GOPer lies

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RebLem
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GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:01 am

The Plum Line

By Greg Sargent | June 7, 2010; 10:17 AM ET

Rand Paul distorts disabilities act, again

Makin' it up again?

Via Think Progress, top tier GOP Senate candidate Rand Paul has now published an op-ed in a Kentucky paper [The Bowling Green Daily News]
http://www.bgdailynews.com/articles/201 ... /comm1.txt clarifying his views of the proper relationship between government and the private sector.

Paul's piece is getting attention because he hails the idealism of Martin Luther King and explains why restaurant owners shouldn't be forced to ban smoking. But what's also interesting is that in the course of denying claims that he opposes the Americans with Disabilities Act, he floats a widely-debunked distortion about it:

Now the media is twisting my small government message, making me out to be a crusader for repeal of the Americans for Disabilities Act and The Fair Housing Act. Again, this is patently untrue. I have simply pointed out areas within these broad federal laws that have financially burdened many smaller businesses.

For example, should a small business in a two-story building have to put in a costly elevator, even if it threatens their economic viability? Wouldn't it be better to allow that business to give a handicapped employee a ground floor office?


Yes, but it's highly unlikely that a "small business in a two story building" would ever have to put in a "costly elevator." The Americans With Disabililties Act specifically exempts most buildings of this size:

(b) Elevator

Subsection (a) of this section shall not be construed to require the installation of an elevator for facilities that are less than three stories or have less than 3,000 square feet per story unless the building is a shopping center, a shopping mall, or the professional office of a health care provider or unless the Attorney General determines that a particular category of such facilities requires the installation of elevators based on the usage of such facilities.


As John Cook noted recently, Paul has repeatedly floated this scenario, even though it's been debunked. And he continues to do so. He wants you to fancy him a serious political thinker, but he either can't bother to get the facts straight or just keeps makin' it up.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-l ... stort.html
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

RebLem
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:25 pm

Rand Paul's ophthalmology certification not recognized by national clearinghouse

By Joseph Gerth • jgerth@courier-journal.com • June 14, 2010 | Louisville Courier-Journal

U.S. Senate candidate Rand Paul says he is a "board-certified" ophthalmologist -- even though the national clearinghouse for such certifications says he hasn't been for the past five years.

Rand Paul, who practices in Bowling Green, says he is certified by the National Board of Ophthalmology, a group that he incorporated in 1999 and that he heads.

But that entity is not recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties, which works with the American Medical Association to approve such specialty boards.

Lori Boukas, a spokeswoman for the American Board of Medical Specialties, said her organization considers certifications to be valid only if they are done by the 24 groups that have its approval and that of the AMA.

"He is not board-certified," she said of Paul.

The specialties board recognizes the American Board of Ophthalmology, the nation's main ophthalmological certification group. Paul had certification from that organization before he let it lapse after he started his National Board of Ophthalmology.

The American Board of Medical Specialties said board certification is important because it enables "patients to determine whether their physicians were appropriately trained and knowledgeable in their specialties."

The Courier-Journal began seeking comment from Paul Tuesday. When the newspaper tried to interview him at two Louisville events Saturday, he wouldn't comment.

"I'm not going to go through all that right now," Paul said while at the Great Eastern National Gun Day Show and JAG Military Show, in Louisville.

Asked when he would talk, Paul said: "Uh, you know, never. ... What does this have to do with our election?"

Jesse Benton, his campaign manager, said later Saturday that Paul would only answer questions submitted in writing. [I remember back somewhere in the late 1950's, an American journalist got to interview Chou En-Lai, the then foreign minister of the Peoples Republic of China. The fact that he would only answer questions submitted in writing was, in the U.S., universally considered an indication of the rigidity and lack of legitimacy of the Chinese Communist government. I couldn't help but think of that when I read this comment about Rand Paul. RebLem]

Boukas of the American Board of Medical Specialties said its 24 member groups, including the widely recognized American Board of Ophthalmology, have stricter standards for board certification than the other groups.

The Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure does not verify doctors' specialty training and instead directs people to the American Board of Medical Specialties to determine if a doctor is board-certified.

The American Academy of Ophthalmology recognizes board certification only by the American Board of Ophthalmology.

In an interview with The Courier-Journal shortly before the May 18 Republican primary, which he won, Paul said he was certified by both ophthalmological boards.

A spokesman subsequently said that Paul misspoke because the question was unclear and he acknowledged his certification by the American Board had lapsed.

There is no indication that Paul isn't qualified to practice ophthalmology, which he has done in Bowling Green since moving to Kentucky in 1993.

He is a 1988 graduate of the Duke University School of Medicine and has been licensed to practice in Kentucky since 1993. The Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure has never sanctioned Paul, according to its website, and he has medical privileges at two Bowling Green hospitals.

A review of court records in Warren County showed that he has been sued for malpractice there twice. He was cleared after a trial in one case and reached a $50,000 settlement in the other, which involved a patient who alleged he didn't receive proper care.

Rival board formed after disagreement

Along with his wife and father-in-law, Paul founded the National Board of Ophthalmology because the American Board began requiring physicians certified after 1992 to be recertified every 10 years to make sure they were keeping up with medical trends.

The Paul campaign issued a statement Saturday afternoon, saying: "The National Board of Ophthalmology is a non-profit group involved with continuing education and board recertification. It was formed in 1987 by over 200 young ophthalmologists who believed that all ophthalmologists should be recertified. ... NBO began recertifying in 2002. It is a completely volunteer organization that pays no salaries."

According to records with the Kentucky Secretary of State, the organization was first incorporated in Kentucky in 1999. On records in that office, Paul is listed as "owner/president" on some forms and "president" on others.

Asked what requirements the National Board of Ophthalmology has for recertifying doctors, Paul's wife, Kelley, who is listed on forms as the group's vice president, said: "I'm not involved in that. I'm not officially talking about that today.'"

After incorporating the board in 1999, Paul allowed it to be dissolved in 2000, when he didn't file required paperwork with the Kentucky secretary of state's office.

But he revived it in September 2005, just three months before his certification from the American Board of Ophthalmology was scheduled to lapse.

Paul said in a May interview that he formed the rival board because he had a problem with the organization treating younger doctors -- those certified after 1992 -- differently from older doctors.

"It annoyed me and a lot of younger ophthalmologists ... that people who were 55 years old didn't have to be recertified and those who were 45 years old did," he said. "So we thought if it was a rule, a good rule, everybody should obey it."

Paul has full hospital privileges

The American Board of Ophthalmology said Paul hasn't been certified since Dec. 31, 2005, when his previous certification expired. The American Board wouldn't say why the certification lapsed.

Paul, through Benton, said that the board is correct and that Paul has been certified only by the National Board of Ophthalmology since 2005.

"What he told me is that he actually has been certified by both groups in the past," Benton said.

Benton contended that Paul's earlier statement is consistent with the facts.

"I just think it was possibly an unclear question in the passing conversation," Benton said. "I mean there is absolutely no motivation to say anything that isn't 100 percent true."

Board certification isn't required to practice medicine in Kentucky, but most hospitals either prefer or require that doctors be board-certified. That includes The Medical Center and Greenview Regional Hospital in Bowling Green, where Paul practices.

Mark Marsh, Greenview's chief executive officer, said its medical staff's bylaws require that all doctors be certified or at least eligible for certification and awaiting an opportunity to take the test.

Allen Palmer, a spokesman for the hospital, said that once a doctor proves he is board-certified he or she is not required to maintain that certification.

"Apparently, after the initial review of board certification when a physician comes on board, it is not a continuing requirement for future credentialing," he said in an e-mail.

Doris Thomas, vice president of marketing for The Medical Center, declined to comment on its requirement. But The Medical Center's medical staff bylaws say doctors that specialize in one area of medicine must "provide evidence of appropriate training and eligibility for certification by an approved board in that specialty or subspecialty or, if not eligible for certification, possess equivalent qualifications."

The American Board of Ophthalmology requires that doctors take 30 hours of continuing medical education classes each year, review 15 case files and pass a 150-item proctored test. The cost of recertification is about $1,500 every 10 years.

The state of Kentucky requires doctors to obtain 60 hours of continuing medical education over a three-year period -- one-third less than the American Board of Ophthalmology -- to keep their medical license.

Paul has never sought recognition for his National Board of Ophthalmology from the American Board of Medical Specialties, Boukas said.

The National Board of Ophthalmology doesn't maintain a website; its standards for certifying doctors and charges for certification couldn't be determined.

American Board has 16,000 certified doctors

Beth Ann Slembarski, the administrator of the American Board of Ophthalmology, said her group has certified more than 29,000 ophthalmologists over the past century and that there are now about 16,000 practicing ophthalmologists certified by the group.

The American Board operates out of an office building in a Philadelphia suburb and has 11 employees, Slembarski said.

The group's board of directors includes 20 people from around the country, 18 of whom are ophthalmologists.

In comparison, the address for Paul's group is a UPS Store in Bowling Green.

An Internet search found only seven ophthalmologists other than Paul who say they are members of or are certified by Paul's group. All say they also are certified by the American Board of Ophthalmology; none returned phone calls to their offices.

Reporter Joseph Gerth can be reached at (502) 582-4702.

