Is a Giant Mosque at Ground Zero Justified?

[lennygoran]

>Well, it so happens, Lenny, "them Jews" did not bomb
Lincoln Centre, or did they?<

Agnes did the Moslems who are putting in the mosque bomb anyplace--if so imo they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

> you welcome them to build a shrine to their terror right near the site of their worst murderous accomplishment on American soil.<

I didn't welcome them but I believe it's their legal right. Regards, Len

[jbuck919]

>Well, it so happens, Lenny, "them Jews" did not bomb
Lincoln Centre, or did they?<

Agnes did the Moslems who are putting in the mosque bomb anyplace--if so imo they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I also thought, given your wry sense of humor, that you might have meant that the Muslim center could have been built in the vicinity of Lincoln Center, or elsewhere in Manhattan near buildings associated with Judaism, and wouldn't that just have been a better choice.

[Agnes Selby]

My point is that to make 'legal basis' the sole determinant of the decision is to ignore the far larger and more consequential extra-legal considerations that apply in such a case. To grant planning permission in violation of community sensitivies is a queer sort of legalism -- one in which civic planning statutes trump public self-interest.

Allowing "extra-legal considerations" such as the emotions of some of the public to trump the rule of law is not my idea of what America is about. Nor is allowing religious prejudice to determine where places of worship may be located. Because what other than religious prejudice is really behind the objections? The paranoid notion that all of Islam is somehow guilty of the World Trade Center bombing and is plotting further terrorist acts against us. How does this kind of thinking serve the public interest? ("Public self-interest" is a new one on me.)

Cordoba House at Park51 won't be just a mosque, by the way - it's planned as a community center that will include a mosque along with many other non-sectarian facilities serving the people of lower Manhattan. You can read about the plans on the Park51 web site:

http://www.park51.org/landmark.htm

There's been a lot of loose talk about community opinion and values, with "community" enlarged to include anybody anywhere who has an opinion. But the community in which the center is to be built, with the largest stake and the final say, is New York City. An article in today's New York Times includes a summary of how this community - my community - has responded to the proposal within our legal, regulatory, and political framework:

Organizers talked with Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg about the plan in September 2009, at a Gracie Mansion Ramadan fast-breaking ceremony for Muslim leaders. A New York Times article last December about the project drew little negative comment.

In February, the staff of Scott M. Stringer, the Manhattan borough president, who liked the idea, suggested the organizers present it to Community Board 1, the largely advisory body that represents the neighborhood. Planners agreed to share information before the board and respond to expected questions about congestion and how the neighborhood could benefit...

Preparing for a May 5 community board meeting, Ms. Khan got support from her usual allies, like the United Jewish Federation of New York; Trinity Church; and the September 11 Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow.

Some people raised concerns about the feelings of 9/11 victims, but the meeting was dominated by logistical concerns and support from those who welcomed new facilities downtown. The board gave a unanimous yes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/nyreg ... odayspaper

That wasn't all, however. Some opposed to the project petitioned New York's Landmarks Preservation Commission to designate the site as a landmark and prevent building there. But the Commission turned them down with another unanimous vote, and our mayor - a Jew, by the way - then forcefully defended the project as a symbol of America’s religious tolerance. Here's a video of the mayor's speech:



Well, people everywhere can say what they like, and Republicans, including some far from New York such as Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, are trying to make political hay with the issue. Their conservative Christian base may well eat it up and swallow it. But finally the decision is New York's. American religious freedom began here, as a matter of historical fact (the mayor told the story), and it must not end here. For the rest, we're perfectly capable of making up our own minds, thank you very much.

----------------------
Regarding your last sentence,
indeed we Australians should keep our noses out of your business.
Perhaps the same should apply to our army in Afghanistan.
We have sustained enough casualties to justify your statement.

[lennygoran]

>wouldn't that just have been a better choice<

Possibly but it's their choice to make if they've followed the law. One thing I've heard is that their call to prayer has gotten some of the mosques closed in small European towns--wonder how NYC handles this--I have never heard a Moslem Call to Prayer anywhere in the city. Regards, Len

[Cosima___J]

[John F]

indeed we Australians should keep our noses out of your business. Perhaps the same should apply to our army in Afghanistan. We have sustained enough casualties to justify your statement.

You Australians and anybody else can say whatever you like, of course, and you will, and you have. What gets up my nose is the assumption many make that this isn't a community issue, the community being New York, but a world issue. And your own comments exemplify the paranoid anti-Islamic irrationality which I objected to:

It is rather strange that you are sacrificing the flower of your country's youth to fight the terrorists but you welcome them to build a shrine to their terror right near the site of their worst murderous ccomplishment on American soil.

We New Yorkers do not welcome terrorists to build anything on our soil, whether at Ground Zero or in the city dump. However, we do welcome people of all faiths, including Islam, to our great city, and we allow them to build their places of worship here and to use them lawfully. Mayor Bloomberg said it all, very eloquently, if you bothered to listen to his speech. You have a problem with that?

