Who is REALLY screwed up?

[JackC]

So the nutcase in Florida and other nutcase preachers who want to get a little publicity burn a few Korans. So what. This has been almost universally condemned in the US and it could not be clearer that this is not US policy in any sense and that these people, who have no widespread support, are isolated boneheads of the type that can be found in every country and will always be around.

Yet this has now escalated to the point where world heads of state and are chiming in trying to stop this nutcase. Why? - because they apparently afraid the burning will "inflame the muslim world" - causing mass demostrations and possibly some violence.

It seems to me that that is pretty poor reflection on a whole group of people that they are thought of as having to be treated as irrational barbarian religious fanatics who are unable to control themselves and understand that there are isolated nutcases everywhere.

And when is the Muslim world going to put some pressure on its more extreme Imams, and there are a LOT of them who preach hate, and have widespread support, every day???
The answer is - Never! We just have to accept that.

If people in the West read the filth that is said about Jews and others every day in the Muslim press, they would be appalled. It grows wearisome. The problem in the world is not intolerance in the US or the West or some isolated bigot in Florida, it is in the Islamic world.

[Barry]

Obvious, but not politically correct.

As I said on another thread, I look forward to the day when an artist or writer can lampoon or say something critical about Islam, as people frequently do with Christianity, without going into hiding for years at a time.

You mentioned the Arab press. These aren't shady groups. They are official, state-sanctioned newspapers and television news programs. In those papers, cartoons depicting Jews as having large, hooked noses and doing all kinds of sinister things appear on a relatively regular basis.

[ch1525]

[Cosima___J]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20100910/cm_ ... op_1915306

As Malkin asks, when is the Muslim world NOT ready to explode in rage?

[Barry]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20100910/cm_ ... op_1915306

As Malkin asks, when is the Muslim world NOT ready to explode in rage?

The Florida minister is an idiot and he shouldn't burn the Quran. But if he does it, and violence and death follow, who is really to blame for those deaths? Is it the one idiot minister or the numerous people in the Islamic world who think they're living in the seventh century and that every slight of or joke about their religion is an excuse to go on a violent rampage?

[jbuck919]

As I said on another thread, I look forward to the day when an artist or writer can lampoon or say something critical about Islam, as people frequently do with Christianity, without going into hiding for years at a time.

In his book I Am America (And So Can You!), Stephen Colbert has this to say about Islam in his chapter on religion:

Islam is a great and true religion revealed in the Holy Koran which was dictated by the angel Gabriel to the final prophet Mohammed, Blessing and Peace Be Upon Him.

If that is not enough, Colbert repeats that exact description in a footnote. Maybe the solution to lampooning Islam with impunity is to change the rules of the game--kill them with fake positive reinforcement.

[jack stowaway]

From the Malkin article referenced by Cosima:

That same year, Nigerian Muslims stabbed, bludgeoned or burned to death 200 people in protest of the Miss World beauty pageant — which they considered an affront to Allah. Contest organizers fled out of fear of inflaming further destruction. When Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel joked that Mohammed would have approved of the pageant and that "in all honesty, he would probably have chosen a wife from among them," her newspaper rushed to print three retractions and apologies in a row. It didn't stop Muslim vigilantes from torching the newspaper's offices. A fatwa was issued on Daniel's life by a Nigerian official in the sharia-ruled state of Zamfara, who declared that "the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed. It is abiding on all Muslims wherever they are to consider the killing of the writer as a religious duty." Daniel fled to Norway.

The great concern is that there are fewer and fewer places to which victims of Islamic rage may flee. Norway, one suspects --given its domestic Islamic radicalism, may be closed for business as a refuge. Thanks to the ever-growing Islamic diaspora safe places are at a premium. And where you have a single Muslim there also, it seems, you have Dar Al-Islam -- the House of Islam.

[keaggy220]

This really sums up my issue with this whole mess. The strategy of isolating, demonizing and childishly calling a small-time preacher lots of creative derogatory names is a humorously unsophisticated way of not handling this issue.

The real issue is that there are many, many Muslims willing to kill humans because someone burns a book. This behavior should not be tolerated for one second and we should be making that crystal clear.

If the saner part of the world community had spent half as much effort clearly communicating this principal instead of tripping over each other trying to be so very PC, that is beating up on our favorite punching bag - the Christian white male, while at the same time treading ever so daintily with Muslims, we could be inching toward progress.