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/ ... aringhouse
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Barry
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by Barry » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:19 am

No point in bothering with Democratic candidates when you can go right to the big Kahuna: http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2009/0 ... bamas.html

And of course, this doesn't even include the numerous lies he told on the budgetary and tax impact of the health care reform package (sure, he can claim that because some of the costs of the package were re-directed to other parts of the budget, that technically, the budget wasn't adversely impacted, but most of us understand that that kind of bait and switch tactic is the same thing as a lie).

Oh, and let's not forget this from the campaign:

The Washtington Post Fact Checker:

Addressing civil rights activists in Selma, Ala., a year ago, Sen. Barack Obama traced his “very existence” to the generosity of the Kennedy family, which he said paid for his Kenyan father to travel to America on a student scholarship and thus meet his Kansan mother.

The Camelot connection has become part of the mythology surrounding Obama’s bid for the Democratic presidential nomination. After Caroline Kennedy endorsed his candidacy in January, Newsweek commentator Jonathan Alter reported that she had been struck by the extraordinary way in which “history replays itself” and by how “two generations of two families — separated by distance, culture and wealth — can intersect in strange and wonderful ways.”

It is a touching story — but the key details are either untrue or grossly oversimplified.

Contrary to Obama’s claims in speeches in January at American University and in Selma last year, the Kennedy family did not provide the funding for a September 1959 airlift of 81 Kenyan students to the United States that included Obama’s father. According to historical records and interviews with participants, the Kennedys were first approached for support for the program nearly a year later, in July 1960. The family responded with a $100,000 donation, most of which went to pay for a second airlift in September 1960.

Obama spokesman Bill Burton acknowledged yesterday that the senator from Illinois had erred in crediting the Kennedy family with a role in his father’s arrival in the United States. He said the Kennedy involvement in the Kenya student program apparently “started 48 years ago, not 49 years ago as Obama has mistakenly suggested in the past.”

Obama’s Selma speech offers a very confused chronology of both the Kenya student program and the civil rights movement. Relating the story of how his parents met, Obama said: “There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Junior was born. So don’t tell me I don’t have a claim on Selma, Alabama.”

After bloggers pointed out that the Selma bridge protest occurred four years after Obama’s birth, a spokesman explained that the senator was referring to the civil rights movement in general, rather than any one event.


Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/john-steph ... z0qvcphkif
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

RebLem
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:55 am

Oil Spill, Foreign Help and the Jones Act

June 23, 2010 | http://www.factcheck.org/2010/06/oil-sp ... jones-act/

Corrected: July 1, 2010 Q: Did Obama turn down foreign offers of assistance in cleaning up the Gulf oil spill? Did he refuse to waive Jones Act restrictions on foreign-flag vessels?

A: No to both questions. So far, offers from six foreign countries or entities have been accepted and only one offer has been rejected. Fifteen foreign-flag vessels are working on the cleanup, and none required a waiver.

FULL QUESTION

Is it true that Obama blocked foreign help with cleaning up the Gulf oil spill because he refused to waive the Jones Act, which requires all boats to be American made and crewed by Americans to work in U.S. waters, even though it has been routinely waived for similar events?

FULL ANSWER

We’ve received several questions about the federal government’s response to the oil spill. This one claims that a provision of the Merchant Marine Act, called the Jones Act, has prohibited foreign vessels from entering U.S. waters and assisting in the cleanup.

Some critics have charged — falsely — that Obama’s refusal to waive the Jones Act has kept foreign vessels from assisting in cleanup efforts. In a June 23 interview on "Fox & Friends," Republican Rep. Charles Djou of Hawaii was asked by show host Gretchen Carlson about the Jones Act and why the administration was refusing foreign assistance. Djou answered:

Djou, June 23: It’s important that we take help from whomever and wherever they’re willing to offer it. … So why are we not waiving the Jones Act to allow international help to come in? … Why we’re not waiving it here … is baffling.

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, both Republicans, have also claimed that the Jones Act, which was temporarily lifted by President Bush after Hurricane Katrina, is now standing in the way of foreign vessels bringing assistance to the United States. They are both incorrect. Palin stated this in an interview with Fox News’ Greta Van Susteren:

Palin, June 11: For one, there needs to be a waiving of the Jones Act so that we could have had many, many days ago, weeks ago, some help with skimmers from elsewhere, besides just U.S. flagships, come over and help in this tragedy. And that order needs to be given to [Coast Guard] Admiral [Thad] Allen right now. It’s amazing to me and to so many others that though President Bush had been able to waive Jones Act provisions for Katrina, President Obama hasn’t thought to do that yet? And yet surely, that has been suggested by those experts around him.

In reality, the Jones Act has yet to be an issue in the response efforts. The Deepwater Horizon response team reported in a June 15 press release that there are 15 foreign flagged ships currently participating in the oil spill cleanup. None of them needed a waiver because the Jones Act does not apply. The Jones Act is a trade and commerce law that was enacted in 1920 as part of a larger Marine Merchant Act. It requires all trade delivered between U.S. ports to be carried in U.S. flagged vessels constructed in the United States and owned by American citizens. The law states its purpose is to develop a merchant marine for national defense and commerce.

Why was the Jones Act waived as part of the Hurricane Katrina response, and why hasn’t it been waived now? Katrina inflicted massive infrastructure damage, which restricted the availability of key resources. According to the Deepwater Horizon response team: "A Jones Act waiver was granted during Hurricane Katrina due to the significant disruption in the production and transportation of petroleum and/or refined petroleum products in the region during that emergency and the impact this had on national defense." The Deepwater Horizon spill has yet to affect infrastructure or oil and gas availability; the damage is environmental, and foreign vessels are approved for delivering resources and conducting offshore skimming. Although the Jones Act is currently not applicable, the federal government has taken steps to expedite the waiver process should the oil spill response require a Jones Act waiver for trade and commerce.

Also, contrary to reports such as the one on "Fox & Friends," international assistance has been accepted. To date, 25 countries and four international organizations have offered support in the form of skimming vessels, containment and fire boom, technical assistance and response solutions, among others. A chart provided by the State Department shows that as of June 23 offers from six foreign countries or entities had been accepted. Fifty more offers were under consideration — including multiple offers from a single country or entity. One offer had been declined: France offered a chemical dispersant that is not approved for use in the United States. President Barack Obama described this process in his May 27 press conference:

Obama, May 27: The job of our response team is to say, okay, if 17 countries have offered equipment and help, let’s evaluate what they’ve offered: How fast can it get here? Is it actually going to be redundant, or will it actually add to the overall effort — because in some cases, more may not actually be better. And decisions have been made based on the best information available that says here’s what we need right now. It may be that a week from now or two weeks from now or a month from now the offers from some of those countries might be more effectively utilized.

Each offer must be compliant not only with the needs outlined by the Unified Command, but also with U.S. safety regulations. The Unified Command provided us with this statement and information:

Unified Command, June 22: Those offers of international assistance that were not accepted, while greatly appreciated, did not meet the operational requirements of the Unified Command. These offers have not been declined because they may be needed in the future as response strategies change. Some challenges in accepting these offers included:

■Equipment failed to meet US requirements/specifications (i.e. dispersant not on approved list/containment boom made of non-approved material)
■Contingencies placed on the offers proved logistically impracticable when compared to other sources.
■In one instance, the offering country’s export laws prohibited delivery of the assistance
■Contingencies placed on the offers made it difficult for the Unified Command to meet the contingency
Also, all offers, except for a few, come with a serious price tag. The Associated Press compared these offers with recent aid that the U.S. gave to some of these countries. The AP reported:

Associated Press, June 18: U.S. disaster aid is almost always free of charge; other nations expect the U.S. to pay for help.

"These offers are not typically offers of aid," said Lt. Erik Halvorson, a Coast Guard spokesman. "Normally, they are offers to sell resources to BP or the U.S. government."

Reports claiming that the federal government has refused help are not only incorrect — foreign assistance has been utilized — but are also misleading: purchasing resources and expertise is vastly different from accepting "foreign aid."

–Joshua Goldman

Correction, July 1: As of June 23, the U.S. had accepted six offers of assistance from six foreign countries or entities. The original post said five offers were accepted. We have updated the post to include the correct number.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Barry
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by Barry » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:37 am

Today’s Obama Lie Exposed: Majority of Americans Will Lose Employer Health Plans in 3 Years
Posted by Jim Hoft on Saturday, June 12, 2010, 1:23 PM

Do you remember when Barack Obama promised Americans that they would not lose their health insurance under Obamacare?

He lied.

A majority of Americans will lose their company sponsored health plans within 3 years.

(Investors)

Investors reported, via Doug Ross:

Internal administration documents reveal that up to 51% of employers may have to relinquish their current health care coverage because of ObamaCare.

Small firms will be even likelier to lose existing plans.

The “midrange estimate is that 66% of small employer plans and 45% of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfathered status by the end of 2013,” according to the document.

In the worst-case scenario, 69% of employers — 80% of smaller firms — would lose that status, exposing them to far more provisions under the new health law.

The 83-page document, a joint project of the departments of Health and Human Services, Labor and the IRS, examines the effects that ObamaCare’s regulations would have on existing, or “grandfathered,” employer-based health care plans.

Of course, the fact that Obama would mislead the American people to ram through his radical agenda should surprise no one.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/20 ... n-3-years/
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:25 pm

Barry wrote:Today’s Obama Lie Exposed: Majority of Americans Will Lose Employer Health Plans in 3 Years
Posted by Jim Hoft on Saturday, June 12, 2010, 1:23 PM

Do you remember when Barack Obama promised Americans that they would not lose their health insurance under Obamacare?

