Odd situations in life

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piston
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Odd situations in life

Post by piston » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:59 pm

Share some of your own situations, if you wish.

This one happened this very morning, at a funeral service I attended. The officiating priest became disoriented during the homily, attempted to make his way to the sacristy but fell to the ground half way there. We understood from a local nurse that it was probably a diabetic condition and, later, heard someone state that he had suffered a heart attack. Naturally, we are all praying that he will be all right and hopeful that he currently is not in a life-threatening condition.

That's not why this situation was odd; what followed is. Of the three people who assisted him at that church --two male deacons and one sister-- the nun was the best informed about how to bring this funeral service to a close. But, of course, she is not allowed to fulfill the functions of a priest or a deacon. So this brave sister stood at the altar, between both deacons, and guided them, step by step, through the rest of the ceremony. This odd situation would not have been taken lightly if a representative from the Vatican had been there. About a month ago, the Vatican issued an announcement which placed women priesthood in the same criminal category than that of the molestation of children by male priests. You will find below how the Roman Catholic Womenpriests organization responded to this announcement:
Vatican: Ordination of Women a Grave Crime-
Roman Catholic Womenpriests
Respond With Demand for Justice for Women in the Church

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
From Roman Catholic Womenpriests-USA

Press Release: July 15, 2010 Vatican: Ordination of Women a Grave Crime - Roman Catholic Womenpriests Respond with demand for Justice for Women in the Church and for Survivors of Sexual Abuse

The ordination of women appeared on the list of most serious crimes against Roman Catholic canon law, or "delicta graviora" – putting it in the same category as sexual abuse of children by priests - according to Vatican Information Service http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2010/07/ ... -most.html .

Roman Catholic Womenpriests respond to the Vatican’s equating women’s ordination with pedophilia by priests, by demanding the Vatican affirm women's full equality in the church including priestly ministry.

We demand an end to misogyny in the Catholic Church.

We demand that the Vatican adopt reforms to transform church laws and practices to reflect transparency, accountability, justice and equality for all.

Roman Catholic Womenpriests believe that the document from the Vatican is intended to specifically scare off male priests who choose to walk in solidarity with us for justice for women in our church. Priests like Roy Bourgeois, Maryknoll priest of 38 years, founder of the School of the Americas Watch and 2010 nominee for the Nobel Prize for Peace. Bourgeois participated in the ordination of Janice Sevre-Duszynska in Lexington, Kentucky, on Aug. 9, 2008.

We are welcomed with open arms and hearts by the people at the grassroots of the church. Yet, our brother priests- the Vatican’s all-male hierarchy- in May 2008, declared that we and the person ordaining us would be self-excommunicating ourselves. The Vatican has also said that anyone who attends ordinations would be excommunicated. That threat has not deterred the faithful who come in droves to Roman Catholic women’s ordinations all over the United States. Roman Catholic Womenpriests numbers have erupted from seven to over 100 in the last eight years since the first ordination in 2002 on the Danube in Europe. The Vatican continues to respond to women’s ordinations with condemnation of everyone who supports the movement for women priests within the Catholic Church. However, Womenpriests are being supported widely by the hundreds of Catholics attending every public ordination.

Instead of excommunications and condemnations, the Vatican would do well to correct the damaging behaviors of patriarchy, the abuse of spiritual power. We suggest that the Vatican begin true renewal of itself by ending clergy abuses of power of all kinds towards nuns, women priests, and lay women in the Church who have been oppressed and exploited for millennia. As with those who have survived the sexual abuse of clergy, these women are likewise victims of the abuse of clerical power.

RCWP has asked the member states of the United Nations to support us in our quest for and for women within the Roman Catholic Church and for justice for victims of Catholic clergy sexual abuse. It is unjust and discriminatory that the males at the Vatican continue to deny us employment and decision-making within the Roman Catholic Church. This behavior is a violation of international law, our human rights, the example of Jesus and the integrity of conscience
Anyway, it was a very odd situation and nobody in church was troubled by the sister's initiative. To the contrary, they were most grateful that someone, anyone, could replace the priest to finish the ceremony.

Again, feel free to share some odd situations you have recently experienced.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:42 pm

It beats me why RC women want to be priests. Anyone of an age to aspire to a vocation has had only post-Vatican-II priests as role models and only Novus Ordo "ceremonial" to lift them up. Unless they are thinking they've got to be able to do better than what they have known, I have to wonder why they're bothering.

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piston
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by piston » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:09 pm

I don't see it that way. Catholics, like any other religious practitioners, will always need spiritual guidance, sound values, and people to look up to in times of personal difficulties or loss. I bet you this nun could have given us a more inspiring, and void-filling, homily than "Our beloved sister, like Martha of Bethany, was a good cook." (I'm being unfair, here, due to the priest's physical condition at the time, but it is what we got!).
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by jack stowaway » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:32 pm

jbuck919 wrote:It beats me why RC women want to be priests. Anyone of an age to aspire to a vocation has had only post-Vatican-II priests as role models and only Novus Ordo "ceremonial" to lift them up. Unless they are thinking they've got to be able to do better than what they have known, I have to wonder why they're bothering.
Surely, not the point. Women are forbidden from becoming priests. Pure misogyny, however much dressed in theological vestments.

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:06 am

jack stowaway wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:It beats me why RC women want to be priests. Anyone of an age to aspire to a vocation has had only post-Vatican-II priests as role models and only Novus Ordo "ceremonial" to lift them up. Unless they are thinking they've got to be able to do better than what they have known, I have to wonder why they're bothering.
Surely, not the point. Women are forbidden from becoming priests. Pure misogyny, however much dressed in theological vestments.
Protestants differ - some denominations allow women senior pastors and some don't... Most do allow women to be associate pastors and such... When I hear the theological explanation from each group it seems the group allowing women senior pastors are stretching the text.

I've never felt misogyny was involved, in fact, quite the opposite - I find that there is deep regret among leadership as they follow what they believe to be obedience to Scripture.

While I've done some thinking on the subject, I've not made my mind up, and I'm in the fortunate position of having a non-impact on the matter when I do make my mind up. :D

Obviously women are capable of being outstanding in such leadership, but that's not the point. The point is that Scripture has established hierarchical systems and, in fact, exclusive roles in many things for different reasons.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:19 am

keaggy220 wrote:[The point is that Scripture has established hierarchical systems and, in fact, exclusive roles in many things for different reasons.
Primarily to keep the men who wrote "scripture" and their male progeny in power.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:47 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:[The point is that Scripture has established hierarchical systems and, in fact, exclusive roles in many things for different reasons.
Primarily to keep the men who wrote "scripture" and their male progeny in power.
I think deliberate poor interpretation of Scripture has caused many issues you are referring too. Up until the last century many people were illiterate and some church leaders took advantage, but those days are behind us. Personally, I think if you read Scripture you'll find it's a revelation which liberates and empowers women - even by today's standards - but outrageously so during the time when Scripture was written.

There are numerous reasons why more women attend church than men and I believe one is the valued position, and yes, equal position they hold with men throughout Scripture...

