Founding fathers roll over in their graves

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living_stradivarius
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Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by living_stradivarius » Wed May 12, 2010 12:57 pm

"Go back to what our founders and our founding documents meant. They're quite clear -- that we would create law based on the God of the Bible and the Ten Commandments."-- Sarah Palin
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BWV 1080
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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by BWV 1080 » Wed May 12, 2010 1:36 pm

certainly the founding fathers of the CSA thought it a grievous error that God had not been written into the US Constitution
We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity — invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God — do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America.

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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by Ralph » Wed May 12, 2010 1:50 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:certainly the founding fathers of the CSA thought it a grievous error that God had not been written into the US Constitution
We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity — invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God — do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America.
*****

And look where it got them. LOL
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HoustonDavid
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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by HoustonDavid » Wed May 12, 2010 2:02 pm

Maybe THAT'S why some southerners are still fighting the Civil War otherwise known as
the War of Secession. We have a governor here in Texas who still want to secede. It looks
as though he is going to win a third term here, too. We definitely need more immigration
here, especially the kind of people who can vote against long-term employment in Austin.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

THEHORN
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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by THEHORN » Wed May 12, 2010 2:53 pm

Palin and other conservatives don't know what they're talking about.
None of the founding fathers had relifgious beliefs and views remotely comaparable to religious conservatives today. Jefferson in particular was not a real Christian at all,and had a rather low opinion of this religion.
He did not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the virgin birth and all that at all, although he had great admiration for Jesus as a moral teacher.
The founding fathers were determined to avoid theocracy in America. They felt that religion was a private matter for individual people and that government had absolutely no business making laws based on what is written in the Bible.
They were well aware of how oppressive governments linked with establshed religions had wreaked havoc in Europe over the centuries,and were followers of the enlightenment. Many were masons, a group despied by most Christians today and in the past.
Their quotes on religion have been taken completely out of context by religious conservatives in our time,misconstrued,and used as an excuse to advocate giving
evangelical Christianity power in America.
There is nothing wrong with being a Christian of whatever denomination; but we must be on guard on conservatives like Palin and others using the founding fathers as a pretext for advancing their conservative agenda .
Yes, the founding fathers are definitely rolling in their graves.

Modernistfan
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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by Modernistfan » Wed May 12, 2010 5:53 pm

Agreed--the framers of the Constitution knew their European history very well. They knew, for example, that Germany had been all but wrecked by the Thirty Years' War, which started as a war about religion. They also knew that France had been set back economically by a century or more by the expulsion of the Huguenots in 1685; many of them went to England and the Netherlands and contributed mightily to the economic growth of those somewhat less intolerant countries. Despite their own varied religious beliefs or lack of same, they were pretty determined that these mistakes would not be repeated in the United States. George Washington's letter to the Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, sent in 1790, made it clear that this same attitude was to be extended to non-Christian denominations. That letter is worth quoting here, and I do so:
Gentlemen:

While I received with much satisfaction your address replete with expressions of esteem, I rejoice in the opportunity of assuring you that I shall always retain grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced on my visit to Newport from all classes of citizens.

The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past is rendered the more sweet from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security.

If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good government, to become a great and happy people.

The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy—a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my administration and fervent wishes for my felicity.

May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants—while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

May the father of all mercies scatter light, and not darkness, upon our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in His own due time and way everlastingly happy.

G. Washington
At the time our first President wrote this letter, Jews were without the rights of citizenship in just about all of Europe except the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, and, even in those countries, there were still significant disabilities associated with open adherence to the Jewish faith (for example, no Jew was elected to the House of Commons in the United Kingdom until 1858, as its members had to take their oath "on the true faith of a Christian" prior to that date). The framers made it clear that the United States was going to be strikingly different.

What is the real irony is that so many conservatives, foaming at the mouth in their insistence that the Constitution is to be interpreted according to the intent of the framers, completely ignore the intent of the framers on issues of religious freedom and establishment of religion.
Last edited by Modernistfan on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by Chalkperson » Wed May 12, 2010 6:56 pm

Modernistfan wrote:At the time our first President wrote this letter, Jews were without the rights of citizenship in just about all of Europe except the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, and, even in those countries, there were still significant disabilities associated with open adherence to the Jewish faith (for example, no Jew was elected to the House of Commons in the United Kingdom until 1858, as its members had to take their oath "on the true faith of a Christian" prior to that date). The framers made it clear that the United States was going to be strikingly different.
Benjamin Disraeli was the only Jewish Prime Minister the UK has ever had, everyone else was/is a member of the Church of England, he achieved that Office in 1874...
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BWV 1080
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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by BWV 1080 » Wed May 12, 2010 6:59 pm

The first Jewish cabinet member of a government in the Americas was Judah P. Benjamin who served terms as Secretary of State, Secretary of War and Attorney General for the CSA. Prior to secession he was a senator from Louisiana and twice declined nomination to the supreme court

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Modernistfan
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Re: Founding fathers roll over in their graves

Post by Modernistfan » Wed May 12, 2010 7:07 pm

Benjamin Disraeli had also converted to the Church of England before he first won a seat in the House of Commons in 1837. Although he never attempted to hide his Jewish origins (his family were Sephardim originally from Italy), he cannot fairly be regarded as a practicing Jew during his long political career (as a Tory).

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