Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

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Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:31 pm

If you can't defeat 'em, kill 'em.

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Shot at Grocery Store Event
At Least 12 People Reportedly Wounded in Shooting at Grocery Store

Jan. 8, 2011

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head at point-blank range today outside a Tucson, Ariz., grocery store where she was holding a campaign event, law enforcement sources told ABC News. She was taken to University Medical Center, where she reportedly has died.

Giffords was among as many as 12 people reportedly wounded in the shooting, and according to Congressional sources, several people on the Democrat's staff were among the wounded.

A law enforcement source told ABC affiliate KGUN-TV in Tucson that the shooter was in custody.

Giffords, a Democrat, was holding a "Congress on Your Corner" event today at a Safeway supermarket in northwest Tucson.

P.S. I'm now reading conflicting reports that Ms. Giffords may still be alive at the hospital, where she's said to be in surgery. We'll have to wait and see.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:23 pm

Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords Shot By Gunman

By NPR Staff

January 8, 2011

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head by a gunman at a public event in Tucson on Saturday. There are conflicting reports about whether she was killed.

The Pima County, Ariz., sheriff's office told member station KJZZ the 40-year-old Democrat was killed. At least nine other people, including members of her staff, were injured.

Giffords, who was re-elected to a third term in November, was hosting a "Congress on Your Corner" event at a Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

The suspect fired indiscriminately from about four feet away, Michaels said. A congressional official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity that the gunman was using an automatic weapon.

The suspect ran off and was tackled by a bystander. He was taken into custody. Witnesses described him as in his late teens or early 20s.

Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson.

Giffords was first elected to represent Arizona's 8th District in 2006. The "Congress on Your Corner" events, which she holds regularly, allow constituents to present their concerns directly to her.

Giffords' Tucson office was one of three damaged last March by vandals who targeted Democrats in advance of the U.S. House vote on the controversial health care legislation. A glass panel at her office was shattered, and at the time her staff said that it appeared the window had been damaged by a pellet gun.

Her fellow Arizona congressman, Republican Jeff Flake, reached Saturday on his way to the hospital, recalled that he had last spoken with Giffords on the House floor during this week's swearing-in ceremony.

"We have a fairly small delegation and we've met often," he said of Giffords, who in November beat back a tough challenge from a Tea Party-endorsed opponent.

"She got re-elected because she's tenacious," Flake said. "There was a very strong headwind against all Democrats and people did not expect her to come back to Congress.

"But she was tireless," he said. "Others may have held back after things happen — like the damage to her office. She was fearless."

Flake said emotions have been running high in Arizona over issues, including immigration.

"That's obviously an issue that is a very passionate one for a lot of people," he said.
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Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:29 pm

January 8, 2011

Congresswoman Giffords Shot in Tucson
By J. DAVID GOODMAN
New York Times

TUCSON — Gabrielle Giffords, a congresswoman from Arizona, was shot in the head on Saturday at a public event held at a grocery store in Tucson. President Obama, in a statement, said that she had been “gravely wounded” and said that others had died.

At least 12 people had been reported injured, with some media outlets including a federal judge among the wounded. The Capitol police in Washington reported that a gunman was being held.

Ms. Giffords, 40, was taken to University Medical Center in Tucson, the trauma center for the area, about 10 miles away. Darci Slaten, a hospital spokeswoman, said earlier in the afternoon that Ms. Giffords was in surgery.

In his statement, Mr. Obama called the shooting “an unspeakable tragedy.”

He said that “a number of Americans were shot in Tuscon, Arizona, at a constituent meeting with Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. And while we are continuing to receive information, we know that some have passed away, and that Representative Giffords is gravely wounded.”

“We do not yet have all the answers,” Mr. Obama continued. “What we do know is that such a senseless and terrible act of violence has no place in a free society. I ask all Americans to join me and Michelle in keeping Representative Giffords, the victims of this tragedy, and their families in our prayers.”

CNN quoted a public information officer for the sheriff’s office as saying that the shooting had occurred around 10 a.m. local time.

Dr. Steven Rayle, a former emergency room doctor who now works in a hospice, said that he had witnessed the shootings. He said the congresswoman was standing behind a table outside the Safeway greeting passersby when the gunman approached her from behind, held a gun about a foot from her head and began firing.

. “He must have got off 20 rounds,” he said. Ms. Giffords slumped to the ground and staff members immediately rushed to her aid, Dr. Rayle said.

Dr. Rayle said he performed CPR on some of the victims. He said one of the victims was a young child and appeared to be in critical condition with a gunshot wound.