I believe men fear church because Scripture reveals the ideal man and it's the rare man who is capable of attempting this Everest.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

living_stradivarius
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:14 am

keaggy220 wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:[The point is that Scripture has established hierarchical systems and, in fact, exclusive roles in many things for different reasons.
Primarily to keep the men who wrote "scripture" and their male progeny in power.
I think deliberate poor interpretation of Scripture has caused many issues you are referring too. Up until the last century many people were illiterate and some church leaders took advantage, but those days are behind us. Personally, I think if you read Scripture you'll find it's a revelation which liberates and empowers women - even by today's standards - but outrageously so during the time when Scripture was written.

There are numerous reasons why more women attend church than men and I believe one is the valued position, and yes, equal position they hold with men throughout Scripture...

I believe men fear church because Scripture reveals the ideal man and it's the rare man who is capable of attempting this Everest.
I used to think the same way you did, a blind Churchgoer (sola fide as the Protestants called it), that is until I read all of Scripture and realized it was nothing more than a human invention. Yes, there are plenty of profound ideas in there we can draw and learn from, but there is plenty more we can draw with the reasoning that makes us aware of how we draw (heuristics) those ideas from the text. The past 30-40 of years of postmodern analysis of Scripture, if you read all of it, has opened humanity to more possibilities than good ol' Christian values could ever teach us. Not to mention all the archaic things in the text, such as the question of this topic, that are making us fall behind.
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keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:33 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:[The point is that Scripture has established hierarchical systems and, in fact, exclusive roles in many things for different reasons.
Primarily to keep the men who wrote "scripture" and their male progeny in power.
I think deliberate poor interpretation of Scripture has caused many issues you are referring too. Up until the last century many people were illiterate and some church leaders took advantage, but those days are behind us. Personally, I think if you read Scripture you'll find it's a revelation which liberates and empowers women - even by today's standards - but outrageously so during the time when Scripture was written.

There are numerous reasons why more women attend church than men and I believe one is the valued position, and yes, equal position they hold with men throughout Scripture...

I believe men fear church because Scripture reveals the ideal man and it's the rare man who is capable of attempting this Everest.
I used to think the same way you did, a blind Churchgoer (sola fide as the Protestants called it), that is until I read all of Scripture and realized it was nothing more than a human invention. Yes, there are plenty of profound ideas in there we can draw and learn from, but there is plenty more we can draw with the reasoning that makes us aware of how we draw (heuristics) those ideas from the text. The past 30-40 of years of postmodern analysis of Scripture, if you read all of it, has opened humanity to more possibilities than good ol' Christian values could ever teach us. Not to mention all the archaic things in the text, such as the question of this topic, that are making us fall behind.
I guess it's all in how you define falling behind or getting ahead...

I know this is not a fair question and likely would require a long complicated exchange, but what led you to believe Scripture to be a human invention? If you want to send me a private note that would be fine. If you can't take the time for such an exchange that's perfectly fine as well.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

living_stradivarius
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:38 am

For starters let's discuss the topic - whether women being forbidden from priesthood is justified. Earlier you mentioned there are perfectly good reasons for things being the way they are stated in Scripture... That's all we got. No reasoning or explanation whatsoever. The ball's still in your court.

The typical cop-out answer is that God has things planned for us beyond our comprehension and therefore we should accept them. I don't buy that. How is barring women from priesthood any different in principle from forcing women to wear headscarves? So what if Scripture compliments women for some of their characteristics? Back in the 1800s slave owners complimented black males for their strength and athleticism. That didn't change the fact that they were treated as second-class human beings.

I know this is not a fair question and likely would require a long complicated exchange, but what led you to believe Scripture to be a human invention? If you want to send me a private note that would be fine. If you can't take the time for such an exchange that's perfectly fine as well.
To make a long answer story short: Reason, empathy, and a continuous reading and analysis of Scripture with an open mind. Comparative reading and analysis also helps. You see more patterns emerge the more you read and understand the human penstroke.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by RebLem » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:14 am

The explanation I was always given was that only men can be priests because all the Apostles were men. But all the Apostles were circumcized, too, and the Church does not require priests to be circumcized, so I've always felt the logic does not hold up on that account.

So, why don't dissident Catholics just leave, I hear someone ask. Actually, Protestants ask that. Catholics know why. The one thing the institutional Church has all Catholics convinced of is that it is the one, holy, catholic (meaning universal), and apostolic church, the four marks of the True Church, with a direct, unbroken papal line of succession right back to St. Peter.

I see a certain irony here. The Catholic Church, although the most heirarchical of Christian churches, is also the most American. We do religion the way Americans do politics. We have a party system, and most people stay in their parties. Protestants, and Baptists especially, on the other hand, start a new congregation or even a new denomination at the drop of a hat. One little disagreement with how the Church should be run, and Baptists are off to start a new one. They do religion like the French and the Italians do politics. Catholics stay where they are and fight, and hang on for dear life.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by Teresa B » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:37 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:
I know this is not a fair question and likely would require a long complicated exchange, but what led you to believe Scripture to be a human invention? If you want to send me a private note that would be fine. If you can't take the time for such an exchange that's perfectly fine as well.
To make a long answer story short: Reason, empathy, and a continuous reading and analysis of Scripture with an open mind. Comparative reading and analysis also helps. You see more patterns emerge the more you read and understand the human penstroke.
Hmm...Can't say I've read any nonhuman penstrokes. Couldn't I dispute your claim by saying "The human penstroke is the necessary filter through which God has spoken"? Of course the human foibles attributed to the God of the Bible couldn't really apply to an omnipotent supreme being, but since men actually did the writing of Scripture, they interpreted God's mysterious actions in the only way they could--through human experience. I don't subscribe to that, but it is impossible to disprove that ultimately, God is the source of the messages in Scripture. Just like it's impossible to disprove that we are not the products of intelligent design by an advanced civilization beyond the Oort Cloud.

Teresa
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by jack stowaway » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:38 pm

Dang it, Teresa, I was having a lazy morning when I had to go look up 'Oort Cloud'.

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:03 pm

jack stowaway wrote:Dang it, Teresa, I was having a lazy morning when I had to go look up 'Oort Cloud'.
When I worked for the contractor that produced the NASA bibliographic database, they worked with something called a controlled vocabulary, meaning that documents were indexed with terms from a hierarchically structured thesaurus. I remember noticing that they used the term "Oort Clouds" as though we knew of more than one (in fact there is probably such a phenomenon in every solar system like ours, but the name is proper to the one we live in, like "Saturn" which would also not be pluralized to refer to any gas giant with rings anywhere in the universe). When I pointed out the problem, they changed it. Lexicographers are very particular folk.

Just my aside for the day. 8)

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by jack stowaway » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:10 pm

Not just lexicographers, John. You have an admirably fine eye for detail yourself.

