"Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

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Holden Fourth
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"Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Holden Fourth » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:30 am

Saul, I'm so impressed by your total devotion and dedication to the Pro-Jewish cause. You winkle out any media references to Israel/Jewish/etc matters so thoroughly that we don't even have to consult our own media sources. We have you to thank for this! Well done

I notice that you have a burning passion however, I see that despite your total promulgation of the state of Israel that you don't actually live there. Sadly, you are stuck in New York city fretting away about how you could further the cause you love so dearly. I'm thinking that maybe it's because you are a poor musician and you can't afford to go there.

Well, help is now at hand. I'm so inspired by your patriotism I'm prepared to organise a fund raiser to help you fly to the country that inspires you and I'll kick in the first $25. Now if 25 of us also put in that amount we could have you landing in Tel Aviv as early as February but a bit later if you wish. This will give you the opportunity to take on the enemy, who are threatening the Jewish state, first hand. We are a generous bunch here at CMG and I know that raising the money would take mere days.

So what about it Saul? Here's your chance to put your words into action on the front line. Face to face with your tormentors. I'm not expecting you to join the Israeli Army and fight (but it's an idea) though you could possibly use your musical skills to help enhance your new nation.

What I'll do is I'll collect pledges from CMG members at this stage and when we get to the required amount of money for the airfare I'll then get back to you as to when you'd like to travel. Now, this is for one way travel only as we wouldn't expect you to come back to a country that's being run by a 'closet Islamist' in your opinion. Wouldn't you be so much happier in a country that enshrines the epitomisation of all your views?

So what about it CMG guys and girls, do we help Saul achieve his dream? Please post about this.

Madame
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:10 am

Holden Fourth wrote:Saul, I'm so impressed by your total devotion and dedication to the Pro-Jewish cause. You winkle out any media references to Israel/Jewish/etc matters so thoroughly that we don't even have to consult our own media sources. We have you to thank for this! Well done

I notice that you have a burning passion however, I see that despite your total promulgation of the state of Israel that you don't actually live there. Sadly, you are stuck in New York city fretting away about how you could further the cause you love so dearly. I'm thinking that maybe it's because you are a poor musician and you can't afford to go there.

Well, help is now at hand. I'm so inspired by your patriotism I'm prepared to organise a fund raiser to help you fly to the country that inspires you and I'll kick in the first $25. Now if 25 of us also put in that amount we could have you landing in Tel Aviv as early as February but a bit later if you wish. This will give you the opportunity to take on the enemy, who are threatening the Jewish state, first hand. We are a generous bunch here at CMG and I know that raising the money would take mere days.

So what about it Saul? Here's your chance to put your words into action on the front line. Face to face with your tormentors. I'm not expecting you to join the Israeli Army and fight (but it's an idea) though you could possibly use your musical skills to help enhance your new nation.

What I'll do is I'll collect pledges from CMG members at this stage and when we get to the required amount of money for the airfare I'll then get back to you as to when you'd like to travel. Now, this is for one way travel only as we wouldn't expect you to come back to a country that's being run by a 'closet Islamist' in your opinion. Wouldn't you be so much happier in a country that enshrines the epitomisation of all your views?

So what about it CMG guys and girls, do we help Saul achieve his dream? Please post about this.
This CMG girl thinks you are way out of line starting a thread like this. It doesn't matter if it's directed at Saul or anyone else. It's childish.

Holden Fourth
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Holden Fourth » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:36 am

Madame wrote:
Holden Fourth wrote:Saul, I'm so impressed by your total devotion and dedication to the Pro-Jewish cause. You winkle out any media references to Israel/Jewish/etc matters so thoroughly that we don't even have to consult our own media sources. We have you to thank for this! Well done

I notice that you have a burning passion however, I see that despite your total promulgation of the state of Israel that you don't actually live there. Sadly, you are stuck in New York city fretting away about how you could further the cause you love so dearly. I'm thinking that maybe it's because you are a poor musician and you can't afford to go there.

Well, help is now at hand. I'm so inspired by your patriotism I'm prepared to organise a fund raiser to help you fly to the country that inspires you and I'll kick in the first $25. Now if 25 of us also put in that amount we could have you landing in Tel Aviv as early as February but a bit later if you wish. This will give you the opportunity to take on the enemy, who are threatening the Jewish state, first hand. We are a generous bunch here at CMG and I know that raising the money would take mere days.

So what about it Saul? Here's your chance to put your words into action on the front line. Face to face with your tormentors. I'm not expecting you to join the Israeli Army and fight (but it's an idea) though you could possibly use your musical skills to help enhance your new nation.

What I'll do is I'll collect pledges from CMG members at this stage and when we get to the required amount of money for the airfare I'll then get back to you as to when you'd like to travel. Now, this is for one way travel only as we wouldn't expect you to come back to a country that's being run by a 'closet Islamist' in your opinion. Wouldn't you be so much happier in a country that enshrines the epitomisation of all your views?