But right now we seem content to let the killings go on for such things as book burning, book writing (is poor Rushdie still running for his life?) cartoon depictions and whatever else we're told we need to put up with... We love to think we're enlightened but we're no different than the weaklings that groveled at the feet of the Barbary pirates decade after decade. We've learned nothing...

[Mark Harwood]

Decent American Muslims just seem to be saddened by this affair, but to hard-core adherents, criticism of Islam's founder or its main book is completely out of bounds.
In Mohammed's time, obviously before printed text, a popular way to criticise someone was to make up a catchy verse about them. One half-blind old man had a go at Allah's prophet in this way. One of his henchmen took it upon himself to kill the perpetrator. On reporting the deed to his boss, this thug received fulsome praise.
Allah's spokesman was fanatical about eliminating polytheism, by eliminating polytheists if necessary. The Satanic verses in the Koran record a strange lapse in this policy, because a town's multiple "gods" are acknowledged. The death fatwah laid on Salman Rushdie resulted from his reference to those few awkward passages.
You'd think that other bits of the Koran were more troublesome.
So, in the spirit of mischief, perhaps the Reverend Fruitcake should burn only copies of the Koran's Satanic verses. That'll confuse 'em. Would they riot in protest at the destruction of verses that are so out-of-kilter with the rest of the book that writing about them can get you killed?

[keaggy220]

During this entire tragic and classic political correctness template which has been pushed by the media and gobbled up by the masses - casting the Muslims as the victims, and a backwoods white male Christian preacher as the villain, the true victims have been almost entirely forgotten. They just don't fit the template and they suffer again. We never learn.

A More Divided 9/11 Anniversary

By SUMATHI REDDY And ANDREW GROSSMAN

Christopher Anderson/ Magnum for The Wall Street Journal
Two unidentified women grieve Friday while looking at Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan from the corner of Church St. and Vesey St.

From the beginning, there were disagreements over how to memorialize victims of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. How to compensate the families. How and where to try the responsible parties.

But always, family members of Sept. 11 victims say, the anniversary of the attacks brought a moment of unity.

Not this year.

The plan to build an Islamic community center with a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero has heightened emotions and created discord. A Florida pastor's threats to burn multiple copies of the Quran Saturday, since rescinded, has further inflamed tensions.

As the city and nation brace to remember the moment when two planes flew into the World Trade Center, one hit the Pentagon and one crashed in a Pennsylvania field, killing thousands of people, those most affected say they feel more isolated and frustrated than ever.

Memorial Events

New York
Saturday, 8:40 a.m.- 12:00 p.m.

Vice President Joe Biden will attend ceremony at Zuccotti Park, on Liberty Street between Broadway and Trinity Place.

Outside of Shanksville, Pa.
Flight 93 National Memorial
Saturday, 9:30 a.m.

First lady Michelle Obama and Laura Bush will give keynote remarks and will be joined by Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, and the families of Flight 93 victims.

Pentagon City, Va.
Saturday, 9:30 a.m.

President Barack Obama to attend service at the Pentagon.

"One of the nice things about 9/11 had always been the sense of unity that you felt with the rest of the country," said Mary-Ellen Salamone, an Essex County, N.J., mother of three who lost her husband on 9/11. "You could look back and see that out of the ashes of all the trauma and the horror there were some good things that were coming out of it. Unfortunately, this year that is not the case."

"This year, the tenor of the day is very volatile and actually almost harder to take because of that," she added.

Some said they expect to observe the anniversary in a new way, like Sally Regenhard, vice-chair of 9/11 Parents and Families of Firefighters & World Trade Center Victims. After attending the ceremony at Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan, the Yonkers, N.Y., resident, who lost her son, a firefighter, in the attacks, said she will attend the Stop Islamization of America rally in front of the site of the proposed Islamic community center and mosque known as Park51.

"We're hurt," said Ms. Regenhard. "This is the worst anniversary and the worst pain that I and my family have experienced since 9/11. We are a wounded group of people who were victimized nine years ago, and instead of having concern and consideration for this, we were vilified because we didn't support a project that was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that I feel is going to be built for the wrong reasons."

Another family member, Charles Wolf, will speak at a rally Sunday in support of Park51.

"I live in lower Manhattan, this affects me personally because I see good people fighting other good people over how to worship God," said Mr. Wolf, who lost his wife on Sept. 11. "That is the sum of it. If we reject the good guys, what are the bad guys going to do?"

But many families express mixed opinions and say they're trying to stay out of the fray, even leaving the city to mark a day they say is best spent in private. "Do I feel that in terms of the Constitution they have a right to do this?" said Diane Horning of Scotch Plains, N.J., whose son died in the attacks. "I do. But I don't think it was sensitive. Yes, they have a right to build this but I don't think it was the right move."