He lied.

A majority of Americans will lose their company sponsored health plans within 3 years.

(Investors)

Investors reported, via Doug Ross:

Internal administration documents reveal that up to 51% of employers may have to relinquish their current health care coverage because of ObamaCare.

Small firms will be even likelier to lose existing plans.

The “midrange estimate is that 66% of small employer plans and 45% of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfathered status by the end of 2013,” according to the document.

In the worst-case scenario, 69% of employers — 80% of smaller firms — would lose that status, exposing them to far more provisions under the new health law.

The 83-page document, a joint project of the departments of Health and Human Services, Labor and the IRS, examines the effects that ObamaCare’s regulations would have on existing, or “grandfathered,” employer-based health care plans.

Of course, the fact that Obama would mislead the American people to ram through his radical agenda should surprise no one.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/20 ... n-3-years/
This is what I've mentioned before - Obama is using Saul Alinksy's tactic of saying the opposite of what your doing.

The intentions of Obamacare were/are to raise premiums, force more people to lose their employer sponsored plans, and to generally make the private healthcare system worse and set the stage for a full government takeover and rationing of healthcare.

Because by and large the public doesn't want this, the only way to advance is with "how can we fool them today". In this case say the opposite everything Obamacare will do. It's going to raise premiums, say it's going to lower them; it's going to force people to lose their current plans, say it allows them to keep what they currently have; it's going to force healthcare rationing, say they aren't going to ration care.

And he just does this over and over again on issue after issue and it goes unreported. I don't know what's scarier - that we've elected a President that is doing this, or that we've elected a President that's doing this and barely anyone even notices or says so.

Like many other current happenings, it's truly Orwellian, and ought to profoundly disturb everyone - even the troops.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

RebLem
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:37 pm

You guys just can't quit the hate and the lies, can you? BTW, I wrote about what has already happened and the lies the GOPers are telling about what has already happened, and you're saying Obama is lying about the future. To accept this, we must accept your predictions about the future as infallibly accurate, which no one in his right mind does. And, of course, Obama is doing this deliberately because he is evil. As far as I'm concerned, its just more racist claptrap.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

rwetmore
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:26 pm

RebLem wrote:And, of course, Obama is doing this deliberately because he is evil.
No, he's doing it because it's the only way he can advance his agenda that he knows the vast majority of the country doesn't want. Do you understand? If he actually says what he wants to do and why, he not only couldn't have gotten elected but he never could have even gotten the nomination either. The only way he can advance is with "how can we fool them today" - this is their MO (modeled from Alinsky's Rules for Radicals). He and those around him have consciously chosen to operate this way on a regular basis. I'm sure the rationalization he's using for being a fraud is in the name of the oppressed poor and minority he thinks his agenda and policies are going to help. The mentality is probably something like this: "They've screwed these people (the majority) - they deserve to be lied too and fooled...look at the evil things they've done to these people." In other words, in Obama's mind, they are too small in number to effect change for themselves, so he is going to do it for them by getting even via scamming the majority by saying the opposite of what he's doing (among other things).

Now this kind of mentality and behavior is extremely dangerous and disturbing. It should be to anyone regardless of political or ideological persuasion. As Madison has famously said, the desire for power and control are "sown in the nature of man". This is the inherent danger here. It's truly Orwellian stuff.

For the life of me, I just can't believe how many people that this guy still has snowed.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

HoustonDavid
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: GOPer lies

Post by HoustonDavid » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:47 pm

Randall, I hereby dub thee Sir Knight of the Dubious Conspiracies. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

rwetmore
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:58 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Randall, I hereby dub thee Sir Knight of the Dubious Conspiracies. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm glad to see you're so certain they're dubious. I'm probably equally certain that you're duped, except I don't find it funny.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

HoustonDavid
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: GOPer lies

Post by HoustonDavid » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:13 pm

Of course, you're certain. You couldn't qualify as a "Knight of the Dubious Conspiracies"
unless you were absolutely convinced they were real. Let's see: the AGW scientists are
conspiring to take over the world, but they seem to be in conflict with the insurance
companies President Obama is in league with. Does that mean we're in for a conflict of
interest? Those who believe the continuing drip of the icebergs isn't real or those who
believe the doctors are going to swindle us out of our hospital beds and invest in evil
government-sponsored health insurance?
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

piston
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by piston » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:26 pm

What I would like to discuss, openly and candidly, perhaps on another thread, is what would be the impact today, not millenia ago, of a planet warming up by one degree, two degrees, three, and to totally exclude from that exchange the "man-made" issue, completely! I find that in adopting an ultra-defensive position, skeptics of global warming do not even want to talk about that. The whole topic of "warming" is too irritating to them.

That's what a number of scientists have been asked to report on, leaving aside all controversial issues. Of course it's a forecast, once again, because there is no point of reference pertaining to these times of densily populated regions of the planet.

According to this report of the National Research Council, these would be some of the effects for every additional one-degree Celsius:
According to the report, for every degree Celsius of warming, impacts include:

* A 5 to 15 percent lower yield for some crops, including corn in Africa and the U.S., and wheat in India
* A 3 to 10 percent increase in heavy rainfall globally
* A 5 to 10 percent drop in rainfall in southwestern North America, southern Africa and the Mediterranean, among other precipitation changes
* A 5 to 10 percent change (increases in some regions, decreases in others) in stream flow in many river basins globally
* A 15 to 25 percent decrease in the extent of Arctic Ocean sea ice
Surely, one cannot expect the status quo if the average temperature on this planet increases by one degree Celsius. It may seem a ridiculously small increase but it would nevertheless set a new, warmer, global average.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

rwetmore
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:00 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Of course, you're certain. You couldn't qualify as a "Knight of the Dubious Conspiracies" unless you were absolutely convinced they were real.
Actually, the thing about Obama's motivations is conjecture on my part. I can't know for certain what's in his mind. I suppose it's possible he believes what he's saying; however, I don't believe it fits in with what I feel is a preponderance of the evidence to the contrary.
HoustonDavid wrote:Let's see: the AGW scientists are
conspiring to take over the world,
I've never made any such claim that AGW scientists are conspiring to take over the world.
HoustonDavid wrote:but they seem to be in conflict with the insurance
companies President Obama is in league with. Does that mean we're in for a conflict of
interest? Those who believe the continuing drip of the icebergs isn't real or those who
believe the doctors are going to swindle us out of our hospital beds and invest in evil
government-sponsored health insurance?
I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about here.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

rwetmore
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:32 pm

piston wrote:What I would like to discuss, openly and candidly, perhaps on another thread, is what would be the impact today, not millenia ago, of a planet warming up by one degree, two degrees, three, and to totally exclude from that exchange the "man-made" issue, completely! I find that in adopting an ultra-defensive position, skeptics of global warming do not even want to talk about that. The whole topic of "warming" is too irritating to them.
No, it isn't irritating at all. It is actually the first hurdle of the issue and should be the starting point. But you are right, this isn't the right thread for it.
piston wrote:That's what a number of scientists have been asked to report on, leaving aside all controversial issues. Of course it's a forecast, once again, because there is no point of reference pertaining to these times of densily populated regions of the planet.

According to this report of the National Research Council, these would be some of the effects for every additional one-degree Celsius:
According to the report, for every degree Celsius of warming, impacts include:

* A 5 to 15 percent lower yield for some crops, including corn in Africa and the U.S., and wheat in India
* A 3 to 10 percent increase in heavy rainfall globally
* A 5 to 10 percent drop in rainfall in southwestern North America, southern Africa and the Mediterranean, among other precipitation changes
* A 5 to 10 percent change (increases in some regions, decreases in others) in stream flow in many river basins globally
* A 15 to 25 percent decrease in the extent of Arctic Ocean sea ice
OK, on what scientific basis are these forecast claims being made? Those are awfully specific claims.
piston wrote:Surely, one cannot expect the status quo if the average temperature on this planet increases by one degree Celsius.
Oh, I doubt an increase of 1 C would have much impact at all. We've seen an increase this past century of about 0.6 C, which has been barely noticeable. We also know that it was likely warmer than today during the Medieval period - maybe as much as 1-3 C warmer. It was during this period that the Vikings settled Greenland and farmed there, for example.
Last edited by rwetmore on Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

Barry
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by Barry » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:36 pm

RebLem wrote:You guys just can't quit the hate and the lies, can you? BTW, I wrote about what has already happened and the lies the GOPers are telling about what has already happened, and you're saying Obama is lying about the future. To accept this, we must accept your predictions about the future as infallibly accurate, which no one in his right mind does. And, of course, Obama is doing this deliberately because he is evil. As far as I'm concerned, its just more racist claptrap.
Of course it's that as far as you're concerned. What else is new? You're as pathetic as the NAACP and the Holder Justice Department (not to mention that you live in a fantasy world where conservatives are all evil liars and liberals are virtuous even when they have to do something bad to achieve something good). But by all means; keep screaming "racism." Never mind the damage you to to race relations in this country and never mind the fact that you turn more and more people against your side when you do it. If all I cared about was the political results, I'd be happy with that latter result of your cries of racism. But the former result is too serious to make political gain worth it.

If you think conservatives are going to walk on egg shells with regard to our opposition to the President's agenda rather than treating him the same way other recent presidents have been treated by the other party, you can forget it.

