Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

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Barry
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Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 pm

Gen. McChrystal retires in military ceremony
July 23, 2010
By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON – Gen. Stanley McChrystal ended his 34-year career as an Army officer Friday in an emotional retirement ceremony at his military headquarters here, marking the last chapter of his swift and stunning fall from grace.

Before a crowd of a few hundred friends, family and colleagues on the Fort McNair parade grounds under an oppressively hot July sun, McChrystal said his service didn't end as he hoped. But he regretted few decisions he had made on the battlefield, cherished his life as a soldier and was optimistic about his future, he said.

"I trusted and I still trust," McChrystal said. "I cared and I still care. I wouldn't have it any other way."

The former commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan was fired last month after Rolling Stone magazine published an article titled "The Runaway General" that quoted scathing remarks he and his aides made about their civilian bosses.

McChrystal complained President Barack Obama had handed him "an unsellable position" on the war. The general's closest advisers mocked other government officials, including Vice President Joseph Biden, as fools who were ignorant of the complexities of war.

"Biden? Did you say, 'Bite me?'" one aide is quoted saying.

Shortly after the article was published, McChrystal was sent packing.

In his 18-minute farewell tribute before the VIP-studded crowd, McChrystal made light of the episode. He warned his comrades in arms: "I have stories on all of you, photos of many, and I know a Rolling Stone reporter."

But McChrystal also sounded a more serious note, when he talked about the pain of leaving behind unfulfilled commitments in Afghanistan and watching colleagues ensnared in the scandal.

"There are misconceptions about the loyalty and service of some dedicated professionals that will likely take some time, but I believe will be corrected," he said.

Still, he said he was approaching the future with optimism.

"I need to celebrate," said McChrystal, who inspired intense loyalty among many of those who served under him.

McChrystal spent much of his speech paying tribute to his wife of 33 years, Annie, who watched tearfully from the front row. He described her endless support, as he repeatedly headed off to war, and as inspiring him during dark times following the 2001 terrorist attacks.

"She's here, like she's always been there when it matters, always gorgeous," he said.

Soldiers attending the ceremony were allowed to forgo their formal dress uniforms in lieu of combat fatigues — an apparent tribute to a war commander fresh from battle and whose career was marked by more secret operations to snatch terror suspects than by pomp and circumstance.

Wearing his own Army combat uniform for the last time, the four-star general received full military honors, including a 17-gun salute and flag formations by the Army's Old Guard.

He smiled and nodded at members in the crowd and appeared to joke with U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who appeared to fight back tears as he gave McChrystal a hero's tribute.

"Over the past decade, arguably no single American has inflicted more fear, more loss of freedom and more loss of life on our country's most vicious and violent enemies than Stan McChrystal," Gates said.

Afghanistan's top representative to the United States said his country would remember McChrystal for generations to come.

"We will never forget the sacrifices that you and those under your command have made to make Afghanistan safer for our children," Ambassador Said Tayeb Jawad said.

A close aide to the general, Col. Charles Flynn, says McChrystal plans to live in the northern Virginia area after moving out of his home in Washington's Fort McNair.

"Presently, the general is concentrating on his transition, the move, his family and remains undecided about future employment options," Flynn wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Senior military and defense officials, including Gates, have said they agreed with Obama's decision to fire McChrystal but were crestfallen by the loss of a gifted colleague.

During his rise to one of the nation's top military jobs, McChrystal made many allies — including Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Adm. Mike Mullen — who saw him as an honest broker with extraordinary self-discipline.

Mullen was among those who said he was crushed by the episode. He was unable to attend Friday's ceremony because he was traveling overseas.

"He is a friend," Mullen said of McChrystal shortly after McChrystal was fired. "He's an extraordinary officer. He made a severe mistake."

McChrystal was a seasoned special operations commander who made his reputation hunting down members of al-Qaida in Iraq, and helping turn around the course of that war. Last year, he was picked as top commander in Afghanistan to replace Gen. David McKiernan, who was removed from his post by an Obama administration anxious to chart a new course in the war.