But instead of attending the New York memorial, Ms. Horning is going to Virginia to be with her daughter, son-in-law and their baby to remember her son. "We'll go there for some kind of connection and peace, because it's certainly not in New York," she said. "And if there are demonstrations in New York, it will be that much more agitating and that much more attention will be taken away from the issues that we should be addressing."

Colleen Kelly of Bronx, N.Y., will go to her parents' house at Long Beach Island to celebrate the memory of her brother, Bill Kelly Jr. There, the priest who baptized her brother holds a mass every year. Afterward, friends and family members share a big dinner and tell stories about Bill.

"This year, I feel like what's front and center is the divisiveness, instead of the commonality," she said. "And I don't remember the other eight years being like this. It's not just the families, it's turned into a national thing…and it really makes me sad. That is one day that I would just hope there is so much to remember about our commonality as human beings. On that day, it didn't matter what religion you were, you died."

In the years since the towers fell, the opinions of family members of the victims have been sought out on an ever-widening range of issues that go far beyond what to do with the place where their loved ones died.

That prompted Nikki Stern, who lost her husband in the attacks, to write a book examining the phenomenon, called "Because I Say So: The Dangerous Appeal of Moral Authority."

"I don't think that losing someone on 9/11 or in any other place makes you a moral paradigm," said Ms. Stern, who lives in Princeton, N.J.

And so, Ms. Stern said, she will honor her husband's memory by going on a 16-mile bike ride, because biking is something her husband loved, something they loved to do together. "What I do is I pull it down and make it personal and private," she said. "Nothing can touch that, because that's mine. I own that, and that's all I want to own. I don't want to own arguments about community centers and conspiracy theories, or the best way to protect the United States. I want to own my ability to deal with this day."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... #printMode

[Mark Harwood]

Vert sobering, keaggy, especially that last paragraph.
Let's also remember here the victims of 16,000 jihad-related terror attacks since 9/11, including about 1,000 murdered in Sunni/Shiite strife during the Ramadan that has just ended.

[jbuck919]

Unfortunately, as unfair and infuriating as the situation is, the only part of it we can really control on a day-to-day basis is our own behavior, and that must be to act grown up no matter what others do. Group hatred is not grown-up behavior. Nobody ever promised us that the moral demands made on us would be pleasantly limited so that we would be free to give in to lower instincts. In fact, Christians should be aware that Jesus' moral teaching was the reverse. I think we all feel a need sometimes to rant and vent steam, but it should stop there.

[keaggy220]

Unfortunately, as unfair and infuriating as the situation is, the only part of it we can really control on a day-to-day basis is our own behavior, and that must be to act grown up no matter what others do. Group hatred is not grown-up behavior. Nobody ever promised us that the moral demands made on us would be pleasantly limited so that we would be free to give in to lower instincts. In fact, Christians should be aware that Jesus' moral teaching was the reverse. I think we all feel a need sometimes to rant and vent steam, but it should stop there.

Yes I think there are two things at work in the average Christians heart with what has been going on. First, what does the Bible instruct us to do? I think it's safe to say that burning the Koran, or anything closely resembling this action, is not found anywhere in Chrisitan teachings. Second, I think both most Christians and non-Christians believe verbally beating up a pastor is not a solution and in fact this action is moving us backwards.

We are a generation frightened of principals and we are paying dearly for our fears.

We need to stand up and say Americans enjoy the freedom to express ourselves in ways that are honorable, but we also have the freedom to express our freedom in ways many deem dishonorable. We will not be intimadated by those who do not value liberty such as we value liberty.

But of course it would take a strong leader to say something like this...

[keaggy220]

Vert sobering, keaggy, especially that last paragraph.
Let's also remember here the victims of 16,000 jihad-related terror attacks since 9/11, including about 1,000 murdered in Sunni/Shiite strife during the Ramadan that has just ended.

I choose to remember my fellow Americans and their wishes first. I think it's obvious that they are already becoming lost in a tragic environment of political correctness.

[RebLem]

During this entire tragic and classic political correctness template which has been pushed by the media and gobbled up by the masses - casting the Muslims as the victims, and a backwoods white male Christian preacher as the villain, the true victims have been almost entirely forgotten. They just don't fit the template and they suffer again. We never learn.

