifice for Tiny Tim or his equivalent. But the spiritual must start with recognizing reality. Life requires reason, selfishness, capitalism; that is what Christmas should celebrate -- and really, underneath all the pretense, that is what it does celebrate. It is time to take the Christ out of Christmas, and turn the holiday into a guiltlessly egoistic, pro-reason, this-worldly, commercial celebration.

========

Dr. Peikoff was associate editor, with Ayn Rand, of The Objectivist and The Ayn Rand Letter (1971-76). He is author of Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand. He is founder of the Ayn Rand Institute.

dulcinea · Post by **dulcinea** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:35 am

That is a witty and sometimes wise essay. As someone who grew up with the Three Wise Men, however, I find sc disturbing and even scary.
SC IS COMING TO TOWN, in which sc is portrayed as the really nasty sibling of Big Brother, is certainly disturbing and scary; I prefer WE THREE KINGS OF ORIENT ARE.
I have created a cartoon in which sc tries to read with a loupe a postage stamp-sized LIST OF GOOD CHILDREN, while behind him is a huge collection of gigantic books marked LIST OF NAUGHTY CHILDREN: AA, AB, AC, and so forth.

Cyril Ignatius · Post by **Cyril Ignatius** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:05 am

dulcinea wrote:HOW DID IT COME TO BE PROFANED AND POLLUTED WITH PAGAN GARBAGE SUCH AS ELVES AND REINDEER THAT HAVE GLOWING NOSES BECAUSE THEY DRINK TOO MUCH MOONSHINE?
CHRISTMAS IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY WHEN ITS ,,SYMBOL'' IS A CREATURE AS GROTESQUE AND RIDICULOUS AS santa claus.

You are right about the war against Christmas. The trends are variously towards secularizing and re-paganizing Christmas. And of course, part of the answer to this problem is to keep it Christmas and not accept "XMas". While pagan cultures often celebrated the solstice, and while Christianity as it grew, rightfully adapted certain cultural traditions among pagans, Christmas is fundamentally about the coming of the Messiah. And it is up to Christians today to keep the Messiah central to Christmas; not shopping, not paganism, and not office parties.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:11 am

Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.

But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

Thread duty:

I think it is misspent energy, to wax righteously indignant over the popular makeover which is Santa Claus.

Now, abysmal pop Christmas music pouring forth from speakers in public places (or, at least, in common areas) as of the second week of November: that is an abomination ; )

Cheers,
~Karl

piston · Post by **piston** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:53 pm

Blame Haddon Sundblom, from Michigan, and the Coca-Cola company, beginning in 1931. This man's magazine illustrations of Santa drinking Coke is the start of the current, standard depiction of Santa Claus (including why he is dressed in red and white!). The idea of Santa climbing down chimneys dates back from a time when some metropolitan stores hired Santas to stand on their roof, waiving their arms to attract customers.
BTW, Sundblom also created magazine illustrations for us, HIFI classical music lovers!!!

piston · Post by **piston** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:00 pm

I presume it was easy to get men dressed as Santas spending their days and evenings waiving on store roofs during the Great Depression....

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:24 pm

piston wrote:. . . The idea of Santa climbing down chimneys dates back from a time when some metropolitan stores hired Santas to stand on their roof, waving their arms to attract customers.

St Nick climbs down the chimney in the Clement Clarke Moore poem, which was originally published in 1823.

Cheers,
~Karl

piston · Post by **piston** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:27 pm

Yep. And guess where Sundblom got his inspiration:

For inspiration, Sundblom turned to Clement Clark Moore's 1822 poem "A Visit From St. Nicholas" (commonly called "'Twas the Night Before Christmas"). Moore's description of St. Nick led to an image of Santa that was warm, friendly, pleasantly plump and human. For the next 33 years, Sundblom painted portraits of Santa that helped to create the modern image of Santa -- an interpretation that today lives on in the minds of people of all ages, all over the world.

piston · Post by **piston** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:35 pm

But to get back to dulcinea's point (I think), the view that Christmas was too commercially oriented has probably been a constant one, especially among the more "orthodox" observers of this event. Hey, Charlie Brown expressed that very view in his first Christmas cartoon, back in 1965! Back then, we, kids, got one present each (and couldn't wait for the midnight mass to be over!).