The White House is allowing McChrystal to keep his four stars in retirement, even though Army rules would have required him to serve another two years at that rank.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_mcchrystal_retirement
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ch1525
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by ch1525 » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:36 pm

Poor guy. Everything he said was true, too. It must be really hard for the top brass to pretend like they have even an ounce of respect for Obama.

Barry
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:42 pm

ch1525 wrote:Poor guy. Everything he said was true, too. It must be really hard for the top brass to pretend like they have even an ounce of respect for Obama.
Be that as it may, I can't say it was wrong for him to be relieved of his command. It's vital under our system for the military leaders to not publicly undermine the authority of the civilian leadership.

Having said that, I still feel for the guy. He's apparently a great general and the country owes him a great deal. I'm glad he was permitted to retire with his four stars.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Agnes Selby
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:34 pm

A great General slayed by a hack writing for a rag.

From what I understand, the report was not obtained
in a regular interview but during a time of relaxation
over drinks. The article was not cleared by the General
which is necessary under wartime conditions. It is one
of the first rules I learned in Journalism.

It was a most unethical deed from a scheming journalist in
quest of sensationalism.
Last edited by Agnes Selby on Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Seán
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Seán » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:57 pm

Barry wrote:
ch1525 wrote:Poor guy. Everything he said was true, too. It must be really hard for the top brass to pretend like they have even an ounce of respect for Obama.
Be that as it may, I can't say it was wrong for him to be relieved of his command. It's vital under our system for the military leaders to not publicly undermine the authority of the civilian leadership.
I rarely comment on these matters but I must say that I agree with you on that Barry, well said. I salute your taking a non-partisian approach to this sorry affair.
Having said that, I still feel for the guy. He's apparently a great general and the country owes him a great deal. I'm glad he was permitted to retire with his four stars.
Seán

"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:35 pm

An indication of Obama's mistake in swapping McChrystal for Petreaus was the comment that SECDEF Gates was close to tears, whilst most of you consider it insubordination, I would point out that each time the Big Mac spoke out there was a very important point in his comments, the first time was that Obama could not be bothered to take the time to review and make a decision on the Troop increases, the second time was to point out that the State Department and the US Ambassador to Afghanistan were incapable of working together because of personal differences...in a time of War it is vital that both branches of the Government and the Military work closely together for the same goal...I would also point out that McChrystal has worked in Spec Op's all his life, 95% of his career is Classified, and, he genuinely did not think he had committed an act that would require him to Resign from the Army...we all owe him a great deal for the work he has done over the last 34 years...that said, Petreaus's replacement as head of CENTCOM is a highly qualified (but, also outspoken) Marine, General Jim Mattis...
The New York Times has a nice article on the general chosen to head Central Command — Jim Mattis. I’ve known Mattis since the summer of 2003, when I spent some time in Iraq while he was commander of the 1st Marine Division. I was struck by how quickly and seamlessly he made the transition from conventional operations to what the military calls “stability operations” in the Shiite heartland of central Iraq. His methods were similar to those being employed in northern Iraq by another divisional commander — David Petraeus, of the 101st Airborne Division.

I’ve often wondered since then: whatever happened to those guys? Just kidding.

Petraeus’s stratospheric and well deserved rise to become the most celebrated American general since Eisenhower has already become legend. Mattis has not gotten the same degree of attention, but he completed another tour of duty in Iraq, helped co-author the Army/Marine Field Manual on Counterinsurgency with Petraeus, and went on to head the U.S. Joint Forces Command.

His many admirers, of whom I am one, were puzzled by his failure to be appointed to one of the truly plum jobs, such as that of Marine Commandant or Central Command chief. This was generally attributed to his salty tongue; he got into hot water in 2005 for saying at a public forum: “You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap around women for five years because they didn’t wear a veil. You know guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway, so it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them.” This was seen as a cardinal violation of the rules of political correctness, which hold that soldiers are only supposed to talk about the anguish, trauma, and post-traumatic stress disorder they experience; they are never supposed to comment on the thrill of the kill.