As far as calling out a lie based on a future prediction, Obama and other Democrats figured they could get away with it without paying a political price because they knew the lies wouldn't be found out until down the road. Well there is enough evidence in to make it clear that the biggest claims he made about the health care package (keeping our existing plans and not having an adverse impact on the deficit) were misleading at best, and flat out lies at worst. I don't think he's evil; I just think he's another politician who will say what he thinks he needs to in order to get his agenda through. Virtually every politician goes that. And no, I don't think all politicians are evil. Although I have little doubt you think the GOPers you cite on this thread are.
Last edited by Barry on Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

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rwetmore
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:14 pm

piston wrote:According to this report of the National Research Council, these would be some of the effects for every additional one-degree Celsius:
According to the report, for every degree Celsius of warming, impacts include:

* A 5 to 15 percent lower yield for some crops, including corn in Africa and the U.S., and wheat in India
* A 3 to 10 percent increase in heavy rainfall globally
* A 5 to 10 percent drop in rainfall in southwestern North America, southern Africa and the Mediterranean, among other precipitation changes
* A 5 to 10 percent change (increases in some regions, decreases in others) in stream flow in many river basins globally
* A 15 to 25 percent decrease in the extent of Arctic Ocean sea ice
I was finally able to track down the brief of this report on the NRC site and actually read it.

If anyone wants to read the brief, here it is:

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-as ... -Final.pdf

I'm going to try and download the full report and analyze it (if it doesn't cost anything).
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

HoustonDavid
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by HoustonDavid » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Randall, before you go about analyzing - and perhaps challenging - the report from the
National Research Council, whose members' credentials are well established, please
document for us your academic credentials in the sciences or engineering disciplines
needed to comment on their findings with any authority.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:34 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Randall, before you go about analyzing - and perhaps challenging - the report from the National Research Council, whose members' credentials are well established, please document for us your academic credentials in the sciences or engineering disciplines needed to comment on their findings with any authority.
I don't claim to have any credentials. I'm a lay person that perhaps has a little above average aptitude in math and science. Most importantly, I understand the fundamentals of science (something I don't think most people do). I combine this with basic critical thinking skills to assess credibility on the subject. I'm simply following the processes one must go through to attain knowledge on a particular subject, especially one as controversial and polarized as this one. The process is slow because there is a huge amount of information available, but given enough time, with enough reading and research, I slowly start owning a certain amount of knowledge for myself. Eventually, a point is reached where I at least believe I can accurately assess who is really knowledgeable and who is blowing smoke. It takes time though.

Also, I hope credentials are not your yardstick for assessing credibility on the subject because there are a large number of skeptics that have absolutely top notch credentials. In fact, one of the things I noticed (among other things), while studying this was that the skeptics seemed to be the generally more accomplished and/or veteran scientists. In the end though, it boils down to the actual science or lack there of. Afterall, science is science - not a "consensus" or majority vote (also something apparently most people don't know).
Last edited by rwetmore on Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:53 pm

Let me ask you a question, David. How do you know you wouldn't find the skeptics' position more credible if you've never examined it?
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:22 pm

rwetmore wrote:I was finally able to track down the brief of this report on the NRC site and actually read it.

If anyone wants to read the brief, here it is:

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-as ... -Final.pdf

I'm going to try and download the full report and analyze it (if it doesn't cost anything).
OK, I've spent some time reading this paper. It's like 200 pages long. It's not really a scientific paper, though I'm not sure it's even intended to be. It's more like a long list of summaries and conclusions, the actually evidence of which isn't provided - they just defer to numerous computer models and the IPCC. In other words, they do not provide any information on the actual science and methodologies used to get the results they are claiming. This is typical of just about everything I've read coming from the AGW proponents - the actual evidence is MIA.

Now, contrast this paper with this one coming from an AGW skeptic:

http://www.palisad.com/co2/eb/eb.html

Notice how this author thoroughly explains all his data and various methodologies used throughout in great detail. He even provides many links throughout the paper that further expand in more detail the already established scientific principles he's employing and why. In other words, everything is out in the open - his data collection, data organization as well the fundamental scientific reasoning behind all of the methodologies used in his analysis. This is true scientific paper.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

HoustonDavid
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Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: GOPer lies

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:40 pm

Randall, it might seem strange to you, but I have been following your (and others,
including Corlyss) arguments for some time. I just happen to believe that internal
arguments between scientists and a few obvious bad conclusions that have been
laundered in public (as they should be) don't constitute proof that AGW science is
baloney and is "discredited" as a result. As a technical writer, I worked closely with
scientists and engineers doing my best to turn their often impossibly complex words
into understandable English.

I found most of them very intelligent, expert in their fields, but inarticulate in
explaining themselves to others who were not also experts. The finished product they
and I strived for was something accurate but also understandable. Often as not, their
written work was actually "ghost" written, but approved by them for accuracy, of course.
More commonly, I would take their "finished" product and ensure it was "ready" for
consumption regarding spelling, grammar, proper referencing, and, most importantly,
understandability. The credibility of their work was, as it should be, based on their
work and the repeatability of their findings by their peers. That is the basis of all good
science as I'm sure we would both agree.

I have a degree in communications, not science or engineering, which is probably a plus
when it comes to ensuring scientists and engineers can be understood by the average
reader. As a result of years of very enjoyable working with these "experts", I have
come away with a better-than-average lay-persons understanding of their work. I still
enjoy reading technical journals that are aimed at a broad not specialized audience. So
I guess I can safely say that I am not your average reader completely uneducated or
unqualified to examine and disagree with AGW skeptics.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

piston
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by piston » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:55 pm

In any case, Randall's "objectivity" on this issue --an issue involving tens of thousand of scientists-- amounts to the following results:

Global warming studies, models, projections, analyses, syntheses: all wrong, 0 percent accuracy, reliability and credibility.

Anti-global warming studies, editorials, commentaries: all right, 100 percent accuracy, reliability and credibility.

For me, that in itself is enough to doubt anything stated and presented by this "objective" contributor.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:04 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Randall, it might seem strange to you, but I have been following your (and others, including Corlyss) arguments for some time. I just happen to believe that internal
arguments between scientists and a few obvious bad conclusions that have been
laundered in public (as they should be) don't constitute proof that AGW science is
baloney and is "discredited" as a result.
And you would be correct in making that assumption. The problem is it's not the so-called "few bad conclusions" but the aggregate weight of evidence contradicting the basic fundamentals of the entire AGW theory.
HoustonDavid wrote:I found most of them very intelligent, expert in their fields, but inarticulate in explaining themselves to others who were not also experts. The finished product they and I strived for was something accurate but also understandable. Often as not, their written work was actually "ghost" written, but approved by them for accuracy, of course. More commonly, I would take their "finished" product and ensure it was "ready" for
consumption regarding spelling, grammar, proper referencing, and, most importantly,
understandability. The credibility of their work was, as it should be, based on their
work and the repeatability of their findings by their peers. That is the basis of all good
science as I'm sure we would both agree.
Yes it certainly is. Unfortunately, AGW doesn't come anywhere close to meeting this standard. There is a plethora of very specific reasons for this.
HoustonDavid wrote:I have a degree in communications, not science or engineering, which is probably a plus when it comes to ensuring scientists and engineers can be understood by the average reader. As a result of years of very enjoyable working with these "experts", I have come away with a better-than-average lay-persons understanding of their work. I still
enjoy reading technical journals that are aimed at a broad not specialized audience. So
I guess I can safely say that I am not your average reader completely uneducated or
unqualified to examine and disagree with AGW skeptics.
OK, then why specifically do you disagree with the skeptics?
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:23 pm

piston wrote:In any case, Randall's "objectivity" on this issue --an issue involving tens of thousand of scientists-- amounts to the following results:

Global warming studies, models, projections, analyses, syntheses: all wrong, 0 percent accuracy, reliability and credibility.

Anti-global warming studies, editorials, commentaries: all right, 100 percent accuracy, reliability and credibility.

For me, that in itself is enough to doubt anything stated and presented by this "objective" contributor.
This is ridiculous. I've backed up all the things I've said in large detail mostly with my own writings - only occasionally referencing specific studies, editorials and commentaries. I've done a lot of research and own a lot of knowledge for myself. I've not made any such claims like what you're accusing me of above. Also, this isn't an issue that involves absolutes like "100 percent accuracy" or "100 percent certainty" and so forth. My comment about the stuff coming out the IPCC being 100 percent brazen fraud was in the context of their general findings and implications, and not necessarily each and every piece of evidence and methodology in conjunction - or that all claims of the possibility of some warming are bogus. There is big difference.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

HoustonDavid
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Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: GOPer lies

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:00 pm

Randall, let me use the two publications you have cited as examples of the "literature"
on the subject of AGW. You accused the first article from the NSC of lacking specificity
and citations for the research cited. As a technical writer, I will point out that this would
be considered a "summary" article derived from much more specific scientific papers and
meant for "general" consumption and published as same.

The second article by a Mr. White (for whom I could find zero citations when I Googled
for his credentials) is indeed a scientific paper citing appropriate studies and providing
specific citations, and probably written for inclusion in a journal for peer review. I have
personally assisted with both types of documents and both have their place in the pantheon
of technical literature. One is not better than the other, just for a different purpose and a
different audience.

