Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

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SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:37 pm

Jean wrote:I suspect few people in the US understand what the UN does and what the issues & votes have been over the years. The UN is political. The voting is driven by political agenda.

Providing aid to Haitians during this catatrophe is humanitarian. Politics has, or should have, no place in the discussion.

I find it really very sad and very revealing that only a prominant person from Israel chooses to put the two events together in an attempt to claim moral superiority.

You see?

You’re perfectly permitted to state your opinion , and no one shuts your mouth.

From now on, please stop kvetching about how no one lets you say what you want.

You have less then 30 posts , and more then half of them are directed at me and your kvetching of how you don’t have any chance to say what you want.

From now on, you say what you feel, state your opinion, and stop whining.

Madame
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by Madame » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:57 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
Jean wrote:I suspect few people in the US understand what the UN does and what the issues & votes have been over the years. The UN is political. The voting is driven by political agenda.

Providing aid to Haitians during this catatrophe is humanitarian. Politics has, or should have, no place in the discussion.

I find it really very sad and very revealing that only a prominant person from Israel chooses to put the two events together in an attempt to claim moral superiority.

You see?

You’re perfectly permitted to state your opinion , and no one shuts your mouth.

From now on, please stop kvetching about how no one lets you say what you want.

You have less then 30 posts , and more then half of them are directed at me and your kvetching of how you don’t have any chance to say what you want.

From now on, you say what you feel, state your opinion, and stop whining.

I can't decide whether this is farce or a really bad script. :? :?

Corlyss_D
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:06 am

SaulChanukah wrote:No one must join the conversation.
Folks, hear him now and believe him now. :lol:
Corlyss
Contessa d'EM, a carbon-based life form

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:41 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:No one must join the conversation.
Folks, hear him now and believe him now. :lol:
They can't, would the bees ever stop buzzing around flowers?

Impossible.

living_stradivarius
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:03 am

Sounds like a nursery in here. I think the following will officially end this thread. If not, well you'll make yourself look like one:

Image
Image

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:41 am

living_stradivarius wrote:Sounds like a nursery in here. I think the following will officially end this thread. If not, well you'll make yourself look like one:

Image
I have always wanted to know how your mom looked like.

Thanks.

Madame
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by Madame » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:37 am

living_stradivarius wrote:Sounds like a nursery in here. I think the following will officially end this thread. If not, well you'll make yourself look like one:
KEWL! Much better than a litter box! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ralph
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by Ralph » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:09 pm

London - Chief Rabbi Issues Haiti Prayer To Be Recited This Shabbas
Published on: January 19th, 2010 at 09:03 PM
News Source: The JC
Last updated on:

London - The Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks has issued a special prayer for the victims of the Haiti earthquake, a disaster which is thought to have killed more than 200,000 people.

He has distributed the prayer to all synagogues to be said this Shabbat and has urged the Jewish community to become involved in fundraising for the stricken country.

The Chief Rabbi said he was “deeply distressed at the tragic loss of life and damage suffered by the people of Haiti.”

He added: “It has been estimated that every single family on the island has lost either a family member or a close friend.

“Not only are they dealing with the shock, anguish and physical danger that the earthquake itself brought, but are having to cope with the challenge to survive at a time when the infrastructure around them is destroyed.”

THE CHIEF RABBI’S PRAYER FOR HAITI

Adon ha-olamim

Sovereign of the universe,

We join our prayers to the prayers of others throughout the world, for the victims of the earthquake which brought destruction and disaster to Haiti and took so many lives.

Almighty God, we beseech you, send comfort to the bereaved, and healing to the injured.

Be with those who are engaged in the work of rescue. Grant strength to those who see to the needs of the injured and sick, give shelter to the homeless, and who provide sustenance to those in need.

Almighty God, we recognise how insignificant we are, and how helpless in the face of nature when its full power is unleashed.

Open our hearts in prayer and our hands in generosity, so that by our actions we may bring comfort, healing and support.

Help us now and all humanity as we seek to do what we can by helping people reconstruct their broken lives.

Ken Yehi Ratzon, ve-nomar.

Amen.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:22 pm

Ralph wrote:London - Chief Rabbi Issues Haiti Prayer To Be Recited This Shabbas
Published on: January 19th, 2010 at 09:03 PM
News Source: The JC
Last updated on:

London - The Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks has issued a special prayer for the victims of the Haiti earthquake, a disaster which is thought to have killed more than 200,000 people.

He has distributed the prayer to all synagogues to be said this Shabbat and has urged the Jewish community to become involved in fundraising for the stricken country.

The Chief Rabbi said he was “deeply distressed at the tragic loss of life and damage suffered by the people of Haiti.”

He added: “It has been estimated that every single family on the island has lost either a family member or a close friend.

“Not only are they dealing with the shock, anguish and physical danger that the earthquake itself brought, but are having to cope with the challenge to survive at a time when the infrastructure around them is destroyed.”

THE CHIEF RABBI’S PRAYER FOR HAITI

Adon ha-olamim

Sovereign of the universe,

We join our prayers to the prayers of others throughout the world, for the victims of the earthquake which brought destruction and disaster to Haiti and took so many lives.

Almighty God, we beseech you, send comfort to the bereaved, and healing to the injured.

Be with those who are engaged in the work of rescue. Grant strength to those who see to the needs of the injured and sick, give shelter to the homeless, and who provide sustenance to those in need.

Almighty God, we recognise how insignificant we are, and how helpless in the face of nature when its full power is unleashed.

Open our hearts in prayer and our hands in generosity, so that by our actions we may bring comfort, healing and support.

Help us now and all humanity as we seek to do what we can by helping people reconstruct their broken lives.

Ken Yehi Ratzon, ve-nomar.

Amen.

How many times I have to say that I am for helping Haiti, and that it was a great tragedy?

The discussion here was whether Haiti deserves Jewish assistance or not, not whether we should help them or not.

I believe that we should help even though they don't deserve our help because their representatives voted in with our enemies against us.

This is the difference.

I totally agree with the Rabbi and believe that the prayer is wonderful.

MarkC
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by MarkC » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:32 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:......I believe that we should help even though they don't deserve our help because their representatives voted in with our enemies against us.