Defense Secretary Bob Gates and President Obama deserve considerable credit for not letting this minor fracas stop them from appointing Mattis as Petraeus’s successor at Centcom. What they undoubtedly know, and what the rest of the world will discover, is that Mattis is not only a “warrior’s warrior” (as he is described in the Times) but also a “diplomat’s diplomat.” In his JFCOM role, he was for a while responsible for NATO force transformation, which required him to press NATO officials to do more to upgrade their armed forces. He was not always successful (who would be?), but he was by all accounts a compelling and persuasive diplomat. He has become known for sending everyone he meets a personal “thank you” note — not a standard-issue form but rather a letter that reflects on the substance of the conversation.

I got one myself after hosting Mattis for an off-the-record roundtable at the Council on Foreign Relations. Given the ground rules, I can’t discuss what he said, but I can mention the impression he made on some jaded Council members in New York. He wowed them by combining the erudition of a Harvard professor with a combat grunt’s gift for aphorism. He showed why he is revered not only as a combat leader but also as an intellectual whose personal library of military works runs to thousands of volumes. It is hard to imagine a better choice to head Central Command. I trust he will enjoy smooth sailing in the Senate confirmation process. Max Boot
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Barry
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:03 pm

Chalkperson wrote:I would point out that each time the Big Mac spoke out there was a very important point in his comments, the first time was that Obama could not be bothered to take the time to review and make a decision on the Troop increases, the second time was to point out that the State Department and the US Ambassador to Afghanistan were incapable of working together because of personal differences.
I agree with both of those criticisms of Obama's handling of the war. My one problem with them is that they were aired in public.
Chalkperson wrote:
His many admirers, of whom I am one, were puzzled by his failure to be appointed to one of the truly plum jobs, such as that of Marine Commandant or Central Command chief. This was generally attributed to his salty tongue; he got into hot water in 2005 for saying at a public forum: “You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap around women for five years because they didn’t wear a veil. You know guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway, so it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them.” This was seen as a cardinal violation of the rules of political correctness, which hold that soldiers are only supposed to talk about the anguish, trauma, and post-traumatic stress disorder they experience; they are never supposed to comment on the thrill of the kill.

Defense Secretary Bob Gates and President Obama deserve considerable credit for not letting this minor fracas stop them from appointing Mattis as Petraeus’s successor at Centcom. What they undoubtedly know, and what the rest of the world will discover, is that Mattis is not only a “warrior’s warrior” (as he is described in the Times) but also a “diplomat’s diplomat.” In his JFCOM role, he was for a while responsible for NATO force transformation, which required him to press NATO officials to do more to upgrade their armed forces. He was not always successful (who would be?), but he was by all accounts a compelling and persuasive diplomat. He has become known for sending everyone he meets a personal “thank you” note — not a standard-issue form but rather a letter that reflects on the substance of the conversation.

I got one myself after hosting Mattis for an off-the-record roundtable at the Council on Foreign Relations. Given the ground rules, I can’t discuss what he said, but I can mention the impression he made on some jaded Council members in New York. He wowed them by combining the erudition of a Harvard professor with a combat grunt’s gift for aphorism. He showed why he is revered not only as a combat leader but also as an intellectual whose personal library of military works runs to thousands of volumes. It is hard to imagine a better choice to head Central Command. I trust he will enjoy smooth sailing in the Senate confirmation process. Max Boot
That quote from him about Taliban men may not be politically correct for an officer, but damn if it isn't one of the best quotes I've ever read!