[Cosima___J]

Does anyone know whether the imam of the proposed mosque has publicly denounced the 9/11 attacks? It would certainly make many people feel better about him and his mosque if he has done so. Bloomberg's speech, by the way, was a really good one.

[lennygoran]

>Does anyone know whether the imam of the proposed mosque has publicly denounced the 9/11 attacks?<

What a timely question:

"Is ground zero mosque imam best choice for diplomatic mission to Mideast?...

The State Department plans to send Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam behind the controversial ground zero mosque, to the Middle East as part of a public diplomacy mission to explain how Islam is perceived in America. Critics are complaining the imam is too 'radical' to represent the US.


"At least two Republican members of Congress have come out in opposition to the plan, calling it “unacceptable” that the US would fund the travel of a Muslim religious leader who they say has been less than categorical in his condemnation of 9/11...

Rauf’s image may be moderate enough to have satisfied the Bush administration, but it is also true that he offered tough analysis following the 9/11 terrorist attacks that is now being used by some to question his allegiances. Just days after the attacks, Rauf said in a television interview that US policies in Muslim countries were “an accessory to the crime” and provided succor to radical Islam.

“In the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA,” he said."

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Po ... to-Mideast

Regards, Len

[John F]

The background of the project and those who've proposed it is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/nyreg ... odayspaper

These people are not radicals.

[Agnes Selby]

indeed we Australians should keep our noses out of your business. Perhaps the same should apply to our army in Afghanistan. We have sustained enough casualties to justify your statement.

You Australians and anybody else can say whatever you like, of course, and you will, and you have. What gets up my nose is the assumption many make that this isn't a community issue, the community being New York, but a world issue. And your own comments exemplify the paranoid anti-Islamic irrationality which I objected to:

It is rather strange that you are sacrificing the flower of your country's youth to fight the terrorists but you welcome them to build a shrine to their terror right near the site of their worst murderous ccomplishment on American soil.

We New Yorkers do not welcome terrorists to build anything on our soil, whether at Ground Zero or in the city dump. However, we do welcome people of all faiths, including Islam, to our great city, and we allow them to build their places of worship here and to use them lawfully. Mayor Bloomberg said it all, very eloquently, if you bothered to listen to his speech. You have a problem with that?

---------------------

We, Australians watched in horror the images of Islamists in Arab States
rejoicing and dancing in the streets the day after 9/11 and thereafter.
My personal involvement, John Francis, was to see my son's pain when he
learned that his best friend from Swarthmore College, Pa, was murdered
in those towers leaving a wife and a child behind. I think, John Francis,
you must have forgotten the contrast between the burning towers and
the joyful Islamists dancing in the streets.

However, no matter what sympathy we feel towards Americans, as
shown in the support we give you in a war which, as you say, is none of our
business or how many of our soldiers had died in your previous wars but because
we are your friends and allies, our comments "go up your nose".

It is a pity that the Arabs dancing in the streets did not go up your nose
or that watching your President standing idly by when "a Chavez" criticised one
of your States, something no Chavez would have dared to do standing next to,
say a president Reagan, Clinton or Bush. We also look upon with amazement
at you President bowing deeply to the very people who most probably
financed the tragedy of 9/11. None of this goes up your nose, John Francis?

Of course, it is your business who you welcome to your city. I hope,
for the sake of my friends in New York, your welcome will be appreciated.
and returned in kind.

Agnes.

P.S. I would like to add that I am not influenced by any idealogy
either Liberal or Republican in the American political sense.
I am an Australian viewing your unhappy political situation
from a far distance from the safety of Australia.

[Cosima___J]

Well said Agnes!

And no John F, it is not just a community issue! Is NYC just another city in America? Not really. And I guess most NYC residents would be the first to say that their city is oh so cosmopolitan. It's a world financial center. I hear it has a rather important garment district. Also happens to be the location of the United Nations. In the world of entertainment, you've got Broadway. Well I could go on and on about the reasons why NYC is a world class city. And as such, it is connected to people and places all around the world. We all have an interest in what goes on in NYC. Gee, even a girl from that backwater location of Georgia has an opinion about NYC and feels perfectly entitled to express it. So please get over yourself John F.

As Len would say, Regards, Cosi

[lennygoran]

>As Len would say, Regards, Cosi<

No, no, no--I wouldn't say "regards cosi"--I'd say "Regards, Len"--don't get me wrong. I think Cosi is a masterpiece! Regards, Len

[Cosima___J]

Cosi is a masterpiece! Very well said.

[lennygoran]

>Very well said<

Well speaking of things well said I feel this article from this week's Newsweek is very well said--and Mayor Bloomberg's well said speech on the mosque is considered well said too by the writer!

Build the Ground Zero Mosque by Fareed ZakariaAugust 06, 2010

"I believe we should promote Muslim moderates right here in America. And why I'm returning an award to the ADL. Ever since 9/11, liberals and conservatives have agreed that the lasting solution to the problem of Islamic terror is to prevail in the battle of ideas and to discredit radical Islam, the ideology that motivates young men to kill and be killed. Victory in the war on terror will be won when a moderate, mainstream version of Islam—one that is compatible with modernity—fully triumphs over the world view of Osama bin Laden...