He's in Gainesville, a city in north central Florida easily accessible via I-75. It has a population of 114,000 people and the metro area has a population of 258,000 people. It is the home of the University of Florida, Florida's oldest university, which has an enrollment of over 50,000 students, 4,164 faculty members, a 2,000-acre campus and more than 900 buildings (including 170 with classrooms and laboratories).

Backwoods? Hardly.

[keaggy220]

During this entire tragic and classic political correctness template which has been pushed by the media and gobbled up by the masses - casting the Muslims as the victims, and a backwoods white male Christian preacher as the villain, the true victims have been almost entirely forgotten. They just don't fit the template and they suffer again. We never learn.

He's in Gainesville, a city in north central Florida easily accessible via I-75. It has a population of 114,000 people and the metro area has a population of 258,000 people. It is the home of the University of Florida, Florida's oldest university, which has an enrollment of over 50,000 students, 4,164 faculty members, a 2,000-acre campus and more than 900 buildings (including 170 with classrooms and laboratories).

Backwoods? Hardly.

And in the midst of this metropolis you've been so gracious to describe he's only managed a 50 person church. Backwoods? Emphatically yes!

[slofstra]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

[slofstra]

During this entire tragic and classic political correctness template which has been pushed by the media and gobbled up by the masses - casting the Muslims as the victims, and a backwoods white male Christian preacher as the villain, the true victims have been almost entirely forgotten. They just don't fit the template and they suffer again. We never learn.

He's in Gainesville, a city in north central Florida easily accessible via I-75. It has a population of 114,000 people and the metro area has a population of 258,000 people. It is the home of the University of Florida, Florida's oldest university, which has an enrollment of over 50,000 students, 4,164 faculty members, a 2,000-acre campus and more than 900 buildings (including 170 with classrooms and laboratories).

Backwoods? Hardly.

And home city of Tom Petty and most of the Heartbreakers, arguably the most intelligent person/ artist ever produced by that city, or even Florida.

[slofstra]

So the nutcase in Florida and other nutcase preachers who want to get a little publicity burn a few Korans. So what. This has been almost universally condemned in the US and it could not be clearer that this is not US policy in any sense and that these people, who have no widespread support, are isolated boneheads of the type that can be found in every country and will always be around.

Yet this has now escalated to the point where world heads of state and are chiming in trying to stop this nutcase. Why? - because they apparently afraid the burning will "inflame the muslim world" - causing mass demostrations and possibly some violence.

It seems to me that that is pretty poor reflection on a whole group of people that they are thought of as having to be treated as irrational barbarian religious fanatics who are unable to control themselves and understand that there are isolated nutcases everywhere.

And when is the Muslim world going to put some pressure on its more extreme Imams, and there are a LOT of them who preach hate, and have widespread support, every day???
The answer is - Never! We just have to accept that.

If people in the West read the filth that is said about Jews and others every day in the Muslim press, they would be appalled. It grows wearisome. The problem in the world is not intolerance in the US or the West or some isolated bigot in Florida, it is in the Islamic world.

So with the world in such a potentially incendiary state isn't it better for the leaders to call for calm? I'm reminded in history that many a battle was lost because some hothead did not follow the order to not shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.

[slofstra]

Obvious, but not politically correct.

As I said on another thread, I look forward to the day when an artist or writer can lampoon or say something critical about Islam, as people frequently do with Christianity, without going into hiding for years at a time.

You mentioned the Arab press. These aren't shady groups. They are official, state-sanctioned newspapers and television news programs. In those papers, cartoons depicting Jews as having large, hooked noses and doing all kinds of sinister things appear on a relatively regular basis.

And why would this mean that America shouldn't take the high road?

[keaggy220]

During this entire tragic and classic political correctness template which has been pushed by the media and gobbled up by the masses - casting the Muslims as the victims, and a backwoods white male Christian preacher as the villain, the true victims have been almost entirely forgotten. They just don't fit the template and they suffer again. We never learn.

He's in Gainesville, a city in north central Florida easily accessible via I-75. It has a population of 114,000 people and the metro area has a population of 258,000 people. It is the home of the University of Florida, Florida's oldest university, which has an enrollment of over 50,000 students, 4,164 faculty members, a 2,000-acre campus and more than 900 buildings (including 170 with classrooms and laboratories).

Backwoods? Hardly.

And home city of Tom Petty and most of the Heartbreakers, arguably the most intelligent person/ artist ever produced by that city, or even Florida.

What does a location have to do with intelligence? Last time I saw Petty (and I do like his music) he seemed stoned.

[Barry]

Obvious, but not politically correct.