Former Join Chiefs Chairman Peter Pace was another general who I thought had a magical way of dealing with people, especially the press, but whose career was essentially ended by an unpolitically correct remark; this one on the morality of homosexuality. The first time I saw him at a press conference after he took over as JCC, I was absolutely floored. I had never heard a general with that kind of gift for being able to communicate. He struck me as someone who could have a future in politics if he wanted one.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:18 pm

Barry wrote: Former Join Chiefs Chairman Peter Pace was another general who I thought had a magical way of dealing with people, especially the press, but whose career was essentially ended by an unpolitically correct remark; this one on the morality of homosexuality. The first time I saw him at a press conference after he took over as JCC, I was absolutely floored. I had never heard a general with that kind of gift for being able to communicate. He struck me as someone who could have a future in politics if he wanted one.
Still hung up on those self-disqualifying candidates, eh Barry? :wink:

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by HoustonDavid » Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:01 pm

I have also been surprised - negatively - by Peter Pace's remarks in public regarding
homosexuals in the military service. Essentially, I think his remarks are antediluvian
in this day and age. It is quite apparent that a new generation of warriors think so too.
There will always be those in military and civilian life who are homophobic, as well as
racist and sexist, but they are a minority.

I agree with you Barry about the necessity of civilian authority over the military. History
has shown too many instances of military coups in unstable political situations in other
countries. President Truman made a ground-breaking and correct decision in 1951-52 to
sack an insubordinate General MacArthur, who was also very popular at the time. Truman
received hugely negative press for his action, but history has proven him correct.

It is sad that General McChrystal thought his feelings about his superiors would remain
his secret, but sometimes a few drinks loosen tongues. I thought he was a teetotaler, but
maybe only when "in country". Once the word was out, he was a goner. I'm pretty sure he
must have known he was out-of-line after 34 years of being an officer under somebody's
command.

Salty Marine generals like Mattis are historic in the Marine Corps, probably going back to
1775 when the Corps was formed. Can't say I don't agree with him that shooting some of
the bad guys can be "fun", but only in the same sense that cops and warriors have a kind
of "dark" humor that gets them through their days of having to kill people. It's part of what
keeps them from cracking under the enormous stress of their chosen professions.
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:26 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:It is sad that General McChrystal thought his feelings about his superiors would remain
his secret, but sometimes a few drinks loosen tongues. I thought he was a teetotaler, but
maybe only when "in country". Once the word was out, he was a goner. I'm pretty sure he
must have known he was out-of-line after 34 years of being an officer under somebody's
command.
David, you are getting part of the story wrong, McChrystal spoke out of turn about Joe Biden, the Diplomats, and the French Minister, he was a teetotaler, it was his aides that got drunk and shot off their mouths to Rolling Stone, he resigned and got Obama to agree that there would be no inquiry, and, that none of them would be disciplined, ultimately, he fell on his sword to protect his men...
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:27 pm

An officer and a gentleman. That's what good soldiers do, they protect their men.
I originally thought he was a teetotaler, but the stories were not clear on the subject
and it was easier to believe that liquor loosened his tongue. Thanks for the clarification.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

John F
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by John F » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:55 am

We've been through all this before, haven't we? Comprehensively. Let's not sentimentalize Gen. McChrystal and try to explain away the reasons he had to resign. Beyond what he himself said on the record, he permitted and thus tacitly encouraged a culture of disrespect for superiors if not insubordination in his HQ, and allowed this to be exposed for all the world to see. In the military this is one of the deadly sins, whether you personally feel respect for your superiors you absolutely must show them respect publicly, as Gen. McChrystal well knew after 34 years in the Army - I learned it in the first week of basic training. He was asking for it and he got it. End of story.
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:24 am

John F wrote:We've been through all this before, haven't we? Comprehensively. Let's not sentimentalize Gen. McChrystal and try to explain away the reasons he had to resign. Beyond what he himself said on the record, he permitted and thus tacitly encouraged a culture of disrespect for superiors if not insubordination in his HQ, and allowed this to be exposed for all the world to see. In the military this is one of the deadly sins, whether you personally feel respect for your superiors you absolutely must show them respect publicly, as Gen. McChrystal well knew after 34 years in the Army - I learned it in the first week of basic training. He was asking for it and he got it. End of story.
So what if we have discussed this before, you're not a Moderator, we are discussing this because I brought (Marine) General Matthis into the conversation because he is (hopefully) the new head of CENTCOM...he's a little like The Big Mac in his blustery way with words, so I think it's relevant to the topic...

