Did "Pact with the Devil" doom Haiti?

[RebLem]

Haiti cursed by Pact with the Devil, says Pat Robertson

Huffington Post | Danny Shea First Posted: 01-13-10 02:45 PM | Updated: 01-13-10 04:16 PM

Televangelist Pat Robertson said Wednesday that earthquake-ravaged Haiti has been "cursed" by a "pact to the devil."

"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it," he said on Christian Broadcasting Network's "The 700 Club." "They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III, or whatever. [It was whatever. It was the original Napoleon Bonaparte. Nappy 3 came along in mid-centuiry, long after Haiti had won its independence.--RebLem] And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, we will serve you if you'll get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, okay it's a deal."

Robertson said that "ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other" and he contrasted Haiti with its neighbor, the Dominican Republic.

"That island of Hispaniola is one island. It is cut down the middle; on the one side is Haiti on the other is the Dominican Republic," he said. "Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a great turning to God and out of this tragedy I'm optimistic something good may come. But right now we are helping the suffering people and the suffering is unimaginable."

Videos of these and other related materials available with the article @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/1 ... 22099.html

[HoustonDavid]

Somehow, I don't think "The Devil Did It". That kind of thinking will certainly make the
thousands of people trapped under the rubble feel better. Of course, without electricity
they can't hear Pat Robertson, which must be some kind of blessing. They were never
his greatest contributors to begin with considering their dire poverty, but to cast them
under the spell of "The Devil" is a little extreme. I wonder how many of his contributors
will send money to actually help these poor victims who did nothing to bring it upon
themselves.

[living_stradivarius]

F8ck Pat Robertson

[HoustonDavid]

F8ck Pat Robertson

Henry, somehow your response if soooo much more appropriate. Wish it wasn't so.

[Agnes Selby]

Somehow, I don't think "The Devil Did It". That kind of thinking will certainly make the
thousands of people trapped under the rubble feel better. Of course, without electricity
they can't hear Pat Robertson, which must be some kind of blessing. They were never
his greatest contributors to begin with considering their dire poverty, but to cast them
under the spell of "The Devil" is a little extreme. I wonder how many of his contributors
will send money to actually help these poor victims who did nothing to bring it upon
themselves.

-------------

I could not agree with you more. A similar thing happened in 2008 during
the most devasting bush fires in Victoria, Australia. An American preacher,
whose name I no longer remember made a statement that Victorians
were being punished for their lax laws regarding homosexuals and for allowing
them to marry and adopt children. I do not think this preacher will venture
to visit Australia.

-------------

[Corlyss_D]

Somehow I sense the subtext for this thread is "See! Evil superstitious conservatives still believe in magic and devils! Their policy positions are merely of a piece with and manifestations of their evil superstitions. Therefore they are unworthy of serious consideration." If that's the case . . .



I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[absinthe]

This is the biggest load of rubbish I’ve read in ages. Ayisyens made no pact with the devil. It was the bloody Christians who caused all the problems, second only to slave owners. It was under the Christian aegis that the indigens of Haiti/Hispaniola were wiped out to make way for the plantations and import of African slaves.

The Africans had their own religious beliefs, different beliefs according to the region from which they came.

As you probably know, slavers would allocate slaves from different regions to purchasers so the slaves couldn’t communicate.

Unfortunately, the Africans found commonalities in their religious beliefs that did allow them to communicate and form a common religion. It was the Christians who damned them for their “black magic” – no prizes for guessing why: it assuaged their (Christian) consciences over the atrocities they committed on the blacks. It beggars belief that people could inflict such horrors on other humans. But they did. All in the name of God.

But instead of the blacks submitting to the Christians, they managed to keep up their own practices. Guess why? They recognised many of the Christians symbols, like the Cross frinstance, that had been lifted from these African religions (via Egypt). So the Vodouisants learned to disguise their “religion” by aligning it syncretically with Christian symbolism.

It was the Christians who damned Africans as evil and spread the bad word that led to Vodou’s bad reputation. They blighted any chance of Haiti to develop its own way of life, let alone economy.

It’s interesting that, were this earthquake over a pact with the devil (which one? I might ask), retaliation came in the shape of flattening both important cathedrals and the presidential palace, built under Christian auspices, buildings that have stood for centuries. It could just be that the Lwa called upon in Vodou ceremonies had had enough of God and the Christans who were, let’s face it, a bunch of charlatans and brutal hypocrites having little to do with the teaching of Christ.

I bet more Vodou peristyles remain intact after this earthquake, than churches.

You think Hitler was bad? You wanna look up what the Christians did in the Caribbean.

[jbuck919]

There will always be people who interpret horrible things as the visitation of God's wrath. We got it with AIDS, we got it with Katrina. In another thread, Dulcinea compared the current situation with the Lisbon earthquake of 1755. Well, consider this from the Wikipedia:

The earthquake had wide-ranging effects on the lives of the populace and intelligentsia. The earthquake had struck on an important church holiday and had destroyed almost every important church in the city, causing anxiety and confusion amongst the citizens of a staunch and devout Roman Catholic city and country, which had been a major patron of the Church. Theologians and philosophers would focus and speculate on the religious cause and message, seeing the earthquake as a manifestation of the anger of God.