As I said on another thread, I look forward to the day when an artist or writer can lampoon or say something critical about Islam, as people frequently do with Christianity, without going into hiding for years at a time.

You mentioned the Arab press. These aren't shady groups. They are official, state-sanctioned newspapers and television news programs. In those papers, cartoons depicting Jews as having large, hooked noses and doing all kinds of sinister things appear on a relatively regular basis.

And why would this mean that America shouldn't take the high road?

Not falling for that false logic, Henry; especially not on this date. WE HAVE taken the high road since 9/11, for crying out loud.

And you're damn right a lot of us are getting sick of being told otherwise by people who wouldn't dream of calling out a good chunk of the Muslim world for NOT doing so.

[slofstra]

During this entire tragic and classic political correctness template which has been pushed by the media and gobbled up by the masses - casting the Muslims as the victims, and a backwoods white male Christian preacher as the villain, the true victims have been almost entirely forgotten. They just don't fit the template and they suffer again. We never learn.

He's in Gainesville, a city in north central Florida easily accessible via I-75. It has a population of 114,000 people and the metro area has a population of 258,000 people. It is the home of the University of Florida, Florida's oldest university, which has an enrollment of over 50,000 students, 4,164 faculty members, a 2,000-acre campus and more than 900 buildings (including 170 with classrooms and laboratories).

Backwoods? Hardly.

And home city of Tom Petty and most of the Heartbreakers, arguably the most intelligent person/ artist ever produced by that city, or even Florida.

What does a location have to do with intelligence? Last time I saw Petty (and I do like his music) he seemed stoned.

He ALWAYS seems stoned. Peter Bogdanovich just produced and released a documentary on his career. I'm not a huge fan of Petty either, but this documentary is entertaining, humorous and rocks as well.

[Mark Harwood]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

[slofstra]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge who has the higher moral ground. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all. Hey nothing like Fruitcake with Tea.

[ch1525]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

I'll get back to you when I find an answer that suits my needs in cartoon form!

[keaggy220]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge that one. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. The "world" would having trouble deciding that one to be quite honest, with Tea Party reaction to Pres. Obama and so on. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all.

The "world" needs to realize that Obama's latest approval rating is at 41%. That's not just the evil Tea Party.

Also if the "world" thinks a pastor who can only muster 50 people to come to his church each Sunday, in an area with a very large population, is representative of a nation with the most diverse population in the history of mankind than they are the fruitcakes. Please don't take that the wrong way.

[Barry]

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge who has the higher moral ground. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all. Hey nothing like Fruitcake with Tea.

Have you been paying any attention at all? Have all of those people in Europe, Canada, etc.?

Over half of the people in this country are unhappy with the job Obama is doing, Henry. Are you claiming that over half of Americans are extremist right-wingers?

Remember, Obama entered office with a huge amount of good will from the country and had approval ratings near 70 percent early on. Do you think a quarter of Americans have had a racist or extremist epiphany since early 2009?

It's hardly a secret that Europeans and Canadians are fond of a more socialized or statist form of government in much larger numbers than Americans generally are. So why should it be a surprise that they like Obama's agenda more than those in his own country do?

I and many other Americans are fond of Tony Blair and can't understand why he's thought of as the Devil Incarnate in Britain. But we don't decide how the Brits feel about their leaders and the rest of the world doesn't decide how we view our President.

[Barry]

Also if the "world" thinks a pastor who can only muster 50 people to come to his church each Sunday, in an area with a very large population, is representative of a nation with the most diverse population in the history of mankind than they are the fruitcakes.

Bravo.

[Mark Harwood]

Also if the "world" thinks a pastor who can only muster 50 people to come to his church each Sunday, in an area with a very large population, is representative of a nation with the most diverse population in the history of mankind than they are the fruitcakes.

Bravo.

Can't argue with that.

[slofstra]

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge who has the higher moral ground. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all. Hey nothing like Fruitcake with Tea.

Have you been paying any attention at all? Have all of those people in Europe, Canada, etc.?

Over half of the people in this country are unhappy with the job Obama is doing, Henry. Are you claiming that over half of Americans are extremist right-wingers?

Remember, Obama entered office with a huge amount of good will from the country and had approval ratings near 70 percent early on. Do you think a quarter of Americans have had a racist or extremist epiphany since early 2009?

It's hardly a secret that Europeans and Canadians are fond of a more socialized or statist form of government in much larger numbers than Americans generally are. So why should it be a surprise that they like Obama's agenda more than those in his own country do?