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:24 pm

Teresa B wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:
I know this is not a fair question and likely would require a long complicated exchange, but what led you to believe Scripture to be a human invention? If you want to send me a private note that would be fine. If you can't take the time for such an exchange that's perfectly fine as well.
To make a long answer story short: Reason, empathy, and a continuous reading and analysis of Scripture with an open mind. Comparative reading and analysis also helps. You see more patterns emerge the more you read and understand the human penstroke.
Hmm...Can't say I've read any nonhuman penstrokes. Couldn't I dispute your claim by saying "The human penstroke is the necessary filter through which God has spoken"? Of course the human foibles attributed to the God of the Bible couldn't really apply to an omnipotent supreme being, but since men actually did the writing of Scripture, they interpreted God's mysterious actions in the only way they could--through human experience. I don't subscribe to that, but it is impossible to disprove that ultimately, God is the source of the messages in Scripture. Just like it's impossible to disprove that we are not the products of intelligent design by an advanced civilization beyond the Oort Cloud.

Teresa
Of course I can't prove or disprove a claim like that. The only point I'm making here is that Scripture, like any other religious text, was written by humans and as such (whether you believe in God or not) is subject to human self-interest (and flaws inherent from being non-omnipotent should you wish to believe that). If someone wants to believe something in Scripture without asking why or considering the practical implications, by all means they have a right to do it in their private lives. But we have the right to challenge such a practice when the issue has public ramifications. Now women's roles in the Catholic church may be considered in the private domain, but the institution is so large that the psychological and social effects are quite public. The same private-public arguments can be applied to the whole NY mosque debate.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by Teresa B » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:40 pm

living_stradivarious wrote:Of course I can't prove or disprove a claim like that. The only point I'm making here is that Scripture, like any other religious text, was written by humans and as such (whether you believe in God or not) is subject to human self-interest (and flaws inherent from being non-omnipotent should you wish to believe that). If someone wants to believe something in Scripture without asking why or considering the practical implications, by all means they have a right to do it in their private lives. But we have the right to challenge such a practice when the issue has public ramifications. Now women's roles in the Catholic church may be considered in the private domain, but the institution is so large that the psychological and social effects are quite public. The same private-public arguments can be applied to the whole NY mosque debate.
I was playing devil's advocate. :twisted: I'm with you.

Teresa
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Teresa B
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by Teresa B » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:42 pm

jack stowaway wrote:Dang it, Teresa, I was having a lazy morning when I had to go look up 'Oort Cloud'.
:lol: Sorry to be an inertia-buster!

Teresa
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:46 pm

Teresa B wrote:
living_stradivarious wrote:Of course I can't prove or disprove a claim like that. The only point I'm making here is that Scripture, like any other religious text, was written by humans and as such (whether you believe in God or not) is subject to human self-interest (and flaws inherent from being non-omnipotent should you wish to believe that). If someone wants to believe something in Scripture without asking why or considering the practical implications, by all means they have a right to do it in their private lives. But we have the right to challenge such a practice when the issue has public ramifications. Now women's roles in the Catholic church may be considered in the private domain, but the institution is so large that the psychological and social effects are quite public. The same private-public arguments can be applied to the whole NY mosque debate.
I was playing devil's advocate. :twisted: I'm with you.

Teresa
I know - I'm one too :). Just playing the argument out.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:55 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:For starters let's discuss the topic - whether women being forbidden from priesthood is justified. Earlier you mentioned there are perfectly good reasons for things being the way they are stated in Scripture... That's all we got. No reasoning or explanation whatsoever. The ball's still in your court.

The typical cop-out answer is that God has things planned for us beyond our comprehension and therefore we should accept them. I don't buy that. How is barring women from priesthood any different in principle from forcing women to wear headscarves? So what if Scripture compliments women for some of their characteristics? Back in the 1800s slave owners complimented black males for their strength and athleticism. That didn't change the fact that they were treated as second-class human beings.

I know this is not a fair question and likely would require a long complicated exchange, but what led you to believe Scripture to be a human invention? If you want to send me a private note that would be fine. If you can't take the time for such an exchange that's perfectly fine as well.
To make a long answer story short: Reason, empathy, and a continuous reading and analysis of Scripture with an open mind. Comparative reading and analysis also helps. You see more patterns emerge the more you read and understand the human penstroke.
As far as the justification some use to exclude women from a spiritual leadership role over men... It's mostly found in the following Scripture:

Timothy 2:11-14

There are others too, but they are a bit of a stretch.

However, I don't hold a definitive opinion on the subject. I guess I should do a little research.

I've always been suspect of using too much reason when it comes to any religion. How do you reason with miracles? And our reasoning is not, nor will it ever be perfected...

Empathy is interesting because I believe the Bible to be utterly empathetic. A God of perfect justice but at the same time a God of perfect mercy. Perfect justice requires death for the slightest of sins and perfect mercy pardons the sinner each time a sin is committed. How to rectify? Send one who dies in our place, who is representative of all - facing our same temptations yet without sin. You can't get much more empathetic.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:40 pm

keaggy220 wrote: As far as the justification some use to exclude women from a spiritual leadership role over men... It's mostly found in the following Scripture:

Timothy 2:11-14
I don't agree with Timothy 2:11-14 at all. You haven't provided any reasoning regarding why we should accept it, nor have you refuted my claim in my first reply to you in this thread. If you in fact claim that reason should be avoided when thinking about Scripture, then we have nothing more to discuss (aside from that point alone lol).
I've always been suspect of using too much reason when it comes to any religion. How do you reason with miracles? And our reasoning is not, nor will it ever be perfected...
You take biblical "miracles" as statements of fact, leaving no room for investigating or understanding what really happened. This kind of thinking spills over into the real world. When people believe that correlation = causation plenty of sh*t happens... Like liberals assuming deficit spending will miraculously save our economy ;) ;) ;). This applies to so many contentions between the Catholic church and science/analytical thinking that has taken us further than the rest of the world.
Empathy is interesting because I believe the Bible to be utterly empathetic. A God of perfect justice but at the same time a God of perfect mercy. Perfect justice requires death for the slightest of sins and perfect mercy pardons the sinner each time a sin is committed. How to rectify? Send one who dies in our place, who is representative of all - facing our same temptations yet without sin. You can't get much more empathetic.
To a certain extent Christianity contains relatively more empathy than Judaism and Islam. It's interesting that you believe God is of perfect mercy. So the same God who sanctioned the killing of rival tribes of the Israel of antiquity (including tricking them into circumcising themselves as a means of peaceful resolution -- but slaughtering them instead) somehow morphed into this wonderfully merciful one post-Christ. Aquinas struggled over the very question of how God could become "even more perfect..."
People, and I mean real life people, co-opted Judaism so that they could also be included as God's chosen people... eventually being chosen also meant being saved so they could assimilate more people. Also, according to Matthew 15:21-28, Jesus said that even dogs (Gentiles... or worse) would get crumbs -- implying they are second class to the Jews. Funny how modern "Gentiles" ignore that fact that Jesus (at least acc to Matthew) mixed some empathy in such a superiority complex.

A perfect, merciful God would not force "original sin" upon humanity and also require belief in a savior to be saved. This whole obsession with being saved in the afterlife is the source of irrational fear.

It's more empathetic (and genuine) to be kind to your fellow neighbor without the cloud of salvation floating in the back of your mind. So my pragmatic take on the Bible is this: Listen to the lessons of love from Jesus (with analysis of course), but keep all that selfish salvation crap out of it.