Wallingford · Post by **Wallingford** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:50 pm

karlhenning wrote: Now, abysmal pop Christmas music pouring forth from speakers in public places (or, at least, in common areas) as of the second week of November: that is an abomination ; )

Cheers,
~Karl[/color]

Better an abysmal pop song than those worse-than-abysmal animated TV specials.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:14 pm

As pointed out above, Christmas was a pagan holiday. The NT Christians certainly did not celebrate the holiday and there is no mention of it in the Bible. Probably came in during the time that Constantine wanted to stop all the bickering among the various Christian fiefdoms in his Empire, and so everyone settle on the Trinity, the Nicene Creed, and the pagan Winter Solstice was then the birthday of Jesus. Thus ended Arminianism, various theories of the Incarnation of Christ, and any tolerance and true knowledge of paganism. (Although the latter seems to be making a comeback.)

The name 'Santa Claus' does come from the Dutch 'Sinter Klaas' by way of the same Dutch New Yorkers who brought Peter Stuyvesant cigarettes, the Syracuse Orangemen basketball team and Hofstra (rhymes with Slofstra) University to America.

In Holland we celebrated Sinter Klaas on December 6 or was it the 5th.

Here is the Sinter Klaas of my youth, and he scared this little boy witless, especially because I was sure that his accomplice Zwarte Piet (Black Peter) would take me away in his sack. After all, I had been threatened with that for most of the entire preceding year. Let's say that it was not a good start for my experience in race relations although I seem to have gotten over it since.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:48 pm

slofstra wrote:As pointed out above, Christmas was a pagan holiday.

Well, Christmas per se was never a pagan holiday; pagans never celebrated a Mass of the Nativity.

There were pagan holidays at the same time of year as Christmas.

A modern example: The fact that the Russians now celebrate a Day of National Unity where previously the holiday had been dedicated to the October Revolution during the Soviet era, does not mean that Russians are now "really" celebrating the October Revolution that day.

Cheers,
~Karl

Wallingford · Post by **Wallingford** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:28 pm

As for Rudolph himself, there's this summary from hubpages:

*************************

A Story About a Christmas Classic

For almost three quarters of a century the song Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer has remained a popular hit at Christmas time. In fact the song, has become an integral part of our Christmas celebration much the same as other Christmas musical classics such as Silent Night or White Christmas.

Like Silent Night, which began as a modest piece intended to enhance the Christmas Eve Mass in the church in the little Austrian village of Oberndorf, and went on to become a Christmas classic sung and enjoyed world wide, the motivation behind the creation of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was also modest. The fact is Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was created by a major retail store for the purpose of enticing shoppers to do their Christmas shopping at that store. However, the love that the copywriter assigned to write the story invested in its creation caused it to transcend its original limited commercial objective and touch the hearts of adults and children in the generations that followed. And the story of the origins of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer is as heartwarming as the story and song itself.

A Ray of Sunshine for a Sad Little Girl
Rudolph's story begins sometime in 1939. The nation was still in the midst of the Great Depression but that didn't prevent people from celebrating and enjoying the good times of life. Times may have been difficult but that just meant that people had to be more careful with their money.

In the Chicago headquarters of department store giant, Montgomery Ward, that summer, executives were making plans for the coming Christmas season.

In those days cities were more compact and commerce was centered in the downtown. Scattered amongst the big banks and office buildings were the large, multistoried department stores. During the Christmas season shoppers would flock downtown and these stores competed fiercely for these people's shopping dollars. To attract customers the stores put up lavish decorations and, in their toy departments, they would create elaborate Christmas kingdom displays with Santa Claus enthroned in the middle. The highlight of the Christmas shopping season for children was a trip downtown with Mom and Dad to visit Santa Claus. They would stand in line and, when their turn came, would sit on Santa's lap. After assuring Santa that they had been good, or had at least were trying hard to be good, they would tell Santa what they wanted for Christmas. Santa would then assure them that he would do his best to give them the toy they most desired and then, after making their requests and got up to leave, Santa would reach into the big sack next to his chair and, reminding them to be good, give them a little parting gift.