I and many other Americans are fond of Tony Blair and can't understand why he's thought of as the Devil Incarnate in Britain. But we don't decide how the Brits feel about their leaders and the rest of the world doesn't decide how we view our President.

To tell the truth I haven't been following it all that closely. Lots of politics up here to be concerned about and on the world stage also. The problem isn't people who disagree with Obama's policies; it's the virulent reaction of some on the extreme right. I have no idea how many there are but their reactions are extreme and people up here who don't follow US politics all that closely can't understand the hatred. Well ... most think it's American racism rearing its ugly head. So it's not at all an issues/ ideology based reaction. Where I see it is in the "Comments" section of the Wall Street Journal which along with the Globe here is my main news source. Other people see it on TV. I suppose Americans (some of them) were the same towards Bush, but no-one up here liked Bush anyway, so that's the reason. Bush did really try to screw us because we wouldn't go into Iraq, if you need any reminding.

[Barry]

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge who has the higher moral ground. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all. Hey nothing like Fruitcake with Tea.

Have you been paying any attention at all? Have all of those people in Europe, Canada, etc.?

Over half of the people in this country are unhappy with the job Obama is doing, Henry. Are you claiming that over half of Americans are extremist right-wingers?

Remember, Obama entered office with a huge amount of good will from the country and had approval ratings near 70 percent early on. Do you think a quarter of Americans have had a racist or extremist epiphany since early 2009?

It's hardly a secret that Europeans and Canadians are fond of a more socialized or statist form of government in much larger numbers than Americans generally are. So why should it be a surprise that they like Obama's agenda more than those in his own country do?

I and many other Americans are fond of Tony Blair and can't understand why he's thought of as the Devil Incarnate in Britain. But we don't decide how the Brits feel about their leaders and the rest of the world doesn't decide how we view our President.

To tell the truth I haven't been following it all that closely. Lots of politics up here to be concerned about and on the world stage also. The problem isn't people who disagree with Obama's policies; it's the virulent reaction of some on the extreme right. I have no idea how many there are but their reactions are extreme and people up here who don't follow US politics all that closely can't understand the hatred. Well ... most think it's American racism rearing its ugly head. So it's not at all an issues/ ideology based reaction. Where I see it is in the "Comments" section of the Wall Street Journal which along with the Globe here is my main news source. Other people see it on TV. I suppose Americans (some of them) were the same towards Bush, but no-one up here liked Bush anyway, so that's the reason. Bush did really try to screw us because we wouldn't go into Iraq, if you need any reminding.

I suggest you check out The Guardian's comments section some time. It can get pretty nasty on there. But be more fair to them than you are to us. Don't judge Brits based on those comments.

[slofstra]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge that one. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. The "world" would having trouble deciding that one to be quite honest, with Tea Party reaction to Pres. Obama and so on. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all.

The "world" needs to realize that Obama's latest approval rating is at 41%. That's not just the evil Tea Party.

Also if the "world" thinks a pastor who can only muster 50 people to come to his church each Sunday, in an area with a very large population, is representative of a nation with the most diverse population in the history of mankind than they are the fruitcakes. Please don't take that the wrong way.

The polls I've seen (just Google "do you support terry jones?") run anywhere from 17 to 30% in support of him. Not just people who support his 'right' to do this, but people who would burn the Qu'ran too. Mind you, he has supporters here in Canada too.

[Barry]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge that one. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. The "world" would having trouble deciding that one to be quite honest, with Tea Party reaction to Pres. Obama and so on. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all.

The "world" needs to realize that Obama's latest approval rating is at 41%. That's not just the evil Tea Party.

Also if the "world" thinks a pastor who can only muster 50 people to come to his church each Sunday, in an area with a very large population, is representative of a nation with the most diverse population in the history of mankind than they are the fruitcakes. Please don't take that the wrong way.

The polls I've seen (just Google "do you support terry jones?") run anywhere from 17 to 30% in support of him. Not just people who support his 'right' to do this, but people who would burn the Qu'ran too. Mind you, he has supporters here in Canada too.

If polling in recent years has taught us anything, it's that a decent percentage of people in this country will believe or support just about anything. Remember, Democrats who had an opinion split nearly evenly on whether the Bush administration was behind the 9/11 attacks or knew about them in advance but didn't try to stop them. But as I pointed out on another thread, that's not unique to us. Just look at some of the views put forth on here by some of our Brit posters (also 9/11 truthers; and according to one, it's common knowledge in Britain that the Jewish lobby controls the American media). And don't even get me started on the obscenely large percentage of Arabs and Muslims who believe the 9/11 attacks were a Zionist conspiracy and that the Jews who worked in the World Trade Centers were warned in advance to stay home that day. I think I read something like a third or a half some time ago (I doubt that's the case here; but don't doubt it's the case in the Middle East and maybe in certain parts of Europe with large Muslim immigrant populations).