It's a good thing you're on the fence with this issue, because we can and should investigate why. Your indecision is telling us your heart (and rational mind) believe this Catholic rule to be unfair to women. The only thing holding you back is your fear of contravening what you see in Scripture and perhaps what you're being taught.
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BWV 1080
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:20 pm

If God created us so that we cannot help but sin, and then damn us to eternal torture for a nature over which we have no control then it is hardly mercy to arbitrarily choose a few select individuals to spare from flinging into the fiery pit

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:28 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote: As far as the justification some use to exclude women from a spiritual leadership role over men... It's mostly found in the following Scripture:

Timothy 2:11-14
I don't agree with Timothy 2:11-14 at all. You haven't provided any reasoning regarding why we should accept it, nor have you refuted my claim in my first reply to you in this thread. If you in fact claim that reason should be avoided when thinking about Scripture, then we have nothing more to discuss (aside from that point alone lol).
I've always been suspect of using too much reason when it comes to any religion. How do you reason with miracles? And our reasoning is not, nor will it ever be perfected...
You take biblical "miracles" as statements of fact, leaving no room for investigating or understanding what really happened. This kind of thinking spills over into the real world. When people believe that correlation = causation plenty of sh*t happens... Like liberals assuming deficit spending will miraculously save our economy ;) ;) ;). This applies to so many contentions between the Catholic church and science/analytical thinking that has taken us further than the rest of the world.
Empathy is interesting because I believe the Bible to be utterly empathetic. A God of perfect justice but at the same time a God of perfect mercy. Perfect justice requires death for the slightest of sins and perfect mercy pardons the sinner each time a sin is committed. How to rectify? Send one who dies in our place, who is representative of all - facing our same temptations yet without sin. You can't get much more empathetic.
To a certain extent Christianity contains relatively more empathy than Judaism and Islam. It's interesting that you believe God is of perfect mercy. So the same God who sanctioned the killing of rival tribes of the Israel of antiquity (including tricking them into circumcising themselves as a means of peaceful resolution -- but slaughtering them instead) somehow morphed into this wonderfully merciful one post-Christ. Aquinas struggled over the very question of how God could become "even more perfect..."
People, and I mean real life people, co-opted Judaism so that they could also be included as God's chosen people... eventually being chosen also meant being saved so they could assimilate more people. Also, according to Matthew 15:21-28, Jesus said that even dogs (Gentiles... or worse) would get crumbs -- implying they are second class to the Jews. Funny how modern "Gentiles" ignore that fact that Jesus (at least acc to Matthew) mixed some empathy in such a superiority complex.

A perfect, merciful God would not force "original sin" upon humanity and also require belief in a savior to be saved. This whole obsession with being saved in the afterlife is the source of irrational fear.

It's more empathetic (and genuine) to be kind to your fellow neighbor without the cloud of salvation floating in the back of your mind. So my pragmatic take on the Bible is this: Listen to the lessons of love from Jesus (with analysis of course), but keep all that selfish salvation crap out of it.


It's a good thing you're on the fence with this issue, because we can and should investigate why. Your indecision is telling us your heart (and rational mind) believe this Catholic rule to be unfair to women. The only thing holding you back is your fear of contravening what you see in Scripture and perhaps what you're being taught.
I'm not arguing for Timothy 2:11-14... I just pointed it out as the verse usually used to keep women from being spiritual leaders. I really don't know if I agree with it or not... I'm big into searching context for interpretation and I just haven't done enough research because frankly it's not been a big issue in my life.

I don't think reason should be avoided at all, I think it's important. However, in order to be a Christian you need to believe that God became man and died on a cross and rose three days later. And he did this to be the representative death and punishment for all who accept His sacrifice. We are decidedly outside the natural realm and firmly planted in the supernatural with this teaching.

The circumcision drama you are referring to is in Genesis 34 and I don't see where God sanctioned it - in fact he is curiously absent from the entire episode...

I'm not sure how you get the superiority complex thing from what you cite in Matthew... It's obvious if you read the entire passage that Jesus is testing the woman's faith.

Equating the empathy of Christianity to other religions just doesn't hold water. Other religions are about being good or bad and having cosmic scales that somehow weigh the good you've done versus the bad. How unfair is that?? Christianity has nothing to do with being good or bad or following a bunch of rules. It simply asks do you believe Christ saved you from eternal punishment through his death and resurrection?

I think you're right regarding Christians being kind and loving just so they can pounce on you with the gospel. I think that's obnoxious... However if a person truly believes you are going to hell because you have not accepted Christ, then it's not selfish to tell you - it's loving...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:35 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:If God created us so that we cannot help but sin, and then damn us to eternal torture for a nature over which we have no control then it is hardly mercy to arbitrarily choose a few select individuals to spare from flinging into the fiery pit
According to Genesis God created Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good or evil so theoretically they were created perfect. Once Adam and Eve decided to pursue the knowledge of good and evil they then had a freewill to choose good or evil.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:52 pm

keaggy220 wrote: I'm not arguing for Timothy 2:11-14... I just pointed it out as the verse usually used to keep women from being spiritual leaders. I really don't know if I agree with it or not... I'm big into searching context for interpretation and I just haven't done enough research because frankly it's not been a big issue in my life.

I don't think reason should be avoided at all, I think it's important.
If that's really the case, then ask yourself why you haven't decided whether or not you agree with patriarchy in the Bible (Timothy 2:11-14 etc.). Use reason. Like I mentioned earlier you're conflicted between what you know is right and what the text/others say is right. What "research" needs to be involved before you make a decision? Do you need to listen to the sophistry of priests before you make a determination?
The circumcision drama you are referring to is in Genesis 34 and I don't see where God sanctioned it - in fact he is curiously absent from the entire episode...
God sanctions the acts of Jacob's progeny throughout Genesis. In fact, the victories accorded to Israel are attributed to God throughout the Old Testament.

I'm not sure how you get the superiority complex thing from what you cite in Matthew... It's obvious if you read the entire passage that Jesus is testing the woman's faith.
And the "obvious point" of the passage does not negate the otherizing nature of his rhetoric -- leaving the crumbs for the Gentiles? Not even up to par with Plessy v Ferguson.
Equating the empathy of Christianity to other religions just doesn't hold water. Other religions are about being good or bad and having cosmic scales that somehow weigh the good you've done versus the bad. How unfair is that?? Christianity has nothing to do with being good or bad or following a bunch of rules.

It simply asks do you believe Christ saved you from eternal punishment through his death and resurrection?
Did I equate? No. I said it was better. But only relatively.
Believing in Christ is simply a specific extension of following a rule. The consequences in afterlife are stated, and an incentive mechanism is involved.