He said that one of the staffers tackled the gunman and that he and others helped detain the suspect. The doctor described the gunman as a white male in his mid-20s with short hair and “dressed in a shabby manner.”

An employee at a nearby store told CNN that he heard a steady stream of gun fire that appeared sustained and “random.” Shortly after, emergency vehicles filled the parking lot around the grocery story and cordoned off the area.

The shooting occurred at a Safeway supermarket in northwest Tucson as Ms. Giffords hosted an event, called “Congress on Your Corner, to allow members of the 8th Congressional District to meet her individually. She has held several events since first taking office in January 2007. At one such event in 2009, a protester was removed by police when his pistol fell on the supermarket floor.

Last March, her Tucson office was vandalized a few hours after the House vote overhauling the nation’s health care system, the authorities said. Earlier events in Tucson, Oro Valley, Green Valley, Sierra Vista, and Douglas had attracted between 75 and 150 people, according to a statement announcing the event. This was her first event since her re-election to a third term in November.

Ms. Giffords, 40, was interviewed on Fox news on Friday to talk about a bill to cut to congressional salaries by 5 percent.

She married Cmdr. Mark E. Kelly, 46, a NASA astronaut and Navy pilot from New Jersey, in December 2007 at a wedding attended by Robert B. Reich, the former Labor secretary.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Cosima___J » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:01 pm

Very sad and very scary!

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:05 pm

I'm not sad, I'm outraged.

A further update from the NY Times:


Ms. Giffords, 40, was described as being in very critical condition at the University Medical Center in Tucson, where she was operated on by a team of neurosurgeons. One of the surgeons said that she had been shot once in the head, “through and through,” with the bullet going through her brain.

“I can tell you at this time, I am very optimistic about her recovery,” he said in a news conference. “We cannot tell what kind of recovery but I’m as optimistic as it can get in this kind of situation.”

An official with the Pima County Sheriff’s Department said that six people had been killed and 18 wounded in the shooting, including a federal judge, John Roll, who had been involved in immigration cases and had previously received death threats. Among the six dead was a child about 9 years old, the hospital confirmed.

Ten of the wounded were taken to the hospital.

Richard Kastigar, a supervisor with the sheriff’s department, identified the gunman as a 22-year-old who was in custody. Citing unnamed sources, the Associated Press identified the suspect as Jared Laughner.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Cosima___J » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:28 pm

Sad, outraged, disgusted, upset, worried and hoping there will be no copycat killers out there.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:35 pm

Shocking news! I hope they catch the perpetrator.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-congress ... 19jmp.html

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Lance » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:40 pm

Sick, sick, sick. Incredible that this could happen.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by diegobueno » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:55 pm

New York Times article wrote:During the fall campaign, Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate, posted a controversial map on her Facebook page depicting spots where Democrats were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on Ms. Palin’s map.
You've got to be careful what you say about someone. You never know who might take you literally.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by absinthe » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:38 pm

Very sad indeed. One despairs at the human condition.

The world is getting an angrier place. Politicians are especially vulnerable (as we discovered in the UK with two recent attacks by constituents who'd booked to speak with them, probably because of a clash of views). Things can only get worse. A darkening world.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:16 pm

I'm resisting, but only just barely, the urge to speculate before we know more about the reason people were killed and almost killed.

But wait a minute, no need to speculate at all: They were killed because a gun discharged bullets at them.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by diegobueno » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:53 pm

Clearly there's a militia out there that needs to be better regulated.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by HoustonDavid » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:34 pm

I hate to turn this into a pro- or anti-gun debate. Clearly it was a man with a gun
responsible, with emphasis on responsible - in this case irresponsible. If this
was an assassination, there wouldn't have been 18 casualties and many dead. This
reeks of madness, not an angry citizen.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Proton » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:24 pm

diegobueno wrote:
New York Times article wrote:During the fall campaign, Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate, posted a controversial map on her Facebook page depicting spots where Democrats were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on Ms. Palin’s map.
You've got to be careful what you say about someone. You never know who might take you literally.


Or, in the words of Ms. Giffords, "You've got to realize there are consequences [to violent rhetoric]."