For many years Montgomery Ward had filled their Santa's sack with a Christmas coloring book that they had specially printed each year. But this year the Montgomery Ward executives wanted something new and different. They also wanted to save money. So, instead of calling upon an outside firm to create the new item, as they had done in the past, they decided to have their own advertising department create the new giveaway.

Thus it happened that Robert L. May, a 34 year-old copywriter for Montgomery Ward, found himself charged with coming up with a new gift for their Santa to give to the little children. May went to work developing a Christmas story for children. As a child, May had always been small for his age and this had brought forth taunts and ridicule from the other children. Drawing upon his experiences of being somewhat different and an outcast, May set about creating a character with similar problems who, in the end, rises above his problems and is transformed.

The year 1939 was a difficult time in the life of Robert May. In addition to the worries of losing his job in the Depression that had engulfed the economy, his wife lay dying of cancer. Dispite his own worries and grief, May had to be stoic and, setting his own grief aside, help his four year old daughter, Barbara deal with the trauma of seeing her Mother die. However, little Barbara, in her own way helped her Dad with the creation of Rudolph. Robert worked on the project in the office and then came home and tested out themes and story lines on Barbara. Work and home life converged in a way that both allowed father and daughter to come closer together as well as providing a diversion from the troubles that surrounded them. Some even credit Barbara with the naming of Rudolph, claiming that May tested different names on Barbara and Rudolph was the one that she enjoyed the most.

Robert May's creation was not the Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer song that everyone now knows so well and it was not the popular cartoon that is now shown on TV each Christmas. No, May's creation was a short story written in rhyming verse. It was the story of a little reindeer who was different due to a physical deformity – a bright red nose. Unlike the Rudolph we now know from the song and cartoon, May's original Rudolph lived an ordinary life with his parents in the woods. He did not live at the North Pole and his parents were not part of Santa's reindeer team. Oh, Rudolph had to deal with the taunts of the other little reindeer who shunned him because he was different. Like May as a child, Rudolph was lonely and had few friends. But, rather than dwelling on his problems, Rudolph had a positive outlook on life and did not let his deformity hold him back.

In the original story, Rudolph's big moment came when Santa landed his sleigh at Rudolph's home to deliver gifts to him and the other good little reindeer in the neighborhood. As Santa landed a fog started to roll in. By the time Santa had finished delivering presents to the little reindeer in the area, the fog had become dense, making it impossible for Santa to take off safely. With children all over the world expecting him to visit and leave presents, Santa had a dilemma – he couldn't see to take off in the fog but if he did not take off he would disappoint children all over the world. At that moment Santa noticed Rudolph with his shiny red nose and asked him to lead his sleigh. Rudolph agreed and Santa was able to make his deliveries. Following Santa's successful Christmas Eve journey with Rudolph in the lead, the story ends with Santa saying to Rudolph, "By YOU last night's journey was actually bossed. Without you, I'm certain we'd all have been lost!" This is a little different from the song and cartoon which end with the other reindeer praising Rudolph by saying he will go down in history.

May's Book Was an Immediate Hit with Children
The booklet given out by the Montgomery Ward Santas was an immediate hit with children and their parents with Montgomery Ward distributing 2.4 million copies the first year. The popularity of the story continued in the years immediately following 1939 but, because of war time paper shortages, Montgomery Ward was only able to produce and distribute 6 million copies between 1939 and 1946. Because the booklets were simple giveaways for children printed on newspaper stock very few of those original 6 million booklets produced by Montgomery Ward survive to this day.

Despite the immediate success of his creation, things did not go well for Robert May. His wife died about the time the Rudolph story first came out. The medical expenses of her illness left May deeply in debt. Further, even though May was the author of an immensely popular work he did not benefit financially from it. First of all, it was a give away and did not produce any revenue directly (but Montgomery Ward profited indirectly as the people who thronged to its stores with their children to get the booklets, tended to stay and do their Christmas shopping there). But, more importantly, while May was the author of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, Montgomery Ward was the owner of the work since the story was produced as a part of his job at Montgomery Ward (as lawyers would say it was a "work for hire").

Robert May Gets Rights to His Creation and Gene Autry Agrees to Record the Song
In late 1946, the financially strapped May approached Sewell Avery, President of Montgomery Ward and asked for the rights to publish the story commercially. Avery granted his request and in January 1947 the copyright to Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was given to May by his employer. May then published the story commercially as a book in 1947 and also authorized the production and release of a nine minute cartoon version of the story for showing in theaters (in those pre-TV days theaters usually preceded the feature show with newsreels and/or cartoons). May then teamed up with his brother-in-law, songwriter Johnny Marks to turn May's story-poem into a song. In writing the lyrics, Marks changed the story slightly from May's original to the story we know today in the song.

May and Marks originally had some difficulty finding a singer for the song as many were reluctant to do something that changed the image of Santa and his reindeer as set down by Clement Moore a century earlier in his popular poem entitled It Was the Night Before Christmas. But finally Gene Autry, the singer and actor best known for his role in westerns agreed to record the song. Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was first sung commercially by Gene Autry in 1949 and instantly became a smash hit and had its place assured in the cannon of traditional Christmas music.

From 1947 on, May enjoyed the benefits of his 1939 creation. He left Montgomery Ward and devoted his time to managing his creation until his retirement in 1971. In 1976 May died but his story about Rudolph lives on adding joy to the lives of new generations of children just as it brought joy to his four year old daughter Barbara during that difficult Christmas season in 1939 as she faced the holidays with her mother slowly dying.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:55 pm

slofstra wrote:As pointed out above, Christmas was a pagan holiday. The NT Christians certainly did not celebrate the holiday and there is no mention of it in the Bible. Probably came in during the time that Constantine wanted to stop all the bickering among the various Christian fiefdoms in his Empire, and so everyone settle on the Trinity, the Nicene Creed, and the pagan Winter Solstice was then the birthday of Jesus. Thus ended Arminianism, various theories of the Incarnation of Christ, and any tolerance and true knowledge of paganism. (Although the latter seems to be making a comeback.)

For anybody interested . . .

The birthday for the Roman sun god, Sol Invictus, was introduced by the emperor Aurelian in 274AD on 25 December – the birth of the Sun (winter solstice in the Julian calendar). Christ was identified by Jerome (amongst others) as Sol Justitiae (Mal 4:2), the Sun of Justice who would shine forth in glory upon return (see De Solsticia). The first recorded Christian Christmas in Rome we know of was as early as 336 (see McCluskey’s Astronomies and Cultures in Early Medieval Europe or, if you have the language skill, see Botte, Origines de la Noël), and we have copies of Augustine’s Christmas sermons comparing pagan worship of the visible sun, Sol Invictus, with Christian worship of the Sun of Justice, Sol Justitiae. Christ was compared directly to the Sun of the regular day by Zeno of Verona: as the sun sets and rises again so did the Son die and rise again. The twelve apostles were compared to the twelve signs of the zodiac—and therefore twelve months—and the twelve hours of daylight. This was in the tradition of the Jewish Philo of Alexandria, who had compared the twelve Patriarchs and the twelve tribes of Israel to the twelve signs of the zodiac. The year-long progress of the Sun through the zodiac was analogous to the year-long progress of Christ’s active teaching.

This early aspect of Christian worship in which the Sun was appropriated from pagan ritual and from scriptural texts to provide a spiritual symbol of Christ, flavours much of the development of the early Christian calendar.
Stephen C McCluskey Astronomies and Cultures in Early Medieval Europe [1998 Cambridge p25]

Of course, this includes Christmas, the winter solstice or, as Joseph Campbell has pointed out, three days after the solstice of the 22nd—the moon dies and is reborn in three days—and so did Jesus die and rise on the third day! However, in ancient times the solstice was 25th December.

In Alexandria and other places in the Hellenic world, the birth of Christ was celebrated on 6 January, in opposition to pagan celebrations of the birth of a sun god celebrated on the same date. The growing light on this date, twelve days after the nominal Julian date for the solstice, 25 December, came to symbolize for later interpreters the victory of Christ, the light of the world, and his twelve apostles over the darkness.
Stephen C McCluskey Astronomies and Cultures in Early Medieval Europe [1998 Cambridge p26]

The four points of dividing the seasons in antiquity was not on the first of the month, rather 25 March, 24 June, 24 September and 25 December marked the equinoxes and solstices until Christian times, when symbolism was overlayed to make the dates more significant. Thus 25 March is the day of the conception of Jesus, 24 June the birthday of John the Baptist and 24 September the conception of the Baptist.

It soon became a commonplace to compare the two solstices, noting that John and his light declined from his birth at midsummer, while Christ’s grew from his birth in the dark of winter. As John said of Jesus, “he must grow greater, while I must diminish” (John 3:30).
Stephen C McCluskey Astronomies and Cultures in Early Medieval Europe [1998 Cambridge p27]

For the medieval mind, nearly everything was thought of as biblical allegory, from natural disasters to wars, to politics, to the seasons, to why you fight with your wife. They saw it as confirming the way the biblical God permeated His creation, not as a set of mental filters/blinkers that didn’t allow for a non-biblical thought. A mythology as rich in story and symbolism as biblically based Christianity plus classical learning and Hellenic and Germanic paganism had a wealth of material (and therefore some in opposition to each other) available for such interpretive purposes. Almost any number could be imbued with symbolic significance, and so their mathematics was qualitatively different from our own. And since they were obsessed with such things, they deliberately imbued their art and architecture with such meaning (see Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose)

In The Birth of the Messiah Raymond E. Brown cites Clement of Alexandria’s Stromata I 21 (## 145-146) for dates of May 20 and April 20-21 as other possibilities.

Quite apart from the date, the actual form of the nativity in gospel and in tradition is heavily influenced by pagan religion. The Three Wise Men have caused particular concern over the years, as the gospel of Matthew never mentions how many there were nor any details of their inscrutable purposes.

Three aspects of the Mithraic cult combined to give Christian apologists an ideal opportunity to attack astral religion and its philosophical cousin, astrology. First was the prevalence of astral imagery, second was the Persian origin of Mithras, and the third was the order of the Magi who had played a major role in the earlier Persian cult. To Christian ears, Persian Magi who watched the stars had obvious resonances with the Gospel account (Matt 2:2-12) of the wise men who came from the East bearing gifts for the Christ Child.

This Persian image is reflected and transformed in Christian art from the beginning of the fourth century as the Magi were added to traditional portrayals of the Nativity of Christ. The Magi strikingly resemble traditional portrayals of Mithras; they wear the same Persian attire of trousers, flowing cape and Phrygian cap. The number of Magi, formerly varying to suit artistic demands, becomes set at three, reminiscent both of the three gifts brought to the Christ Child and of the three figures in the “triple Mithras.” Instead of the primordial bull with Mithras’ knife at it’s throat, an ox stands quietly by, illustrating the recognition and worship of the incarnate divinity by dumb nature. Most significant as an anti-Mithraic and anti-astrological portrayal, the Persian Magi themselves recognize the child, reverently offering him gifts symbolic of his kingship, divinity and humanity
Stephen C McCluskey Astronomies and Cultures in Early Medieval Europe [1998 Cambridge p42-45]

David Ulansey, in Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries, points to the origin of the Mithraic cult as being centred on Tarsus in Cilicia, legendarily associated with Perseus, the hero in the Phrygian cap, (whose son Perses provided Persia with its Grecian name) who mythically transformed into Mithras. The cult of Mithras has, in fact, little to do with the Persian cult of Mithra beyond the name, despite 75 years of mistaken scholarship based on the work of Cumont. A point worthy of note in passing, however, is the apostle Paul’s original existence as Saul of Tarsus.

Note this technique of reworking the heresy or incorporating the opposite: Christianity taking pagan imagery and concepts, reworking them biblically and declaring the previous, traditional interpretation heretical or demonic. It may be an effective and/or expedient tactic but it leads to an accumulation of contradictory religious ideas and bewildering symbolism. The theology and cosmology of the Middle Ages became increasingly baroque and confusing: one of the ‘miracles’ of science (and, to some extent, the Reformation) was its ability to simplify labyrinthine concepts and arguments into simple, universal models based on the solid logic of mathematics and the evidence of repeated observation.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:59 pm

karlhenning wrote:
slofstra wrote:As pointed out above, Christmas was a pagan holiday.
Well, Christmas per se was never a pagan holiday; pagans never celebrated a Mass of the Nativity.