So what about it CMG guys and girls, do we help Saul achieve his dream? Please post about this.
This CMG girl thinks you are way out of line starting a thread like this. It doesn't matter if it's directed at Saul or anyone else. It's childish.
So I guess that you won't be contributing

david johnson
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by david johnson » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:15 am

I think it's more frustration than childishness. Saul is often very rude, as well as wrong.

dj

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:34 am

People pay too much attention to Saul. It takes two to play. He can't play by himself.
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:37 am

Well, help is now at hand. I'm so inspired by your patriotism I'm prepared to organise a fund raiser to help you fly to the country that inspires you and I'll kick in the first $25.
Terrible investment. How about giving your $25 to the Haiti earthquake victims?
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Madame
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:51 am

I had not read the most recent thread about Haiti when I replied to this one and didn't understand the deep level of anger and frustration behind it. I am sorry that I used the language I did.

It's a no-win trying to communicate with Saul on these matters, directly or indirectly. On the one hand, we (I included) feel a need to come down on him hard when he says such outrageous things; on the other hand, doing so is the payoff he seeks.

There are other options, like not reading his posts (but the dang subject lines are sometimes so irresistable :) ) . Perhaps when we feel our hearts pounding and blood pressure going up, we need to hit that little red x in the upper right hand corner and go do something else.

Corlyss is right, we pay too much attention to him ... and nourish the very thing we wish would go away.

SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:59 am

Only $25? And yet according to you I'm the poor one?
Let me just tell you that I'm not poor at all thank god.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Ralph » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:17 pm

I have no respect for Saul's extreme expressions of Judaism and Zionism but I do respect his right to hold and espouse those opinions. While the lead post can't be taken seriously (CMGers are not about to give money to each other), it smacks too much of "America-Love It or Leave It," a puerile and damaging part of our past political history.
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:33 pm

Ralph wrote:I have no respect for Saul's extreme expressions of Judaism and Zionism but I do respect his right to hold and espouse those opinions. While the lead post can't be taken seriously (CMGers are not about to give money to each other), it smacks too much of "America-Love It or Leave It," a puerile and damaging part of our past political history.
---------------

Its O.K. for Saul to express his opinions. I would suggest that he qualify his
statements as his own personal opinions and not those of the State of Israel.

Saul does not represent the State of Israel nor the opinion of every Jewish
person on this planet or even on this site. Hence a simple statement of
"This is my personal opinion" should precede his arguments. It may prevent
the disagreements which usually follow his many ill-concieved posts.

Agnes.
.

MarkC
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:41 pm

Ralph wrote:I have no respect for Saul's extreme expressions of Judaism and Zionism......
I do. But it's not highly palatable (and just about zero persuasive) when expressed seemingly without a broader perspective, and maybe that's sort of what you meant too.

IcedNote
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by IcedNote » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:44 pm

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

-G
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SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:
Ralph wrote:I have no respect for Saul's extreme expressions of Judaism and Zionism but I do respect his right to hold and espouse those opinions. While the lead post can't be taken seriously (CMGers are not about to give money to each other), it smacks too much of "America-Love It or Leave It," a puerile and damaging part of our past political history.
---------------

Its O.K. for Saul to express his opinions. I would suggest that he qualify his
statements as his own personal opinions and not those of the State of Israel.

Saul does not represent the State of Israel nor the opinion of every Jewish
person on this planet or even on this site. Hence a simple statement of
"This is my personal opinion" should precede his arguments. It may prevent
the disagreements which usually follow his many ill-concieved posts.

Agnes.
.
Agnes,

Of course that I am expressing my personal opinions here, and I don’t hold any office for the State of Israel and I'm not a Rabbi therefore I can't represent the Jewish people. All my comments are opinions, and I also believe that your comments are opinions too. I just don’t know what made you think that somehow everything I said must be more then that, I never think of this about your comments or anyone else's comments.

As to the Haiti thing, you know that I am not afraid to speak my mind and how I really believe and think, so let it make it absolutely clear that I am for helping Haiti and its citizens after this awful tragedy. If I didn’t think so I would have said so, but as I said, I am very much for helping them, that's not a matter of argument.

But I had a question which no one had yet gave me a substantial answer to:

Why Israel has to send help and aid to a country who votes in line with Iran and the rest of Israel's enemies, especially when Israel can use those extra resources for its own people? There is a major economical problem in Israel where hundreds of thousands of people live below the poverty level. Surely if it had to choose it should rather help its own people then send this aid to those who will not remember it, or appreciate it, or even change its voting practices in the U.N when its really matters for Israel.

This is a legitimate question that I want to hear an answer to. On what moral grounds Israel is obligated to help those who work against its people and its future?

Of course we had the Rabbi give an answer that we Jews are obligated to help even those we don’t know, and even if we will never be acknowledged for it, not by the receiving country or by the world at large. That's the Rabbi's answer, but what's your answer?

I ask Ralph, and our dear friend Corlyss, and Marc and our dear Agnes, and everyone else for that matter?

I also want to see in the future if Haiti will change its ways when it comes to how it votes in the U.N on Israeli matters, whether they will remember the great aid an help they received from Israel and Jews around the world, or whether they will continue voting for Iranian and Arabian legislations against Israel? That would be the most interesting thing to see.

So no one here is against helping Haiti, I just want to clarify a few points and to learn what other people have to say about the matter.

So far, I have heard things like delusional, vicious, insensitive, and other things, but no one is willing to give me a reasonable answer to my question.

If you think that I am wrong, please let me see my error using civil behavior , there is no need for name calling, this is not a personal discussion, no one here is the topic of the thread. We are exchanging ideas, and even when things are controversial and sensitive, mutual respect shouldn’t be eliminated.
Last edited by SaulChanukah on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:00 pm

I love how those threads ask fake questions without affording anyone the chance to answer them without some preemptive answer from a Rabbi and ridiculing of intelligent responses. No reason to pay any attention to them. Move on.
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:02 pm

MarkC wrote:
Ralph wrote:I have no respect for Saul's extreme expressions of Judaism and Zionism......
I do. But it's not highly palatable (and just about zero persuasive) when expressed seemingly without a broader perspective, and maybe that's sort of what you meant too.
And what might that "broader" perspective be?
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:05 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:And what might that "broader" perspective be?
I feel like giving the Louis Armstrong answer, "If you don't know I can't explain it." :)

But moreover, granting that it's hard to tell "tone" in an internet post, I get the feeling there may be some "feeling" and implied other message in there that goes beyond the question, and I don't know what that might be, not to mention if it's there at all. So I wouldn't know how to begin answering.

If you mean the question just simply and at face value, for the moment I'll stick to the Louis Armstrong thing. :)
I thought my post was clear enough. If not, sorry.
Last edited by MarkC on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:08 pm

MarkC wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:And what might that "broader" perspective be?
I feel like giving the Louis Armstrong answer, "If you don't know I can't explain it." :)

But moreover, granting that it's hard to tell "tone" in an internet post, I get the feeling there may be some "feeling" and implied other message in there that goes beyond the question, so I wouldn't know how to begin answering.

In any event, I thought my post was pretty clear. If not, sorry.

I would very much like to know what you meant by your post. Please elaborate. You respect his views yet you think they are poorly presented. What are these views that you respect and how could they be presented in a more "palatable" fashion?
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:09 pm

He doesn't take anything into account except his narrow interest.
In general, that doesn't make for good or impressive or persuasive material.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:13 pm

MarkC wrote:He doesn't take anything into account except his narrow interest.
In general, that doesn't make for good or impressive or persuasive material.
Yet you've explicitly indicated you respect his extreme expressions of Zionism? What does that mean?
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SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:15 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:
MarkC wrote:He doesn't take anything into account except his narrow interest.
In general, that doesn't make for good or impressive or persuasive material.
Yet you've explicitly indicated you respect his extreme expressions of Zionism? What does that mean?
He means that he respects my love for Israel and the Jewish people.

You call it 'extreme expressions of Zionism', trying to imply a negative connotation.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:20 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:Yet you've explicitly indicated you respect his extreme expressions of Zionism? What does that mean?
You're dissecting it beyond anything that was meant.

I'm not interested in getting into an extended debate on my very brief post. Posts are sometimes taken more literally than they should be, and in fact much in the world is.

If you scrutinized every ADAGE, you could quibble about all of them too. In fact, many adages have direct opposites, right? IMO the best game in town is to look for the meaning in something, not the un-meaning. In any event, if you don't, you'll forever be missing what someone means.

In this case, you're stuck on the first 2 words of my post, words that were meant just as a COUNTER to the denial of any respect in the post that I was replying to.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:21 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:He means that he respects my love for Israel and the Jewish people...
Saul, at least for once you nailed it. :)
And, as per the above post, I was mainly countering the flat-out lack of respect indicated in the post I was answering.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:27 pm

SaulChanukah wrote: Why Israel has to send help and aid to a country who votes in line with Iran and the rest of Israel's enemies, especially when Israel can use those extra resources for its own people? There is a major economical problem in Israel where hundreds of thousands of people live below the poverty level. Surely if it had to choose it should rather help its own people then send this aid to those who will not remember it, or appreciate it, or even change its voting practices in the U.N when its really matters for Israel.

This is a legitimate question that I want to hear an answer to. On what moral grounds Israel is obligated to help those who work against its people and its future? I ask Ralph, and our dear friend Corlyss, and Marc and our dear Agnes, and everyone else for that matter?
Because it's a trick question, that's why. And for me, at least, I don't buy your 'givens', so there is no basis for discussion.

I could ask in return -- on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?

If you think that I am wrong, please let me see my error using civil behavior , there is no need for name calling, this is not a personal discussion, no one here is the topic of the thread. We are exchanging ideas, and even when things are controversial and sensitive, mutual respect shouldn’t be eliminated.
Be very careful putting that sort of thing in writing :)

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:33 pm

MarkC wrote:If you scrutinized every ADAGE, you could quibble about all of them too. In fact, many adages have direct opposites, right? IMO the best game in town is to look for the meaning in something, not the un-meaning. In any event, if you don't, you'll forever be missing what someone was saying.
Well, what your post sounded like to me was a simple case of brown nosing to Saul, especially since you've refused to offer any real explanation. Given your recent posting trends, including your silly quibble about being "literal" in the Haiti thread, I wouldn't be the one advising others not to scrutinize every adage. Barring further explanation, your post about respecting extremist Zionist views was simply meant to be contrary for the heck of being a contrarian, which I've seen on more than one occasion as some form of protest against the management here.

If you want to talk about the grand scheme of things and finding "meaning", then it's best to elaborate rather than keep whatever "meaningful" knowledge you've gleaned from such posts to yourself. I look for meaning in everything too, and if you want to get super-metaphysical there's always something to learn, even if you wade through rubbish. But what's the point (aside from mental self-gratification) if you can't share what you've learned?
Last edited by living_stradivarius on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:34 pm

Madame wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote: Why Israel has to send help and aid to a country who votes in line with Iran and the rest of Israel's enemies, especially when Israel can use those extra resources for its own people? There is a major economical problem in Israel where hundreds of thousands of people live below the poverty level. Surely if it had to choose it should rather help its own people then send this aid to those who will not remember it, or appreciate it, or even change its voting practices in the U.N when its really matters for Israel.

This is a legitimate question that I want to hear an answer to. On what moral grounds Israel is obligated to help those who work against its people and its future? I ask Ralph, and our dear friend Corlyss, and Marc and our dear Agnes, and everyone else for that matter?
Because it's a trick question, that's why. And for me, at least, I don't buy your 'givens', so there is no basis for discussion.

I could ask in return -- on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?

If you think that I am wrong, please let me see my error using civil behavior , there is no need for name calling, this is not a personal discussion, no one here is the topic of the thread. We are exchanging ideas, and even when things are controversial and sensitive, mutual respect shouldn’t be eliminated.
Be very careful putting that sort of thing in writing :)

Why is it a trick question?

And to your question :"on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?"


On the moral ground that when someone helps you , you don't stab him in the back, you return a favor with a favor, its the basis of good relationships.

Now I want you to answer me, please.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:45 pm

Saul,

Children are dying in Haiti. All nations are willing to help including
Israel. This not quid pro quo it is a humanitarian obligation.
As I said before, you do not serve as an official functionary for
Israel, hence like everyone else you should be glad that Israel
and other nations are helping in this most awful of crisis. That is all.
I don't know why you continue with your tirade because it
brings you no friends nor does it bring friends for Israel.
I think you should stop right now!

Agnes.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:47 pm

MarkC wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:He means that he respects my love for Israel and the Jewish people...
Saul, at least for once you nailed it. :)
And, as per the above post, I was mainly countering the flat-out lack of respect indicated in the post I was answering.
Really? I highly doubt it, especially if it took you 4 paragraphs and beating around the bush to say that one sentence.
Well if you want to cherry pick extremism like that why not respect radical Islam or white supremacists who love "their own" at the cost of anything and everything else.

Ralph's post was quite clear in distinguishing the content of these expressions from the right to express them. I'd agree.
I have no respect for Saul's extreme expressions of Judaism and Zionism but I do respect his right to hold and espouse those opinions.
Last edited by living_stradivarius on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Mark Harwood » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:52 pm

Cheaper option: don't feed the troll.
:)
Last edited by Mark Harwood on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:53 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Saul,

Children are dying in Haiti. All nations are willing to help including
Israel. This not quid pro quo it is a humanitarian obligation.
As I said before, you do not serve as an official functionary for
Israel, hence like everyone else you should be glad that Israel
and other nations are helping in this most awful of crisis. That is all.
I don't know why you continue with your tirade because it
brings you no friends nor does it bring friends for Israel.
I think you should stop right now!

Agnes.
Is this fact or your opinion?

Cause I don't think that you’re right.

That's wonderful that Israel and Jews help Haiti and I am all for that, my question is on what moral ground Israel is to be expected to help those who work against them on the world stage?

If there is a moral ground, please let me know.

Of course I am all for helping Haiti whether they deserve it or not.

But please, can you answer my question?

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:56 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Madame wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote: Why Israel has to send help and aid to a country who votes in line with Iran and the rest of Israel's enemies, especially when Israel can use those extra resources for its own people? There is a major economical problem in Israel where hundreds of thousands of people live below the poverty level. Surely if it had to choose it should rather help its own people then send this aid to those who will not remember it, or appreciate it, or even change its voting practices in the U.N when its really matters for Israel.

This is a legitimate question that I want to hear an answer to. On what moral grounds Israel is obligated to help those who work against its people and its future? I ask Ralph, and our dear friend Corlyss, and Marc and our dear Agnes, and everyone else for that matter?
Because it's a trick question, that's why. And for me, at least, I don't buy your 'givens', so there is no basis for discussion.

I could ask in return -- on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?

If you think that I am wrong, please let me see my error using civil behavior , there is no need for name calling, this is not a personal discussion, no one here is the topic of the thread. We are exchanging ideas, and even when things are controversial and sensitive, mutual respect shouldn’t be eliminated.
Be very careful putting that sort of thing in writing :)

Why is it a trick question?

And to your question :"on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?"


On the moral ground that when someone helps you , you don't stab him in the back, you return a favor with a favor, its the basis of good relationships.

Now I want you to answer me, please.
I did answer you. I don't accept your premises. I don't answer trick questions. And I do NOT accept your definition of moral in regard to the Haitian matter -- it translates into something like coercion in my vocabulary.

That's my response. I don't speak for others.


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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:00 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:http://www.springerlink.com/content/n6l3971613210453/

'Nuff said.
Maybe a little TOO much, I'm not mapping it to the discussion at hand! What did you take it to mean?

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:06 pm

Someone asked for answers. There they are.
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SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:21 pm

Mark Harwood wrote:Cheaper option: don't feed the troll.
:)

Welcome back to planet earth, as you can see I didnt begin this thread.

SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:57 pm

Madame wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Madame wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote: Why Israel has to send help and aid to a country who votes in line with Iran and the rest of Israel's enemies, especially when Israel can use those extra resources for its own people? There is a major economical problem in Israel where hundreds of thousands of people live below the poverty level. Surely if it had to choose it should rather help its own people then send this aid to those who will not remember it, or appreciate it, or even change its voting practices in the U.N when its really matters for Israel.

This is a legitimate question that I want to hear an answer to. On what moral grounds Israel is obligated to help those who work against its people and its future? I ask Ralph, and our dear friend Corlyss, and Marc and our dear Agnes, and everyone else for that matter?
Because it's a trick question, that's why. And for me, at least, I don't buy your 'givens', so there is no basis for discussion.

I could ask in return -- on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?

If you think that I am wrong, please let me see my error using civil behavior , there is no need for name calling, this is not a personal discussion, no one here is the topic of the thread. We are exchanging ideas, and even when things are controversial and sensitive, mutual respect shouldn’t be eliminated.
Be very careful putting that sort of thing in writing :)

Why is it a trick question?

And to your question :"on what moral grounds can Israel justify pounding its chest and playing "after all I've done for you" to obligate Haiti to side with it in the UN?"


On the moral ground that when someone helps you , you don't stab him in the back, you return a favor with a favor, its the basis of good relationships.

Now I want you to answer me, please.
I did answer you. I don't accept your premises. I don't answer trick questions. And I do NOT accept your definition of moral in regard to the Haitian matter -- it translates into something like coercion in my vocabulary.

That's my response. I don't speak for others.
Let me take this discussion a little further:

I believe that at times we as human beings are morally exempt to give a helping hand to some people.
Lets take an extreme case as an example:

The ancient Kingdom of Egypt was hit by 10 plagues by the God of Israel as punishments for the enslavement of his people for 400 years and the refusal of Pharaoh and his aids to release The Jews from bondage.

In this situation, if you were living back then, seeing the great catastrophe that has befallen on Egypt you would have to ask yourself:

Do I send my contributions and aid to the Egyptian people for them to recover from their misery and destruction?

Or the second choice : Do I stand back, and not interfere with God’s judgment on the land of Egypt, for now I am not morally obligated to help those that God had chose to punish.

It is my opinion that in this extreme situation every decent human being would have been reluctant to interfere with God’s plan and action, to try to become more merciful then God himself.

Now, this case is extreme because the Punishments on Egypt came after clear and articulated warnings
By God’s messengers, Moses and Aaron , therefore the divine hand of God was evident in all those affairs.

But in other situations where we don’t know God’s plan, and we don’t understand his motives , and his actions are not so clear and evident, in short there is no great revelation to his actions, then we must behave in a manner that God’s expects us to behave and that is to give a helping hand to those who suffer and to those who were devastated, for we don’t really know what God’s plan was in all of this.

Let's now imagine a special case, say Germany who murdered more then six million of my people (with the intention to murder all the Jews in the world) in 1939 got struck by a devastating earthquake that turned entire cities into rubble and many millions of people (even children) were feared to be dead and in a need of a great assistance.

Should then, the Jewish people of the Diaspora join hands and donate money to those who planned our total annihilation and destruction?

I don’t believe that there is a single clear minded Jew that would go for such a thing.

Clearly we established that even in morality there are times that you are morally exempt from giving a helping hand to those who wanted/want to destroy you.

The Idea that one must give a helping hand no matter the situation is absurd to me, and even somewhat morally bankrupted.

Lets look now in the situation in Haiti and Israel:

The Jews in Israel are surrounded by many adversaries and enemies who want to destroy them and kill every single one of them. The famous ones, Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, Al-Quiada, and most of the Arab states want to see the very end of Israel. The fact that Israel is not destroyed and is strong shouldn’t be credited to Haiti.

When Haiti’s representatives publicly vote with Iran and the Arab states anti Israeli legislations, it is in fact showing with whom it sides with, and what its plans and thoughts are regarding the State of Israel.

Now the Jews who are murdered in Israel are not dieing from natural causes, they are murdered in cold blood. Haiti by voting with the enemies of Israel indirectly is responsible for strengthening the enemies of Israel, and also isolating Israel.

Corlyss said I’m paraphrasing here :

”So what that Haiti votes against Israel, it could never harm her”.

To that I say that the fact that the warrior wears a good shield to protect himself from the arrows, shouldn’t be credited to the one that shoots.

Israel is strong and powerful not because of Haiti, but because of Israel, because of God.

Who has ever been acquitted of stabbing someone just because the knife happen to hit the pen and didn’t go through the jacket?

So I feel that since Haiti’s actions towards Israel are unacceptable, and in fact dangerous for Israel, therefore Israel is not morally bound to help her in her time of need.

Israel helps Haiti because Israel is good, and not because Haiti deserves Israel’s help.

That’s my opinion, and I believe that I am entitled to my opinion.

If anyone likes to differ and offer an alternative point of view explaining why my opinion is wrong, please be my guest.

Madame
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:24 pm

Mark Harwood wrote:Cheaper option: don't feed the troll.
:)
Thank you ... :)

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:44 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:
MarkC wrote:.......Well, what your post sounded like to me was a simple case of brown nosing to Saul.....
You apparently haven't noticed most of my posts to him. :)

P.S. I'm not impressed with what you said about my input on the Haiti thread.
I nailed someone who deserved it.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:50 pm

MarkC wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
MarkC wrote:.......Well, what your post sounded like to me was a simple case of brown nosing to Saul.....
You apparently haven't noticed most of my posts to him. :)
Oh I have, but given your recent gripes with the way your posts were handled in the other room your sudden change of heart seems more like a very sly way to feed the fire.
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by MarkC » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:55 pm

OK, got it.
Your inference was 100% wrong.

From the beginning, I've said and demonstrated that my basic leanings and sympathies are essentially where Saul's are. However, I've also indicated that I find the degree and nature of what he does to be counterproductive from any standpoint, and in fact uncomfortable even to me as essentially an ally. The majority of my posts to him would probably seem superficially to most people to be "against" him, but I can understand that if you just see a few of them, and if you have some other inclinations as it seems you do (sorry), you might see this for other than what it is.

P.S. Please don't ask what I mean by "some other inclinations." All I mean is, whatever it was that made you assume here what you just indicated in that post.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Guitarist » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:01 pm

Corlyss_D wrote: He can't play by himself.
My inner 8th grader is aching to have fun with that comment... :D

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Jean » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:13 pm

I do not subscribe to the "love it or leave" concept. However, sometimes when someone speaks as Saul does...it's a tempation. I do think the original post, clearly intended tongue-in-cheek, was humorously written and right or wrong, I confess it made me chuckle.

I am sick of the sentiments that Saul's (or anyone else's) provocative posts should be ignored so as not to encourage. When someone expresses an opinion that expresses hatered, racial or religous superiority, and such...it is essential to comment. Not to do so implies agreement and risks validating those views. And the suggestion that responding is "an itch" or something to be learnedas though those that do are childish, is offensive.
Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. - Albert Einstein

I haven't got the slightest idea how to change people, but still I keep a long list of prospective candidates just in case I should ever figure it out - David Sedaris (Naked)

SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:21 pm

Jean wrote:I do not subscribe to the "love it or leave" concept. However, sometimes when someone speaks as Saul does...it's a tempation. I do think the original post, clearly intended tongue-in-cheek, was humorously written and right or wrong, I confess it made me chuckle.

I am sick of the sentiments that Saul's (or anyone else's) provocative posts should be ignored so as not to encourage. When someone expresses an opinion that expresses hatered, racial or religous superiority, and such...it is essential to comment. Not to do so implies agreement and risks validating those views. And the suggestion that responding is "an itch" or something to be learnedas though those that do are childish, is offensive.
Who has ever shut your mouth in here?

You seem to say whatever you want whenever you want, so say it.

Yes I have heard, you don’t like my opinions.

What else is new?

Madame
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Madame » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:46 am

Jean wrote:I do not subscribe to the "love it or leave" concept. However, sometimes when someone speaks as Saul does...it's a tempation. I do think the original post, clearly intended tongue-in-cheek, was humorously written and right or wrong, I confess it made me chuckle.

I am sick of the sentiments that Saul's (or anyone else's) provocative posts should be ignored so as not to encourage. When someone expresses an opinion that expresses hatered, racial or religous superiority, and such...it is essential to comment. Not to do so implies agreement and risks validating those views. And the suggestion that responding is "an itch" or something to be learnedas though those that do are childish, is offensive.
I don't think Holden Forth wrote this thread with tongue-in-cheek humor, maybe you have some inside knowledge about that. Interesting that it made you chuckle.

The point, Jean, is that people HAVE commented, over and over, and soon everything becomes about Saul. Not commenting does not imply agreement, it means it's not worth the energy any more. I don't know what you mean by your last sentence.

It is absolutely OK to learn a different way to respond (including not), when you realize that it's turned into a game and you don't want to play any more, and to share that option with others who are complaining about the same.

It isn't directed at those who have no problem with reading or posting in his threads of that type.

If you've been lurking as long as you say you have, I should think you'd be able to make that distinction. But your writing has a familiar feel to it, have you been reincarnated from another life? ;)

I don't have a sense of your own outrage toward Saul in his provocative threads, I must have missed something.

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Holden Fourth » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:16 am

I'll be very up front about this thread. I was so incensed about the Haiti thread that Saul posted that I felt I had to reply but I didn't want to involve myself in the invective being thrown about by other members who felt, as I did, that Saul had really crossed over the line this time. So I posted a thread that was a bit tongue in cheek (I never expected anyone to contribute) but had a valid point to make as Madame has alluded to.

That point is simple - put your money where your mouth is Saul! It's so easy to sit back and spout out the rhetoric from the safety of your NY apartment. Get your ass on a plane and go over to the Middle East. Face those you 'hate' first hand rather than sit weakly behind a computer keyboard and proselytise. Thousands of your brethren have done exactly that. Why can't you. Can we take your fervour seriously if all you do is write "Letters to the Editor".

I personally don't care about a person's race, creed, colour, religion and never have. However, your posts are starting to have their effect. I find that I'm becoming less enamoured of the Israeli state and a bit more appreciative of Islamic ones. It's your rabid obsession that has done this to me. I shudder to think what would happen if you were the Israeli Prime Minister. I suspect that others on this board are starting to lean the same way so it's possible that what you are doing is having the opposite effect. You could be promoting those you oppose without realising it. Does this make you an extremist?

Two last points:

I have now donated $100 to the Aussie Red Cross Appeal for the Haitians so thanks to the person who suggested it. Can others do the same?

Do we need a 'kill' button so that we can be spared having to see a certain members posts.

Jean
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Jean » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:19 am

Madam:
If you've been lurking as long as you say you have, I should think you'd be able to make that distinction. But your writing has a familiar feel to it, have you been reincarnated from another life?

I don't have a sense of your own outrage toward Saul in his provocative threads, I must have missed something.
I assure you, I'm myself and no one else. Perhaps though I'm not quite as unique an individual as I would fancy myself to be :)

I did think it was obvious that Holden was trying to get his point across in a humerous way.

I understand your point. I can also see the wisdom in it, on one side. A two edged sword though, and I choose, at least for now, not to let such rants go by. And I do resent engaging and then have Coryless post comments, implying that we are being childish, being insulting.

I assure you I am outraged by many of Saul's posts. I take them personally, as they are intended. Not that long ago there was a thread in which Saul went on about Germans. It was clearly hateful and bigoted in the worst, most dangerous way. I am a second generation American, and all of my grandparents and those that came before were German. My grandfathers and great-uncles and grandfathers all fought in the war. They had no choice, and they were not nazis. They all came from rural farms and their knowledge of what was happening at the time was in bits and pieces and highly skewed. They are good and kind people who to this day find it hard to accept that some of their own countrymen were responsible for such atrocities. They each experienced personal tragedy and hardship.
Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. - Albert Einstein

I haven't got the slightest idea how to change people, but still I keep a long list of prospective candidates just in case I should ever figure it out - David Sedaris (Naked)

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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:15 am

Jean wrote:right or wrong, I confess it made me chuckle.
:D See! You're already catching the spirit of the place. I was hoping it wouldn't take long since you've been lurking for a year or so.
I am sick of the sentiments that Saul's
Ah and yet you are irresistibly attracted to Saul's posts. Can't help yourself? Feel a compelling urge to lecture him? Lie down till the feeling passes. I'm waiting for Mark to learn what most of us learned a long time ago: it doesn't work or help. I'm hoping he will remember Einstein's definition of insanity eventually. He doesn't have the benefit of lurking for months. Saul has several good qualities: he shares with us his art and music, which many of us enjoy, but you should already know that.
When someone expresses an opinion that expresses hatered, racial or religous superiority, and such...it is essential to comment.
:roll: Gag reflex now engaged. Still takes two to play with Saul, so you go right ahead if that's your pleasure.

We have a lot of politically incorrect opinions expressed here. Death to the enemies of the country; what's wrong with Islam that its proponents can't get along with their neighbors; America is not perfect but it is exceptional; national security is the first order of business, not health care or welfare or elder care; social problems should be cured rather than funded; why can't the Europeans jettison their sclerotic economic practices instead of trying to bring down the American economy; America should learn from Europe, not try to become Europe as it is today; environmentalists have an agenda and it ain't the care of Mother Gaia; the UN is corrupt but makes up for it by being ineffectual as well; that sort of thing.
Not to do so implies agreement and risks validating those views. And the suggestion that responding is "an itch" or something to be learnedas though those that do are childish, is offensive.
Uh oh. Methinks the Pub is only going to keep you in a state. I thought you were non-political, and that's practically all we discuss here. Well, if you like being upset all the time, you'll enjoy your visits here. Antacids and ammonia tabs are kept behind the bar.
And I do resent engaging and then have Coryless post comments, implying that we are being childish, being insulting.
Don't forget "officious intermeddler."

For that Shoah thread, that's exactly what Mark and you and the others who upbraided Saul for his insensitivity to the Haitians were. If focus on the Haitian situation were the standard for propriety on this board, Lance and I should have shut down the both the music room and the Pub and prohibited any posts that didn't deal with Haiti. It was just more of the moral preening many of us have come to expect from the Left, whose feelings for downtrodden humanity are presented unimpeachable as well as superior to those of folks who question them.
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:20 am

Holden Fourth wrote:Do we need a 'kill' button so that we can be spared having to see a certain members posts.
Ric, you can identify friends and foes in your profile. Just insert the screen name and click the appropriate button. I'm given to understand by those who use it that it will block posts by those identified as foes. I've no idea what it does for friends. I need to see everything, and I probably could as a moderator, but I don't use them. I just don't read posts by people that annoy me unless they get involved in dispute and/or someone calls my attention to them. :D
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:22 am

Guitarist wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote: He can't play by himself.
My inner 8th grader is aching to have fun with that comment... :D
I knew some of our sharp guys would pick up on that. I very deliberately said 'by.' :D
Corlyss
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Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by Holden Fourth » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:30 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Holden Fourth wrote:Do we need a 'kill' button so that we can be spared having to see a certain members posts.
Ric, you can identify friends and foes in your profile. Just insert the screen name and click the appropriate button. I'm given to understand by those who use it that it will block posts by those identified as foes. I've no idea what it does for friends. I need to see everything, and I probably could as a moderator, but I don't use them. I just don't read posts by people that annoy me unless they get involved in dispute and/or someone calls my attention to them. :D
I don't view him as a 'foe' so I won't bother. Thanks for the info regarding that. I let myself get sucked into a debate I should have walked away from - we live and learn.

SaulChanukah

Re: "Let Saul Become a True Patriot" Fundraising Appeal

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:29 am

Holden Fourth wrote:I'll be very up front about this thread. I was so incensed about the Haiti thread that Saul posted that I felt I had to reply but I didn't want to involve myself in the invective being thrown about by other members who felt, as I did, that Saul had really crossed over the line this time. So I posted a thread that was a bit tongue in cheek (I never expected anyone to contribute) but had a valid point to make as Madame has alluded to.

That point is simple - put your money where your mouth is Saul! It's so easy to sit back and spout out the rhetoric from the safety of your NY apartment. Get your ass on a plane and go over to the Middle East. Face those you 'hate' first hand rather than sit weakly behind a computer keyboard and proselytise. Thousands of your brethren have done exactly that. Why can't you. Can we take your fervour seriously if all you do is write "Letters to the Editor".

I personally don't care about a person's race, creed, colour, religion and never have. However, your posts are starting to have their effect. I find that I'm becoming less enamoured of the Israeli state and a bit more appreciative of Islamic ones. It's your rabid obsession that has done this to me. I shudder to think what would happen if you were the Israeli Prime Minister. I suspect that others on this board are starting to lean the same way so it's possible that what you are doing is having the opposite effect. You could be promoting those you oppose without realising it. Does this make you an extremist?

Two last points:

I have now donated $100 to the Aussie Red Cross Appeal for the Haitians so thanks to the person who suggested it. Can others do the same?

Do we need a 'kill' button so that we can be spared having to see a certain members posts.
It has been a known thing that truth can have a double effect.

On the one hand it can cause people to really see things as they really are.
On the other it can generate feelings of rebellion, unwilling to accept the truth given, people turn and embrace the lies even more, its called denial.

How many times did you send your tax deductible contribution to help relief Israeli suffering from Arab terrorist attacks?

Never.

Your theory is that the 'Jews are rich, they don’t need my money , they can take care of themselves'. You'll rather help victims of a 'natural disaster, then victims of 'actual murder'.

And as to your outrageous comment that my comments made you hate Israel and the Jews, and that now you feel much more connected to the Islamic states and people, I say thank God for the sheep finally leaving for home. A person like you who will decide such a major decision based on one person's opinions from the internet without really knowing anything about him on a personal level, is problematic and disturbing.

Yes, ignore the fact that these Islamic countries openly dances on 911, and call for the destruction of the U.S.A and all the west. Also call for the forceful Islamization of all of the West, ignore all of this, just because 'Saul' states some opinions that are contrary to yours.

Is there anything more pathetic then this?

But you as a human being, can make choices, whatever they may be, and I'm not willing to shut my mouth and not speak my mind just because someone like you, who clearly has terrible time analyzing information and has a great talent for reaching the wrong conclusions, will not embrace Islam and Muslims.

Join them! go to them, I'm sure that they can spare one well carved out cave for you, where they'll give you a sit and a nice rag to put up on your head, and sit on your knees and yell your anti-Semitic quibbles for everyone to hear.

I will not grudge you this choice.

As to turning this entire site to a tornado against me personally for some days now just because I see things in a different light,(and I’m not the only one who holds these opinions, there are many Jews who feel more or less the same as I do about this, I guarantee to you that I made the research) is terribly unfortunate.

Some of you of are behaving like attack dogs. No one had asked you to join this conversation about Haiti, yet you join with great enthusiasm, and you speak your mind freely, you say what you want to me, and Corlyss has not stopped you, she gives you the freedom, yet you somehow are not satisfied and the only thing that you want is to make me shut my mouth, that’s the only thing that you want. This is nothing but communism that you are trying to promote.

I don't have to speak my mind in accordance to your sentiments, values and feelings. This is a website that was created for all opinions, no matter how different they are from one another.

If you can't handle the diversity of this site, then leave, and stop whining like 6 year old kindergarten children.

Its as simple as that...


You don’t like the post?

Ignore it!

You don’t like a member?

Add him as a foe!

You don’t like the site?

Leave!

But do not try to shut mouths!
Last edited by SaulChanukah on Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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