[slofstra]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge that one. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. The "world" would having trouble deciding that one to be quite honest, with Tea Party reaction to Pres. Obama and so on. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all.

The "world" needs to realize that Obama's latest approval rating is at 41%. That's not just the evil Tea Party.

Also if the "world" thinks a pastor who can only muster 50 people to come to his church each Sunday, in an area with a very large population, is representative of a nation with the most diverse population in the history of mankind than they are the fruitcakes. Please don't take that the wrong way.

The polls I've seen (just Google "do you support terry jones?") run anywhere from 17 to 30% in support of him. Not just people who support his 'right' to do this, but people who would burn the Qu'ran too. Mind you, he has supporters here in Canada too.

I'm not making anything out of this. I'm just saying that the proposition that America occupies the higher moral ground, over, say, Malaysia or Turkey, is not a slam dunk.

[JackC]

But Chad, what I see on the Comments today at the WSJ is the exact reverse of that cartoon. The comments are saying you can't judge all Americans by Terry Jones and you CAN judge Islam by the terrorists. So isn't that wrong also?

Not entirely.
The world may judge Americans by their response to the Reverend Fruitcake's stunt.
And it may judge Islam by its representatives' response to Islamic atrocities.

Mark, don't take this the wrong way, but right now I would not let "the world" judge who has the higher moral ground. Just talking to ordinary people here in Canada, and relatives in Europe etc. You have to realize that Europe, Canada and much of the rest of the world like Obama, and they do not understand why the American extremist Right is picking on him right now. They think the Reverend Fruitcake represents a lot of people, not an isolated case at all. Hey nothing like Fruitcake with Tea.

If most people in Canada and Europe and "much of rest of the world" think that the fruitcke preacher "represents a lot of people" here, that just confirms that they are totally ignorant about America. Wow, what a surprise.

As to "picking on Obama", the "extremist right" - whomever you may be referring to - has ALWAYS been "picking on" him.

What is different is that Obama has lost the support of a great many people who elected him. These people are not the "extreme right" though sometimes Obama and his clan want to pretend that all who oppose him are the extreme right. His "approval rating" has fallen dramtically and is very bad, though not (yet at least) terminal. His numbers among "independants" are terrible, and it is easy to understand why. He ran as a centrist, post-partisan" unifier - remember "There is no red America, no blue america - just the United States of America"

Many of us knew that was BS, and we turned out to have been correct. He is an idealogue who tried to do everything he could to take this center-right country to the LEFT.

The most visible, though not the only, lurch to the left was Obamacare. All the polls and several election results - including govenorships in Virginia and New Jersey, as well as the astounding lost of Ted Kennedy's Senate seat in Massachusetts to a Republican whose primary issue/promise was to try to block the passage of Obamacare - were screaming that most people in the country did not want this bill. Yet, Obama and the Dems spent an entire year shoving this down the country's throat.

While he and the Dems in congress were off on their little ideological fantasy power trip, they lost the support of the country. They are going to get wiped out in the upcoming elections, and deservedly so.

BTW, the cartoon just about perfectly captures the absurd dymanic that has taken over the "discussion" about Islam.

[JackC]

I'm not making anything out of this. I'm just saying that the proposition that America occupies the higher moral ground, over, say, Malaysia or Turkey, is not a slam dunk.

Well I suppose for you a country would have to be actively practicing slavery for it to be a slam dunk that the US occupies a higher moral ground.

I also suspect that the countries that you would rank on the highest moral ground are those cute little homogeneous European countries that have no signficant impact on world affairs. You know, the ones that only survived and prospered over the last 65 years because of the world order that the US made possible and secured.

[slofstra]

I'm not making anything out of this. I'm just saying that the proposition that America occupies the higher moral ground, over, say, Malaysia or Turkey, is not a slam dunk.

Well I suppose for you a country would have to be actively practicing slavery for it to be a slam dunk that the US occupies a higher moral ground.

I also suspect that the countries that you would rank on the highest moral ground are those cute little homogeneous European countries that have no signficant impact on world affairs. You know, the ones that only survived and prospered over the last 65 years because of the world order that the US made possible and secured.

It is true that there were a few Americans fighting along side our brave Canadian troops in WWII. Thanks for the assist. You guys were late to the party though. What kept you? Good thing you had Roosevelt to kick your butts over there.