As Gates said, McChrystal probably killed more enemies of this country that any other soldier, he ran the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) which was assigned to the Office of the Joint Chiefs, and he reported only to the Joint Chiefs (and Cheney) The existence of his operation was always denied just like Delta Force until he captured and killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and it was made public because McChrystal personally went to identify his body...but, you knew all that of course, and, yet don't believe that you owe him the time of day, let along gratitude for his 34 years of service...

Oh, yea, he covered up the truth about Pat Tillman too...he had his reasons for that, which involved protecting his Commander in Chief...he's done more than his fair share of "dirty work" as he ran Black Op's for Cheney, including Task Force 6-26, he's a superb and beloved Soldier and should be remembered as such, not for speaking out of line, we owe him a better exit than the one that you think he deserves...

PS, Werner also agrees with you and that I am dead wrong to defend McChrystal, we discussed it at the Meet Up, both of you are welcome to your opinion...I said at the beginning that most of you disagree with me, I acknowledge that, but, it is my Constitutional Right to praise him if I so wish...
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by ch1525 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:01 pm

John F wrote:...disrespect for superiors...
Obama is certainly not superior to McChrystal! Everyone in the military knows it, too. That's one of the problems with letting an ideological community organizer control troops in a war.

McChrystal has done more good for this country than Obama will ever do.

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Donald Isler » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:06 pm

Obama WAS McChrystal's superior, according to the Constitution whatever anyone's opinion of either one is. You can't diss the commander-in-chief and get away with it. Well, perhaps you can in a banana republic, but we're not there yet!
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by HoustonDavid » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:20 pm

Chad, what is it you don't understand about the role of the government and their
authority over the military? God help us if it were the other way around. President
Obama (whatever you might personally think of him) is the Commander in Chief of
absolutely everyone in the military from the lowliest new buck private to the Chairman
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. President Obama ceased to be an "ideological community
organizer" many years ago and as President he is and was General McChrystal's
superior officer. As Donald said, if you want to live in a banana republic where military
dictators rule with an iron fist, please go there. Otherwise respect the Constitution of
the country you live in. If you don't like how things are being run, you have the power
of the ballot box to change it.
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by ch1525 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:35 pm

Lol, I meant Obama was not a superior person to McChrystal. I certainly understand the chain of military command. I just think Obama being at the top is a damn joke. A dangerous joke.

Liberals lecturing a conservative on the Constitution. How funny!!! :roll:

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by HoustonDavid » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:41 pm

According to that very same Constitution, that is called "freedom of speech". :wink: :wink:
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by John F » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:50 pm

ch1525 wrote:
John F wrote:...disrespect for superiors...
Obama is certainly not superior to McChrystal!
The President is certainly the General's superior in the chain of command, which of course is what I was speaking of. Presidents can and do fire generals; generals can't fire Presidents, not in this country anyway.

And if you didn't know, for a commissioned officer to express contempt toward high officials and bodies of the United States and the several states is a court-martial offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice:

ART. 88 - CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

The maximum punishment if convicted is dismissal from the service, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:25 pm

John F wrote:Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
That rule is very carefully crafted, it also protects an Officer's right to free speech, he may say what he likes about Mayor's and any official below those you mentioned, a member of the Military may also display their Political Party of choice on their car too...most of them are Republicans although that may be changing over time, it's why their Absentee Ballots are so important in Presidential Elections...

Also Chad, all kidding aside, McChrystal is a Democrat/Liberal, he Endorsed and Voted for Obama... :wink:
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:20 pm

I met up last night with a guy who grew up around the corner from me who got back in touch with me via facebook last year.