I think you're right regarding Christians being kind and loving just so they can pounce on you with the gospel. I think that's obnoxious... However if a person truly believes you are going to hell because you have not accepted Christ, then it's not selfish to tell you - it's loving...
I didn't say Christians were conscious of the problem and intentionally proselytized for the heck of it. I've been there, I've done that out of the "love" of my heart and I believed it too. In fact, part of the problem is that they are oblivious to the arbitrarily oppressive and antiquated parts of the text written by people who pretended to be holier than everyone else. The text is used as a scapegoat to accuse people of immorality and in the process reify the self-interest of those who wrote the text: "It isn't I who is damning you, it's God, you can't blame me for following the word of God..." :roll:

Just as you have advised folks not to equate the morality in Christianity with that of other religions, I would advise not to hold all parts of the text in the same, unquestionable regard. Lessons in the text that prove their worth the in real world deserve to be kept; those that prove oppressive should be repudiated.
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BWV 1080
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:12 pm

keaggy220 wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote:If God created us so that we cannot help but sin, and then damn us to eternal torture for a nature over which we have no control then it is hardly mercy to arbitrarily choose a few select individuals to spare from flinging into the fiery pit
According to Genesis God created Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good or evil so theoretically they were created perfect. Once Adam and Eve decided to pursue the knowledge of good and evil they then had a freewill to choose good or evil.

In orthodox Christian doctrine man does not have the freewill to freely choose good

a minority of Christian doctrines believe that man can freely choose to accept or reject divine grace, but that is not the same as being able to do good

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:02 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote:If God created us so that we cannot help but sin, and then damn us to eternal torture for a nature over which we have no control then it is hardly mercy to arbitrarily choose a few select individuals to spare from flinging into the fiery pit
According to Genesis God created Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good or evil so theoretically they were created perfect. Once Adam and Eve decided to pursue the knowledge of good and evil they then had a freewill to choose good or evil.

In orthodox Christian doctrine man does not have the freewill to freely choose good

a minority of Christian doctrines believe that man can freely choose to accept or reject divine grace, but that is not the same as being able to do good

There's a vast difference between choosing good and accepting or rejecting grace. If you always choose good then you never need to choose divine grace.

Of course you are referring to the two systems of explaining God's sovereign will and man's responsibility regarding salvation. However, a majority, not minority believe in Arminianism, which in a grossly simplified explanation basically means that God's hand is stretched out to all but man must respond. Calvinism believes God alone decides who gets in heaven. Arminianism is practiced by Methodists, Baptists, most Pentecostals and Evangelicals - i.e., all the growing segments of Christianity...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:52 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote: I'm not arguing for Timothy 2:11-14... I just pointed it out as the verse usually used to keep women from being spiritual leaders. I really don't know if I agree with it or not... I'm big into searching context for interpretation and I just haven't done enough research because frankly it's not been a big issue in my life.

I don't think reason should be avoided at all, I think it's important.
If that's really the case, then ask yourself why you haven't decided whether or not you agree with patriarchy in the Bible (Timothy 2:11-14 etc.). Use reason. Like I mentioned earlier you're conflicted between what you know is right and what the text/others say is right. What "research" needs to be involved before you make a decision? Do you need to listen to the sophistry of priests before you make a determination?
The circumcision drama you are referring to is in Genesis 34 and I don't see where God sanctioned it - in fact he is curiously absent from the entire episode...
God sanctions the acts of Jacob's progeny throughout Genesis. In fact, the victories accorded to Israel are attributed to God throughout the Old Testament.

I'm not sure how you get the superiority complex thing from what you cite in Matthew... It's obvious if you read the entire passage that Jesus is testing the woman's faith.
And the "obvious point" of the passage does not negate the otherizing nature of his rhetoric -- leaving the crumbs for the Gentiles? Not even up to par with Plessy v Ferguson.
Equating the empathy of Christianity to other religions just doesn't hold water. Other religions are about being good or bad and having cosmic scales that somehow weigh the good you've done versus the bad. How unfair is that?? Christianity has nothing to do with being good or bad or following a bunch of rules.

It simply asks do you believe Christ saved you from eternal punishment through his death and resurrection?
Did I equate? No. I said it was better. But only relatively.
Believing in Christ is simply a specific extension of following a rule. The consequences in afterlife are stated, and an incentive mechanism is involved.

I think you're right regarding Christians being kind and loving just so they can pounce on you with the gospel. I think that's obnoxious... However if a person truly believes you are going to hell because you have not accepted Christ, then it's not selfish to tell you - it's loving...
I didn't say Christians were conscious of the problem and intentionally proselytized for the heck of it. I've been there, I've done that out of the "love" of my heart and I believed it too. In fact, part of the problem is that they are oblivious to the arbitrarily oppressive and antiquated parts of the text written by people who pretended to be holier than everyone else. The text is used as a scapegoat to accuse people of immorality and in the process reify the self-interest of those who wrote the text: "It isn't I who is damning you, it's God, you can't blame me for following the word of God..." :roll:

Just as you have advised folks not to equate the morality in Christianity with that of other religions, I would advise not to hold all parts of the text in the same, unquestionable regard. Lessons in the text that prove their worth the in real world deserve to be kept; those that prove oppressive should be repudiated.
Actually the more I read and delve into this text the more I believe it means that women are not to teach and/or have authority over men in the church. It doesn't mean that they can't teach children or women and it doesn't mean women are inferior. In fact, it doesn't limit a woman outside the church. Paul specifically mentions Eve in this passage and seems to reference Gen 3:16.

Your Gen. 34 explanation doesn't work for me. If, like you say, Israel's victories are credited to God throughout the OT, than His omission in this passage makes it even more apparent God is uninvolved.

Again the passage in Matthew persuades me to believe that Jesus is using "tough talk" to stimulate faith. Some people respond to gentleness and some respond to harshness - the end result was healing.

If Christianity is real than accepting Christ as Savior is not a rule, it's accepting reality and laying down deception. I acknowledge my mother for who she is, not because it's a rule, but because it's reality. Compare that to other religions...

I find Christianity to be the very opposite of oppressive. I find it to be life-giving on many different levels. In fact I felt oppressed before I became a Christian. What's there to be oppressed about? The central message is that you've been forgiven for every wrong and you will live forever with your Creator in paradise. How great is that?
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

living_stradivarius
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:49 am

keaggy220 wrote: Actually the more I read and delve into this text the more I believe it means that women are not to teach and/or have authority over men in the church.
And your answer to the question "why" is...? Why are they not to teach or have authority over men in the church? Because some jerkwad wrote it in the Bible?

It doesn't mean that they can't teach children or women and it doesn't mean women are inferior.
And segregated schools didn't mean blacks and whites couldn't interact each other outside of school nor did those who enforced segregation outwardly claim that blacks were inferior. Thank goodness church life doesn't spill over into secular life -- oh wait, we have plenty of factions in the US who would love to kill Separation of Church and State, and it's happening all over the South. The oppression is inherent in a rule that enforces roles based on gender rather than on merit or ability.