[Barry]

It is true that there were a few Americans fighting along side our brave Canadian troops in WWII. Thanks for the assist. You guys were late to the party though. What kept you? Good thing you had Roosevelt to kick your butts over there.

What kept us was a strong isolationist sentiment in the country, especially among Republicans at that time. Amazing to think that the Democrats were the more hawkish party back then; but then they don't make Democrats like Truman and FDR any more when it comes to foreign policy. It was regretful. And I hope we'll never let isolationists get too much influence in this country again. See http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... eir-hands/

Although one can also say that the rest of the Western World never seems to be happy with the U.S., whether we stay out of conflicts or join them.

[slofstra]

It is true that there were a few Americans fighting along side our brave Canadian troops in WWII. Thanks for the assist. You guys were late to the party though. What kept you? Good thing you had Roosevelt to kick your butts over there.

What kept us was a strong isolationist sentiment in the country, especially among Republicans at that time. Amazing to think that the Democrats were the more hawkish party back then; but then they don't make Democrats like Truman and FDR any more when it comes to foreign policy. It was regretful. And I hope we'll never let isolationists get too much influence in this country again. See http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... eir-hands/

Although one can also say that the rest of the Western World never seems to be happy with the U.S., whether we stay out of conflicts or join them.

Well, you did have 4 million men and women over in Europe by the end, so I guess that's not too shabby. The last sentence is true, but a) the USA has big shoulders, and b) it's not the same people complaining ... usually.

[lennygoran]

>especially among Republicans at that time.<

Makes me think of Joseph Kennedy, the father--he was a Democrat-- and Charles Lindbergh. Regards, Len

[keaggy220]

I'm not making anything out of this. I'm just saying that the proposition that America occupies the higher moral ground, over, say, Malaysia or Turkey, is not a slam dunk.

Well I suppose for you a country would have to be actively practicing slavery for it to be a slam dunk that the US occupies a higher moral ground.

I also suspect that the countries that you would rank on the highest moral ground are those cute little homogeneous European countries that have no signficant impact on world affairs. You know, the ones that only survived and prospered over the last 65 years because of the world order that the US made possible and secured.

It is true that there were a few Americans fighting along side our brave Canadian troops in WWII. Thanks for the assist. You guys were late to the party though. What kept you? Good thing you had Roosevelt to kick your butts over there.

It became apparent you and all the rest of our moral superiors were getting your butt kicked so we had to join in - we've been providing you with a teat for your comfort ever since... Your welcome.

[slofstra]

I'm not making anything out of this. I'm just saying that the proposition that America occupies the higher moral ground, over, say, Malaysia or Turkey, is not a slam dunk.

Well I suppose for you a country would have to be actively practicing slavery for it to be a slam dunk that the US occupies a higher moral ground.

I also suspect that the countries that you would rank on the highest moral ground are those cute little homogeneous European countries that have no signficant impact on world affairs. You know, the ones that only survived and prospered over the last 65 years because of the world order that the US made possible and secured.

It is true that there were a few Americans fighting along side our brave Canadian troops in WWII. Thanks for the assist. You guys were late to the party though. What kept you? Good thing you had Roosevelt to kick your butts over there.

It became apparent you and all the rest of our moral superiors were getting your butt kicked so we had to join in - we've been providing you with a teat for your comfort ever since... Your welcome.

I'd be offended if I didn't realize that you know nothing about your own country's history.

[keaggy220]

I'm not making anything out of this. I'm just saying that the proposition that America occupies the higher moral ground, over, say, Malaysia or Turkey, is not a slam dunk.

Well I suppose for you a country would have to be actively practicing slavery for it to be a slam dunk that the US occupies a higher moral ground.

I also suspect that the countries that you would rank on the highest moral ground are those cute little homogeneous European countries that have no signficant impact on world affairs. You know, the ones that only survived and prospered over the last 65 years because of the world order that the US made possible and secured.

It is true that there were a few Americans fighting along side our brave Canadian troops in WWII. Thanks for the assist. You guys were late to the party though. What kept you? Good thing you had Roosevelt to kick your butts over there.

It became apparent you and all the rest of our moral superiors were getting your butt kicked so we had to join in - we've been providing you with a teat for your comfort ever since... Your welcome.

I'd be offended if I didn't realize that you know nothing about your own country's history.

Oh yes, the Canadians were getting ready to unleash their full fury when the Americans butted in with our "assist."

[Barry]

From today's Philadelphia Daily News: