Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

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SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:23 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Jean wrote:Political disagreement does not automatically make people and "enemy" in the way in which you keep using the word.
I dont know about you, but anyone who threatens to murder my people, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify the murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews, is my enemy.
Name one Haitian who has threatened to murder Jews, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews. Just one. And if you do, post your source.
I never said that 'Haiti is our enemy'. I said Hamas is. You should read my posts more carefully, Pizza.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:33 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:Saul: First you claimed that the Halachas I rely upon apply only to Jews. When I showed that they also apply to non-Jews by demonstrating a real-life example, you respond with silly examples that are either irrelevant, such as Oscar Schindler, who wasn't in any trouble or distress and didn't need any help, or Eichmann, who was treated properly and humanely while on trial in Israel, and who no sane person would claim to have even the slightest redeeming feature that could possibly prompt any Jew to help him under any circumstances beyond normal, civilized protocol.

By any reasonable definition, Helmut Muller was not a righteous Gentile. He caused the death of many Jews. He was tried and imprisoned for his crimes. However, the Rebbe helped him, and it wasn't simply to return a personal favor. He encountered a man whom he knew, and who was in distress -- an enemy of the Jewish people as defined by his record -- and as he was in a position to help, he went out of his way to help him regardless. You can dance around the point all you like, but you can't turn him into a righteous Gentile no matter how hard you try.

An additional point to consider, and then I'm through with this seemingly pointless discussion -- Rabbi Yishmael's 8th Rule of the 13 Rules through which Torah is elucidated:

Anything that was included in a general statement, but was then singled out from the general statement to teach something, was not singled out to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality.
The Rule, when applied to this situation, shows that the obligation upon a Jew to help a suffering enemy, if possible, applies to all mankind -- the entire generality -- not only to Jews.

I raised these questions over Shabbat with the assistant rabbi of our congregation, (the principal rabbi being out-of-town and unavailable), and he confirmed that the Halacha is that one who is in a position to help, is not permitted to allow an enemy to suffer if he can be helped at no risk to the person helping him.

And in the context of the Haitian rescue mission, the event that prompted this thread, the general Haitian population can't be considered "enemies" simply because their government has voted against Israel in the UN General Assembly.

Tonight I have personally asked Torah Scholars from my Shul and also my brother in law who is a Torah Scholar, and they all said that nowhere in our entire Torah or anywhere in Halacha it says that Jews are obligated to help their enemies.

Are you standing now, against the Torah and the Halacha?

There is nothing to talk about Pizza, you are now arguing with them, not me.

Please be 'Mode Al Ha'emeth' and stop arguing, there is nothing to argue about.

According to Halacha and our Torah Jews are not obligated to help their enemies, period.
We both know that the answer to any question depends on how it is asked. Did you ask your scholars whether a Jew is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself? You couldn't have, or you wouldn't have received the answer you received. You didn't even mention the word "suffer" in your answer, and that's the crux of the question and the issue which you carefully avoid.

I'm satisfied with the answer I received from our ass't. rabbi. He's a well-known Torah scholar, and a rosh yeshiva who has taught for more than 30 years.

There indeed is nothing to argue about.
Its the same question, if a Jew is not obligated to help his enemies, then he is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself, and that's the entire point. I don't know who is your Rabbi, but I have asked a number of Torah Scholars , and they all said that Jews are not obligated to help their enemies.
Asking the general question concerning "help" is not the same as the specific question regarding help for one who will continue to suffer without it. Your answer confirms my belief that you didn't ask the question in the proper context.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:43 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Jean wrote:Political disagreement does not automatically make people and "enemy" in the way in which you keep using the word.
I dont know about you, but anyone who threatens to murder my people, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify the murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews, is my enemy.
Name one Haitian who has threatened to murder Jews, engages in terrorists attacks, uses his religion to justify murder and calls out everywhere for the murder of Jews. Just one. And if you do, post your source.
I never said that 'Haiti is our enemy'. I said Hamas is. You should read my posts more carefully, Pizza.
You should read your own posts more carefully, Saul:

". . . they don't deserve our help because when we were surrounded by wolves they joined in with the rascals," . . . .