Turns out he was in the Army for a decade and now does contractor work for the military through Lockheed-Martin. He's living in Djibouti for a couple years and is home for a visit. He also told me there isn't much respect for Obama among the current fighting men and women (he just about exploded when I mentioned Obama's public airing of our withdraw timeline for Afghanistan). But I still agree with those who say it's absolutely necessary for officers to hold those negative thoughts about the Commander in Chief when talking in a public forum.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Werner » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:40 pm

Agreed.
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:30 pm

Barry wrote:But I still agree with those who say it's absolutely necessary for officers to hold those negative thoughts about the Commander in Chief when talking in a public forum.
I agree in principle with that, but, let me re-phrase your point...

The General in charge and responsible for an entire War, should not make comments about a Commander in Chief who is not interested in that War, who only checks in on a monthly basis, and, who is not paying any attention to his personal plan for that War, and, who is not making sure his Diplomats are acting in unison together with that General, who is deadly serious about the War he is fighting and in charge of...

I'm sure you will both still disagree with me, I have no problem with that...
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by ch1525 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:37 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Also Chad, all kidding aside, McChrystal is a Democrat/Liberal, he Endorsed and Voted for Obama... :wink:
Yes, I knew that, but I read somewhere that he came to regret that decision pretty quickly.
Chalkperson wrote:
Barry wrote:But I still agree with those who say it's absolutely necessary for officers to hold those negative thoughts about the Commander in Chief when talking in a public forum.
I agree in principle with that, but, let me re-phrase your point...

The General in charge and responsible for an entire War, should not make comments about a Commander in Chief who is not interested in that War, who only checks in on a monthly basis, and, who is not paying any attention to his personal plan for that War, and, who is not making sure his Diplomats are acting in unison together with that General, who is deadly serious about the War he is fighting and in charge of...

I'm sure you will both still disagree with me, I have no problem with that...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

So true, Chalkie!

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:38 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Barry wrote:But I still agree with those who say it's absolutely necessary for officers to hold those negative thoughts about the Commander in Chief when talking in a public forum.
I agree in principle with that, but, let me re-phrase your point...

The General in charge and responsible for an entire War, should not make comments about a Commander in Chief who is not interested in that War, who only checks in on a monthly basis, and, who is not paying any attention to his personal plan for that War, and, who is not making sure his Diplomats are acting in unison together with that General, who is deadly serious about the War he is fighting and in charge of...

I'm sure you will both still disagree with me, I have no problem with that...
Well, you know I agree with you on Obama's failures as Commander-in-Chief. But we're talking about something much bigger than any one President or set of circumstances. It's one of the bedrocks of our system.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:53 pm

Barry wrote:Well, you know I agree with you on Obama's failures as Commander-in-Chief. But we're talking about something much bigger than any one President or set of circumstances. It's one of the bedrocks of our system.
And we can't touch those bedrocks, now can we, but, this only happens once every fifty years and I don't know too much about MacArthur, but, I think he spoke out a little more forcefully and the circumstances were far more dangerous, like wanting to Invade and start a War with China, for example... :wink:
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:01 pm

ch1525 wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Also Chad, all kidding aside, McChrystal is a Democrat/Liberal, he Endorsed and Voted for Obama... :wink:
Yes, I knew that, but I read somewhere that he came to regret that decision pretty quickly.
Maybe he was sucked into the Messiah's BS, just like the rest of us... :lol:
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by rwetmore » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:26 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Maybe he was sucked into the Messiah's BS, just like the rest of us... :lol:
Not me. I saw him as an absolutely enormous gamble very early on. Zero qualifications and a immensely shady background. I don't really blame the public for voting for him - they didn't have the information they needed to know to properly assess him because the media essentially withheld it from them in the critical weeks before the election.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:30 pm

rwetmore wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Maybe he was sucked into the Messiah's BS, just like the rest of us... :lol:
Not me. I saw him as an absolutely enormous gamble very early on. Zero qualifications and a immensely shady background. I don't really blame the public for voting for him - they didn't have the information they needed to know to properly assess him because the media essentially withheld it from them in the critical weeks before the election.
I saw a recent poll in which a majority indicated they now feel it would have been better off if McCain had been elected. I know he made some blunders during the campaign, but I still am dumbfounded that so many people thought the choice between the two was a no-brainer, with Obama the only option when you look at their comparative experience and all of the difficult decisions and actions McCain made for the good of the country during his long military and political career. It made absolutely no sense to me. And yet I had liberals tell me there was absolutely no valid reason to consider voting for McCain over Obama.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by rwetmore » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:43 pm

Barry wrote:I saw a recent poll in which a majority indicated they now feel it would have been better off if McCain had been elected.
I'm not surprised at all. I suspected many would regret their vote and wish they had gone for McCain. At least McCain was a fully known quantity - you knew exactly what you were getting.
Barry wrote:I know he made some blunders during the campaign, but I still am dumbfounded that so many people thought the choice between the two was a no-brainer, with Obama the only option when you look at their comparative experience and all of the difficult decisions and actions McCain made for the good of the country during his long military and political career. It made absolutely no sense to me. And yet I had liberals tell me there was absolutely no valid reason to consider voting for McCain over Obama.
I think a large part of it was in their minds that election had to be a referendum on Bush.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

Barry
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:54 pm

rwetmore wrote:
Barry wrote:I saw a recent poll in which a majority indicated they now feel it would have been better off if McCain had been elected.
I'm not surprised at all. I suspected many would regret their vote and wish they had gone for McCain. At least McCain was fully known quantity - you knew what you were getting.
Barry wrote:I know he made some blunders during the campaign, but I still am dumbfounded that so many people thought the choice between the two was a no-brainer, with Obama the only option when you look at their comparative experience and all of the difficult decisions and actions McCain made for the good of the country during his long military and political career. It made absolutely no sense to me. And yet I had liberals tell me there was absolutely no valid reason to consider voting for McCain over Obama.
I think a large part of it was in their minds that election had to be a referendum on Bush.
I agree. And that's understandable to a point because of Bush's extreme unpopularity. He took us into a war that became very unpopular and the economy was a wreck when he left office.
I think the mistake a lot of people made was putting too much emphasis on how they campaigned and ran their campaigns, and not enough on their actual track-records and life experiences. People dismissed McCain's refusal to accept preferential treatment in not going home early from being a POW when he was given the chance as irrelevant. But to me, it said a lot about his character. Yes, he panders to win elections like just about every other politician. But when push comes to shove on matters of national security, he has demonstrated both an understanding of how to go into and get out of a war and also the will and backbone that is necessary in a strong wartime leader in a way that Obama clearly hadn't.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:12 pm

Sorry guys, but, Sarah Palin as Vice President, a bold gamble that thankfully failed... :wink:

Edited multiple times as I could not decide on the correct way to address Madame Palin...
Last edited by Chalkperson on Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by rwetmore » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:12 pm

Barry wrote:I agree. And that's understandable to a point because of Bush's extreme unpopularity. He took us into a war that became very unpopular and the economy was a wreck when he left office. I think the mistake a lot of people made was putting too much emphasis on how they campaigned and ran their campaigns, and not enough on their actual track-records and life experiences. People dismissed McCain's refusal to accept preferential treatment in not going home early from being a POW when he was given the chance as irrelevant. But to me, it said a lot about his character. Yes, he panders to win elections like just about every other politician. But when push comes to shove on matters of national security, he has demonstrated both an understanding of how to go into and get out of a war and also the will and backbone that is necessary in a strong wartime leader in a way that Obama clearly hadn't.
Yes, he probably would have been a good wartime president, but other than that I've never been very impressed with him. I don't think he's very bright or knowledgeable at all, especially in regards to domestic issues. And the political pandering and the "maverick" thing comes across as a bit self-centered to me. He was a lousy candidate who ran an even lousier campaign. Still he would have been infinitely better than Obama.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

rwetmore
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by rwetmore » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:18 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Sorry guys, but, Sarah Palin as Vice President, a bold gamble that thankfully failed... :wink:
Yes a bold gamble, but more importantly an unnecessary gamble. Pawlenty was the right choice because he was fairly neutral and without any major baggage.
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

Barry
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by Barry » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:27 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Sorry guys, but, Sarah Palin as Vice President, a bold gamble that thankfully failed... :wink:

Edited multiple times as I could not decide on the correct way to address Madame Palin...
I'm not a fan of hers, but I've never voted based on a VP pick, and I wasn't about to start.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:00 am

The thought of Vice President Sarah Palin being one heart beat (or lack thereof)
away from President of the United States still gives me nightmares. :mrgreen: I certainly
hope any campaign by her for Republican (or Tea Party) nomination for the
Presidential ticket will be aborted before reaching the 2012 convention(s). History
says the American voters eventually see the light and get things right, but that
one really scares me. :mrgreen: Many of us thought G.W. Bush lacked the intelligence
needed for the Presidency; what should we think of Ms. Palin?
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by ch1525 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:23 am

HoustonDavid wrote:what should we think of Ms. Palin?
Whatever the media wants you to! :lol:

rwetmore
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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by rwetmore » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:42 pm

ch1525 wrote:Whatever the media wants you to! :lol:
Good one!
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by lennygoran » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:54 pm

>but I still am dumbfounded that so many people thought the choice between the two was a no-brainer,<

For me choosing Palin was the final straw. And yet I was watching a PBS show today that said if she was running against Obama today she would win. Regards, Len

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:51 am

lennygoran wrote:>but I still am dumbfounded that so many people thought the choice between the two was a no-brainer,<

For me choosing Palin was the final straw. And yet I was watching a PBS show today that said if she was running against Obama today she would win. Regards, Len
Maybe it's a good time to start a campaign for a recall amendment to the Constitution.

If she gets elected, she'd make a fine Curly (as in Moe, Larry and):

Image

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by lennygoran » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:06 am

>If she gets elected, she'd make a fine Curly (as in Moe, Larry and):<

Haven't seen them in years but as a kid I loved them! I know I can see all I want of them from YouTube! I could definitely identify with Palin's block on mispronunciations--I've had opera lovers going crazy with the way I pronounce titles and composers :)

"Remember that vice presidential debate in 2008, when then-Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin said to then-Sen. Joe Biden, "Hey, can I call you Joe?"

Well, it turns out that the Republican candidate for vice president couldn't remember Biden's name. Palin kept crossing his name with presidential candidate Barack Obama's, calling him O'Biden.

Palin has already confessed to this reflexive habit, recalling on page 289 of her memoir:

During rehearsals, I accidently called Randy “Senator O’Biden” — a slip of the tongue combination of Obama and Biden. The blunder struck too often, even tripping up campaign staffers. (Jay Leno later made the same slip on his new talk show, so we were in good company.) We laughed about it but knew that if I said it even once during the debate, it would be disastrous. Then somebody said, “You ought to just call him Joe.” ... So that’s what we decided I would do. We had no idea my mic would already be hot when I walked onstage, crossed over to his turf, and said, “Can I call you Joe?” The “expert” post-debate analysis was that my question was a cleverly devised strategy to disarm my opponent. Yeah, right."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... -name.html


Still the interview with Katie Couric was really alarming for me--mispronunciation is one thing--lack of expertise and knowledge for a presidential candidate is another! Regards, Len

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Re: Emotional Retirement Ceremony for General McChrystal

Post by John F » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:23 am

Chalkperson wrote:That rule is very carefully crafted, it also protects an Officer's right to free speech, he may say what he likes about Mayor's and any official below those you mentioned, a member of the Military may also display their Political Party of choice on their car too...most of them are Republicans although that may be changing over time, it's why their Absentee Ballots are so important in Presidential Elections...
And I was interested to learn that an officer can diss the governor and legislature of any other state than the one he's in. That leaves a lot of scope. For example, if Sarah Palin were still governor of Alaska...
John Francis

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