Your Gen. 34 explanation doesn't work for me. If, like you say, Israel's victories are credited to God throughout the OT, than His omission in this passage makes it even more apparent God is uninvolved.
It's not just Genesis... Deuteronomy 7:17-26. I can list more. Leviticus 18:24... Psalm 33:16–18

Again the passage in Matthew persuades me to believe that Jesus is using "tough talk" to stimulate faith. Some people respond to gentleness and some respond to harshness - the end result was healing.
Jesus was a Jew. Tough talk or not, Gentiles are labeled as second class in those words written by Matthew. Christianity was really an attempt to jump on the Jewish bandwagon so that non-Jews could also feel special about themselves...
Most people respond to fear -- and that's how faith is stimulated. Fear of hell, fear of damnation. It's just sad.
If Christianity is real than accepting Christ as Savior is not a rule, it's accepting reality and laying down deception. I acknowledge my mother for who she is, not because it's a rule, but because it's reality. Compare that to other religions...
Not a rule but accepting reality. Hmm, if your underlying presumption (Christianity = real, whatever that means) is false, then the claim falls apart. How do you determine what's real or not? What method are you using to make that determination?
Honoring ones parents is what Jesus says to do according to Matthew. So where's the "reality"? Your argument above really needs some cleaning up. The way you used "real", "reality", and "acknowledge" are extremely vague.
I find Christianity to be the very opposite of oppressive. I find it to be life-giving on many different levels. In fact I felt oppressed before I became a Christian. What's there to be oppressed about? The central message is that you've been forgiven for every wrong and you will live forever with your Creator in paradise. How great is that?
On a relative scale it is less oppressive. But it is more oppressive than Atheism and Agnosticism in liberal societies that give women the same opportunities in all social spheres. And the reason you have the luxury to make that claim is precisely because modern Christianity has shed, over time, the oppressive practices of Christianity in antiquity. But science, education, and lifestyle choices are being oppressed today by said antiquated practices. Time to shed those too.
Last edited by living_stradivarius on Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by John F » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:13 am

Interesting discussion on both sides. I won't join in, but it just occurred to me how strange it is that the Bible, uniquely in our culture, may never be amended, except in the guise of retranslation and exegesis. The same for the Koran and other such texts, I suppose. The Vatican even updates the Latin language so that it can apply to modern life, but not the Bible. Like I say, strange.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:33 am

John F wrote:Interesting discussion on both sides. I won't join in, but it just occurred to me how strange it is that the Bible, uniquely in our culture, may never be amended, except in the guise of retranslation and exegesis. The same for the Koran and other such texts, I suppose. The Vatican even updates the Latin language so that it can apply to modern life, but not the Bible. Like I say, strange.
It's not just strange, it illustrates how the Bible has been used to meet the specific self-interests of a select group of people. This is incontrovertible, leaving all debate about the veracity of Scripture aside.
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:51 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
keaggy220 wrote: Actually the more I read and delve into this text the more I believe it means that women are not to teach and/or have authority over men in the church.
And your answer to the question "why" is...? Why are they not to teach or have authority over men in the church? Because some jerkwad wrote it in the Bible?

It doesn't mean that they can't teach children or women and it doesn't mean women are inferior.
And segregated schools didn't mean blacks and whites couldn't interact each other outside of school nor did those who enforced segregation outwardly claim that blacks were inferior. Thank goodness church life doesn't spill over into secular life -- oh wait, we have plenty of factions in the US who would love to kill Separation of Church and State, and it's happening all over the South. The oppression is inherent in a rule that enforces roles based on gender rather than on merit or ability.

Your Gen. 34 explanation doesn't work for me. If, like you say, Israel's victories are credited to God throughout the OT, than His omission in this passage makes it even more apparent God is uninvolved.
It's not just Genesis... Deuteronomy 7:17-26. I can list more. Leviticus 18:24... Psalm 33:16–18

Again the passage in Matthew persuades me to believe that Jesus is using "tough talk" to stimulate faith. Some people respond to gentleness and some respond to harshness - the end result was healing.
Jesus was a Jew. Tough talk or not, Gentiles are labeled as second class in those words written by Matthew. Christianity was really an attempt to jump on the Jewish bandwagon so that non-Jews could also feel special about themselves...
Most people respond to fear -- and that's how faith is stimulated. Fear of hell, fear of damnation. It's just sad.
If Christianity is real than accepting Christ as Savior is not a rule, it's accepting reality and laying down deception. I acknowledge my mother for who she is, not because it's a rule, but because it's reality. Compare that to other religions...
Not a rule but accepting reality. Hmm, if your underlying presumption (Christianity = real, whatever that means) is false, then the claim falls apart. How do you determine what's real or not? What method are you using to make that determination?
Honoring ones parents is what Jesus says to do according to Matthew. So where's the "reality"? Your argument above really needs some cleaning up. The way you used "real", "reality", and "acknowledge" are extremely vague.
I find Christianity to be the very opposite of oppressive. I find it to be life-giving on many different levels. In fact I felt oppressed before I became a Christian. What's there to be oppressed about? The central message is that you've been forgiven for every wrong and you will live forever with your Creator in paradise. How great is that?
On a relative scale it is less oppressive. But it is more oppressive than Atheism and Agnosticism in liberal societies that give women the same opportunities in all social spheres. And the reason you have the luxury to make that claim is precisely because modern Christianity has shed, over time, the oppressive practices of Christianity in antiquity. But science, education, and lifestyle choices are being oppressed today by said antiquated practices. Time to shed those too.
One person's jerkwad is another person's Apostle. The "why" in the passage that Paul appears to be citing is that Eve "led" Adam into the knowledge of good and evil. Of course depending on the whims of a particular generation or culture, this verse is sometimes controversial and sometimes it's not...

Using an example such as segregated schools is certainly inflammatory, but it lacks reason. Women are allowed in church, they are allowed in every facet and fiber of the church, save leading an entire congregation. There are plenty of successful secular institutions with rules much more limited for women than this... Or similar - like our military...

The OT passages you cite are not at all similar to the first one you cited. The "problem" with the first passage you cited was the deception used to defeat the enemy. The omission of God in those passages are actually what helps build my faith - the consistency of the character of God throughout the Scripture is amazing.... These new passages have no deception. Israel is the bloodline of Christ and at times they were favored by God in battle - but not always...

Obviously we disagree with the intention of Jesus in the one passage you cite in the Gospels... I like to look at the entire text when it comes time for me to get serious about learning about a teaching or individual in the Bible. In the case of Jesus, this is practically the entire Bible. This enables me to develop a character study which helps me determine motives in passages such as this... Obviously if you do a character study of Jesus you will find that he died on the cross for this women - so I feel confident that his intention was love. If I see a five year old about to run across the road headlong into traffic and the only thing I have time to grab is her ponytail would that be hateful of me?

I understand the struggle with reality. Pontius Pilate, the governor of the region who was in the middle of the trial that led to Jesus' crucifixion had the following exchange with Jesus:

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him."
(John 18:33-38)

Part of the struggle of investing all in one's own capacity for reason is frustrations of discernment. I believe reason can go a long ways down the road, but it can't quite make it to the destination without the help of faith.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by lennygoran » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:59 am

>There are plenty of successful secular institutions with rules much more limited for women than this... Or similar - like our military...There are plenty of successful secular institutions with rules much more limited for women than this... Or similar - like our military...<

But do two wrongs make a right--what other secular institutions are "much more limited?" And shouldn't we try to change those institutions unless there is some overwhelingly sound reason we shouldn't? Regards, Len

BWV 1080
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by BWV 1080 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:54 am

keaggy220 wrote:
There's a vast difference between choosing good and accepting or rejecting grace. If you always choose good then you never need to choose divine grace.
but no orthodox Christian belief ever said that man could "always choose good", nor does any belief system, arminian or not, hold that man can even choose divine grace of free will alone, in the Wesleyan tradition, prevenient grace is neccessary for one to chose to accept divine grace

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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:31 pm

lennygoran wrote:>There are plenty of successful secular institutions with rules much more limited for women than this... Or similar - like our military...There are plenty of successful secular institutions with rules much more limited for women than this... Or similar - like our military...<

But do two wrongs make a right--what other secular institutions are "much more limited?" And shouldn't we try to change those institutions unless there is some overwhelingly sound reason we shouldn't? Regards, Len
I'm left with wonder on how you have assumed even one wrong - but you'e jumped to two wrongs... Please explain...