The earthquake and its fallout strongly influenced the intelligentsia of the European Age of Enlightenment. The noted writer-philosopher Voltaire used the earthquake in Candide and in his Poème sur le désastre de Lisbonne ("Poem on the Lisbon disaster"). Voltaire's Candide attacks the notion that all is for the best in this, "the best of all possible worlds", a world closely supervised by a benevolent deity. The Lisbon disaster provided a salutary counterexample. As Theodor Adorno wrote, "[t]he earthquake of Lisbon sufficed to cure Voltaire of the theodicy of Leibniz" (Negative Dialectics 361). In the later twentieth century, following Adorno, the 1755 earthquake has sometimes been compared to the Holocaust as a catastrophe that transformed European culture and philosophy. Jean-Jacques Rousseau was also influenced by the devastation following the earthquake, whose severity he believed was due to too many people living within the close quarters of the city. Rousseau used the earthquake as an argument against cities as part of his desire for a more naturalistic way of life.[citation needed]
Immanuel Kant

The concept of the sublime, though it existed before 1755, was developed in philosophy and elevated to greater importance by Immanuel Kant, in part as a result of his attempts to comprehend the enormity of the Lisbon quake and tsunami. Kant published three separate texts on the Lisbon earthquake. The young Kant, fascinated with the earthquake, collected all the information available to him in news pamphlets, and used it to formulate a theory of the causes of earthquakes. Kant's theory, which involved the shifting of huge subterranean caverns filled with hot gases, was (though ultimately shown to be false) one of the first systematic modern attempts to explain earthquakes by positing natural, rather than supernatural, causes. According to Walter Benjamin, Kant's slim early book on the earthquake "probably represents the beginnings of scientific geography in Germany. And certainly the beginnings of seismology."

Werner Hamacher has claimed that the earthquake's consequences extended into the vocabulary of philosophy, making the common metaphor of firm "grounding" for philosophers' arguments shaky and uncertain: "Under the impression exerted by the Lisbon earthquake, which touched the European mind in one [of] its more sensitive epochs, the metaphor of ground and tremor completely lost their apparent innocence; they were no longer merely figures of speech" (263). Hamacher claims that the foundational certainty of Descartes' philosophy began to shake following the Lisbon earthquake.

[SaulChanukah]

Haiti cursed by Pact with the Devil, says Pat Robertson

Huffington Post | Danny Shea First Posted: 01-13-10 02:45 PM | Updated: 01-13-10 04:16 PM

Televangelist Pat Robertson said Wednesday that earthquake-ravaged Haiti has been "cursed" by a "pact to the devil."

"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it," he said on Christian Broadcasting Network's "The 700 Club." "They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III, or whatever. [It was whatever. It was the original Napoleon Bonaparte. Nappy 3 came along in mid-centuiry, long after Haiti had won its independence.--RebLem] And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, we will serve you if you'll get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, okay it's a deal."

Robertson said that "ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other" and he contrasted Haiti with its neighbor, the Dominican Republic.

"That island of Hispaniola is one island. It is cut down the middle; on the one side is Haiti on the other is the Dominican Republic," he said. "Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a great turning to God and out of this tragedy I'm optimistic something good may come. But right now we are helping the suffering people and the suffering is unimaginable."

Videos of these and other related materials available with the article @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/1 ... 22099.html

If Robertson said such a thing I believe that he is dead wrong. People are suffering in Haiti and no one wants to hear his criticism of how , why it happened. People need to be concerned now with helping them not criticizing them.

What a loser this Robertson.

[Donald Isler]

Saul's best post (and he couldn't be more correct!):


"If Robertson said such a thing I believe that he is dead wrong. People are suffering in Haiti and no one wants to hear his criticism of how , why it happened. People need to be concerned now with helping them not criticizing them.

What a loser this Robertson."

[Auntie Lynn]

Nature and/or natural selection has a way of winnowing out what Ebenezer Scrooge called the "surplus population" - 6,000,000 here 7,000,000 there - wasn't there a huge flood in Pakistan a couple of years ago that killed 600,000? It's nothing new - check it out...

BTW, overpopulation is "what's killing California." Nobody wants to admit it...

[jbuck919]

BTW, overpopulation is "what's killing California." Nobody wants to admit it...

And we know about California and earthquakes.

[HoustonDavid]

Corlyss, I think we've managed to make you paranoid about conservative issues. Robertson
made an idiotic remark and should be chastised for it, not because he is a conservative
preacher. Unfortunatley he has a huge following and some of those people are going to
believe his tripe and not do what they can to help devastated Haiti.

[Agnes Selby]

Corlyss, I think we've managed to make you paranoid about conservative issues. Robertson
made an idiotic remark and should be chastised for it, not because he is a conservative
preacher. Unfortunatley he has a huge following and some of those people are going to
believe his tripe and not do what they can to help devastated Haiti.

--------------

And therein lies the truth. Robertson's statement is no doubt
calculated to divert the donations of his flock to his own coffers
rather than where it is most needed - in Haiti.

[Guitarist]

"Haiti cursed by Pact with the Devil, says Pat Robertson"

How can someone this ignorant continue to live?

[jbuck919]

"Haiti cursed by Pact with the Devil, says Pat Robertson"

How can someone this ignorant continue to live?

We only learn about the ones who are (1) famous, or (2) inescapable in our lives.

[Corlyss_D]

It was the Christians who spread the bad word that led to Vodou’s bad reputation.

Gee. I thought it was the superstition, magic spells, and animal sacrifices that gave Voodoo a bad rap.

They blighted any chance of Haiti to develop its own way of life, let alone economy.

Interesting. And here I thought it was the usual mess the French leave behind them when they vacate their colonies.

[absinthe]

It was the Christians who spread the bad word that led to Vodou’s bad reputation.

Gee. I thought it was the superstition, magic spells, and animal sacrifices that gave Voodoo a bad rap.

Animal sacrifice:
Well, Ayisyens eat dead flesh like most non-vegetarians and sometimes they leave a small offering for a Lwa, most often it's something else though. In a way it's like a Christian 'saying grace'. Animal sacrifices are quite rare. One can never know what the bokors are up to but the expiration of a life is always because the spiritual power is transferred to some other spiritual purpose. Ordination into the Vodou priesthood usually entails a sacrifice; otherwise it would be an extreme ceremony of some kind. I have heard of a sacrifice at kanzos but most branches of Vodou wouldn't demand that.

Generally because most are poor, Ayisyens regard their animals as precious: food and dairy or eggs. And, by the way, the meat is always eaten after a sacrifice (aside from said offering to the Lwa).

Superstition: Well, I'm superstitious - but I'm not so sure many apsects of Vodou are. In ceremony there's the matter of possession: there's more evidence that something's going on than not. The 'horse' (the possessee?) must be drawing powers from somewhere...if inwardly that's as good to outwardly so...? As above, so below, sort of thing. It wouldn't be so remarkable had the phenomenon not happened to "audience" members (in those peristyles that allow outsiders). Besides, the word Lwa derives from the French "loi", law, and refers to the metaphysical energy of the Lwa. All Lwas are energies.

They blighted any chance of Haiti to develop its own way of life, let alone economy.

Interesting. And here I thought it was the usual mess the French leave behind them when they vacate their colonies.

The worst of the mess was leaving Catholic priests behind in various forms: running the missions, bribing the presidents and police, etc. Although they were pretty-well kicked out at the revolt, some evidently stayed or got back in via such trade as the Ayisyens could get going. They persuaded the government to outlaw African religions so Vodou had to be practiced covertly until Dr. Duvalier took over - it couldn't have been enforced much: peristyles were on the go everywhere. There's a typical endearing Vodou story around that: apparently on Fete Gédé, about 1000 Gédés marched on the presidential palace and asked for money. Papa Doc (who was a practitioner, anyway) thereafter allowed Vodou to be recognised and legal - to the chagrin of the Catholics.

Some Catholic priests got themselves mixed up in Vodou so they were probably sympathetic - and maybe got some nice dusky crumpet into the bargain...maybe young boys as well, as seems their predilection.
Not all negative, though. The missions did provide medical care and education where they could.

If I could go out there now, I would...I'd be little use but I could read the kids stories at least.
Crik? Crak!

[Corlyss_D]

Abs, are you a practitioner of Voodoo?

[HoustonDavid]

She obviously knows what she's talking about.

[Corlyss_D]

Apparently the event has produced a plethora of scientifically ignorant blather from people more widely respected than Robertson.

GJSentinel.com

Earthquake comments weren't exactly uplifting

By Gary Harmon

Friday, January 15, 2010

There’s an inner idiot in us just waiting to climb out and romp about in unabashed stupidity, but most people retain just enough wit to keep the idiot bottled up.

Not so in the case of Pat Robertson, as was demonstrated recently in the wake of the extraordinarily destructive earthquake in Haiti.

President Barack, for his part, displayed a disturbing need for a refresher course in basic science in the wake of the tragedy in Haiti.

Haiti, you might recall, has a bad habit of popping up on the radar screen every few years because of its intractable poverty, stubborn refusal to govern itself and insistence on being the yin to the yang of its more stable and prosperous twin, the Dominican Republic, with which Haiti shares the island of Hispaniola.

Hispaniola, for most of us, is all about history. It’s where Columbus set foot in the New World, and set off a chain of events that led to your presence here.

Some in the so-called “reality-based community” have suggested that Columbus is to blame. Yet had Columbus not landed on Hispaniola, the earthquake still would have happened. It’s the force of civilization that was loosed then that will rescue Haiti now, if it’s allowed to.

Which brings us to the preacher and the prez.

Start with Robertson, whose uncanny ability to blurt out something silly at precisely the wrong moment has made him a laughingstock on both ends of the political spectrum.

This is a guy who said aloud in 2005 that Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez ought to be assassinated.

However much deserving of that accolade Chavez might have been, Robertson never could grasp the elementary fact that assassination plots are most effective when they come as a surprise.

Now Robertson is blaming the earthquake on a supposed pact with the devil signed on to by the ancestors of those who are suffering today.

Robertson didn’t cite his source and seems even less capable of understanding, much less dealing with, the reality of the Earth’s primordial forces than the guy in the Oval Office.

Not to be outdone, actor Danny Glover, an environmental activist and pal of Hugo Chavez, showed off his credentials by opining that the earthquake was the Earth’s response to the failed summit at Copenhagen. Why Gaia would take out her wrath on the people with the most minuscule of carbon footprints wasn’t something Glover explained.

The president, apparently unwilling to settle for one gaffe when two were available, went for what is known as the “Full Biden,” declaring that the temblor was “cruel and incomprehensible.”

Given his tendency to ascribe all things bad to anthropogenic causes, it’s unsurprising that Obama would use a word we associate with humans to describe the reality of an earthquake.

Earthquakes, however, are not cruel. They are neither good nor evil. They happen as a result of shifting of the Earth’s crust.

Which brings us to the “incomprehensible” part.

The earthquake is not merely comprehensible, it was expected, at least as much as an earthquake can be expected.

Measurements of Hispaniola conducted in the early 1990s revealed significant fault activity, which prompted geologists to warn the powers-that-were in Haiti that something bad was coming. We now know it was to no avail.

“Cruel and incomprehensible?” Sorry, Mr. President, but we demand more from a guy who spent part of his life in volcanic Hawaii.

Fortunately, the United States isn’t defined by such comments.

After learning of the tragedy, Americans promptly lined up to give money and blood, supply food and clothing, pay for medicine and offer whatever emotional support they could.

So many offered so much help that aviation officials prohibited aircraft from landing in Haiti Thursday, citing their inability to land because there were too many craft on the ground there.

Obviously, it’s a big job and it will only grow more difficult in the foreseeable future. With luck, the comments of three prominent Americans won’t get in the way of the rescue work.

Haven’t Haitians suffered enough?

Find this article at:
http://www.gjsentinel.com/opin/content/ ... olumn.html

[Corlyss_D]

She obviously knows what she's talking about.

Only if Abs is a practitioner, which I seriously doubt.

[absinthe]

My/our worst fears have been confirmed: Leogane has been as-good-as razed to the ground including the one hospital they have, the Hopital Ste Croix. Jacmel has had it. Roads between these towns and P-a-P are impassable. So disheartening, depressing.

Don't worry about Obama's words - his heart is in the right place. More than our Gordon Clown who finds the events "rather worrying". We know he only expressed that much as a social expectation while really he's trying to save his skin.

You need to look back into the history of Hispaniola to find out why Dominica has fared a little better than Haiti. The Western response to a black republic was not exactly positive. Dessalines did his best but in trying to get a Haitian economy started he was forced to adopt measures that the populace thought was too close to their former slavery, hence his assassination.

[living_stradivarius]

BTW, overpopulation is "what's killing California." Nobody wants to admit it...

And we know about California and earthquakes.

California's due for a massive earthquake soon according to seismologists and I just don't see anyone really taking it seriously or preparing for it.

[jbuck919]

BTW, overpopulation is "what's killing California." Nobody wants to admit it...

And we know about California and earthquakes.

California's due for a massive earthquake soon according to seismologists and I just don't see anyone really taking it seriously or preparing for it.

I perceive that like many college students you were perhaps in the state but not of it. It's my understanding that they've been preparing for it extensively for many years. Ordinary building codes will provide a US city with more protection than Haiti, and for a long time now California has both been enforcing more stringent codes, for large buildings anyway, and retro-fitting many older buildings.

The only way for a California earthquake not to be a major disaster is for people to stop living there. Short of that, people do what they can.

[RebLem]

BTW, overpopulation is "what's killing California." Nobody wants to admit it...

And we know about California and earthquakes.

California's due for a massive earthquake soon according to seismologists and I just don't see anyone really taking it seriously or preparing for it.

I perceive that like many college students you were perhaps in the state but not of it. It's my understanding that they've been preparing for it extensively for many years. Ordinary building codes will provide a US city with more protection than Haiti, and for a long time now California has both been enforcing more stringent codes, for large buildings anyway, and retro-fitting many older buildings.

The only way for a California earthquake not to be a major disaster is for people to stop living there. Short of that, people do what they can.

They might try not building nuclear power plants atop fault lines, like they did with the Diablo Canyon plant.

[Dennis Spath]

Corlyss, I think we've managed to make you paranoid about conservative issues. Robertson
made an idiotic remark and should be chastised for it, not because he is a conservative
preacher. Unfortunatley he has a huge following and some of those people are going to
believe his tripe and not do what they can to help devastated Haiti.

--------------

And therein lies the truth. Robertson's statement is no doubt
calculated to divert the donations of his flock to his own coffers
rather than where it is most needed - in Haiti.

And yet Robertson had the guts to provide a link for "food relief" donations for Haiti on his 700 Club web site....engaged in some verbal handwringing while recounting the "news" on his morning show broadcast here in Texas. This is the same Pat Robertson whose 700 Club operation has had problems in the past accounting for million in expenses....his corporate jet....etc.

[IcedNote]

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/01/sa ... _robe.html

A Minneapolis Star-Tribune reader named Lily Coyle drafted the perfect answer to Pat Robertson's Haiti hate-speech earlier this week. It's almost enough to make the Bad Thoughts of the Bad Things we want to happen to Pat Robertson stop running on a constant Bad Loop in our head. And, as Elizabeth Spiers points out on her blog, it's What Mark Twain Would Do!):


Dear Pat Robertson,

I know that you know that all press is good press, so I appreciate the shout-out. And you make God look like a big mean bully who kicks people when they are down, so I'm all over that action. But when you say that Haiti has made a pact with me, it is totally humiliating. I may be evil incarnate, but I'm no welcher. The way you put it, making a deal with me leaves folks desperate and impoverished.

Sure, in the afterlife, but when I strike bargains with people, they first get something here on earth -- glamour, beauty, talent, wealth, fame, glory, a golden fiddle. Those Haitians have nothing, and I mean nothing. And that was before the earthquake. Haven't you seen "Crossroads"? Or "Damn Yankees"? If I had a thing going with Haiti, there'd be lots of banks, skyscrapers, SUVs, exclusive night clubs, Botox -- that kind of thing. An 80 percent poverty rate is so not my style. Nothing against it -- I'm just saying: Not how I roll.

You're doing great work, Pat, and I don't want to clip your wings -- just, come on, you're making me look bad. And not the good kind of bad. Keep blaming God. That's working. But leave me out of it, please. Or we may need to renegotiate your own contract.

Best, Satan

LILY COYLE, MINNEAPOLIS


-=-=-=-=-



-G

[Corlyss_D]

And yet Robertson had the guts to provide a link for "food relief" donations for Haiti on his 700 Club web site....engaged in some verbal handwringing while recounting the "news" on his morning show broadcast here in Texas.

He's done a lot of charitable things. Which is more important: what he says, or what he does? The comment is a sideshow seized up on by a Dem/Left being battered from pillar to post by voter outrage. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[absinthe]

Apparently this utter drivel is going to feature in at least one Sunday paper. It seems determined to push this blasted evangelical view that African religions are evil and godless - patent rubbish. African beliefs embrace a Supreme Being like most others. But He isn't the white haired, white skinned Christian guy done up in a gleaming cloak and on a golden throne.

It was heartening to see Mrs Clinton there with aid at last reaching those who need it.

[Brendan]

Apparently this utter drivel is going to feature in at least one Sunday papers. It seems determined to push this blasted evangelical view that African religions are evil and godless - patent rubbish. African beliefs embrace a Supreme Being like most others. But He isn't the white haired, white skinned Christian guy done up in a gleaming cloak and on a golden throne.

It was heartening to see Mrs Clinton there with aid at last reaching those who need it.

Where do you get your ideas about Christian theology?

From the Mystical Theology:

CHAPTER IV

That it that is the pre-eminent Cause of all things sensibly perceived is not itself any of those things.

We therefore maintain that the universal and transcendent Cause of all things is neither without being nor without life, nor without reason or intelligence; nor is it a body, nor has it form or shape, quality, quantity or weight; nor has it any localized, visible or tangible existence; it is not sensible or perceptible; nor is it subject to any disorder or in ordination nor influenced by any earthly passion; neither is it rendered impotent through the effects of material causes and events; it needs no light; it suffers no change, corruption, division, privation or flux; none of these things can either be identified with or attributed unto it.

CHAPTER V

That it that is the pre-eminent Cause of all things intelligibly perceived is not itself any of those things.

Again, ascending yet higher, we maintain that it is neither soul nor intellect; nor has it imagination, opinion reason or understanding; nor can it be expressed or conceived, since it is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is it standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has it power nor is power, nor is light; neither does it live nor is it life; neither is it essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is it subject to intelligible contact; nor is it science nor truth, nor kingship nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is it spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation - free from every limitation and beyond them all.

[HoustonDavid]

Clip and paste it for us Absinthe, with proper attribution, of course. Love to have something
else to say about the fatuous, self-serving dolt. He's the kind of preacher that gives real
Christianity a bad name. There are a lot of good Christians (and others) down there where
they are following the path of true charity rather than raising money for their coffers.

Maybe you could also make an attempt to translate what Bendan is trying to tell us. At least
we could understand Pat Robertson.

[Brendan]

That God is beyond any and all human understanding, imagining and depiction (not a white guy in the sky)?

Fairly basic stuff, theologically speaking.

157. The contemplation of God is not effected by sight and hearing, nor is it comprehended by any of the customary perceptions of the mind. For no eye has seen, and no ear has heard, nor does it belong to those things which usually enter into the heart of man. He who would approach the knowledge of things sublime must first purify his manner of life from all sensual and irrational emotion. He must wash from his understanding every opinion derived from some preconception and withdraw himself from his customary intercourse with his own companion, that is, with his sense perceptions, which are, as it were, wedded to our nature as its companion. When he is so purified, then he assaults the mountain.
Gregory of Nyssa – The Life of Moses [trans. Ferguson, Everett and Malherbe, Abraham J., Paulist Press 1978 p93]

[Barry]

Apparently, it was the U.S. that doomed Haiti, at least if this Facebook post from an obviously left wing friend of a friend is to be believed:

"the test of any true american caring for haiti comes in 2-3 weeks when haitain refugees are going to want to with good reason come to the usa. our american sympathies, hearts and minds i fear are about to run very dry, very soon over the issue of haitian immigration. and 2-3wks from now is just the exact time that our united american sympathies ... See Moreneed to be amped up 10,000% higher than what they are right now. haiti is 1st and foremost under containment/occupation at the moment. & the humanitarian needs of haiti are secondary it seems even now. but awareness of the macro needs of haiti beyond the TV drama we now use to assuage our compassion/sympathy/empathy for a nation we have made and kept poor has to be kept focused and engaged beyond us containing the brown skinned persons of that nation to the dungeon of our handwringing need to move on and forget what this disaster reminds america about what we just dont ever want to fix there. "

The left has its morally twisted nut jobs too.

[Jean]

Pat Robertson, and others of his ilk, are charismatic conmen. They opportunistically grab any headline event and craft a way to use it to cement their relationship with followers, fuel the flames of discontent, and otherwise take personal advantage. I also am very skeptical of the % (if any) of the funds collected by him for charitable relief which actually makes it into the hands of the needy.

[HoustonDavid]

That God is beyond any and all human understanding, imagining and depiction (not a white guy in the sky)?

Fairly basic stuff, theologically speaking.

Now that's the translation I was asking Absinthe for Brendan. Glad to get it from the source of the quotations.
BTW, I agree. We sometimes catch a very feint glimpse in the way certain people behave in places like Haiti.

[Corlyss_D]

She obviously knows what she's talking about.

Abs don't want to answer my question. Either the comments are apologist spin straight out of a recruiting pamphlet, or they are based on personal knowledge. Enquiring minds want to know which.

[Corlyss_D]

This is the biggest load of rubbish I’ve read in ages.

Animal sacrifices are quite rare. One can never know what the bokors are up to but the expiration of a life is always because the spiritual power is transferred to some other spiritual purpose. Ordination into the Vodou priesthood usually entails a sacrifice; otherwise it would be an extreme ceremony of some kind. I have heard of a sacrifice at kanzos but most branches of Vodou wouldn't demand that.

Really hard to fathom a mind that can hold both of those thoughts. On the one hand a passionate denunciation of Robertson's remarks so infuriating, on the other and then on the other deliver a sympathetic defense of Santeria's animal sacrifices in the 21st century, a practice hardly limited to the one-off occasion or the unremarkable fowl. Must have something to do with the repeated attempts to find meaning in identifying with native populations wronged hundreds of years ago. Miniver Cheevy, born too late,/Scratched his head and kept on thinking;

ReligionDispatches
Animal Sacrifice and Sexuality in Santería
By Nick Street
Posted on September 22, 2009, Printed on January 16, 2010
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... tate/1848/

A recent federal court ruling cast an unusually sympathetic gaze on Santería, a family of Afro-Caribbean cultural and religious practices that most Americans learn about (or imagine they learn about) through its depiction in unsettling plotlines on crime shows like Law & Order and CSI: Miami.

But in José Merced v. City of Euless, the Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit ruled that Merced, a Santería priest in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, was acting within his Constitutional rights when he sacrificed goats and other animals as part of the ritual home-practice that accompanied him from Puerto Rico.

In fact, the court suggested that such Constitutional protections are especially important for “non-traditional” religions like Merced’s.

“There are more than 250,000 practitioners of Santería in the world,” the ruling states, “but only two Santeria temples, neither of which is in the continental United States. Thus, home sacrifice is not only the norm, but a crucial aspect of Santería, without which Santería would effectively cease to exist.”

What else should we understand about Santería? An interview with Salvador Vidal-Ortiz, a sociologist at American University who has studied the roles of gender and sexuality in Santería practices, reveals a tradition “deeply interwoven with discourses of freedom and liberation.”

When did you become interested in studying Santería?

The first drumming event I attended was in 2000. Since then, I’ve attended events where practitioners were being initiated, and annual celebrations of religious birthdays for longtime members. These events have generally taken place in private homes in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan; usually in basements prepared as religious sites for ceremony.

What attracted you to the tradition? Did you consider following the practices back to their Caribbean or African roots?

My research focus was here, in the U.S.—not elsewhere—because learning how these practices traveled was as important to me as the practice itself. Unlike Santería practice in other regions of the Western Hemisphere, practice in the U.S. includes people from many ethnic and racial groups. In fact, there are groups here, like Puerto Ricans, who take up forms of the practice more often associated with other groups, like Cubans.

Over the course of my work, I’ve redefined Santería as a religious-cultural practice, and not simply a religion, because of the links between diasporic aspects of African culture (Yoruba traditions in the case of Cuba, and overlapping or altogether different influences in the case of Brazil and other Latin American countries) as well as its syncretism with Catholic influences. I’m also interested in where and why the practice is either hidden or open. For example, even though it was ostracized at its inception when it was practiced by slaves centuries ago, Santería practice is not hidden in contemporary Cuba.

Have you chosen to engage in the practice yourself?

I am quite honest about the scope of my work in terms of “how far I would go” within Santería. I chose not to engage in ritual because I am not a Santero (a practitioner—most people use Santero [m.] or Santera [f.] to refer to initiated practitioners), but there is much more to the practice than its rituals.

What aspect of the practice beyond its rituals has most sustained your interest?

While most people might choose to study a movement like Santería because of their desire to learn about religious practice, I was initially intrigued by the space that I noticed was given to gay and lesbian practitioners. Even though Santería might be perceived as a haven for gays and lesbians in cultures that often provide few other spaces for them—and there are a large number of gay and lesbian practitioners in Santería—the practice itself is deeply interwoven with discourses of freedom and liberation, and power and oppression. This is why the main focus of my work now includes gays and lesbians and women of all sexual orientations.

So what have you learned over the course of your research?

I’ve interviewed women of all sexual orientations and gay and bisexual men who practice Santería. Some are initiated, some are not initiated, and they are from most walks of life. Some people had explored many religions, while others had always been Santería practitioners.

While Santería has opened up a space for gays and lesbians to participate, it has opened up a very different space for gay men than for lesbian women. Gay men are allowed to serve in some roles that are exclusive to men. I agree with Mary Ann Clark (author of Where Men Are Wives and Mothers Rule: Santería Ritual Practices and Their Gender Implications) that this gendered configuration of roles need not be seen as a hierarchy, and instead provokes new ways of thinking by redefining ritual power.

Although only men can become Babalawos (the highest Santería priest position, usually limited to men who are perceived or presumed to be heterosexual), all practitioners become “wives” when they are initiated. As “newborns,” these initiates become the wife of the deity or Orisha that “claimed their head.” This deity will become the focus of the initiate’s worship, and the “wifely” relationship to the deity is the same for all practitioners, regardless of gender.

Can you say more about how the wife-dynamic empowers women and non-heterosexual men?

Ritual possession allows practitioners to experience deity-presence, and everyone benefits when others are possessed, because the possessing Orisha speaks to everyone present at the ritual. Members of a given religious house feel proud whenever there is a lot of deity-presence at one of their events. In possession, a practitioner is “mounted” by the deity—an expression that has obvious gendered and sexual implications, which are generally recognized by practitioners. And, to speak to your question, non-heterosexual men and women of all sexual orientations tend to be possessed more often than their straight counterparts. So their presence is highly valued.

Finally, and more broadly, what do you make of popular notions about Santería in the United States? And what’s your take on recent court decisions that recognize and protect the religiosity of the practice?

Generally speaking, when we are talking about racial and ethnic minorities, the United States’ racial (and racist) system tends to find much of what is non-white “suspicious.” That’s why Santería continues to be categorized as a cult by some, and why the media usually frame practitioners as somehow “criminal” in the coverage we see in the news.

That tendency is mirrored in entertainment media. For at least the past two decades, portrayals of Santería practitioners in movies and television shows have resisted the opportunity to represent them as religious people and focused instead on Santería as a hypersexual space, recalling earlier representations of Africans as savages.

That does seem to be changing, at least incrementally. The recent Texas lawsuit acknowledged the religiosity of the practice: José Merced, a Puerto Rican Santería priest, retained the right of animal sacrifice because the court saw the link to religious freedom. Regardless of how one might feel about animal sacrifice (for consumption or under regulations that maintain public health standards in the handling of food), this religious-cultural practice has ritual elements that one ought to respect, in the very same way most of us respect Judeo-Christian religious practice.

Salvador Vidal-Ortiz is Assistant Professor of Sociology at American University in Washington, DC. Among his recent work is the co-edited special issue of the journal Sexualities: Studies in Culture and Society on the topic of “Retheorizing Homophobias” (with Karl Bryant) and a co-edited book, The Sexuality of Migration: Border Crossings and Mexican Immigrant Men (with Nancy Naples and based on the work by late Lionel Cantú), published by NYU Press.

Nick Street, LGBT contributing editor for Religion Dispatches, studied Christian ethics at Oberlin College and the Candler School of Theology at Emory University. After a decade as a religion editor in the world of academic publishing, he returned to graduate school at the University of Southern California, where he completed an M.A. in print journalism.

His writing has appeared in Search, Los Angeles Times, LA Weekly, The Jewish Journal and The Revealer. He is also an ordained Buddhist priest at the Hazy Moon Zen Center in Los Angeles.
© 2010 Religion Dispatches. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... tate/1848/

[absinthe]

This is the biggest load of rubbish I’ve read in ages.

Animal sacrifices are quite rare. One can never know what the bokors are up to but the expiration of a life is always because the spiritual power is transferred to some other spiritual purpose. Ordination into the Vodou priesthood usually entails a sacrifice; otherwise it would be an extreme ceremony of some kind. I have heard of a sacrifice at kanzos but most branches of Vodou wouldn't demand that.

Really hard to fathom a mind that can hold both of those thoughts. On the one hand a passionate denunciation of Robertson's remarks so infuriating, on the other and then on the other deliver a sympathetic defense of Santeria's animal sacrifices in the 21st century,

Why? They're different subjects. Robertson is a misinformed do-gooder who might thump his neurotic viewpoint into others. What has that to do with the practices of other religions? I can't comment on Santeria which developed independently in Cuba from the Uruba so I understand except I know they regard killing any animal as sacrifice even for just eating. For the spiritually minded that's probably a bit better than picking the indifferently killed output of an abattoir off a supermarket shelf.

Santeria isn't Vodou.

[Daisy]

It was the Christians who spread the bad word that led to Vodou’s bad reputation.

Gee. I thought it was the superstition, magic spells, and animal sacrifices that gave Voodoo a bad rap.

They blighted any chance of Haiti to develop its own way of life, let alone economy.

Interesting. And here I thought it was the usual mess the French leave behind them when they vacate their colonies.

Voodoo is a tribal religion from Africa that has very little to do with Christianity, O my Dear Anti-Christian, always ready to blame Christians for everything bad you can think of. Voodoo is much older than Christianity, and in case you didn't know it, makes a practice of summoning up spirits and demons. Whether you believe they can do it or not makes no difference, because the Haitians believe it. If they believe there is a curse on their island, then as far as they're concerned, there is a curse. And as you think, so you shall be.

Have you heard of the "zombification" of condemned prisoners on Haiti? No? Well, they sentence a man to death, bury him alive for a day, then dig him up and he's now a "zombie", and is left to spend the rest of his days in slave labor in unimaginable conditions. There are many zombie traditions similar to this in Haiti, but do you REALLY believe Christians had anything to do with this? And yes, this kind of mind-control over people IS Satanic. It is purely evil. You don't have to be a Christian to see that.

But speaking of curses, for the record, "ignorant, superstitious" Haitian peasants are not alone in believing in curses. Ever heard of baseball curses? Thousands of "educated, smarter, more enlightened" baseball fans believed that the vengeful spirit of Babe Ruth (!!!) put a curse on the Boston Red Sox that wasn't lifted for more than 80 years! Indian Medicine Men and Witch Doctors were called out over the years to try and lift the curse. But I suppose YOU believe that Christians put them up to it so they could laugh at them. Yeah, they once had a Catholic priest try to exorcise the Curse, but that doesn't sound like he was laughing.

[Corlyss_D]

Why? They're different subjects. Santeria isn't Vodou.

Santeria is the sanitized name for Voodoo. Both are versions of the same belief system originating in West and Central Africa. To say they are different is like saying that Catholicism and Protestantism are different. Their essential elements are the same, and involve animal sacrifice as significant parts of their rituals.

[Daisy]

Apparently this utter drivel is going to feature in at least one Sunday paper. It seems determined to push this blasted evangelical view that African religions are evil and godless - patent rubbish. African beliefs embrace a Supreme Being like most others. But He isn't the white haired, white skinned Christian guy done up in a gleaming cloak and on a golden throne.

The fact remains that voodoo, as practiced in Haiti and in even in some parts of America, is a cult within the Catholic Church ("cult" in the original meaning of the word. Look it up for yourself) that is based on tribal religions that lean heavily on the worship of spirits and demons. Practioners freely admity this. While they practice certain forms of Catholicism, the emphasis is still on the spirits and demons. It has reached into certain parts of the New Age community as well, and is associated with magic, fortune telling, and curses. And if you are inclined to believe in curses against your land or your people, by a pact with a demon or evil spirit or whatever, you can create a self-fullfilling prophecy. These tribal religions are not "godless', but their concept of divinity, in such a case as this, is very self-destructive.

Seems to me that your observations on Christians are pretty confused, and I'm afraid you're not alone. You'll notice that the Haitians concepts of Christianity are confused. However, I'll say this - they are as devout as they can be in the things they do believe. That's why they've talked themselves into generations of poverty and corruption, because they really do believe a curse is out there.

[jbuck919]

The fact remains that voodoo, as practiced in Haiti and in even in some parts of America, is a cult within the Catholic Church ("cult" in the original meaning of the word.

To be exact, Daisy, many Catholics in Latin America practice other religions (voodoo or whatever you want to call it, or various forms of spiritualism) in conjunction with their Catholicism. Ordinary people do not much care about the contradictions presented by such dual practice, which is actually denounced by the official Church, though in the populations involved this has about the same effect as denouncing artificial contraception in the First World.

[absinthe]

Why? They're different subjects. Santeria isn't Vodou.

Santeria is the sanitized name for Voodoo. Both are versions of the same belief system originating in West and Central Africa. To say they are different is like saying that Catholicism and Protestantism are different. Their essential elements are the same, and involve animal sacrifice as significant parts of their rituals.

I don't agree. But I don't want to get into a prolonged exchange. Even the main Voodoo (as you like to call it that) variations in towns like P-a-P, Jacmel, generally south, can hardly be compared: sure they have similar root ideas but the practices and rituals are very different. Santeria came from the Nigerian Uruba people. Voodoo in Haiti is strongly influenced by the Fon/Dahomey from Benin.

As I tried to explain Santeria developed independently in Cuba.

But if you want to believe they're the same, fine...

[absinthe]

Again, as in my previous post, I don't really want to get into a long exchange but as I did comment on the atrocities Christians carried out on African slaves (about which you can read in contemporary reports should you be interested) I have the following to say.

Apparently this utter drivel is going to feature in at least one Sunday paper. It seems determined to push this blasted evangelical view that African religions are evil and godless - patent rubbish. African beliefs embrace a Supreme Being like most others. But He isn't the white haired, white skinned Christian guy done up in a gleaming cloak and on a golden throne.

The fact remains that voodoo, as practiced in Haiti and in even in some parts of America, is a cult within the Catholic Church ("cult" in the original meaning of the word. Look it up for yourself) that is based on tribal religions that lean heavily on the worship of spirits and demons. Practioners freely admit this.

Are you Haitian? Asking because the Haitian friends I have would deny this. It's a very Hollywood view of Vodou with all the baggage like sticking pins in straw dolls, etc! I think you'll find the roots of Vodou - the African belief systems go back way 1000s of years before the Catholics and their Caucasian God were thought of. They conflued into Vodou as a result of a means of communication (I mentioned in a post near the top, slaves were selected on the basis that few could communicate).

The Catholics tumbled what the Africans were up to, pronounced their practices evil (as they did anything black at that time - it appeased their consciences) and meted out some pretty horrible punishments on those caught. Torture, flaying or beheading - that sort of thing. Unfortunately, the Africans recognised symbols that the Christians nicked from them (more precisely, from Egypt but the Egyptians lifted them from the African faiths) - I named a couple of them up there.
Then they found they could align many of their Lwas/Lois with the statues of Catholic saints in the churches. Papa Legbha lined up with St. Peter; Erzuli/Zili with Our Lady; etc. This let them practice Vodou without so much suspicion - the Clergy thought they were converting to Xtianity. It also allowed a few priests to initiate into Vodou - for whatever motives I don't know but I expect it involved congress with African women. It ended up with the mess: Some catholics entered Vodou some Vodouisants entered the church.

Vodou remained loosely illegal until Papa Doc finally allowed its full recognition and legality.

It is an axiom that a Catholic priest or higher, if ordained into Vodou is considered a particularly powerful Hougan, especially on the more left-hand side. (A sorcerer is said able to "work with both hands" Blimey, I'll have to stop that line of explanation. But there is an esoteric side to Vodou, quite unlike the traditional social Vodou.

Vodouists don't worship spirits and demons. They respect the spirits of the Dead (particularly their Ancestors) who are looked after by a class of Loa called the Ghédé(s), the familiar Baron Cimière, Baron Samdhi and Baron La Croix, who are a jovial, cynical lot. You'll have seen them in Hollywood films because of their connection with the dead. They also keep all the knowledge of the dead. If you wished to serve them, you leave a little rum, some cigaretts maybe, money. Vodouists serve their deities (not quite the right translation - there isn't one) the Loa, in their many ways: Ritual, offerings off food alcohol perfume, flowers or tobacco. Their followers petition for help. No Loa requires animal sacrifice though a little, say, chicken meat left for Damballah or Simbi would be appreciated.

While they practice certain forms of Catholicism, the emphasis is still on the spirits and demons. It has reached into certain parts of the New Age community as well, and is associated with magic, fortune telling, and curses.

All religions curse. You should read how writers of certain psalms bring curses down on their enemies. But yes, curses are formulated in Voodoo and prepared by the V. priests. I can't think of them making packts - that isn't the way the spirits /Loas work. But the rites and Vovou solutions to problems are many, more than be mentioned here

And if you are inclined to believe in curses against your land or your people, by a pact with a demon or evil spirit or whatever, you can create a self-fullfilling prophecy. These tribal religions are not "godless', but their concept of divinity, in such a case as this, is very self-destructive.

Not in the least. The vodou supreme being is Le Grand Chemin, the Grand Legbha who is out of reach of earthans and their supplications. He is indifferent to the ways of earthians! The only time Vodou Loa will do evil is when the sorcerer asks them to do that type of work. Some of the Ghédés are capable of destructive work if commissioned - the Vodouist has to be able to pay for the service.

your observations on Christians are pretty confused, and I'm afraid you're not alone. You'll notice that the Haitians concepts of Christianity are confused. However, I'll say this - they are as devout as they can be in the things they do believe. That's why they've talked themselves into generations of poverty and corruption, because they really do believe a curse is out there.

Hah! My observations on Christianity are definitely confused by the plethora of variations, proliferating recently into splinter groups to accept homosexual and female priests which does make one wonder! The poverty suffered by Haitians is more historical and corruption - makes an interesting story in itself.

So, thanks for the challenge and I hope I acquitted myself a little at least.

[absinthe]

Have you heard of the "zombification" of condemned prisoners on Haiti? No? Well, they sentence a man to death, bury him alive for a day, then dig him up and he's now a "zombie", and is left to spend the rest of his days in slave labor in unimaginable conditions. There are many zombie traditions similar to this in Haiti, but do you REALLY believe Christians had anything to do with this? And yes, this kind of mind-control over people IS Satanic. It is purely evil. You don't have to be a Christian to see that.

Zombification has nothing to do with Christianity. Until they lost their power, Christians would torture heathens into submission. And until recently, most Christian countries supported the death sentence.
Zombification is rarely used in Vodou justice as it required the work of a bokor who will prepare a powder or drink for the victim but need a very clear case to use this punishment. Not something I can talk about.

Except, another little story that reminds me of hundreds of people I meet in the course of work who, by the Haitian definition would place them in the zombi category! A zombi is a person with neither ti bon ange or gro bon ange and, as they say in Haiti, without these who will drive your life for you? In other words, people who lose the will to think or do anything for themselves!

[Daisy]

Have you heard of the "zombification" of condemned prisoners on Haiti? No? Well, they sentence a man to death, bury him alive for a day, then dig him up and he's now a "zombie", and is left to spend the rest of his days in slave labor in unimaginable conditions. There are many zombie traditions similar to this in Haiti, but do you REALLY believe Christians had anything to do with this? And yes, this kind of mind-control over people IS Satanic. It is purely evil. You don't have to be a Christian to see that.

Zombification has nothing to do with Christianity. Until they lost their power, Christians would torture heathens into submission. And until recently, most Christian countries supported the death sentence. Zombification is rarely used in Vodou justice as it required the work of a bokor who will prepare a powder or drink for the victim but need a very clear case to use this punishment. Not something I can talk about.

What on earth are you saying? You say that zombification has nothing to do with Christianity, then you turn right around and say Christians were the ones who tortured heathens into submission. The 16th century is a long way from today, and you seem to be yet another person who thinks anything that calls itself "christian" in fact IS Christian. Belonging to a church and following the man-made rules which in fact have little or nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus does not, nor has it ever, been the real definition of a Christian, so please discuss Christians when you really know who they are and not who you think they are.

And zombification is still an evil practice.

[absinthe]

Daisy, I replied - it's on the next page.

Cheers.

[Brendan]

You're right about "Christians": few actually follow the teachings of Jesus as reported in the NT and particularly Matthew. In those days church meant the congregation, not a building. The ritual and ceremonial dress of the Roman church are derived from the solar-phallic rituals of Egypy.

Now that I would like to investigate! Any source material for the claim?

[absinthe]

It's as plain as daylight. Just look. Follow through the Osiris "cult".

BTW, I meant Egypt, not Egypy! So don't go looking for those weird practices in Egypy!