There were pagan holidays at the same time of year as Christmas.

A modern example: The fact that the Russians now celebrate a Day of National Unity where previously the holiday had been dedicated to the October Revolution during the Soviet era, does not mean that Russians are now "really" celebrating the October Revolution that day.

Cheers,
~Karl

Well, Christmas ... per se, as you say ... never was a pagan holiday. But Christmas was a pagan holiday.

It all depends on what you mean by 'was'. The way we celebrate Christmas still has distinctly pagan roots. For example, the Christmas tree is, no doubt, an antecedent of pagan tree worship.

This just crossed with Brendan's post. No doubt he has some real information on the subject.

piston · Post by **piston** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:10 pm

And beyond the point in time when the clergy began to celebrate Christmas as a religious event, there's the more fascinating question (to me) of when the general population, predominantly rural and presumably the source of all persistent pagan rites, did so in as a major (ie, majority) way. Did my ancestors do so, only ten generations ago, when churches had yet to be built, itinerant missionaries came once or twice a year for weddings, burials and baptisms, and winter among the peasantry was the time for non-religious social events? I'm sure, though, that they didn't talk about Saint-Nicolas or Santa Claus back then.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:14 pm

The tree with gifts was either Celtic or Teutonic, from memory. I'd have to check sources further.

Solstices, seasons, harvests and such were extremely important to everybody, rural and urban. It was a unifying cultural factor we lack today.

The other story that does the rounds this time of year was that the modern Santa was invented by Coca-cola advertising. See http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christma ... cacola.asp

living_stradivarius · Post by **living_stradivarius** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:44 pm

Santa and reindeer also have Finnish roots. Go up to Finland and you'll see'em all over the place. Nothing profane about it. It's human.

It's not a matter of other winter holidays profaning your religious holiday. "Christmas" is just a signpost for multiple winter celebrations because Christianity planted deep stake in Western Civilization.

piston · Post by **piston** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:04 pm

Brendan wrote:The tree with gifts was either Celtic or Teutonic, from memory. I'd have to check sources further.

Solstices, seasons, harvests and such were extremely important to everybody, rural and urban. It was a unifying cultural factor we lack today.

The other story that does the rounds this time of year was that the modern Santa was invented by Coca-cola advertising. See http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christma ... cacola.asp

Yes. I think I read that somewhere as well. Some Swedish guy in Michigan who made a career out of it.

Cyril Ignatius · Post by **Cyril Ignatius** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:21 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

Thread duty:

I think it is misspent energy, to wax righteously indignant over the popular makeover which is Santa Claus.

Now, abysmal pop Christmas music pouring forth from speakers in public places (or, at least, in common areas) as of the second week of November: that is an abomination ; )

Cheers,
~Karl

Alas Karl, Most of us don't live in Greece, and we need to keep Christmas in the English speaking world, including the many of us ignorant of greek language. Not that Greek, and Greece, aren't great - they are. But there is a war against Christmas going on, and the Christian has a duty to keep the Messiah at the center of it all.

Agnes Selby · Post by **Agnes Selby** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:16 pm

The advantage of being Santa:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/american-sa ... -jhfe.html

Cyril Ignatius · Post by **Cyril Ignatius** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:23 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:The advantage of being Santa:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/american-sa ... -jhfe.html

So even the Santas in the malls have imbibed from the culture of entitlement!!!!!!!

All the more reason to search for the real Saint Nicholas, who did in fact journey over hill and dale bringing gifts to poor people and carrying the Gospel to everyday people.....Saint Nicholas put the children first.

Madame · Post by **Madame** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:47 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

OK, a raise of hands -- how many use the 'X' as chi, and how many use it as an abbreviation?

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:49 pm

Madame wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

OK, a raise of hands -- how many use the 'X' as chi, and how many use it as an abbreviation?

It's not either/or.

Madame · Post by **Madame** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:55 pm

slofstra wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
slofstra wrote:As pointed out above, Christmas was a pagan holiday.
Well, Christmas per se was never a pagan holiday; pagans never celebrated a Mass of the Nativity.

There were pagan holidays at the same time of year as Christmas.