Off the top of my head I think of the NAACP, Boy Scouts, Augusta National Golf Club, AARP, NOW - I'm sure if I took 5 minutes I could list many more...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
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Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:50 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
There's a vast difference between choosing good and accepting or rejecting grace. If you always choose good then you never need to choose divine grace.
but no orthodox Christian belief ever said that man could "always choose good", nor does any belief system, arminian or not, hold that man can even choose divine grace of free will alone, in the Wesleyan tradition, prevenient grace is neccessary for one to chose to accept divine grace
God, according to the Scriptures, created Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good and evil - they pursued it on their own and introduced it to humankind - thus the first solely humanistic endeavor - which of course ended tragically. Since we were made without the knowledge of good and evil, we were made without the ability to judge good and evil perfectly.

Arminianism holds that God's divine grace is not merited, but given freely anyway - so no man can boast... I picture it in my head like this: God's hand outstretched and open over the entire world and we need as individuals to respond by raising our hands.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by lennygoran » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:39 pm

>I'm left with wonder on how you have assumed even one wrong <

Well I thought it was clear the Catholic Church is discriminating against women. Thanks for the list of other organizations that may need to be checked out. Yep there may be more than two organizations that need correcting. Regards, Len

Cosima___J
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Location: Georgia

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by Cosima___J » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:39 pm

Just as an aside, the Methodist church has women as pastors. And not just as associate pastors, but as the sole pastor of the church. Here in Augusta, GA there have been a number of Methodist churches with woment pastors at the helm.

piston
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by piston » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:51 pm

Sixteen years ago, the Unitarian-Universalist Association and the United Church of Christ had the highest proportions. Between one quarter to one third of all pastors were female. The Free Methodist Church and the Southern Baptist Convention, on the other hand, were not much different from the Catholic Church, with one to four percent.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question3.html
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

piston
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by piston » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:57 pm

According to the Barna Group, the percentage of female senior pastors has doubled during the first decade of this millenium. Note however that their samples for the 1990s and 2000s are based on just over six hundred pastors.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:05 pm

lennygoran wrote:>I'm left with wonder on how you have assumed even one wrong <

Well I thought it was clear the Catholic Church is discriminating against women. Thanks for the list of other organizations that may need to be checked out. Yep there may be more than two organizations that need correcting. Regards, Len
The Catholic church does not allow men to be nuns... Are men being discriminated against? Of course not...

The whims of our present American generation finds it wise to integrate everything - I suppose if it were possible we would operate on every man so they could have the experience of pregnancy and breastfeeding.

But of course, it's all idle talk... If you look at our neighborhoods they are almost as segregated as they were 50 years ago. You may want to investigate that while you mull over your corrections. I find it all amusingly hypocritical.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

living_stradivarius
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Contact:

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by living_stradivarius » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:09 pm

Don't have much time to write today but the key question I posed for this thread still hasn't been answered: Why shouldn't women have the right to the same institutional/hierarchical position within the Catholic church as men have? Is it because Scripture says so? Then why? Please answer that for me. It seems quite contradictory to claim that Christianity is unique because it is based in belief rather than in following rules -- this whole "women can't be high-ranking priests" is pretty much an arbitrary rule...

At least with the military, we have a reason, and that is physical strength, which has practical, real world consequences. As for other segregated institutions, yes they are a problem, and we should do what we can to create competing open institutions.

Btw, YES men not being able to be nuns is discriminatory. But I have never seen men protest over that because they ALREADY have positions of power in the Church. Why settle for something "less"? The power dynamics involved are completely different -- nuns don't have nearly the same kind of influence or power the pope or his bishops have. I don't see the practicality of placing sexually frustrated priests into positions of power so that they can molest children.

About your comment on reality, those citations you provided did nothing to rephrase your argument. Failure to articulate oneself clearly and concisely about phenomenological terms is an indication that one has not nearly explored the depths of critical thinking and analysis. Your description of reality was extremely vague and all you did was add new, undefined terms to attempt to describe it. It's as if I asked you to define a car and all you did was say a car is something that looks like a Volkswagen. Thanks :roll: Might as would have said if I believed in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus I would become more enlightened.
Even with a basis in faith one should acknowledge that within the realm of reason much of the Bible is plain BS. If you choose to accept BS, that is your choice, but give reason the exploration and dedication it deserves in the real world we live in.

I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt and say he wanted people to love each other. That doesn't negate all the arguments placed forth here. I'm not willing to give the same leeway to the people who take advantage of that very message and enforce arbitrary rules somehow derived from Scripture.

And I don't know about your neighborhoods but the most vibrant, diverse communities are those that don't enforce religious rules -- certain liberal arts college campuses are but one example. Certain corporations are as well -- Google, Microsoft, Amazon...
Last edited by living_stradivarius on Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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piston
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by piston » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:31 pm

The historical function of nuns has been to serve the Church, in distinction to serving God. Of course they can serve God by serving the male clergy but only in that subordinate position.

A nun might be responsible for getting everything and everyone ready for a funeral service but she will be silent throughout the service, even if the deceased is a female member of the community about whom she knows far more than the male priest.

In this original "odd situation," the male priest not only knew nothing about our family member but he also knew next to nothing about the whole community: he had just been transfered there three weeks before!

After the service, it is that nun and her fellow sisters who hosted a family banquet for family and friends. Had the priest been in good health he would have joined us, sat down with us, and enjoyed the meal just like us. The sisters, for their part, were doing the running around.

Typical scenario!

During the Counter-Reformation, devout Catholic women formed new religious orders with the intention of being far more active, community wise, in the fight against the evils of Protestantism. Several sisters and devout laywomen in New France founded schools and hospitals in an effort to assume greater control over their own religious destinies. At every turn, they ran into some conflict with the male hierarchy.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

lennygoran
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by lennygoran » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:35 am

>The Catholic church does not allow men to be nuns...<

I think that's a poor analogy--what I thought was being discussed was that women don't have the same right to LEAD and have POWER as men. Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:11 am

lennygoran wrote:>The Catholic church does not allow men to be nuns...<

I think that's a poor analogy--what I thought was being discussed was that women don't have the same right to LEAD and have POWER as men. Regards, Len
So in your mind power and leading are superior so positions without these so called benefits are fine to segregate?

You didn't consider Mother Teresa powerful or a leader? How many priest's can you name off the top of your head with more power than she had...?

I think you will find many churches do not allow a man to lead women's groups. I've known the pastor at the church I attend for 20 years and I'm quite sure if I approached him about leading 20 women in a Wednesday night Bible study he would tell me to find something else to do on my Wednesday nights. And he would probably slap me on the shoulder and say nice try... :wink:
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15916
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by lennygoran » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:25 pm

>So in your mind power and leading are superior so positions without these so called benefits are fine to segregate? <

I don't believe I ever said that--also imo not a very good try at twisting things around. :) Let's get back to why you feel women are treated fairly in the Catholic church.

How about a response to this:

"Although the Papacy mandates that women not be ordained as priests, decreed by Biblical law, there is debate among people as to whether the interpretation of the law is valid. Many people believe that women are denied equal power in the church by their exclusion from the priesthood. Although women have other important roles in the church and can be nuns, none of the roles they play have the decision making capacity and the power that the priesthood has. In other words, they are denied access to the top of the hierarchy and thus cannot make other decisions and doctrine which could better women's situation in the church in general. Some women feel as though they are being cheated within their faith because they cannot become priests and therefore cannot counsel the congregation, say mass, and perform other priestly duties. "

Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:55 am

lennygoran wrote:>So in your mind power and leading are superior so positions without these so called benefits are fine to segregate? <

I don't believe I ever said that--also imo not a very good try at twisting things around. :) Let's get back to why you feel women are treated fairly in the Catholic church.

How about a response to this:

"Although the Papacy mandates that women not be ordained as priests, decreed by Biblical law, there is debate among people as to whether the interpretation of the law is valid. Many people believe that women are denied equal power in the church by their exclusion from the priesthood. Although women have other important roles in the church and can be nuns, none of the roles they play have the decision making capacity and the power that the priesthood has. In other words, they are denied access to the top of the hierarchy and thus cannot make other decisions and doctrine which could better women's situation in the church in general. Some women feel as though they are being cheated within their faith because they cannot become priests and therefore cannot counsel the congregation, say mass, and perform other priestly duties. "

Regards, Len
Okay, believe me, I would love for someone to show me how the Scripture is being interpreted incorrectly. Out of the myriad positions throughout Christendom there is one position that our generation and culture has decided to debate. And debate IS good... But this is a tough one... I would love to understand how every nation and generation of Christians for the last 2,000 years has been wrongly interrupting this...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15916
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by lennygoran » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:58 am

>I would love to understand how every nation and generation of Christians for the last 2,000 years has been wrongly interrupting this...<

Okay, I await further info! Regards, Len :)

keaggy220
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Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:36 am

living_stradivarius wrote:Don't have much time to write today but the key question I posed for this thread still hasn't been answered: Why shouldn't women have the right to the same institutional/hierarchical position within the Catholic church as men have? Is it because Scripture says so? Then why? Please answer that for me. It seems quite contradictory to claim that Christianity is unique because it is based in belief rather than in following rules -- this whole "women can't be high-ranking priests" is pretty much an arbitrary rule...

At least with the military, we have a reason, and that is physical strength, which has practical, real world consequences. As for other segregated institutions, yes they are a problem, and we should do what we can to create competing open institutions.

Btw, YES men not being able to be nuns is discriminatory. But I have never seen men protest over that because they ALREADY have positions of power in the Church. Why settle for something "less"? The power dynamics involved are completely different -- nuns don't have nearly the same kind of influence or power the pope or his bishops have. I don't see the practicality of placing sexually frustrated priests into positions of power so that they can molest children.

About your comment on reality, those citations you provided did nothing to rephrase your argument. Failure to articulate oneself clearly and concisely about phenomenological terms is an indication that one has not nearly explored the depths of critical thinking and analysis. Your description of reality was extremely vague and all you did was add new, undefined terms to attempt to describe it. It's as if I asked you to define a car and all you did was say a car is something that looks like a Volkswagen. Thanks :roll: Might as would have said if I believed in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus I would become more enlightened.
Even with a basis in faith one should acknowledge that within the realm of reason much of the Bible is plain BS. If you choose to accept BS, that is your choice, but give reason the exploration and dedication it deserves in the real world we live in.

I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt and say he wanted people to love each other. That doesn't negate all the arguments placed forth here. I'm not willing to give the same leeway to the people who take advantage of that very message and enforce arbitrary rules somehow derived from Scripture.

And I don't know about your neighborhoods but the most vibrant, diverse communities are those that don't enforce religious rules -- certain liberal arts college campuses are but one example. Certain corporations are as well -- Google, Microsoft, Amazon...
I have been incredibly busy - more on that in another post I plan on doing this weekend or today if I have time...

I thought I made it clear - and there's a good possibility I didn't, yes, the reason women have been excluded is because Scripture says to exclude women from this one position of leader of an adult all male or mixed congregation...

Your follow-up regarding rules vs. belief is a common confusion among non-believers and sadly believers. Let's face it, most people don't read the Bible and if they do they read it with the same intensity, or even less, than a People Magazine. Christian faith - that is, laying down the deception of humanism and accepting the reality of Christ, is the only requirement to become a Christian. Christianity is the only religion truly designed to be for the brightest or the simplest. Anyone can grasp its elegant simplicity. Now, why all the rules? Again, God, according to the Scriptures, made Adam and Eve without the capacity of the knowledge of good and evil and therefore without the capacity to perfectly judge good and evil. So God created a human owners manual called the Bible. The rules, followed perfectly, will lead one to a perfectly content life, no matter one's circumstances. However, our selfishness and frankly our ignorance of the Scripture, causes a constant daily struggle to live out the principals perfectly. If we could, we wouldn't need Christ.

Regarding your answer about men and nuns... Of course, that's just an example by me... However, I'm not comfortable with the assumption that so called positions of power are superior to any other position (certainly not the case during the French Revolution :wink: .) I personally don't think men should be nuns or gays should be boy scout leaders or alcoholics bartenders. Someone needs to give me a better answer than integration is always the best choice. I agree that it's almost always the best choice, but I haven't heard a good argument pushing my position any farther than this...

Regarding reality and reason, I guess we can really go down a rat hole here... The interpretations of reason and reality are not perfect because we are not perfect. In fact, reason and reality change from age to age and even individual to individual. I do concur that the Bible is in fact total BS to a person devoted solely to Reason - no doubt about it. I believe religion attracts people who look at reason and find it limited. This is why religion - and especially the simplicity of Christianity, can be a snare to the highly abled. Those with great talents often find it hard to accept a reality which includes a supernatural explanation.

It's not just my neighborhood - neighborhoods across America are extremely segregated. I live in one of the most diverse regions on the planet. I can walk into a restaurant for lunch and count 8 different skin tones on a normal day. Yet we are amazingly segregated in our neighborhoods. We have black neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, Spanish neighborhoods and Indian neighborhoods. Some Asians will mix in with whites, but sometimes they are by themselves too. It's really interesting... And I can tell you that we don't enforce religious rules in neighborhoods in Northern VA - accept of course the rule of total tolerance.
Last edited by keaggy220 on Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Odd situations in life

Post by keaggy220 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:39 am

lennygoran wrote:>I would love to understand how every nation and generation of Christians for the last 2,000 years has been wrongly interrupting this...<

Okay, I await further info! Regards, Len :)
Same here... :D
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

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