The man spearheading the center, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is a moderate Muslim clergyman. He has said one or two things about American foreign policy that strike me as overly critical —but it’s stuff you could read on The Huffington Post any day. On Islam, his main subject, Rauf’s views are clear: he routinely denounces all terrorism—as he did again last week, publicly. He speaks of the need for Muslims to live peacefully with all other religions. He emphasizes the commonalities among all faiths. He advocates equal rights for women, and argues against laws that in any way punish non-Muslims. His last book, What’s Right With Islam Is What’s Right With America, argues that the United States is actually the ideal Islamic society because it encourages diversity and promotes freedom for individuals and for all religions. His vision of Islam is bin Laden’s nightmare...

Five years ago, the ADL honored me with its Hubert H. Humphrey First Amendment Freedoms Prize. I was thrilled to get the award from an organization that I had long admired. But I cannot in good conscience keep it anymore. I have returned both the handsome plaque and the $10,000 honorarium that came with it. I urge the ADL to reverse its decision. Admitting an error is a small price to pay to regain a reputation."

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/06/the- ... -zero.html

Regards, Len

[John F]

Is NYC just another city in America? Not really. And I guess most NYC residents would be the first to say that their city is oh so cosmopolitan. It's a world financial center. I hear it has a rather important garment district. Also happens to be the location of the United Nations. In the world of entertainment, you've got Broadway. Well I could go on and on about the reasons why NYC is a world class city.

You're telling me? I've never said otherwise; it's why I live here. But our doing all this for the rest of the world doesn't give the rest of the world a say in how New Yorkers live their lives, including what religions they may freely practice and where they may build their places of worship. That's for the New York community to decide, within the framework of the law.

We all have an interest in what goes on in NYC.

Depends on how you define "interest." If you mean "a sense of concern with and curiosity about someone or something," fine, and I have an interest in London and Vienna myself. But if you mean "a right or legal share of something," implying any degree of control, no dice.

[John F]

My personal involvement, John Francis, was to see my son's pain when he learned that his best friend from Swarthmore College, Pa, was murdered in those towers leaving a wife and a child behind.

Thousands of people died, including a number of American Muslims, and more thousands were bereaved, and while I'm not personally one of them, I feel for them all. But I try not to let my feelings warp my judgment.

I think, John Francis, you must have forgotten the contrast between the burning towers and the joyful Islamists dancing in the streets.

There were no "joyful Islamists dancing in the streets" of New York City on that terrible day. I can testify to that as I was there. You've gratuitously slandered New York's Muslim community by branding them all as terrorists - that's what you actually said - and I object to this in the strongest possible terms.

Over 600,000 Muslims live within the New York city limits. For twenty years I lived near one of the city's 100+ mosques, I shared the streets and shops and restaurants and buses with Muslims of all shades and sects in tranquility, and I'd still be living in my old neighborhood if the owners of my building hadn't sold it out from under me. These are Americans and New Yorkers as much as I am, and it has never occurred to me to treat them any differently from my many Gentile and Jewish friends and neighbors. And the New Yorkers I know feel much the same.

Now that you know better, it's time to withdraw your slander against New York's Muslims. Are you open-minded enough, and big enough, to admit you were wrong?

[living_stradivarius]

My personal involvement, John Francis, was to see my son's pain when he learned that his best friend from Swarthmore College, Pa, was murdered in those towers leaving a wife and a child behind.

Thousands of people died, including a number of American Muslims, and more thousands were bereaved, and while I'm not personally one of them, I feel for them all. But I try not to let my feelings warp my judgment.

I think, John Francis, you must have forgotten the contrast between the burning towers and the joyful Islamists dancing in the streets.

There were no "joyful Islamists dancing in the streets" of New York City on that terrible day. I can testify to that as I was there. You've gratuitously slandered New York's Muslim community by branding them all as terrorists - that's what you actually said - and I object to this in the strongest possible terms.

Over 600,000 Muslims live within the New York city limits. For twenty years I lived near one of the city's 100+ mosques, I shared the streets and shops and restaurants and buses with Muslims of all shades and sects in tranquility, and I'd still be living in my old neighborhood if the owners of my building hadn't sold it out from under me. These are Americans and New Yorkers as much as I am, and it has never occurred to me to treat them any differently from my many Gentile and Jewish friends and neighbors. And the New Yorkers I know feel much the same.

Now that you know better, it's time to withdraw your slander against New York's Muslims. Are you open-minded enough, and big enough, to admit you were wrong?

She's talking about Muslims in countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia that harbored terrorists and did nothing about them. Hamas and Hezbollah were exuberant that someone was able to touch Israel's ally. There was no mention of NY Muslims.

[Agnes Selby]

My personal involvement, John Francis, was to see my son's pain when he learned that his best friend from Swarthmore College, Pa, was murdered in those towers leaving a wife and a child behind.

Thousands of people died, including a number of American Muslims, and more thousands were bereaved, and while I'm not personally one of them, I feel for them all. But I try not to let my feelings warp my judgment.

I think, John Francis, you must have forgotten the contrast between the burning towers and the joyful Islamists dancing in the streets.

There were no "joyful Islamists dancing in the streets" of New York City on that terrible day. I can testify to that as I was there. You've gratuitously slandered New York's Muslim community by branding them all as terrorists - that's what you actually said - and I object to this in the strongest possible terms.

Over 600,000 Muslims live within the New York city limits. For twenty years I lived near one of the city's 100+ mosques, I shared the streets and shops and restaurants and buses with Muslims of all shades and sects in tranquility, and I'd still be living in my old neighborhood if the owners of my building hadn't sold it out from under me. These are Americans and New Yorkers as much as I am, and it has never occurred to me to treat them any differently from my many Gentile and Jewish friends and neighbors. And the New Yorkers I know feel much the same.

Now that you know better, it's time to withdraw your slander against New York's Muslims. Are you open-minded enough, and big enough, to admit you were wrong?

You must have missed the news on that dreadful day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They were jumping
for joy all over the Arab lands. I did not say it was the New York Mohamedans.
If you think they love you, you are kidding yourself!!!

[living_stradivarius]

As bigoted as the city's objections may seem, they do something important for American Muslims. The entire situation places pressure on the more open-minded liberal Muslims in NY to openly confront the nastier side of Islam as practiced the rest of the world. It won't be easy, since the money for the center comes from questionable sources.

[jbuck919]

You must have missed the news on that dreadful day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They were jumping
for joy all over the Arab lands. I did not say it was the New York Mohamedans.
If you think they love you, you are kidding yourself!!! But you can go
on loving them for all I care.

Well I knew that's what you were talking about, but honestly, can you hear yourself telling the world that actions should be ruled by whether or not they will even incidentally make a faction of inimical Muslims happy? Evil fanatics can and do interpret everything as going exactly according to their plans and predictions. The worst thing we could do would be actually to start second guessing ourselves because we were allowing people with that kind of mentality to influence us.

[John F]

You must have missed the news on that dreadful day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They were jumping for joy all over the Arab lands. I did not say it was the New York Mohamedans. If you think they love you, you are kidding yourself!!! But you can go on loving them for all I care.

And you must have missed the news that the new center is not to be built "all over the Arab lands" but by "New York Mohamedans" in New York City. Clearly you don't understand that this makes a difference, and so you don't understand the issue at all. Here in the United States we're not so weak as to bend our domestic concerns and policies to popular opinion in other countries, however stridently expressed. I'm sure you don't in Australia either, but if you do, that's your business.

[John F]

She's talking about Muslims in countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia that harbored terrorists and did nothing about them. Hamas and Hezbollah were exuberant that someone was able to touch Israel's ally. There was no mention of NY Muslims.

Which is why her comment is completely irrelevant to this topic, which is about New York Muslims and where, as American citizens governed and protected by the law and the Constitution, they may practice their religion. Hysterical ranting about demonstrations in Riyadh or Islamabad nine years ago doesn't advance the discussion.

[karlhenning]

If we allow the Islamophobes to marginalize America's moderate muslims, the terrorists will have greater occasion for glee.

Cheers,
~Karl

[Cosima___J]

73 posts. Pretty good for a "requested user that does not exist" Sometimes I sorta miss Saul. Yikes! But then I get over it.

[jbuck919]

73 posts. Pretty good for a "requested user that does not exist" Sometimes I sorta miss Saul. Yikes! But then I get over it.

And to think that I revived the thread with a post which at least two people thought did not belong in it.

[Daisy]

One aspect which hasn't been addressed in the debate is the power of symbolism and its role in Muslim triumphalist thinking.

Americans will interpret the building of the mosque as evidence (which it is) of the tolerance and openness of US society.

Muslems the world over may well interpret construction of the mosque on the site of the destroyed World Trade Towers as evidence of the triumph of Islam over Christianity/infidelism.

Well put, Jack, that's precisely why I said it was Politics, Saudi Style...

I agree. Never forget that the name "Córdoba" has a powerful meaning to Moslems. It symbolizes a great Islamic victory in Spain. Most Americans do not know that, since history is just not taught anymore, without a lot of revisionism. To me, this is not a question of trying to restain someone's right to worship, but a political symbol of Islamic victory right next to Ground Zero. Why don't we all just surrender then, grow beards and wear burkahs and stone women who step out of line? That's the sort of thing the Taliban and Al Qidah want.

[Agnes Selby]

One aspect which hasn't been addressed in the debate is the power of symbolism and its role in Muslim triumphalist thinking.

Americans will interpret the building of the mosque as evidence (which it is) of the tolerance and openness of US society.

Muslems the world over may well interpret construction of the mosque on the site of the destroyed World Trade Towers as evidence of the triumph of Islam over Christianity/infidelism.

Well put, Jack, that's precisely why I said it was Politics, Saudi Style...

I agree. Never forget that the name "Córdoba" has a powerful meaning to Moslems. It symbolizes a great Islamic victory in Spain. Most Americans do not know that, since history is just not taught anymore, without a lot of revisionism. To me, this is not a question of trying to restain someone's right to worship, but a political symbol of Islamic victory right next to Ground Zero. Why don't we all just surrender then, grow beards and wear burkahs and stone women who step out of line? That's the sort of thing the Taliban and Al Qidah want.

-------------

68% of Americans oppose the building of this shrine to the terrorists.
Yet, Patterson's suggestion of moving the mosque to another site has been rejected.

[jbuck919]

One aspect which hasn't been addressed in the debate is the power of symbolism and its role in Muslim triumphalist thinking.

Americans will interpret the building of the mosque as evidence (which it is) of the tolerance and openness of US society.

Muslems the world over may well interpret construction of the mosque on the site of the destroyed World Trade Towers as evidence of the triumph of Islam over Christianity/infidelism.

Well put, Jack, that's precisely why I said it was Politics, Saudi Style...

I agree. Never forget that the name "Córdoba" has a powerful meaning to Moslems. It symbolizes a great Islamic victory in Spain. Most Americans do not know that, since history is just not taught anymore, without a lot of revisionism. To me, this is not a question of trying to restain someone's right to worship, but a political symbol of Islamic victory right next to Ground Zero. Why don't we all just surrender then, grow beards and wear burkahs and stone women who step out of line? That's the sort of thing the Taliban and Al Qidah want.

The argument that the reference to Cordoba is a poke in the eye is entirely specious. First, even very educated Americans can be forgiven for not knowing that Cordoba was the site of a Muslim victory; it makes no sense to choose a defiant name if the people being defied have to rely on witch hunters to dig up and point out the alleged significance. Second, any reference to a site in Spain cannot be a symbol of Islamic triumph because the Muslims were eventually and decisively expelled from Spain, including Cordoba. If they had wanted to be provocative, they might have called it the "Jerusalem Center." Third, the name stands for a positive remnant of the influence of Islamic culture in a part of the world where they did not prevail, as does, BTW, a great deal in Spain, and is therefore symbolic of a meeting of cultures.

[Chalkperson]

73 posts. Pretty good for a "requested user that does not exist" Sometimes I sorta miss Saul. Yikes! But then I get over it.

I have a message from Saul actually, via Facebook, he sends everyone his regards and tells us that he is happily posting on GMG...

[lennygoran]

>Cordoba ...the name stands for a positive remnant of the influence of Islamic culture in a part of the world where they did not prevail, as does, BTW, a great deal in Spain, and is therefore symbolic of a meeting of cultures.<

Just a quick aside--my wife and I were in Cordoba--what a great incredible site the Mezquita is--today it's a cathredral but its moorish roots still are evident--highly recommended. Regards, Len

[jbuck919]

73 posts. Pretty good for a "requested user that does not exist" Sometimes I sorta miss Saul. Yikes! But then I get over it.

I have a message from Saul actually, via Facebook, he sends everyone his regards and tells us that he is happily posting on GMG...

Surely a match made in heaven.

[living_stradivarius]

If we allow the Islamophobes to marginalize America's moderate muslims, the terrorists will have greater occasion for glee.

Cheers,
~Karl

Hardly. Terrorists take whatever they can get, doesn't matter whether we stick to "principles" or not. In fact, they've been capitalizing on our political correctness.

It's good that liberal Muslims are fighting for their rights. It'll help us deal with our hypocrisy while allowing them to deal with theirs.

[living_stradivarius]

73 posts. Pretty good for a "requested user that does not exist" Sometimes I sorta miss Saul. Yikes! But then I get over it.

Should have left it at 72. Would have made the case for those afterlife virgins more convincing.

[karlhenning]

Surely a match made in heaven.

Well, if you say so, John.

Karl, what in the world was that? are you serious?
This was very tenacious, I wish it had some charm...

[karlhenning]

Never forget that the name "Córdoba" has a powerful meaning to Moslems. It symbolizes a great Islamic victory in Spain. Most Americans do not know that, since history is just not taught anymore . . . .

And since even great victories get blown under History's dust. Córdoba has not been Moorish for some little time.

Cheers,
~Karl

[HoustonDavid]

Cosi and Hank:

I had the same sense of deja vu all over again when I noticed Saul and Brendan's
names pop up when I back-tracked the thread, then checked the time-and-date stamp
and realized my error. I was even more embarrassed when I noticed the source of the
thread was Saul. And no, I don't miss their rants and raves. They were
both zealots on completely opposite sides of the same religious fence.

[jack stowaway]

So Brendan has been banned, too?

The board is a lot more...earnest, now. Or, as the movie cliche has it -- "It's quiet around here....Too quiet."

Maybe the administrators could start a sticky listing all of those who've been banned, just so we can keep track.

Another of the 'Desaparacidos' is Ralph. Has he also been banned for the outrageous tone of so many of his posts? [I don't need to post a smiley face, do I?]

Hmmmm. Maybe I should start a thread on 'Evolution' to flush out exactly which of our controversialists remain.

[Daisy]

Well said Agnes!

And no John F, it is not just a community issue! Is NYC just another city in America? Not really. And I guess most NYC residents would be the first to say that their city is oh so cosmopolitan. It's a world financial center. I hear it has a rather important garment district. Also happens to be the location of the United Nations. In the world of entertainment, you've got Broadway. Well I could go on and on about the reasons why NYC is a world class city. And as such, it is connected to people and places all around the world. We all have an interest in what goes on in NYC. Gee, even a girl from that backwater location of Georgia has an opinion about NYC and feels perfectly entitled to express it. So please get over yourself John F.

As Len would say, Regards, Cosi

Touche, ladies!
As we once said, "you can be so open-minded that your brains fall out."

[Agnes Selby]

I have just heard on the news that Obama supported the
building of the mosque near Ground Zero in an end of the Ramadan
speech at the White House.

Agnes.

[HoustonDavid]

Jack, you'd have to check with the management about the "banned" status of Saul
and Brendan. I was merely observing that they no longer seemed to be around, and
weren't missed on my account.

[John F]

President Obama's remarks:

Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the White House. To you, to Muslim Americans across our country, and to more than one billion Muslims around the world, I extend my best wishes on this holy month. Ramadan Kareem.

I want to welcome members of the diplomatic corps; members of my administration; and members of Congress, including Rush Holt, John Conyers, and Andre Carson, who is one of two Muslim American members of Congress, along with Keith Ellison. So welcome, all of you.

Here at the White House, we have a tradition of hosting iftars that goes back several years, just as we host Christmas parties and seders and Diwali celebrations. And these events celebrate the role of faith in the lives of the American people. They remind us of the basic truth that we are all children of God, and we all draw strength and a sense of purpose from our beliefs.

These events are also an affirmation of who we are as Americans. Our Founders understood that the best way to honor the place of faith in the lives of our people was to protect their freedom to practice religion. In the Virginia Act of Establishing Religion Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote that "all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion." The First Amendment of our Constitution established the freedom of religion as the law of the land. And that right has been upheld ever since.

Indeed, over the course of our history, religion has flourished within our borders precisely because Americans have had the right to worship as they choose -- including the right to believe in no religion at all. And it is a testament to the wisdom of our Founders that America remains deeply religious -- a nation where the ability of peoples of different faiths to coexist peacefully and with mutual respect for one another stands in stark contrast to the religious conflict that persists elsewhere around the globe.

Now, that's not to say that religion is without controversy. Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities -- particularly New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of Lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. And the pain and the experience of suffering by those who lost loved ones is just unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. And Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.

But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who led the response to that attack -- from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us also remember who we're fighting against, and what we're fighting for. Our enemies respect no religious freedom. Al Qaeda's cause is not Islam -- it's a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders -- they're terrorists who murder innocent men and women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion -- and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.

So that's who we're fighting against. And the reason that we will win this fight is not simply the strength of our arms -- it is the strength of our values. The democracy that we uphold. The freedoms that we cherish. The laws that we apply without regard to race, or religion, or wealth, or status. Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect towards those who are different from us -- and that way of life, that quintessentially American creed, stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.

In my inaugural address I said that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus --- and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and every culture, drawn from every end of this Earth. And that diversity can bring difficult debates. This is not unique to our time. Past eras have seen controversies about the construction of synagogues or Catholic churches. But time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values, and emerge stronger for it. So it must be -- and will be -- today.

And tonight, we are reminded that Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity. And Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been a part of America. The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan --- making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago.

Like so many other immigrants, generations of Muslims came to forge their future here. They became farmers and merchants, worked in mills and factories. They helped lay the railroads. They helped to build America. They founded the first Islamic center in New York City in the 1890s. They built America's first mosque on the prairie of North Dakota. And perhaps the oldest surviving mosque in America --- still in use today --- is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Today, our nation is strengthened by millions of Muslim Americans. They excel in every walk of life. Muslim American communities --- including mosques in all 50 states --- also serve their neighbors. Muslim Americans protect our communities as police officers and firefighters and first responders. Muslim American clerics have spoken out against terror and extremism, reaffirming that Islam teaches that one must save human life, not take it. And Muslim Americans serve with honor in our military. At next week's iftar at the Pentagon, tribute will be paid to three soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and now rest among the heroes of Arlington National Cemetery.

These Muslim Americans died for the security that we depend on, and the freedoms that we cherish. They are part of an unbroken line of Americans that stretches back to our founding; Americans of all faiths who have served and sacrificed to extend the promise of America to new generations, and to ensure that what is exceptional about America is protected -- our commitment to stay true to our core values, and our ability slowly but surely to perfect our union.

For in the end, we remain "one nation, under God, indivisible." And we can only achieve "liberty and justice for all" if we live by that one rule at the heart of every great religion, including Islam --- that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

So thank you all for being here. I wish you a blessed Ramadan. And with that, let us eat.

[Chalkperson]

So John, Agnes and Cosi can't speak out because they are not New Yorker's, but, it's OK for Obama to comment and ensure that something the majority of New Yorkers do not want to happen gets built, yet again he interferes in something that is not his business, using your logic, of course...

[jack stowaway]

Jack, you'd have to check with the management about the "banned" status of Saul
and Brendan. I was merely observing that they no longer seemed to be around, and weren't missed on my account.

I know for a fact that Saul is banned; but I'm uncertain as to Brendan's status. But he hasn't posted here, as far as I know, since the late, great religious wars.

[John F]

The difference is that the President is speaking up for the American way.

[Chalkperson]

The difference is that the President is speaking up for the American way.

Here is what Politico has to say about it...you know my (personal) opinion of all this, and, you know that I am non Political, my opinion is merely my own negative feeling about the "site" for the Mosque, it's going to be interesting to see this play out now it has the Presidential Seal of Approval...

Good Saturday morning. It's going to be one of the most memorable - and debated statements - of President Obama's first two years in office. Remember how much attention was lavished on his remarks about the Cambridge cop-prof confrontation? Well, this is bigger -- whether you think it constitutes Obama delivering on his status as a breakthrough figure on American history, or whether you see it as elitist arrogance.

PLAYBOOK FACTS OF LIFE: It's either what you always hoped about Obama, or what you always suspected about Obama.

In remarks the White House embargoed for 8:30 p.m., the president said at an Iftar dinner (a community meal to break the fast during Ramadan in the White House's State Dining Room: “Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. (Applause.) And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan.” (Full passage below.)

Key Republicans think the president bought himself a heap of trouble by sounding off on such an emotional issue after his White House had said it wasn't going to get involved in a “local” controversy. (And some loudmouth is probably on TV right now saying it's a way to change the national conversation from the economy - which it ain't.)

Mayor Michael Bloomberg got great national press for insisting that “we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves - and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans - if we said 'no' to a mosque in Lower Manhattan.”

But three months before midterms so close and consequential they constitute a national election, the president is coming out on the minority side of an issue where the country isn't narrowly split. A CNN poll released Wednesday asked: “As you may know, a group of Muslims in the U.S. plan to build a mosque two blocks from the site in New York City where the World Trade Center used to stand. Do you favor or oppose this plan?” Favor: 29% … Oppose 68%. Full results (8-page PDF) http://bit.ly/bfMtZi

Here's a peek at our e-mail as Washington reacted:

--A top White House official, on whether there was internal debate or if this was just something the president wanted to do: “Nope, he was crystal clear. This was a bedrock American principle, and however inconvenient, there was no way he, as President of the United States, could or would duck the question."

--EXCLUSIVE -- Michael Gerson, former top adviser to George W. Bush e-mails: "An enormously complex and emotional issue -- but ultimately the right thing to do. A president is president for every citizen, including every Muslim citizen. Obama is correct that the way to marginalize radicalism is to respect the best traditions of Islam and protect the religious liberty of Muslim Americans. It is radicals who imagine an American war on Islam. But our conflict is with the radicals alone.”

--A congressional GOP aide: “I'm not sure how much they read Gerson outside of D.C. … It doesn't make it right or reasonable for people to be upset about this. But the reality is those headlines are provocative because injecting himself into this New York-based, 9/11-charged issue is a provocative act. Those headlines are not going to play well in Peoria. … I haven't seen any [statements] from members. I'm surprised the mosque doesn't have marks all over it from all the 10-foot poles."

--A former Bush official: “Not from me, but this reminds me of a joke inside the Bush White House towards the end. We'd ask, 'What could we possibly do to drive our numbers even lower?' and then inevitably the President would go do exactly that.”

--A top Democratic aide, who insisted on anonymity: “This makes me very proud of the President. He spoke clearly and forcefully in defense of our Constitution."

--An influential Republican aide: “He's right, of course, about freedom of religion being a cornerstone of our country (nice to see a Dem mention that). But it's not something over which the federal government has control, it's terribly divisive, and he went out of his way to buy trouble when he was perfectly correct in saying it was a local issue. I think it's not going to buy him any goodwill he didn't already have, but that it WILL drive middle America crazy that he's getting involved.”

--A middle American: “This is too much. It's not insensitivity that's leading these guys to build this mosque. It's a monument to their conquer of the site -- just like the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem or the conversion of the Hagia Sophia (former primary church of the Byzantine empire in Istanbul) into a mosque” and now a museum.

--A top Republican strategist: “Do they insist on being against majority opinion all the time? Has he not read the reaction to Bloomberg's condescension?”

--Another White House official: “This stuff is serious and dangerous.”

--“Statement of Debra Burlingame, Co-founder of 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, in Response to President Obama's Remarks about the Ground Zero Mosque”: “Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see. … Now this president declares that the victims of 9/11 and their families must bear another burden. … We are stunned … We will honor the memory of our loved ones. We will protect our children, whose lives will never be the same. We will not stand silent.”

--Robert Gibbs on Aug. 3 (as noted in 2nd graf of Sheryl's front-pager http://nyti.ms/cM3Cga): “I've been asked about this a couple times. I think this is rightly a matter for New York City and the local community to decide. … I think you've heard this administration and the last administration talk about the fact that we are not at war with a religion but with an idea that has corrupted a religion. But, that having been said, I'm not from here going to get involved in local decision-making like that.”