I find the bulk of studies related to AGW are documented studies of on-going phenomena, in
and of themselves not "proof" of anything, as are most scientific studies. The great bulk of
their findings, often cited in "summary" studies (see above), support the ongoing phenomena
of global warming. Only a minority come to a different conclusion. Scientists almost never try
to "prove" anything - theories by definition are not "provable" - but when the bulk of the evidence
"leans" in an obvious direction, it usually helps establish a "trend".

Many scientists are challenged by "trends" to disprove popularly held beliefs - to right what they
think is wrong, so to speak - and sometimes they are proved correct. Science isn't "right' or "wrong",
it just is until somebody can find evidence to change the direction of evidentiary thinking.
I am firmly convinced that is where AGW is at this point, but I personally lean toward the body of
evidence that points to the reality of global warming. You obviously lean in the other, minority,
direction. :wink:
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:37 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Randall, let me use the two publications you have cited as examples of the "literature"on the subject of AGW. You accused the first article from the NSC of lacking specificity and citations for the research cited. As a technical writer, I will point out that this would be considered a "summary" article derived from much more specific scientific papers and
meant for "general" consumption and published as same.
That's pretty much what I said.
HoustonDavid wrote:The second article by a Mr. White (for whom I could find zero citations when I Googled for his credentials) is indeed a scientific paper citing appropriate studies and providing specific citations, and probably written for inclusion in a journal for peer review. I have personally assisted with both types of documents and both have their place in the pantheon of technical literature. One is not better than the other, just for a different purpose and a different audience.
Again this is consistent with what I said.
HoustonDavid wrote:I find the bulk of studies related to AGW are documented studies of on-going phenomena, in and of themselves not "proof" of anything, as are most scientific studies. The great bulk of their findings, often cited in "summary" studies (see above), support the ongoing phenomena of global warming. Only a minority come to a different conclusion. Scientists almost never try to "prove" anything - theories by definition are not "provable" - but when the bulk of the evidence "leans" in an obvious direction, it usually helps establish a "trend".
You're making assumptions here you haven't verified or checked out. How is that you know only a "minority" come to a different conclusion? What are the so-called "minority" findings? How do you know the bulk of the evidence leans in the direction you think it does if you don't know what the actual evidence is?
HoustonDavid wrote:Many scientists are challenged by "trends" to disprove popularly held beliefs - to right what they think is wrong, so to speak - and sometimes they are proved correct. Science isn't "right' or "wrong", it just is until somebody can find evidence to change the direction of evidentiary thinking.
Actually, this isn't how the process of science works.
HoustonDavid wrote:I am firmly convinced that is where AGW is at this point, but I personally lean toward the body of evidence that points to the reality of global warming.
Again, what is the body of evidence? How is it more credible or "scientifically sound" than the contrary evidence? You do understand that any theory or hypothesis in science is discredited by just one piece of contrary evidence - no matter how much confirming evidence may exist, right?
HoustonDavid wrote:You obviously lean in the other, minority, direction. :wink:
Yes, I lean heavily in the skeptics direction, but it is not a "minority" view in the field.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

RebLem
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Contact:

Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:16 am

Here's what I find interesting.

1) FACT: The post with which I revived this thread was an article from FactCheck.org pointing out that the widespread stories all over the RW talk airwaves, and the mouths of GOPer politicians about an exception to the Jones Act being necessary to get skimmers from other countries to come here were simply not true.

2) FACT: Not one RWer on this forum challenged the accuracy of that statement, that there has been a widespread campaign of lies from RWer talk shows and GOPer pols about this matter.

3) FACT: The RWers on this forum, by and large, are political supporters of the people telling these lies.

4) FACT: Not one single RWer on this forum has apologized for the fact that pols he supports have lied about this matter.

Do I think all RWers are liars? No. David Brooks isn't a liar. David Gergen isn't a liar. George F Will isn't a liar. But every RWer who has posted in this thread either is a liar, or suborns liars, as is shown by Facts 1-4 above. It looks like the RW response to what I wrote about RW lies is, "Well, you're liars, too, so that makes our lying all right."

And what is the evidence of lies by the Administration? No evidence of what has actually happened, but some writer's dystopic fantasies about what is going to happen within three years, which we are asked to accept as absolute, undeniable fact.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Barry
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:17 am

I don't defend or excuse it because I don't doubt that they lied. YOU are probably the only one on here who thinks the lies only come from one side of the aisle. I see it as the nature of the beast. They ALL lie to get their agenda through, including your beloved President.

Do you claim that he's never misled the public, be it about circumstances involving his father, the health care package or a myriad of other things?

I see him as just another politician; albeit a gifted one (he may be able to technically say he didn't lie about the health care package not raising the budget, but that ignores the fact that massive amounts of spending were diverted into other legislation, so while it may not technically meet the definition of a "lie," it is certainly intentionally misleading the public about an important issue). Where were YOU when I started a threat a while back on his showing up at that luncheon with the GOP senators to use them as props to make him look like he's trying to be bi-partisan after he squashed the efforts of some of those senators to reach a bi-partisan financial reform package? Do you claim Senator Collins was lying when she backed up Senator Corker right to Obama's face?

I only want consistency. I refuse to sit here and allow you or any of the other left wingers on here paint the Dems as saints and the GOP as villains when it's so easy to demonstrate that they both essentially play by the same political rule book. You simply excuse or ignore it from your side of the aisle because you agree with their agenda. And that's fine to an extent. We all do some of that. But then don't turn around and demand that those of us on the other side of the divide help you in that endeavor.

How many people do you think take you seriously after you scream racism at someone pointing out that the President misled the public on important issues that have nothing to do with race? And you've done things like that many times on here over the years, right up to labeling 95 percent of us as racists on one occasion. People recognize you for the hate-monger that you are; and you can't stop giving them ammunition for that.

I could sit here and post Democratic (including Obama) lies from factcheck.org too (he told some whoppers about McCain during the campaign). But what's the point? As I said, most people understand that lying is part of the game for politicians.
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http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Barry
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:35 pm

Obama flip-flops on individual mandate ... again:

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/07/ ... ate-again/
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:47 pm

Issa Sought ‘Yes’ on Loan Request

by Eugene Kiely | FactCheck.org | Posted on October 10, 2011

Rep. Darrell Issa, who has accused the administration of “political interference” to benefit a solar energy company [Solyndra], has falsely claimed that a letter he wrote to the Energy Department on behalf of a California car maker merely requested a decision — “yes or no” — on the company’s loan application. In fact, the California Republican wrote to “express support” for the company’s loan to develop an electric car. He wrote that approval of the loan would “greatly assist a leading developer of electric vehicles in my district” and “promote domestic job creation throughout California as well as in other states.”

Issa, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, is leading the congressional investigation of the Department of Energy’s decision to provide a $535 million loan guarantee to Solyndra, a now-defunct California solar company. We wrote about Solyndra last week. Issa appeared Oct. 9 on “Fox News Sunday,” telling host Chris Wallace that “Solyndra is a story of political interference.” Wallace asked about letters Issa wrote to the Energy Department on behalf of companies seeking government loans — specifically one on behalf of Aptera Motors Inc., which is within Issa’s district.

Wallace: You are saying — you were saying in the case of Aptera, which is one of the companies, you’re saying to the federal Energy Department, “Give them a federal loan guarantee.”

Issa: Not give them a loan guarantee. Our letter actually recognized, and by the way, their loan has never processed. It expired without them getting it. What we were –

Wallace: I’m not saying you were successful. I’m just saying you tried.

Issa: But the request was, they have a loan application and would you please give them a yes or no — and that’s a big difference. A lot of loans went in and these people spent money processing and they never heard.


In the case of Aptera, Issa did not merely ask the Energy Department to “please give them a yes or no.” On Sept. 21, Bloomberg News wrote that Issa urged approval of the loan, and the Washington Post published a copy of the letter.

Issa, Jan. 14, 2010: I write to express my support of Aptera Motors’ application for a loan under the Department of Energy’s 136 Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program (ATVMIP). Funding will allow Aptera to establish U.S. manufacturing facilities for the commercial production of its plug-in and hybrid electric cars. … Awarding this opportunity to Aptera Motors will greatly assist a leading developer of electric vehicles in my district. …

Aptera’s project will also promote domestic job creation throughout California as well as in other states. …

I urge you to give Aptera Motors’ Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program funding application full consideration.


A day after those stories appeared, Issa chaired a committee hearing titled, “How Obama’s Green Energy Agenda is Killing Jobs.” At the hearing, Rep. John Tierney, a Massachusetts Democrat, quoted from Issa’s letter.

Tierney, Sept. 22, 2011: I noticed that our chairman, Mr. Issa, who talks about this being a job killer and backdoor corruption, himself wrote a letter to the secretary of the department. I’ll just quote from the first part. “I write to express my support of Aptera Motors’ application for a loan under the Department of Energy’s 136 Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program (ATVMIP).” Later on there he says, “Aptera’s project will also promote domestic job creation.”

Issa did not respond to Tierney’s comment. We sent an email to Issa’s spokesman, but Columbus Day is a federal holiday and we did not hear back. If we do, we will update this item.