This is the difference.....
Not much.
Speaking as someone who is 90% your ally, I hope you will try to realize that many people would find that offensive and distasteful.

And let me say (as though it will do any good) :lol: that I hope you will THINK about this -- I mean think about it until you sort of get it.
Reject it if you like, but please get it.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:52 pm

MarkC wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:......I believe that we should help even though they don't deserve our help because their representatives voted in with our enemies against us.

This is the difference.....
Not much.
Speaking as someone who is 90% your ally, I hope you will try to realize that many people would find that offensive and distasteful.

And let me say (as though it will do any good) :lol: that I hope you will THINK about this -- I mean think about it until you sort of get it.
Reject it if you like, but please get it.
It a huge difference, trust me.

MarkC
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by MarkC » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:56 pm

Trust ME -- it is offensive and distasteful.

Saul, I know you didn't ask me to 'help,' but I'm trying to help.
I'm trying to help you be more effective in what you try so hard to do.
As I said, reject it if you'd like, but please try to understand it.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:02 pm

MarkC wrote:Trust ME -- it is offensive and distasteful.

Saul, I know you didn't ask me to 'help,' but I'm trying to help.
I'm trying to help you be more effective in what you try so hard to do.
As I said, reject it if you'd like, but please try to understand it.
Some opinions will be considered offensive and distasteful by some, and for others it could be the truth, and common sense.

As I pointed out before, if you stand with our enemies who want to do us harm, don’t expect us to come to your aid, we are not obligated to help those who support our enemies and vote in against us. It makes perfect sense, the fact that you consider it to be offensive and distasteful changes nothing. For me, it makes perfect sense.

If you want to deserve our help, don’t support our enemies!

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:57 am

The word "deserve" implies entitlement, and I think that's the sticking point for Saul. It's not a matter of entitlement; it's a matter of humanity. The question really should be, "Should you provide ordinary folk who live in a country whose government is hostile to your own, relief from disaster?" History has answered the question in the affirmative. Germany and Japan were rebuilt by the Allies after WW2; Israel supplied electricity and desalinated water to Gaza during 4 years of intensive rocket bombardment by Hamas; belligerent armies afford medical treatment to one another on the battlefield. A recent example was the 2nd Lebanon War, where wounded Hizbullah combatants were treated on the battlefield by Israeli medics and then evacuated to Israeli hospitals. If there are myriad examples throughout history of disaster relief being afforded belligerents by one another during battle, why is there even a question as to whether ordinary, non-belligerent people should be afforded disaster relief if you are in a position to help?

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 am

pizza wrote:The word "deserve" implies entitlement, and I think that's the sticking point for Saul. It's not a matter of entitlement; it's a matter of humanity. The question really should be, "Should you provide ordinary folk who live in a country whose government is hostile to your own, relief from disaster?" History has answered the question in the affirmative. Germany and Japan were rebuilt by the Allies after WW2; Israel supplied electricity and desalinated water to Gaza during 4 years of intensive rocket bombardment by Hamas; belligerent armies afford medical treatment to one another on the battlefield. A recent example was the 2nd Lebanon War, where wounded Hizbullah combatants were treated on the battlefield by Israeli medics and then evacuated to Israeli hospitals. If there are myriad examples throughout history of disaster relief being afforded belligerents by one another during battle, why is there even a question as to whether ordinary, non-belligerent people should be afforded disaster relief if you are in a position to help?
In WWII when the Germans murdered six million Jews what kind of humanity did the Muslims and Arabs show to us?

They didn’t send one penny to help in any way.

On top of that they were partially responsible for the murder for the Mufti of Jerusalem had met with Hitler and told him to go a head and 'murder all the Jews we are here to help you'.

Why then the Jews are responsible or morally obligated to help Muslims or Arabs in any way shape or form?

Second point:

The situation in Gaza is even more absurd, the people there publicly call for the destruction of the State of Israel and the murder of all the Jews. They are also waiting to go to 'heaven' for doing just that and enjoy unlimited sex with 72 virgin rats. Their disgusting and wicked parents send their children to suicide kindergarten schools where they teach them that murdering a Jew is the most noble of acts.

The actions of the Israel government by sending these enemies in Gaza assistance, stands in opposition to the authentic Jewish position. They are a secular government and they don't represent the Jewish position.

Someone had asked me what would I do if I was the PM of Israel?

Well, I will tell the Arabs in Gaza and in the West Bank:

You have 48 hours to stop all attacks, incitement and terror on the State of Israel.
After that time goes by and you still continue with your terrorist activities, I will order 10.000 busses and will put all of them in and send them away from Israel for good.
I will put them in the border , and let their Arab brothers from the 22 countries come to the help of their own brothers. Jews are not obligated to help those who openly call for our murder and destruction.

As for your example that Germany and Japan were rebuilt by the Allies after WW2, I will say this.

The Allies helped rebuilt Germany and Japan only after they defeated them in war, and Germany was divided between America and Russia.
They didn’t help their enemies while they were fighting and were on each other's necks. I'm also willing to give a helping hand , only after Israel defeats its enemies and restores peace and quiet and gets back Gaza. I have no problem whatsoever with that.

So to be clear, my position is, the Jews don't have to help those who never showed humanity to them, and in fact work for their destruction, and are openly identifying themselves as the enemies of the Jewish people. We don't have to show humanity to those who vote with our enemies who seek our destruction.

We help Haiti, not because they deserve it, but because Israel and the Jews are good and are generous.

Make this point crystal clear:

If you side with our enemies who seek our destruction, don’t expect our assistance.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:12 am

You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:13 am

pizza wrote:You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.
Again,

Have I not said that we should help regardless?

How many times I have to say it, Pizza?

Yes, I have read 'The Path of the Just'. The question is not whether we should help them or not, it is whether Haiti deserves our help.
My position is that if they side with our enemies and vote in against us, they don’t deserve our help. But we should help them, whether they deserve it or not.

Is this clear now?

When it comes to Hamas, I don't believe there is a single religious authentic Rabbinic authority who would even suggest to send these murderers and sworn enemies any kind of assistance.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:26 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.
SaulChanukah wrote:Again,

Have I not said that we should help regardless?
Yes, and so the word "regardless" defines our mandatory obligation to do the right thing by helping people in need of help. Thus, the word "deserves" is a matter of opinion and meaningless.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:42 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.
SaulChanukah wrote:Again,

Have I not said that we should help regardless?
Yes, and so the word "regardless" defines our mandatory obligation to do the right thing by helping people in need of help. Thus, the word "deserves" is a matter of opinion and meaningless.
Well, there is a deep difference between whether you get something because you deserve it, or you get it as a present.
Why do you think we have freedom of choice? its because God wants us to earn his goodness through our choices, because we choose good over evil.

That’s why we are not robots.

pizza
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:49 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.
SaulChanukah wrote:Again,

Have I not said that we should help regardless?
Yes, and so the word "regardless" defines our mandatory obligation to do the right thing by helping people in need of help. Thus, the word "deserves" is a matter of opinion and meaningless.
Well, there is a deep difference between whether you get something because you deserve it, or you get it as a present.
Why do you think we have freedom of choice? its because God wants us to earn his goodness through our choices, because we choose good over evil.

That’s why we are not robots.
Since the Halacha is that we help people because they are in need of help regardless, then by following the Halacha, we choose good instead of evil.

More to the point of this discussion, if an earthquake of similar proportion and magnitude occurred in Gaza, you can bet your last agura that ZAKA would respond within minutes, Israeli medical teams and supplies would be in the field before the news hit the media, Israeli hospitals would be flooded with patients, and no rabbi of any stature would object.

Ralph
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by Ralph » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:18 pm

Port-au-Prince - Israel to Send 100 Policemen to Patrol Streets of Haiti
Published on: January 20th, 2010 at 10:52 AM
News Source: VIN News By B. Slobodkin

Port-au-Prince - After sending medical teams and search-and-rescue teams, Israel will now be dispatching policemen as well, according to a report by Israeli newspaper Maariv.

Following a request from the UN Secretary-General, Israel Police is now preparing to send 100 policemen to Haiti to join the UN force in maintaining order in the area struck by last week’s devastating earthquake.

This morning (Wednesday) UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon contacted the Israeli Foreign Ministry asking that Israel take part in efforts to restore order in the country, where the streets have become battle zones for gangs and looters trying to lay their hands on food.

Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman asked Interior Security Minister Yitzchak Aharonovitch, to put a police force on standby. Aharonovitch then notified Police Commander Insp.-Gen. Dudi Cohen of the situation.

Some ten Israel Police forensics experts are currently deployed in Haiti along with the rescue team dispatched by Central Command, primarily to identify the bodies of the victims.

On Tuesday the Israeli Foreign Ministry received a request from its counterpart in the Netherlands asking that Israeli policemen currently in Haiti assist with the identification of 17 Dutch nationals whose bodies were recovered from a collapsed hotel.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:32 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.
SaulChanukah wrote:Again,

Have I not said that we should help regardless?
Yes, and so the word "regardless" defines our mandatory obligation to do the right thing by helping people in need of help. Thus, the word "deserves" is a matter of opinion and meaningless.
Well, there is a deep difference between whether you get something because you deserve it, or you get it as a present.
Why do you think we have freedom of choice? its because God wants us to earn his goodness through our choices, because we choose good over evil.

That’s why we are not robots.
Since the Halacha is that we help people because they are in need of help regardless, then by following the Halacha, we choose good instead of evil.

More to the point of this discussion, if an earthquake of similar proportion and magnitude occurred in Gaza, you can bet your last agura that ZAKA would respond within minutes, Israeli medical teams and supplies would be in the field before the news hit the media, Israeli hospitals would be flooded with patients, and no rabbi of any stature would object.
They would do that but we are not responsible or obligated to save the lives of those who want to murder us. I don’t know which Halacha you are talking about. You keep on saying 'Halacha' but you’re not providing any Halacha or any source.

Where does it say in the entire Jewish Bible and Talmud and Jewish law, that the Jews are obligated to save the lives of their sworn enemies?


And if I was the Prime Minster I would have said to the Arabs :

'You want water from us? you want food? you want Gas? then stop murdering our children!'

Again we are not responsible or obligated to help those who desire our destruction, its against justice and common sense and logic.

The events most probably will take place as you say, that the Jews will help the Gazans anyways, but I don't believe that it will stem from an obligation to do so.
Rather it will be an act of kindness that is so ingrained into Jewish nature.

The Arabs in Gaza and in the West bank, don’t deserve our help.

The people of Haiti for standing up with those who seek our destruction, don't deserve our help.

The difference is this between Gaza and Haiti:

In Haiti, they don't deserve , but we should help anyways.

In Gaza, they don't deserve, and I am against helping them because they want to murder all the Jewish people and I’m not going to help Nazis!

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:08 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:You're just repeating yourself while continuing to miss the point. It's a matter of Derech Eretz, not tit-for-tat. Go back and read מסילת ישרים (The Path of the Just) The Ramchal explains the point perfectly. It doesn't matter what our enemies do. Their behavior is not an example for us to emulate. We are commanded to do the right thing regardless. And don't bother to tell me that you've already read it. I know Talmidim Chochomim who continue to read it constantly because of the importance of integrating its teachings into one's psyche.

I suggest that you consult a posek and ask the question for your own edification.
SaulChanukah wrote:Again,

Have I not said that we should help regardless?
Yes, and so the word "regardless" defines our mandatory obligation to do the right thing by helping people in need of help. Thus, the word "deserves" is a matter of opinion and meaningless.
Well, there is a deep difference between whether you get something because you deserve it, or you get it as a present.
Why do you think we have freedom of choice? its because God wants us to earn his goodness through our choices, because we choose good over evil.

That’s why we are not robots.
Since the Halacha is that we help people because they are in need of help regardless, then by following the Halacha, we choose good instead of evil.

More to the point of this discussion, if an earthquake of similar proportion and magnitude occurred in Gaza, you can bet your last agura that ZAKA would respond within minutes, Israeli medical teams and supplies would be in the field before the news hit the media, Israeli hospitals would be flooded with patients, and no rabbi of any stature would object.
They would do that but we are not responsible or obligated to save the lives of those who want to murder us. I don’t know which Halacha you are talking about. You keep on saying 'Halacha' but you’re not providing any Halacha or any source.

Where does it say in the entire Jewish Bible and Talmud and Jewish law, that the Jews are obligated to save the lives of their sworn enemies?
I provided you with a source. Read Ch. 19 of the Ramchal.

While you're at it, review the commentaries on Hillel's famous explanation to a prospective proselyte that the maxim "not to do unto one's fellow what is hateful to oneself" is the foundation of Judaism; the rest is no more than commentary (Shab. 31a); see also Leviticus 19:16 and 19:18.

There is no connection between our right to defend ourselves and our obligation to help people in distress.

God doesn't need our help in deciding who is deserving and who isn't. That's His business, not ours. We can't control the world, but we can control our own behavior.

We will be judged on our own merits, not by comparison with the deficiencies of our enemies.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:23 am

Pizza,

You're not making any sense.

Would you suggest that the Jews give a helping hand to the Amalekian Tribe?

In a time of peace, lets say they would have been struck with an earthquake, should the Jews support them? of course not!

Remember the story with The Philistine Tribe when they held on to the Ark of the Covenant?
They were struck with disease and they were in terrible condition, why didn’t the Jews send aid? Because they were our sworn enemies.
You are confusing Judaism with Christianity. We are not practicing the idea of "give the other cheek". And our religion doesn’t go hand in hand with liberal morals and values. If it did, we would have never had the 4 different types of capital punishments, and we would have never had the commandment to destroy and eliminate every single member of the Amalekian tribe. The libs, by their refusal to believe in God, will never accept the fact that this was in fact G-'s commandment. So what are you saying here , that Judaism must attune itself to the values of Liberals, to the values of secularism?

I don't think so.

I have reread Chapter 19 from 'The Path of the Just' an I think you have totally confused everything.

The Ramchal bases righteous behavior on 'Avot 6' where the Sages say : 'and he carries in the burden of his friend'. He goes along and says a number of times the word 'friend'.
He doesn’t say that we should give help to our 'enemies' but our 'friends'. That's the first mistake you made.

In the other instance he says "giving an aid to the creatures", be it men or animals, one should be merciful to them. But he doesn’t talk about enemies, he says in general "creatures". If there is an evil dangerous man or a bad dangerous animal we are not required to risk our lives and help them. This is the second mistake you made.

There is also a famous concept in Judaism which I'm sure you know: 'He who has mercy on the wicked in the end will be cruel to the righteous'.

We are not commanded anywhere in Judaism to have mercy on the wicked and the evil. We must free this world from wicked and evil , its a major task called "Tickun Olam".

When I walk in the street , me personally, and someone comes to me and asks me for charity, or for assistance, I never ask him, excuse me are you Jewish , are you Catholic, and I don't care if he is black or white, or any other color. The Torah says that one must give charity to anyone who stretches his hand, a Jew or non Jew. So I try to help with whatever I can.

But when I know that this man yesterday robbed my synagogue, or inflicted pain and suffering on my people, and I know that he hates Jews, and wants to do us harm, I will never help him, never.

There is another concept in Judaism that I'm sure you also know : 'Ve'ata Al Bamotemo Tidroch'. In the Book of Ester, when God destroyed Haman's plans and Mordechi was elevated, the King said to give a great honor to Mordeci and give him a mighty horse to ride upon, and the Horseman should be Haman. Mordechi told Haman to bow down and give him his back so he could put his leg and go on top of the horse . Haman tells Mordechi, why do you embarrass me like this, doesn’t it say in your Torah :" In the fall of your enemy do not rejoice"?, yes indeed, Mordechi answered, it does say so, but only about your Jewish enemy, on the gentile enemy it says 'Ve'ata Al Bamotemo Tidroch' , which means 'and you should step down on his stages'.

We see, that when our gentile enemies fall is not a time to give 'assistance to them as you suggest' , there is nothing in Judaism that says what you say, Pizza. I don't know how you reached your conclusion, but you have clearly misunderstood the Ramchal, with all due respect.

As to the Hillel story from the Talmud which you have mentioned, again you have clearly misunderstood it.

The translation says: 'and you should love your friend just like yourself'.

Again the word and emphasis here is 'Friend" not 'enemy'.

You have still failed to provide me with a clear commandment or statement anywhere in Judaism that says in clear words, that we Jews are obligated to help our enemies.

If you will do that, then I will say that you are right, but until then, you have not proven anything, and I still believe that we Jews are not obligated to help our enemies.

Best Wishes,

Saul

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:35 am

I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well, and it's not just referring to the guy living next door.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
Last edited by pizza on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:48 am

pizza wrote:I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
It also says 'Go far from a bad neighbor'.

Anyways, we are not obligated to help our enemies.

You still have not demonstrated in any way why we are obligated to help them.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:50 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
It also says 'Go far from a bad neighbor'.

Anyways, we are not obligated to help our enemies.

You still have not demonstrated in any way why we should help them.
There's nothing contradictory there. After you help him, you're not required to hang out with him.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:59 am

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
It also says 'Go far from a bad neighbor'.

Anyways, we are not obligated to help our enemies.

You still have not demonstrated in any way why we should help them.
There's nothing contradictory there. After you help him, you're not required to hang out with him.
LOL your neighbor here is not 'your enemy', and it doesn’t talk about 'your neighbor gentile country'. 'It talks about the relationships between Jews'.
The word 'friend' also means between Jews.

How about the Jewish Talmudic concept 'Anie Eircha Kodmim' ?

'The poor people of your city are closer to you then the poor people of a different city'?

If you have Jews in your city who are in a need of help , you should help them first then other Jews in a different city! and who is even talking about non Jews?

There is no where in Judaism where it says that Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people. You are inventing things, Pizza.

After they will help and give charity to all the Jews who are in need in Israel and we are talking about hundreds of thousands of Jews who live in poverty, then they can give to others, and never to our enemies. Those who vote with our enemies don’t deserve our help, but my opinion is that we should help them anyways, but those who are our sworn enemies, we should never help them.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:06 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
It also says 'Go far from a bad neighbor'.

Anyways, we are not obligated to help our enemies.

You still have not demonstrated in any way why we should help them.
There's nothing contradictory there. After you help him, you're not required to hang out with him.


There is no where in Judaism where it says that Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people. You are inventing things, Pizza.
Saul, you are inventing things. There is also no place in this discussion where I ever said "Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people". The issue of priorities never arose, nor have I ever commented on it.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:10 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
It also says 'Go far from a bad neighbor'.

Anyways, we are not obligated to help our enemies.

You still have not demonstrated in any way why we should help them.
There's nothing contradictory there. After you help him, you're not required to hang out with him.


There is no where in Judaism where it says that Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people. You are inventing things, Pizza.
Saul, you are inventing things. There is also no place in this discussion where I ever said "Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people". The issue of priorities never arose, nor have I ever commented on it.
Pizza,

You said even worse, that Jews should help the people of Gaza if they will be struck with an earthquake. That means that Jews should withhold resources and money from other Jews and go and rescue their enemies.

You said it, not me.

And even if every Jew will be a billionaire, still we should never help the murderers of Gaza who seek our destruction.

Period.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:I'm not at all confused. It depends on what you mean by "help". Should we help by re-supplying our enemies with arms? Of course not. But if he lies trapped in a collapsed building and is likely to die if you leave him there, or lies injured on the battlefield, it doesn't matter. We're obliged to help him if we can.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". You take the word much too literally. It means "neighbor" as well.

"Don't stand by your neighbor's blood." Leviticus 19:16';

It makes sense to me.
It also says 'Go far from a bad neighbor'.

Anyways, we are not obligated to help our enemies.

You still have not demonstrated in any way why we should help them.
There's nothing contradictory there. After you help him, you're not required to hang out with him.


There is no where in Judaism where it says that Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people. You are inventing things, Pizza.
Saul, you are inventing things. There is also no place in this discussion where I ever said "Jews should help their enemies before they help their own people". The issue of priorities never arose, nor have I ever commented on it.
Pizza,

You said even worse, that Jews should help the people of Gaza if they will be struck with an earthquake. That means that Jews should withhold resources and money from other Jews and go and rescue their enemies.

You said it, not me.

And even if every Jew will be a billionaire, still we should never help the murderers of Gaza who seek our destruction.

Period.
Saul: Now you're really stretching it. I never said what you claimed I said in the first place. And there is no reason why, by helping others, Jews are withholding resources from anyone else. Do you know any Jews who are deprived of resources as a result of the Haitian mission?

If two earthquakes struck simultaneously, one in Gaza and one in Israel, and there were only enough resources to help one or the other, then the question would arise. But it hasn't, and the possibility is as far-fetched as anything you could ever contrive.
Last edited by pizza on Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:22 pm

Pizza,

This difference doesn’t matter.

Jews should not help their sworn enemies, and if you believe they should do, I think that your opinion is absurd.

If you were living in the Time of King David, you will be judged for treason, especially when they are in a state of war with us.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:30 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:Pizza,

This difference doesn’t matter.

Jews should not help their sworn enemies, and if you believe they should do, I think that your opinion is absurd.

If you were living in the Time of King David, you will be judged for treason, especially when they are in a state of war with us.
Saul: It's not only my opinion. I've demonstrated the sources for my reasons. And if it came to a choice between being judged for treason, or being judged for violating Halacha, I'd take the first option any time.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:38 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:Pizza,

This difference doesn’t matter.

Jews should not help their sworn enemies, and if you believe they should do, I think that your opinion is absurd.

If you were living in the Time of King David, you will be judged for treason, especially when they are in a state of war with us.
Saul: It's not only my opinion. I've demonstrated the sources for my reasons. And if it came to a choice between being judged for treason, or being judged for violating Halacha, I'd take the first option any time.
I think that I have explained to you that you totally misunderstood those sources.

If you are willing to base your opinions on misunderstandings, then go ahead.

Ask your Rabbi to help you understand what the Ramchal means and what those verses from the Torah mean, in their correct contexts.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:57 pm

Saul: Here is an opportunity for you to learn something useful about the Halachas concerning rescue, and their history. Pay particular attention to Maimonides' Code. Note that nowhere is there any reference to distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, friends or enemies, or the like with regard to their application. They apply uniformly to one's fellow man.

Enjoy!

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/ass ... enbaum.htm

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:38 pm

pizza wrote:Saul: Here is an opportunity for you to learn something useful about the Halachas concerning rescue, and their history. Pay particular attention to Maimonides' Code. Note that nowhere is there any reference to distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, friends or enemies, or the like with regard to their application. They apply uniformly to one's fellow man.

Enjoy!

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/ass ... enbaum.htm
This M.J says :' encouraging active intervention to assist a fellow human being in peril and thus transforming the unconcerned bystander into a Good Samaritan'.

I don't want to be a 'good Samaritan' I want to be a good Jew.

Or did you forget that the Samaritans were one of our greatest enemies?

Again he infuses here Christian Theology into Jewish Theology. The famous Christian passage of a man fallen sick and in need of assistance was approached by a Levite and was ignored and then was Approached by a Priest and was ignored , and later on was approached by a Samaritan and was rescued is a classical anti Semitic blood libel where the Christians blame the Jew of not been able to perform the most basic acts of kindness towards his fellow human beings. But who then can perform an act of kindness? the Samarian, the enemy of the Jews, so the Christians believe.

Aaron Kirschenbaum, J.D. who is he a Rabbi? since when he became an authority on Jewish law?
Do you know how many gentiles hold degrees in Talmudic studies and Jewish law? Should we then look upon them as authority when it comes to Jewish law?

Of course not.

We have our Jewish authentic Rabbinical authorities, and only they have the authority when it comes to Jewish law, not some J.D or any other 'intellectuals' of any sort.

Among the total rumble and huge salad that he made with that article, Pizza, nowhere does he say anything about helping our sworn enemies.

He talks about bystanders, and neighbors, friends, , fellow human beings 'FELLOW' not sworn enemies.

If I go in the street and I hear the cries of a woman been raped, I don't care if she is Jewish or not I am obligated to help, that's clear. But if I knew that yesterday she murdered 20 Jews in cold blood, I will not help. It all has to do with information, what kind of information do you have.

If I didn’t know anything about Hamas' murderous actions towards my people, you are right, I would have naturally helped, because its my nature to be compassionate. But I f I know that these people want to murder me, and my people, I will not help, and there is no Jewish law or verse or teaching that obligates me to help these murderers.

Also you must remember that there are thee types of peoples in this world corresponding to the 3 different spiritual traits , they are :

Hessed - Benevolence

Gvurah - Judgment

Tiferet - A middle power that unites these 2 traits into a balanced one.

Hessed - Benevolence, is the trait of the Christians, assist and help no matter what, only doing things of kindness whether you deserve it or not, even to your worst enemies, forgiveness, love without any limits without any context, we learn this from their teaching :'Give the other cheek'.

Gevurah - Judgment - is the trait of the Muslims, they say: if you are not Muslim, you will be killed, kill all the infidels, there is no other God then Allah, and anyone who doesn’t believe in him will be put to death, by the power of the sword. Zealotry and judgment are the traits of Islam.

Tiferet- Balanced middle power that unites these two somewhat 'extreme' traits, belongs to Israel our father, the Jewish people.
We believe that everything has its measures (God Excluded), context, and our actions must have wisdom. Therefore we are for helping human beings, our people, our friends, even the gentiles, but we are not obligated to help our enemies. On the other hand, we must give judgment, but it must be infused with a measure of Benevolence, that is why the Talmud says "any court that carried out a capital punishment once in 70 years, is a murderous court'. We are not excited to give judgment and we are not rejoicing when the transgressor has been put to death, that's why we try to find ways to release him, but if he is guilty nevertheless, and there is no shadow of doubt that he indeed committed the crime, then Judgment must be enforced.

That is the Jewish way. You are trying very hard without even realizing it, to turn Judaism into Christianity.

We are not Christians, and are not willing to give 'the other cheek' to our enemies. We will help any person, even those who don't deserve it, but we will never help our sworn enemies.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:31 pm

Saul: Your nonsensical reply does you no service. Kirschenbaum's article, which I'm sure you haven't read in its entirety, is a well-researched, thoroughly documented overview of the subject of the history of rescue from a Jewish perspective. It is one of many excellent articles published in Assia, a Journal of Jewish Medical Ethics and Halacha. That distinguished publication is recognized by Halachic authorities as important and worthwhile, and is often referred to and quoted by well-known rabbis and other authorities.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:58 pm

pizza wrote:Saul: Your nonsensical reply does you no service. Kirschenbaum's article, which I'm sure you haven't read in its entirety, is a well-researched, thoroughly documented overview of the subject of the history of rescue from a Jewish perspective. It is one of many excellent articles published in Assia, a Journal of Jewish Medical Ethics and Halacha. That distinguished publication is recognized by Halachic authorities as important and worthwhile, and is often referred to and quoted by well-known rabbis and other authorities.
But you miss the whole point which is, that he is not talking about the enemies of the Jewish people.
Actually I read most of it, and nowhere does he discuss the obligation of helping our sworn enemies.
You extrapolate, from the generality of helping others to helping our enemies too. And that's your error.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:59 am

Take a look at Parshas Mishpatim, Exodus 23:4, and 23:5, and the explanatory commentaries in Gemara Bava Metzia, 32b-33a; the Halacha even requires of one who finds both his good friend and his hated enemy in a predicament: He must first go to the aid of the hated enemy "in order to subdue the evil inclination that encourages one to let an enemy suffer."

That's the Halacha.
Last edited by pizza on Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:52 am

Pizza,

You are making the same error again.
In this context the enemy is your Jewish brother.
If both of them are Jewish and one of them is your beloved and the other is the one you hate, you should help the one you hate in order that he will have good thoughts about you and that peace should come between you. I have learned this a long time ago, and every student of Talmud knows that it talks about 2 Jews.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:02 am

SaulChanukah wrote:Pizza,

You are making the same error again.
In this context the enemy is your Jewish brother.
If both of them are Jewish and one of them is your beloved and the other is the one you hate, you should help the one you hate in order that he will have good thoughts about you and that peace should come between you. I have learned this a long time ago, and every student of Talmud knows that it talks about 2 Jews.
Saul: You're avoiding the meaning of the word "enemy". The point is that you are not permitted to take pleasure in allowing your enemy to suffer, and that's why you must come to his aid.

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:04 am

I posted this information before in another thread:

The Bluzhever Rebbe, Rabbi Israel Spira, z'tl escaped from the Janowska Road Camp and was rescued by Gestapo officer Helmut Muller, who recognized him from their friendship before the war, provided him with a stamped passport for foreign nationals, and hid him out in an apartment in Lvov at great risk to himself. Muller was later tried as a war criminal and imprisoned.

(On Helmut Muller, see: "Trials of War Criminals before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals, Nuremberg, October 1946 - April 1949 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office), vol. IV, pp. 864-66, Green Series.)


The relevance to this discussion is that The Bluzhever Rebbe, a giant among Chassidim and a well-known Talmud Chochem, on his own initiative and at his own expense, testified as a witness on behalf of Helmut Muller who was obviously not Jewish, was an enemy of the Jewish people by any reasonable standard, and was in serious trouble.

I'm certain that the Rebbe knew the Halachas concerning the proper way to treat an enemy in distress.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:44 am

pizza wrote:I posted this information before in another thread:

The Bluzhever Rebbe, Rabbi Israel Spira, z'tl escaped from the Janowska Road Camp and was rescued by Gestapo officer Helmut Muller, who recognized him from their friendship before the war, provided him with a stamped passport for foreign nationals, and hid him out in an apartment in Lvov at great risk to himself. Muller was later tried as a war criminal and imprisoned.

(On Helmut Muller, see: "Trials of War Criminals before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals, Nuremberg, October 1946 - April 1949 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office), vol. IV, pp. 864-66, Green Series.)


The relevance to this discussion is that The Bluzhever Rebbe, a giant among Chassidim and a well-known Talmud Chochem, on his own initiative and at his own expense, testified as a witness on behalf of Helmut Muller who was obviously not Jewish, was an enemy of the Jewish people by any reasonable standard, and was in serious trouble.

I'm certain that the Rebbe knew the Halachas concerning the proper way to treat an enemy in distress.

Pizza,

As it becomes more and more difficult for you to admit that you have not demonstrated in any way shape or form that Jews must help their sworn enemies, your comments become more nonsensical.

The source you provided Parshas Mishpatim, Exodus 23:4, and 23:5, together with the Talmudic explanation talks about 2 Jews. It doesn’t say the word 'Enemy' you’re right, it says 'Shonecha' your 'Hater', but you were the one who tried to extrapolate from this, about helping a gentile enemy. Clearly, that is not the case.

As to the Rebbe's Story, again you are desperately trying to bring evidence from an irrelevant story.

Why its irrelevant?

Because a Gentile, even a Nazi who risks his life to save another Jew, turns from an enemy, to a righteous among the Nations. So did Oscar Schindler, who was a Nazi, but since he risked his life to save Jews, and he did save Jews, the Yad Vashem in Israel turned him into a 'Righteous among the nations'.

If you want to demonstrate to me that Jews must help their enemies, you should bring the case of Eichmann. Why didn’t the Jews 'help' this mass murderer from his situation?
Surely, they shouldn’t have put him to death by hanging him , they should have freed him 'in order to subdue the evil inclination that encourages one to let an enemy suffer' as you suggested?

Do you see now how flawed and illogical your argument was from the beginning?

Are you ready to admit and be 'Modeh Al Ha'emeth' admit the truth for the sake of truth?

pizza
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Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:28 pm

Saul: First you claimed that the Halachas I rely upon apply only to Jews. When I showed that they also apply to non-Jews by demonstrating a real-life example, you respond with silly examples that are either irrelevant, such as Oscar Schindler, who wasn't in any trouble or distress and didn't need any help, or Eichmann, who was treated properly and humanely while on trial in Israel, and who no sane person would claim to have even the slightest redeeming feature that could possibly prompt any Jew to help him under any circumstances beyond normal, civilized protocol.

By any reasonable definition, Helmut Muller was not a righteous Gentile. He caused the death of many Jews. He was tried and imprisoned for his crimes. However, the Rebbe helped him, and it wasn't simply to return a personal favor. He encountered a man whom he knew, and who was in distress -- an enemy of the Jewish people as defined by his record -- and as he was in a position to help, he went out of his way to help him regardless. You can dance around the point all you like, but you can't turn him into a righteous Gentile no matter how hard you try.

An additional point to consider, and then I'm through with this seemingly pointless discussion -- Rabbi Yishmael's 8th Rule of the 13 Rules through which Torah is elucidated:

Anything that was included in a general statement, but was then singled out from the general statement to teach something, was not singled out to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality.

The Rule, when applied to this situation, shows that the obligation upon a Jew to help a suffering enemy, if possible, applies to all mankind -- the entire generality -- not only to Jews.

I raised these questions over Shabbat with the assistant rabbi of our congregation, (the principal rabbi being out-of-town and unavailable), and he confirmed that the Halacha is that one who is in a position to help, is not permitted to allow an enemy to suffer if he can be helped at no risk to the person helping him.

And in the context of the Haitian rescue mission, the event that prompted this thread, the general Haitian population can't be considered "enemies" simply because their government has voted against Israel in the UN General Assembly.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:05 pm

pizza wrote:Saul: First you claimed that the Halachas I rely upon apply only to Jews. When I showed that they also apply to non-Jews by demonstrating a real-life example, you respond with silly examples that are either irrelevant, such as Oscar Schindler, who wasn't in any trouble or distress and didn't need any help, or Eichmann, who was treated properly and humanely while on trial in Israel, and who no sane person would claim to have even the slightest redeeming feature that could possibly prompt any Jew to help him under any circumstances beyond normal, civilized protocol.

By any reasonable definition, Helmut Muller was not a righteous Gentile. He caused the death of many Jews. He was tried and imprisoned for his crimes. However, the Rebbe helped him, and it wasn't simply to return a personal favor. He encountered a man whom he knew, and who was in distress -- an enemy of the Jewish people as defined by his record -- and as he was in a position to help, he went out of his way to help him regardless. You can dance around the point all you like, but you can't turn him into a righteous Gentile no matter how hard you try.

An additional point to consider, and then I'm through with this seemingly pointless discussion -- Rabbi Yishmael's 8th Rule of the 13 Rules through which Torah is elucidated:

Anything that was included in a general statement, but was then singled out from the general statement to teach something, was not singled out to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality.

The Rule, when applied to this situation, shows that the obligation upon a Jew to help a suffering enemy, if possible, applies to all mankind -- the entire generality -- not only to Jews.

I raised these questions over Shabbat with the assistant rabbi of our congregation, (the principal rabbi being out-of-town and unavailable), and he confirmed that the Halacha is that one who is in a position to help, is not permitted to allow an enemy to suffer if he can be helped at no risk to the person helping him.

And in the context of the Haitian rescue mission, the event that prompted this thread, the general Haitian population can't be considered "enemies" simply because their government has voted against Israel in the UN General Assembly.

Tonight I have personally asked Torah Scholars from my Shul and also my brother in law who is a Torah Scholar, and they all said that nowhere in our entire Torah or anywhere in Halacha it says that Jews are obligated to help their enemies.

Are you standing now, against the Torah and the Halacha?

There is nothing to talk about Pizza, you are now arguing with them, not me.

Please be 'Mode Al Ha'emeth' and stop arguing, there is nothing to argue about.

According to Halacha and our Torah Jews are not obligated to help their enemies, period.

Jean
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:09 pm

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by Jean » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:37 am

Political disagreement does not automatically make people and "enemy" in the way in which you keep using the word.
Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. - Albert Einstein

I haven't got the slightest idea how to change people, but still I keep a long list of prospective candidates just in case I should ever figure it out - David Sedaris (Naked)

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:39 am

Jean wrote:Political disagreement does not automatically make people and "enemy" in the way in which you keep using the word.
I dont know about you, but anyone who threatens to murder my people, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify the murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews, is my enemy.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:13 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:Saul: First you claimed that the Halachas I rely upon apply only to Jews. When I showed that they also apply to non-Jews by demonstrating a real-life example, you respond with silly examples that are either irrelevant, such as Oscar Schindler, who wasn't in any trouble or distress and didn't need any help, or Eichmann, who was treated properly and humanely while on trial in Israel, and who no sane person would claim to have even the slightest redeeming feature that could possibly prompt any Jew to help him under any circumstances beyond normal, civilized protocol.

By any reasonable definition, Helmut Muller was not a righteous Gentile. He caused the death of many Jews. He was tried and imprisoned for his crimes. However, the Rebbe helped him, and it wasn't simply to return a personal favor. He encountered a man whom he knew, and who was in distress -- an enemy of the Jewish people as defined by his record -- and as he was in a position to help, he went out of his way to help him regardless. You can dance around the point all you like, but you can't turn him into a righteous Gentile no matter how hard you try.

An additional point to consider, and then I'm through with this seemingly pointless discussion -- Rabbi Yishmael's 8th Rule of the 13 Rules through which Torah is elucidated:

Anything that was included in a general statement, but was then singled out from the general statement to teach something, was not singled out to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality.

The Rule, when applied to this situation, shows that the obligation upon a Jew to help a suffering enemy, if possible, applies to all mankind -- the entire generality -- not only to Jews.

I raised these questions over Shabbat with the assistant rabbi of our congregation, (the principal rabbi being out-of-town and unavailable), and he confirmed that the Halacha is that one who is in a position to help, is not permitted to allow an enemy to suffer if he can be helped at no risk to the person helping him.

And in the context of the Haitian rescue mission, the event that prompted this thread, the general Haitian population can't be considered "enemies" simply because their government has voted against Israel in the UN General Assembly.

Tonight I have personally asked Torah Scholars from my Shul and also my brother in law who is a Torah Scholar, and they all said that nowhere in our entire Torah or anywhere in Halacha it says that Jews are obligated to help their enemies.

Are you standing now, against the Torah and the Halacha?

There is nothing to talk about Pizza, you are now arguing with them, not me.

Please be 'Mode Al Ha'emeth' and stop arguing, there is nothing to argue about.

According to Halacha and our Torah Jews are not obligated to help their enemies, period.
We both know that the answer to any question depends on how it is asked. Did you ask your scholars whether a Jew is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself? You couldn't have, or you wouldn't have received the answer you received. You didn't even mention the word "suffer" in your answer, and that's the crux of the question and the issue which you carefully avoid.

I'm satisfied with the answer I received from our ass't. rabbi. He's a well-known Torah scholar, and a rosh yeshiva who has taught for more than 30 years.

There indeed is nothing to argue about.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:21 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Jean wrote:Political disagreement does not automatically make people and "enemy" in the way in which you keep using the word.
I dont know about you, but anyone who threatens to murder my people, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify the murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews, is my enemy.
Name one Haitian earthquake victim who has threatened to murder Jews, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews. Just one. And if you do, post your source.
Last edited by pizza on Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:22 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:Saul: First you claimed that the Halachas I rely upon apply only to Jews. When I showed that they also apply to non-Jews by demonstrating a real-life example, you respond with silly examples that are either irrelevant, such as Oscar Schindler, who wasn't in any trouble or distress and didn't need any help, or Eichmann, who was treated properly and humanely while on trial in Israel, and who no sane person would claim to have even the slightest redeeming feature that could possibly prompt any Jew to help him under any circumstances beyond normal, civilized protocol.

By any reasonable definition, Helmut Muller was not a righteous Gentile. He caused the death of many Jews. He was tried and imprisoned for his crimes. However, the Rebbe helped him, and it wasn't simply to return a personal favor. He encountered a man whom he knew, and who was in distress -- an enemy of the Jewish people as defined by his record -- and as he was in a position to help, he went out of his way to help him regardless. You can dance around the point all you like, but you can't turn him into a righteous Gentile no matter how hard you try.

An additional point to consider, and then I'm through with this seemingly pointless discussion -- Rabbi Yishmael's 8th Rule of the 13 Rules through which Torah is elucidated:

Anything that was included in a general statement, but was then singled out from the general statement to teach something, was not singled out to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality.
The Rule, when applied to this situation, shows that the obligation upon a Jew to help a suffering enemy, if possible, applies to all mankind -- the entire generality -- not only to Jews.

I raised these questions over Shabbat with the assistant rabbi of our congregation, (the principal rabbi being out-of-town and unavailable), and he confirmed that the Halacha is that one who is in a position to help, is not permitted to allow an enemy to suffer if he can be helped at no risk to the person helping him.

And in the context of the Haitian rescue mission, the event that prompted this thread, the general Haitian population can't be considered "enemies" simply because their government has voted against Israel in the UN General Assembly.

Tonight I have personally asked Torah Scholars from my Shul and also my brother in law who is a Torah Scholar, and they all said that nowhere in our entire Torah or anywhere in Halacha it says that Jews are obligated to help their enemies.

Are you standing now, against the Torah and the Halacha?

There is nothing to talk about Pizza, you are now arguing with them, not me.

Please be 'Mode Al Ha'emeth' and stop arguing, there is nothing to argue about.

According to Halacha and our Torah Jews are not obligated to help their enemies, period.
We both know that the answer to any question depends on how it is asked. Did you ask your scholars whether a Jew is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself? You couldn't have, or you wouldn't have received the answer you received. You didn't even mention the word "suffer" in your answer, and that's the crux of the question and the issue which you carefully avoid.

I'm satisfied with the answer I received from our ass't. rabbi. He's a well-known Torah scholar, and a rosh yeshiva who has taught for more than 30 years.

There indeed is nothing to argue about.
Its the same question, if a Jew is not obligated to help his enemies, then he is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself, and that's the entire point. I don't know who is your Rabbi, but I have asked a number of Torah Scholars , and they all said that Jews are not obligated to help their enemies.

Its says in Pirki Avot 'ase lecha rav', you have your Rabbi, and I have mine, lets each listen to their own, and that's that.

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