--A White House official explains: “Thank you for asking. He decided that he wanted to speak to it and this was an obvious venue to do it in - but he never wanted to get ahead of the process they were working through locally in New York City.”

--FLASHBACK -- N.Y. Times “City Room” blog, Aug. 3: “[A] Muslim center and mosque to be built two blocks from ground zero surmounted a final hurdle on Tuesday. The city's Landmarks Preservation Commission voted 9 to 0 against granting historic protection to the building at 45-47 Park Place in Lower Manhattan, where the $100 million center would be built. That decision clears the way for the construction of Park51, a tower of as many as 15 stories that will house a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, and a pool. Its leaders say it will be modeled on the Y.M.C.A. and Jewish Community Center in Manhattan.”

--Remarks by the President at Iftar Dinner, State Dining Room, 8:37 p.m.: “Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities -- particularly New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of Lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. And the pain and the experience of suffering by those who lost loved ones is just unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. And Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.

“But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. (Applause.) And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.”

--A well-known Republican: “The White House seems to have no idea the depth of these feelings. And since he said it on a Friday night, this story will blow up over the weekend with no natural opportunity for him to explain himself. So then it'll build up for a few days and then they'll have to grant some morning show anchor an interview so that he can 'clarify my comments and stop the media's distortion of what I said,' thus further getting himself wrapped around the axle.”

--Keith Olbermann, on “Countdown”: “[T]he president will make his first comments on what's wrongly called the ground zero mosque … a community center, including a mosque, two blocks away from one corner of ground zero.” And then this segue: “If you didn't have net neutrality, you might have to pay extra to see mindless anti-mosque protests on the Internet.

--Daily Beast lead story, “Obama Is Wrong: While the project may represent religious tolerance, it also highlights the failure of moderate Muslims to condemn extremists and try to seriously reform Islam,” by Sam Harris: “The claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had 'nothing to do with Islam' is an abject and destabilizing lie. This murder of 3,000 innocents was viewed as a victory for the One True Faith by millions of Muslims throughout the world … And the erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory-and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice. … American Muslims should be absolutely free to build a mosque two blocks from ground zero; but the ones who should do it probably wouldn't want to.” Sam Harris is the author of The New York Times bestsellers, The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation. His next book, The Moral Landscape, will be published in October. http://bit.ly/9MrsB7

--A House Republican aide: “Did the Japanese build a monument of the Rising Sun over the USS Arizona? … But this president showed us all long ago he has no sense of what regular Americans in flyover country care about.”

--FLASHBACK -- Bush's ground zero speech (audio, video text): “I can hear you! I can hear you! The rest of the world hears you! And the people -- and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!” http://bit.ly/dA49UM

[Barry]

I agree with what the President said, but there is also an aspect of him staying out of an issue that doesn't involve the federal government. My position has been that it would be wrong for the federal government to try to override or even influence the New Yorkers who made the decision to decide against building it. So I'd have preferred that Obama stayed out of it.

However, I understand that he felt a need to re-affirm that basic American principle and don't have a major problem with him taking this stand. I know I often come out on the other side of these types of debates, and I still do think we need to be vigilant about radical Muslims infiltrating our society. That includes doing things like the Bush wire tap program that was so controversial. But denying the right to build what appears to be an institution that won't have a radical bent when the local government agency that decides these things approved it would be very wrong IMO.

It would have been nice if the people who want to build this agreed to move it further away from Ground Zero to avoid creating any bad feelings on a touchy subject. But they didn't, and I think that should be the end of the story.

[Agnes Selby]

No problem! He changed the meaning of the speech on Saturday.
I guess he did not check what his speech writers wrote for him.

[Cosima___J]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2 ... -Americans

"disrespectful" "insensitive" "deliberately provocative"
I tend to agree with those adjectives as applied to the Imam's decision about the placement of the Mosque.

I certainly agree with our country's great belief in religious freedom and tolerance for all religious groups. But I also think that the freedom and tolerance needs to be accompanied by sensitivity and understanding for the feelings of others. Why locate a mosque in a place where Muslims surely knew that controversy would arise?

[Chalkperson]

There are reports of the Developers being prepared to consider "other" Sites for their Mosque as long as it's still downtown, I don't think many people would object if it were just a few blocks further away from Ground Zero, I certainly would not...

As for Obama's remarks and his need to clarify/change them, it was his decision alone to make those comments, his Speechwriters had nothing to do with it...

[Agnes Selby]

There are reports of the Developers being prepared to consider "other" Sites for their Mosque as long as it's still downtown, I don't think many people would object if it were just a few blocks further away from Ground Zero, I certainly would not...

As for Obama's remarks and his need to clarify/change them, it was his decision alone to make those comments, his Speechwriters had nothing to do with it...

Thank you for clarifying the Speechwriter "thingo". OUR EVENING NEWS REPORT LAST
NIGHT BLAMED IT ON THE SPEECHWRITERS....