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/10/issa-s ... n-request/
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
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rwetmore
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:59 pm

Of all the threads, you had to resurrect this one?
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:14 am

rwetmore wrote:Of all the threads, you had to resurrect this one?
Its a Neverending Story. Eventually, it will be longer than Chalkie's Kevin thread.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by lennygoran » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:34 am

>For the life of me, I just can't believe how many people that this guy still has snowed.<

Snow-- that makes me think of 8 days without power because of outdoor wiring instead of getting it underground--Obama wants to create jobs and improve the infrastructure and that's what we need the government to be doing. Regards, Len

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by lennygoran » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:36 am

>"Knight of the Dubious Conspiracies"<

Wait is it "Knight of the Dubious Conspiracies" or ""Knight of the DUPIOUS Conspiracies"! Regards, Len [fleeing]

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by lennygoran » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:39 am

>Of all the threads, you had to resurrect this one?<

I didn't check the dates--I thought Barry had rejoined us! Regards, Len :)

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by lennygoran » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:41 am

>Eventually, it will be longer than Chalkie's Kevin thread.<

So let me see if I have this right--Chalkie has rejoined us and Barry is still out? Regards, Len [fleeing]

rwetmore
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by rwetmore » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:17 pm

lennygoran wrote:Obama wants to create jobs and improve the infrastructure and that's what we need the government to be doing. Regards, Len
Are you sure that's what government needs to be doing? The last time I checked, the so-called infrastructure was more than adequate for the employed to get to work and the unemployed to get to job interviews. :wink:

Gov't spending doesn't create jobs, Len. You should know better. Besides, the gov't already spent or passed a nearly 900 billion dollar 'stimulus' bill. Instead of lowering unemployment as promised, it rose to nearly 10%.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:21 pm

rwetmore wrote:
lennygoran wrote:Obama wants to create jobs and improve the infrastructure and that's what we need the government to be doing. Regards, Len
Are you sure that's what government needs to be doing? The last time I checked, the so-called infrastructure was more than adequate for the employed to get to work and the unemployed to get to job interviews. :wink:

Gov't spending doesn't create jobs, Len. You should know better. Besides, the gov't already spent or passed a nearly 900 billion dollar 'stimulus' bill. Instead of lowering unemployment as promised, it rose to nearly 10%.
On the second point, we are asked to accept as an a priori truth something which is plainly untrue. One of the things Obama did was to increase food stamp allotments by 20%. This means that people on food stamps can shop at supermarkets, buy food, which helps employ farmers, teamsters, food processing workers, butchers, supermarket workers of all sorts. Go tell this story to any Congressman of any party who has a military base in his district and ask if said military base, full of government employees, helps create jobs in the district. I guarantee, the most rock-ribbed GOPer in the country will look at you like you're insane for asking such a stupid question.

As for the first point, read:


Northeast power outages hit many businesses hard

Published November 07, 2011 | Associated Press

HARTFORD, Conn. –
Businesses big and small have taken a beating from the power outages caused by the record-setting October snowstorm and the losses are only beginning to be tallied, owners and experts said Monday as tens of thousands of Connecticut homes and companies entered a second week without electricity.

"I think there's going to be a huge trickle-down effect and we may not know the results for several months," said Andy Markowski, Connecticut director for the National Federation of Independent Business. "I don't know of any small business that can afford to lose a week or more of sales. ... We're just literally and figuratively beginning to pick up the pieces."

The Oct. 29-30 storm dumped heavy snow across the Northeast and downed scores of trees and utility wires. Three million homes and businesses lost power at the height of the storm.

Connecticut was hit the hardest, racking up more than 830,000 outages, and more than 37,000 utility customers remained in the dark Monday. New Jersey utilities said everyone was back on line, while Massachusetts power companies were working to restore electricity to about 300 customers.

The storm also is affecting municipal elections Tuesday in Connecticut, where nine cities and towns were moving and consolidating their polling places. Secretary of the State Denise Merrill said some polling locations do not yet have electricity while others have been damaged or are being used as shelters and warming centers.

Gov. Dannel P. Malloy has called the duration of the outages unacceptable and has launched an independent probe of the utilities' response. He said the state is keeping its legal options open in case there are grounds for recourse in the courts once the circumstances are examined.

When asked how he planned to hold the utilities accountable for the slow recovery response, as he has promised, the governor said it will be through the state's regulatory process.

"We can bring dockets and ask for things to happen with respect to how they conduct their business and what way they conduct their business and what they recover losses for, for instance," said the governor, who said he presumed that the investigation of Connecticut Light and Power, the state's largest utility, would uncover "some degree of malfeasance" and could lead to legal action by the state.

Some homes and businesses weren't expected to get their power back until Wednesday night.

No power and no water meant no work for Angela Campetti, who runs a small house-cleaning business in Simsbury, Conn. All 10,100 electricity customers in the town were without power for several days and nearly half still weren't restored by Monday.

Campetti said she lost a significant amount of money because of the outages and hasn't been able to pay herself or her two employees at First Class Housekeeping.

"I'm not very happy," she said. "All the houses I was supposed to clean the power was out and my employees weren't able to go out and clean. You can't go in there with your vacuum."

The outages have affected a wide variety of companies, Markowski said, including small machine shops, home-based businesses and restaurants that were hit with the double whammy of losing sales and having to throw out food.

Peter Gioia, an economist at the Connecticut Business and Industry Association, said large companies also took big hits to their revenues. Though some businesses such as tree trimming and gas stations did well during the extended outages, many others were forced to shut, he said.

"The net effect is a minus," Gioia said.

He added that the CBIA's incoming email and website visits were down 50 percent during the week when power was out, reflecting that many businesses were not open.

Insurance agents, meanwhile, are reporting higher volumes of claims for business interruption insurance than what was submitted during hurricanes Irene and Lee, said Dan Corbin, director of research at Glenmont, N.Y.-based Professional Insurance Agents.

Business interruption insurance could include payments for lost profit and extra expenses such as moving to a different site that has electricity. To make a claim, the insured must prove property damage.

Insurance typically pays for continuing expenses such as rent or mortgage payments, payroll to avoid laying off workers and replacements of perishable goods, Corbin said.

One place that was not affected was the mall in Manchester, Conn.

General Manager Nancy Murray said that because The Shoppes at Buckland Hills are served by underground wires, they did not lose power and became a magnet for people in search of food, heat and power to charge cellphones and other equipment.

"It especially affected people the first Sunday," she said. "We were packed that day."

Associated Press Writer Susan Haigh contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/07/th ... 900442862/
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:34 pm

Here's another anonymous lie. Must be a GOPer lie, since its anti-Obama, particularly anti-First Lady, whom everyone but the most extreme GOPers seems to like. Its rated Pants on Fire by Politifact, from which site I copied this:

Authors of chain emails love to question President Barack Obama's patriotism.

They've said he refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance (False), that he "turns his back to the flag and slouches" (False), and that he complained that U.S. troops were whining about going to war. (Pants on Fire).

(We are not including the claim that Obama fits the biblical description of the Antichrist, since it's theoretically possible that you could be the Antichrist and still be patriotic.)

We've also noticed a sub-genre of emails that attack First Lady Michelle Obama for living a life of luxury, such as the claim that she ordered $400 worth of caviar and lobster at the Waldorf Astoria in New York (Pants on Fire).

Now comes a new twist on a claim that sprouted a year ago in the conservative blogosphere: the suggestion that during 9/11 memorial ceremonies, the first lady could be seen saying to her husband, "All this for a damn flag."

The controversy has been fueled by video that shows the first lady saying something to her husband. Because the comments are not audible, critics of the Obamas have speculated about her words. On YouTube, a video that has been seen 1.4 million times slows the exchange and declares the first lady said, "All this for a damn flag" and that the president replied "Hm … mn …. nnnn" and gave a "nod of disapproval."

The Blaze, Glenn Beck's website, invited readers to do their own lip reading and speculate what they thought Michelle Obama was saying. The results of the 38,706 votes:

"All this for a damn flag." 49 percent

"Look at how they fold that damn flag." 5

"Look at how they fold that flag." 22

Something else, but I'm not sure. 7

Come on, there's no way to tell. 17




The new email, which emerged about one month ago, indicates Michelle Obama's words have been confirmed by "a lip-reading instructor at the River School, a Washington school for the deaf."

Here's the full email (it has two subject lines because senders added a second line when forwarding it)::

Subject: Obama's wife - Caught in the Act

You be the judge.

How much more disrespect can there be?

Subject: Obama's wife as seen by deaf people

READING HER LIPS !!

Obama and his wife were attending The 9/11 Memorial Ceremony and watched as the Color Guard folded the flag into a triangular shape, according to custom.

A video camera caught the two from the sidelines. Obama's wife leaned over and said to him, "All this for a damn flag?" Obama turned to her, smiled smugly and nodded his head in agreement.

How do we know what was said? The video was presented for translation to a lip reading instructor at The River School, a Washington D.C. school for the deaf.

The video is shown at normal speed, 3/4 speed, and 1/2 speed with no banners obstructing her lips.

The current Commander and Chief and the First Lady proud of being American? You be the judge...


Like many chain emails, this one has evolved since earlier versions. The detail about the lip-reading instructor at the River School was added recently, presumably to give the email more credibility.

But that credibility crumbled when we spoke with Nancy Mellon, director of the River School. She described it as a Washington school that serves a wide range of children from 18 months to third grade. It is known for its strong program for hearing-impaired children, but they account for just 15 percent of the students.

More importantly, the River School doesn't teach lip-reading, Mellon said, and no one from the faculty has provided any interpretation of the video.

"It's definitely not us," she said. "We would never try to do anything like this."

The school has gotten so many inquiries about the chain email that last week it posted this message on its website:

Please be advised that The River School was not involved in any translation services for a recent video clip currently circulating on the Internet.

So what did she really say? The consensus on All Deaf, a website for people who are hearing impaired, was that she said, "It's amazing how they fold that flag." (However, one person speculated that she told her husband, "This is the third time this week you left your underwear on the floor... I ain't your mother.")

Our ruling

Like many chain emails we've checked, this one is so flimsy that it needs to fabricate its credibility. Critics of Obama are free to speculate about the first lady's words, but the "damn flag" translation was not done by anyone at the River School.

So we give this one a nod of disapproval -- and a Pants on Fire!

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... irst-lady/
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by Alberich » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:37 pm

Yawwwnnnnn....

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:44 pm

Alberich wrote:Yawwwnnnnn....
It seems inconsequential, but when one considers that achieving the formality of more people voting for your candidate than the other one is a matter of pulling together people from all over, it makes perfect sense that the Republicans are the ones who have the crackpot chain mail crowd all locked up. :wink:

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:54 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Alberich wrote:Yawwwnnnnn....
It seems inconsequential, but when one considers that achieving the formality of more people voting for your candidate than the other one is a matter of pulling together people from all over, it makes perfect sense that the Republicans are the ones who have the crackpot chain mail crowd all locked up. :wink:
I keep coming back to a quote from Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. In the BNW, as most of you know, people are routinely bred in test tubes or petri dishes, gestate in artificial wombs, and taught the things the State wants them to know through repetitive sleep teaching--the repetition of certain bromides which discourage rebellion and foster social cohesion. As Mustapha Mond, one of the world controllers, says to a group of dissenters who come to his office, "2,735 repetitions equals a Truth." I am not sure about the exact number, but you get the idea. Many have come to believe all sorts of things that aren't true simply because they have been repeated thousands of times. Just two examples to illustrate the point:

1) Eugene McCarthy won the 1968 Democratic primary in New Hampshire. NO, he didn't. Lyndon Johnson did, but by a smaller majority than had been expected, showing that McCarthy and other anti-war politicians posed a real threat to his re-election.

2) John Kerry's statement, "I was for it before I was against it," is commonly taken as an example of a vacillating and indecisive mind that would be dangerous in the White House. Kerry made the comment during a March 16, 2004 appearance at Marshall University in Huntington, West Virginia, in response to a question about his vote against an $87 billion supplemental appropriation for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. What he meant was that he voted for an early version of the bill, but that others lit it up with so many "Christmas Tree" ornaments and unnecessary pork, that he decided ultimately to vote against the bill in its final form. Perfectly reasonable, actually, the kind of thing voters are always urging on poliicians.

No matter how ridiculous a claim is, I believe, it must be answered immediately and forcefully. If they are not, enough people may come to believe it to make a difference.

I hear someone asking, "Yeah, is it only right wingers that believe untrue things?" No.

It is an article of faith among some liberals, for example, the Neil Bush, as a member of the board of the Silverado Savings & Loan in Colorado, was somehow culpable in the failure of the institution. There is NO evidence that he profited from any wrongdoing that might have been going on there. He may have been lax about exercising the kind of due diligence that board members of corporations ought to exercise, but we all know as a matter of fact that most boards are easily manipulated by the three top officers in the corporation, of which Neil Bush was not one.

It is an article of faith among most liberals that Anita Hill told the truth about Clarence Thomas, despite the fact that Sen. Orrin Hatch presented a very credible theory as to how her story came to be manufactured by pointing out the similarities between her allegations and the details of a case which had occurred in the judicial district in which the University of Oklahoma at Norman where she taught at the time, was located. Think about the fact that she is his only accuser. No one before her made any such allegations. Neither did anyone after her in the twenty years or so Thomas has served on the court. How many people sexually harrass one person and only one? Not many, I subimit.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by lennygoran » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:09 am

jbuck919 wrote: the Republicans are the ones who have the crackpot chain mail crowd all locked up. :wink:
Maybe Bush 1 deserves some credit here--wasn't he the won who demanded people read his lips! Regards, Len [fleeing]

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:48 am

RebLem wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Alberich wrote:Yawwwnnnnn....
It is an article of faith among most liberals that Anita Hill told the truth about Clarence Thomas, despite the fact that Sen. Orrin Hatch presented a very credible theory as to how her story came to be manufactured by pointing out the similarities between her allegations and the details of a case which had occurred in the judicial district in which the University of Oklahoma at Norman where she taught at the time, was located. Think about the fact that she is his only accuser. No one before her made any such allegations. Neither did anyone after her in the twenty years or so Thomas has served on the court. How many people sexually harrass one person and only one? Not many, I subimit.
Another famous example is that Ford made a deal to pardon Nixon. There's no evidence of that, and Ford's own explanation (that he had to get past Watergate because it was taking up all his time), while lame, is consistent with his character and has the ring of truth.

In this election, though, I'm equally if not more concerned about lies that are believed upon hearing them only a single time. As I've posted before, another part of the Republican coalition is people who will believe anything they hear.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:38 pm

Here is a story which the GOPers are trying to inflate into an incidence of corruption in which Obama is either involved or in which one of Obama's friends is involved, somehow meaning that Obama enjoys the company and support of corrupt people. As you can see, there is no hint of Obama involvement in this incidence of corruption, or that of the friend cited.

Another thing. This is an old thread which I have revived. In the fifth post in this thread, a poster, writing in July, 2010, said most Americans will lose their health insurance within three years because of Obamacare. We are now just past his three year mark. I invite you to read the whole post carefully, and see how much of it has not come true, and which of us--me or him--came up with the most accurate prediction. RebLem


Obama pal says he's cooperating with feds in grant scam case

By Ray Long and Hal Dardick, Chicago Tribune reporters | 8:20 a.m. CDT, August 9, 2013

SPRINGFIELD - Dr. Eric Whitaker, a close friend of President Barack Obama, acknowledged that he is cooperating with federal authorities working on a $433,000 kickback scheme at the state public health agency he once led, but he said he was not involved in the alleged crimes.

Whitaker declined an interview request Thursday but released a statement following the indictment of Quinshaunta R. Golden, who was his chief of staff at the Illinois Department of Public Health. Golden is accused of conspiring with state grant recipients to divert federal money into her own pockets and then trying to cover it up. "I had no firsthand knowledge of the activities outlined in this indictment and was not involved in any way," Whitaker said in the statement. "As requested by the U.S. attorney, I have been fully cooperating with the investigation into these matters."

There was no indication in the indictment that Whitaker knew of the wrongdoing. Asked Thursday if Whitaker is a target in the probe, James Lewis, U.S. attorney for the Central District of Illinois, offered the standard response of refusing to venture beyond details of the Golden indictment. "At this point, the evidence has taken us to Quin Golden, and the evidence has not taken us farther," Lewis said. Pressed on whether Whitaker is in prosecutors' sights, Lewis said: "There's nothing in the material you have today that leads toward an answer to that question." But Lewis answered "no" when asked if Obama is linked to the case, given that he is a Whitaker friend who recommended him for the public health job.

Whitaker, who golfed with Obama during the president's 52nd birthday celebration last weekend, left the state public health department in September 2007 to work with Michelle Obama at University of Chicago Medicine before leaving this year. Golden left her state job in early 2008 and joined Whitaker at U. of C.

Golden, the niece of U.S. Rep. Danny Davis, is the 13th person to be charged in a federal task force's ongoing investigation of state grant and contract fraud. Davis was aware of the investigation only "via newspaper accounts, family members and general knowledge" and never discussed it with Golden, said Davis spokesman Ira Cohen. Davis has not been questioned by federal authorities, Cohen said.

The task force's efforts already have claimed the political career of former state Rep. Connie Howard, who pled guilty last month to diverting as much as $28,000 from a scholarship fund she created to benefit needy students.

Also indicted in the grant probe is the daughter of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., the president's controversial former pastor. Jeri Wright, of Hazel Crest, has pled not guilty to charges of money laundering in a case involving former Country Club Hills police Chief Regina Evans. Wright is alleged to have helped Evans convert paychecks from Evans' nonprofit to Evans' personal use rather than using it for the intended purpose of training minority and female workers in the building trades.

According to the Golden indictment, starting in 2006, Golden directed grants to the V.I.P. Security & Detective Service in Evergreen Park to do background checks to evaluate potential nursing home residents for felonies. A 2009 Tribune investigation determined that state evaluations in which V.I.P. Security took part sometimes missed ex-convicts' violent crimes and downplayed the risk they posed to other nursing home residents.

Under Golden, the state agency also issued grants to nonprofits run by Leon Dingle Jr. Golden is alleged to have had Dingle hire a paid consultant, identified in the indictment only as Individual A. The consultant collected more than $1 million in grant and contract money given to Dingle's groups and the security firm and was supposed to kick back half the money to Golden, the indictment states.

Individual A is described as an associate of Golden and a paid consultant of V.I.P. Security who allegedly paid $433,000 to Golden as part of the scheme, according to the indictment.

Roxanne Bryant Jackson, an attorney, headed up human resources at the state health department when Whitaker and Golden were there. Jackson later was director of V.I.P. Security, which was owned by her brother Bennie Bryant III.

Messages left for Jackson were not returned, nor were messages for Golden's attorney.

rlong@tribune.com hdardick@tribune.com

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/poli ... 7309.story
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:16 pm

Since I almost always agree with Paul Krugman, these days I only post him when someone else's post offers the opportunity. :)


The New York Times

August 4, 2013
Republicans Against Reality
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Last week House Republicans voted for the 40th time to repeal Obamacare. Like the previous 39 votes, this action will have no effect whatsoever. But it was a stand-in for what Republicans really want to do: repeal reality, and the laws of arithmetic in particular. The sad truth is that the modern G.O.P. is lost in fantasy, unable to participate in actual governing.