A modern example: The fact that the Russians now celebrate a Day of National Unity where previously the holiday had been dedicated to the October Revolution during the Soviet era, does not mean that Russians are now "really" celebrating the October Revolution that day.

Cheers,
~Karl
Well, Christmas ... per se, as you say ... never was a pagan holiday. But Christmas was a pagan holiday.

It all depends on what you mean by 'was'. The way we celebrate Christmas still has distinctly pagan roots. For example, the Christmas tree is, no doubt, an antecedent of pagan tree worship.

Is that kind of, like,

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement"

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Madame · Post by **Madame** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:58 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Madame wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

OK, a raise of hands -- how many use the 'X' as chi, and how many use it as an abbreviation?

It's not either/or.

OK, I'll rephrase it -- how many knowingly use it as 'chi' representing the first letter of Christ's name, and how many just abbreviate it for convenience? I'd call that an either/or.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:05 pm

Madame wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Madame wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

OK, a raise of hands -- how many use the 'X' as chi, and how many use it as an abbreviation?

It's not either/or.
OK, I'll rephrase it -- how many knowingly use it as 'chi' representing the first letter of Christ's name, and how many just abbreviate it for convenience? I'd call that an either/or.

I was an old man of maybe 30 before I found out about chi (I've never used it for Christmas). And it took a Lutheran to tell me that the symbol below, commonly encountered in Catholic churches, is chi ro (the first two letters of Christos). Always knew about IHS, though.

Madame · Post by **Madame** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:28 pm

jbuck919 wrote: I was an old man of maybe 30 before I found out about chi (I've never used it for Christmas). And it took a Lutheran to tell me that the symbol below, commonly encountered in Catholic churches, is chi ro (the first two letters of Christos). Always knew about IHS, though.

So then, how did chi rho become a symbol for prescription drugs?

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:58 am

Cyril Ignatius wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

Thread duty:

I think it is misspent energy, to wax righteously indignant over the popular makeover which is Santa Claus.

Now, abysmal pop Christmas music pouring forth from speakers in public places (or, at least, in common areas) as of the second week of November: that is an abomination ; )

Cheers,
~Karl
Alas Karl, Most of us don't live in Greece, and we need to keep Christmas in the English speaking world, including the many of us ignorant of greek language. Not that Greek, and Greece, aren't great - they are. But there is a war against Christmas going on, and the Christian has a duty to keep the Messiah at the center of it all.

Just wondered Cyril if you knew what the original language of the New Testament was. Clue, not English and likely not Aramaic.

I also understood the PX to represent Pious Christus.

Could someone indicate how Christmas "abbreviates" to Xmas. The abbreviation would be C-mas would it not?

Prescriptions are RX, I thought.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:04 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:Santa and reindeer also have Finnish roots. Go up to Finland and you'll see'em all over the place. Nothing profane about it. It's human.

It's not a matter of other winter holidays profaning your religious holiday. "Christmas" is just a signpost for multiple winter celebrations because Christianity planted deep stake in Western Civilization.

Profaning? You seem to have a grudge against pagans.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:29 pm

slofstra wrote:Could someone indicate how Christmas "abbreviates" to Xmas. The abbreviation would be C-mas would it not?

Actually, Wikipedia is fairly informative on this:

“Most of the evidence for these words comes from educated Englishmen who knew their Greek,” according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, referring to the OED citations.

Cheers,
~Karl

living_stradivarius · Post by **living_stradivarius** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:38 pm

Madame wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Madame wrote:Some people think substituting the "X" for Christ is profane and polluting.
But it isn't an X, it's the Greek letter chi which is the first letter of Christos.

OK, a raise of hands -- how many use the 'X' as chi, and how many use it as an abbreviation?

All statisticians use X as chi

Did you know that chi appears in "children" and "chimney", which are commonly noted in X-Mas?

living_stradivarius · Post by **living_stradivarius** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:41 pm

slofstra wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:Santa and reindeer also have Finnish roots. Go up to Finland and you'll see'em all over the place. Nothing profane about it. It's human.

It's not a matter of other winter holidays profaning your religious holiday. "Christmas" is just a signpost for multiple winter celebrations because Christianity planted deep stake in Western Civilization.
Profaning? You seem to have a grudge against pagans.

seems circular i know

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