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:58 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:Saul: First you claimed that the Halachas I rely upon apply only to Jews. When I showed that they also apply to non-Jews by demonstrating a real-life example, you respond with silly examples that are either irrelevant, such as Oscar Schindler, who wasn't in any trouble or distress and didn't need any help, or Eichmann, who was treated properly and humanely while on trial in Israel, and who no sane person would claim to have even the slightest redeeming feature that could possibly prompt any Jew to help him under any circumstances beyond normal, civilized protocol.

By any reasonable definition, Helmut Muller was not a righteous Gentile. He caused the death of many Jews. He was tried and imprisoned for his crimes. However, the Rebbe helped him, and it wasn't simply to return a personal favor. He encountered a man whom he knew, and who was in distress -- an enemy of the Jewish people as defined by his record -- and as he was in a position to help, he went out of his way to help him regardless. You can dance around the point all you like, but you can't turn him into a righteous Gentile no matter how hard you try.

An additional point to consider, and then I'm through with this seemingly pointless discussion -- Rabbi Yishmael's 8th Rule of the 13 Rules through which Torah is elucidated:

Anything that was included in a general statement, but was then singled out from the general statement to teach something, was not singled out to teach only about itself, but to apply its teaching to the entire generality.
The Rule, when applied to this situation, shows that the obligation upon a Jew to help a suffering enemy, if possible, applies to all mankind -- the entire generality -- not only to Jews.

I raised these questions over Shabbat with the assistant rabbi of our congregation, (the principal rabbi being out-of-town and unavailable), and he confirmed that the Halacha is that one who is in a position to help, is not permitted to allow an enemy to suffer if he can be helped at no risk to the person helping him.

And in the context of the Haitian rescue mission, the event that prompted this thread, the general Haitian population can't be considered "enemies" simply because their government has voted against Israel in the UN General Assembly.

Tonight I have personally asked Torah Scholars from my Shul and also my brother in law who is a Torah Scholar, and they all said that nowhere in our entire Torah or anywhere in Halacha it says that Jews are obligated to help their enemies.

Are you standing now, against the Torah and the Halacha?

There is nothing to talk about Pizza, you are now arguing with them, not me.

Please be 'Mode Al Ha'emeth' and stop arguing, there is nothing to argue about.

According to Halacha and our Torah Jews are not obligated to help their enemies, period.
We both know that the answer to any question depends on how it is asked. Did you ask your scholars whether a Jew is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself? You couldn't have, or you wouldn't have received the answer you received. You didn't even mention the word "suffer" in your answer, and that's the crux of the question and the issue which you carefully avoid.

I'm satisfied with the answer I received from our ass't. rabbi. He's a well-known Torah scholar, and a rosh yeshiva who has taught for more than 30 years.

There indeed is nothing to argue about.
Its the same question, if a Jew is not obligated to help his enemies, then he is permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself, and that's the entire point. I don't know who is your Rabbi, but I have asked a number of Torah Scholars , and they all said that Jews are not obligated to help their enemies.
Asking the general question concerning "help" is not the same as the specific question regarding help for one who will continue to suffer without it. Your answer confirms my belief that you didn't ask the question in the proper context.
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You keep on arguing for no reason. I don't know what your Rabbi based his decision on, but since you trust him, follow him.

Case closed, there’s nothing to talk about anymore.

And about your comment about Haiti They don't deserve our help, that's right, but we should help them anyways because they are not our clear-cut enemies just like Hamas is, but had they have been enemies like Hamas, then Jews wouldn’t have any obligation whatsoever to help them. The obligation for helping Haiti stems not because of 'humanitarian reasons' as you try to suggest but because of 'Darchi Shalom' a concept that you should know. But Hamas, is a clear-cut enemy that wants to murder all Jews, and did murder many Jews until now, therefore there is no legal basis even the basis of 'Darchi Shalom' when it comes to hamas, they are our sworn enemies and we are not obligated to help them.

Also remember that there is a major problem when it comes to Haiti, because they are 'Ovdi Avoda Zara' and also 'Dorshim Al Ha'mesim', one of the worst forms of idol worship that one can imagine. So the situation is not so simple, you try to color all this situation to be an obvious one. Its not, because they voted with our enemies, they are major idol worshippers of the worst kind imaginable (you know they are busy with bringing the dead and asking them things, one of the worst forms of idol worship), it is not so obvious that Jews should help them at all. But from what I gathered now, it seems, that we should help them because of 'Darchi Shalom' , 'the ways of peace', not for other reason.

I asked even about your source from Mishpatim, they all said that it talks about 2 Jews and not a Jew and his enemy. Actually I was surprised that you didnt know that since its so obvious.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:37 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You're deliberately skirting around the issue of suffering. You didn't include that part of the equation in your question. That's the question I'm concerned with and which you continue to avoid. So it's clear that we're not asking the same question of our respective scholars.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:14 am

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You're deliberately skirting around the issue of suffering. You didn't include that part of the equation in your question. That's the question I'm concerned with and which you continue to avoid. So it's clear that we're not asking the same question of our respective scholars.
We are talking here, Pizza about Halacha. And I don't see the difference youre trying to point out. The question is whether Jews are obligated to help their sworn enemies, the Scholars I asked told me no.

There is nothing to talk about anymore.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:29 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You're deliberately skirting around the issue of suffering. You didn't include that part of the equation in your question. That's the question I'm concerned with and which you continue to avoid. So it's clear that we're not asking the same question of our respective scholars.
We are talking here, Pizza about Halacha. And I don't see the difference youre trying to point out. The question is whether Jews are obligated to help their sworn enemies, the Scholars I asked told me no.

There is nothing to talk about anymore.
I doubt that you don't see the difference, but if you insist that your sense of logic and discernment has failed you, I won't disagree.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:06 pm

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You're deliberately skirting around the issue of suffering. You didn't include that part of the equation in your question. That's the question I'm concerned with and which you continue to avoid. So it's clear that we're not asking the same question of our respective scholars.
We are talking here, Pizza about Halacha. And I don't see the difference youre trying to point out. The question is whether Jews are obligated to help their sworn enemies, the Scholars I asked told me no.

There is nothing to talk about anymore.
I doubt that you don't see the difference, but if you insist that your sense of logic and discernment has failed you, I won't disagree.
How did you ask your Rabbi the question?

Did you ask :" Rabbi, what do you say about helping enemies like Hamas who publicly call for the murder of the Jewish people? Are Jews obligated to help the suffering Hamas people after they have been hit by the earthquake? Don't forget Rabbi, that they murdered thousands of Jews and they preach hatred against our people and they send their children to suicide kindergartens to teach them how to murder Jews and that the highest and most noble thing that they can achieve is to murder Jews?

Did you ask him like that?

Or you didn’t even mention the word 'Hamas' and what they did to the Jews and what they plan to do to the Jews?
'And before you make your decision dear Rabbi, here is a list with photographs and short bios of all the Jewish victims of Hamas, please read this carefully before you make up your mind'.

I'm pretty sure that if you ask him this way, your Rabbi will tell you that Jews are not obligated to help these monsters.

pizza
Posts: 5094
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:03 am

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by pizza » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:14 am

SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You're deliberately skirting around the issue of suffering. You didn't include that part of the equation in your question. That's the question I'm concerned with and which you continue to avoid. So it's clear that we're not asking the same question of our respective scholars.
We are talking here, Pizza about Halacha. And I don't see the difference youre trying to point out. The question is whether Jews are obligated to help their sworn enemies, the Scholars I asked told me no.

There is nothing to talk about anymore.
I doubt that you don't see the difference, but if you insist that your sense of logic and discernment has failed you, I won't disagree.
How did you ask your Rabbi the question?
I asked the following question:

Is a Jew permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself?

The answer was "NO".

It's as simple as that.

SaulChanukah

Re: Haiti regularly votes against Israel in the UN

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:10 am

pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
pizza wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
I asked about the situation in Gaza. Are Jews obligated to help them since they are our enemies. They all said no.
You're deliberately skirting around the issue of suffering. You didn't include that part of the equation in your question. That's the question I'm concerned with and which you continue to avoid. So it's clear that we're not asking the same question of our respective scholars.
We are talking here, Pizza about Halacha. And I don't see the difference youre trying to point out. The question is whether Jews are obligated to help their sworn enemies, the Scholars I asked told me no.

There is nothing to talk about anymore.
I doubt that you don't see the difference, but if you insist that your sense of logic and discernment has failed you, I won't disagree.
How did you ask your Rabbi the question?
I asked the following question:

Is a Jew permitted to allow an enemy to continue to suffer, if he is in a position to offer relief at no risk to himself?

The answer was "NO".

It's as simple as that.
You should have added the word 'hamas'.

Ask him, are Jews obligated to help Hamas?

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