Just to be clear, I’m not talking about policy substance. I may believe that Republicans have their priorities all wrong, but that’s not the issue here. Instead, I’m talking about their apparent inability to accept very basic reality constraints, like the fact that you can’t cut overall spending without cutting spending on particular programs, or the fact that voting to repeal legislation doesn’t change the law when the other party controls the Senate and the White House.

Am I exaggerating? Consider what went down in Congress last week.

First, House leaders had to cancel planned voting on a transportation bill, because not enough representatives were willing to vote for the bill’s steep spending cuts. Now, just a few months ago House Republicans approved an extreme austerity budget, mandating severe overall cuts in federal spending — and each specific bill will have to involve large cuts in order to meet that target. But it turned out that a significant number of representatives, while willing to vote for huge spending cuts as long as there weren’t any specifics, balked at the details. Don’t cut you, don’t cut me, cut that fellow behind the tree.

Then House leaders announced plans to hold a vote on doubling the amount of cuts from the food stamp program — a demand that is likely to sink the already struggling effort to agree with the Senate on a farm bill.

Then they held the pointless vote on Obamacare, apparently just to make themselves feel better. (It’s curious how comforting they find the idea of denying health care to millions of Americans.) And then they went home for recess, even though the end of the fiscal year is looming and hardly any of the legislation needed to run the federal government has passed.

In other words, Republicans, confronted with the responsibilities of governing, essentially threw a tantrum, then ran off to sulk.

How did the G.O.P. get to this point? On budget issues, the proximate source of the party’s troubles lies in the decision to turn the formulation of fiscal policy over to a con man. Representative Paul Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, has always been a magic-asterisk kind of guy — someone who makes big claims about having a plan to slash deficits but refuses to spell out any of the all-important details. Back in 2011 the Congressional Budget Office, in evaluating one of Mr. Ryan’s plans, came close to open sarcasm; it described the extreme spending cuts Mr. Ryan was assuming, then remarked, tersely, “No proposals were specified that would generate that path.”

What’s happening now is that the G.O.P. is trying to convert Mr. Ryan’s big talk into actual legislation — and is finding, unsurprisingly, that it can’t be done. Yet Republicans aren’t willing to face up to that reality. Instead, they’re just running away.

When it comes to fiscal policy, then, Republicans have fallen victim to their own con game. And I would argue that something similar explains how the party lost its way, not just on fiscal policy, but on everything.

Think of it this way: For a long time the Republican establishment got its way by playing a con game with the party’s base. Voters would be mobilized as soldiers in an ideological crusade, fired up by warnings that liberals were going to turn the country over to gay married terrorists, not to mention taking your hard-earned dollars and giving them to Those People. Then, once the election was over, the establishment would get on with its real priorities — deregulation and lower taxes on the wealthy.

At this point, however, the establishment has lost control. Meanwhile, base voters actually believe the stories they were told — for example, that the government is spending vast sums on things that are a complete waste or at any rate don’t do anything for people like them. (Don’t let the government get its hands on Medicare!) And the party establishment can’t get the base to accept fiscal or political reality without, in effect, admitting to those base voters that they were lied to.

The result is what we see now in the House: a party that, as I said, seems unable to participate in even the most basic processes of governing.

What makes this frightening is that Republicans do, in fact, have a majority in the House, so America can’t be governed at all unless a sufficient number of those House Republicans are willing to face reality. And that quorum of reasonable Republicans may not exist.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

RebLem
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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:05 am

I really do not understand how it is possible for anyone to believe that the way to stimulate the economy is for the world's largest customer, the US government, to stop buying things.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:29 am

Somehow I managed to "like" something on Facebook that is getting me Robert Reich's column, so now I have a double dose of self-confirmation several times a week. :) He thinks that the Republicans have no interest in economic recovery (which he identifies correctly with full employment) and below are his reasons why. This is not the entire article; I have supplied the link. I'm not sure his details are not too speculative. I would appreciate the comments of others on whether Reich is overstating his case by working too hard to find a rational explanation for Republican behavior, when Republicans don't need a detailed rationale to screw the American people.

The real answer, I think [to the question of why Republicans won't do anything to address unemployment], is they and their patrons want unemployment to remain high and job-growth to sputter. Why? Three reasons:

First, high unemployment keeps wages down. Workers who are worried about losing their jobs settle for whatever they can get — which is why hourly earnings keep dropping. The median wage is now 4 percent lower than it was at the start of the recovery. Low wages help boost corporate profits, thereby keeping the regressives’ corporate sponsors happy.

Second, high unemployment fuels the bull market on Wall Street. That’s because the Fed is committed to buying long-term bonds as long as unemployment remains high. This keeps bond yields low and pushes investors into equities — which helps boosts executive pay and Wall Street commissions, thereby keeping regressives’ financial sponsors happy.

Third, high unemployment keeps most Americans economically fearful and financially insecure. This sets them up to believe regressive lies — that their biggest worry should be that “big government” will tax away the little they have and give it to “undeserving” minorities; that they should support low taxes on corporations and wealthy “job creators;” and that new immigrants threaten their jobs.

http://robertreich.org/post/57285734645

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by John F » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:46 pm

I've read elsewhere a similar argument that American business doesn't like government efforts to diminish unemployment. Not from Reich and not the same specific reasons, as far as I can remember. I've no opinion about this of my own.
John Francis

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Re: GOPer lies

Post by RebLem » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:31 pm

19 Times Democrats Tried to Negotiate With Republicans

The GOP's biggest talking point of the shutdown is only true if you ignore everything that happened before last week.

By Alex Seitz-Wald | The National Journal | October 7, 2013

To hear almost any Republican lawmaker speak in post-shutdown Washington is to hear that Democrats are refusing to negotiate to reopen the government and avert a debt default. It's a talking point that may be selling well, but it's only true if you ignore anything that happened before last Monday at about 11 p.m.

Republicans think they've hit talking-point gold with the message, as we learned from a candid "hot mic" moment last week when Sen. Rand Paul privately told fellow Kentuckian Mitch McConnell that he didn't think Democrats had "poll-tested" the "awful" message. " 'It's my way or the highway.' That's what he's saying. Complete surrender, and then we'll talk to you," House Speaker John Boehner told ABC News on Sunday.

In a sense, Republicans are right. Democrats view keeping the government open and out of default as Congress's most basic job, and they characterize anything that threatens that as "ransom," so they say they're not willing to come to the table until the government reopens. But, in context, the GOP's biggest talking point of the shutdown falls apart when you consider that Democrats only started refusing to negotiate after Republicans stopped, the hour before the government shut down a week ago.

For instance, through a Senate Democratic aide, here are all the times since this spring Senate Democrats tried to negotiate with Republicans by sending their budget to a bicameral conference committee. Every time, Republicans blocked the move:

1. 4/23 Senator Reid requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Toomey blocked.

2. 5/6 Senator Reid requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Cruz blocked.

3. 5/7 Senator Murray requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator McConnell blocked.

4. 5/8 Senator Warner asked unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator McConnell blocked.

5. 5/9 Senator Murray asked unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator McConnell blocked.

6. 5/14 Senator Warner asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator McConnell blocked.

7. 5/15 Senator Wyden asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator McConnell blocked.

8. 5/16 Senator Murray asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Lee blocked.

9. 5/21 Senator Murray asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Paul blocked.

10. 5/22 Senator Kaine asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Rubio blocked.

11. 5/23 Senator McCaskill asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Lee blocked.

12. 6/4 Senator Murray asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Rubio blocked.

13. 6/12 Senator Kaine asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Lee blocked.

14. 6/19 Senator Murray asked unanimous consent to go to conference, and Senator Toomey blocked.

15. 6/26 Senator Murray requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Cruz blocked.

16. 7/11 Senator Murray requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Marco Rubio blocked.

17. 7/17 Senator Murray requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Mike Lee blocked.

18. 8/1 Senator Durbin requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Marco Rubio blocked.

19. 10/2 Senator Murray requested unanimous consent to go to conference, Senator Toomey blocked.

"For six months I've tried to enter into formal budget negotiations with Paul Ryan, only to be repeatedly denied permission to negotiate by Ted Cruz and the tea party," said Senate Budget Committee Chairwoman Patty Murray, D-Wash. "Now, a week into a government shutdown that he could end at a moment's notice, Speaker Boehner is simply trying to distract from his constantly changing list of demands."

The parties flipped positions Monday, the first day of the new fiscal year, when Republicans tried to finally start conference-committee negotiations just minutes before midnight. Democrats balked—"We will not go to conference with a gun to our head," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on the floor—considering that they had been rebuffed almost 20 times before and that Republicans had shown no interest until it was already clear the government was closing. Last week, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor tweeted a picture of a faux conference committee [it was a pic of all white men, dressed in a uniform which included slacks, a white shirt, and a tie with no jacket. It looked like a Republican conference on women's health, one comedian said. RebLem], which included zero Democrats, saying, "We sit ready to negotiate with the Senate."

Perhaps we could have avoided a shutdown if they had been ready to negotiate before the government ran out of money.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress ... d=mostread
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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