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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Cosima___J » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:42 pm

If you check out this website (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jared-lee ... d=12572164) and other news stories, the shooter was known to be a disturbed young man --- a real weirdo who hated the government and claimed that the government was "brainwashing" people. Congresswoman Giffords happened to have the bad luck of being the closest U.S. representative that he could get to. There's a video of him burning the U.S. flag. I doubt very seriously that his actions had anything to do with Sarah Palin. If he could have gotten close enough to her, he no doubt would have been happy to shoot Palin too.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:40 pm

As jbuck919 says, let's not get ahead of the investigation. I jumped to a conclusion myself when I first heard about this, but I could certainly be wrong. The sheriff says the authorities are seeking a possible accomplice, maybe more than one, so there may be much more to this than we yet know.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by living_stradivarius » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:11 am

Horrible.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:26 am

It makes a big difference whether this was a one-man aberration or a conspiracy. No need to guess, since eventually we'll know.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:45 am

A local commentator who identified himself as a political cartoonist made an early report on CNN (this was when they had just gotten false word from NPR that Giffords was dead), who unequivocally blamed the political environment in Arizona, saying that such an event was "inevitable." I think the CNN anchor was caught unawares (though he dealt with it graciously) as the situation was not quite ready for that kind of speculative commentary. But then the NY Times is quoting the local sheriff as saying the same thing in an article whose heading is "In attack's wake, political repercussions":
The shootings raised questions about potential political motives, and Sheriff Dupnik blamed the toxic political environment in Arizona. There were immediate national reverberations as Democrats denounced the fierce partisan atmosphere in Ms. Gifford’s district and top Republicans quickly condemned the violence.
Further along in the article, we find the following:
Because of the shootings, House Republicans postponed all legislation to be considered on the floor this week, including a vote to repeal the health care overhaul. The House majority leader, Representative Eric Cantor, Republican of Virginia, said lawmakers needed to “take whatever actions may be necessary in light of today’s tragedy.”
Yeah, right. I expect gun control legislation to be introduced on Monday. And if this event calls for another round on that subject, don't blame me: I didn't create the nightmare in which only luck stands between any American and the next bullet, but along with all Americans I'm in it.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:49 am

Ironically, Gabrielle Giffords herself is in favor of "gun rights." Or she was.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:50 am

John F wrote:Ironically, Gabrielle Giffords herself is in favor of "gun rights." Or she was.
So "was" James Brady.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:27 am

jbuck919 wrote:
John F wrote:Ironically, Gabrielle Giffords herself is in favor of "gun rights." Or she was.
So "was" James Brady.
That's hardly surprising since he was the chief spokesman for the Reagan administration. But perhaps Ms. Giffords's pro-gun views aren't that surprising since she's from Arizona, and most likely wouldn't have been elected otherwise. Maybe, like Brady, she'll now see the light, if she recovers as well as he did.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by lennygoran » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:46 am

>Disturbed as he is, <

Yeah as often happens with these cases suddenly alot of material begins to emerge--in addition to his internet activities there's this:

"Pima Community College said he had been suspended for conduct violations and withdrew in October after five instances of classroom or library disruptions that involved the campus police. "

Regards, Len :( :shock: :x

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:13 am

Cosima___J wrote:If you check out this website (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jared-lee ... d=12572164) and other news stories, the shooter was known to be a disturbed young man --- a real weirdo who hated the government
just like the Tea Partiers.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by JackC » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:32 pm

This man shot 20 people and by all the accounts that are coming out was deeply disturbed and/or deranged. It isn't clear that there is ANY political connection or motive yet.

But even it turns out that he was politically motivated in some loose way that shows nothing. They are nuts who can get angry about anything.

When Hasan shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood a while back, all the while yelling Alla Akbar, the whole liberal establsihment went into overdrive to make sure that the spin on the story was not that the attack was religiously motivated terrorism. He was crazy/disturbed, was the mantra, so it was a meaningless act and meant nothing.

Where is that restraint here??????? All of a sudden its the fault of Sarah Palin or the tea party. :roll:


The efforts here by some to characterize this as the consequence of recent political statements by Sarah Palin or the tea party people are just stupid and display a bigoted, narrow hateful view of a whole group of people who are doing nothing other than voicing their political views as they have every right to do.

The nasty partisan politican environment we are now in if every but as much the fault of the Dems as it is the Reps. If you want to to see hateful political rhertoric go look at the speeches of some of the Dems in Congress - say Alan Grayson.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:19 pm

It seems that the young man had issues of his own that had
nothing to do with Mrs. Palin.

I do hope the political parties will not sink to a blaming
game, giving copy cat crazies a reason to commit more murders.
Perhaps this is a good time to take a brief holiday from political
bickering.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:54 pm

I have read reports, both at the Huffington Post and Fox News, that Loughlin was somehow associated with a group known as the American Renaissance. This is a white supremacy group, which is not too keen on Jews either.

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/

Their website likes the Tea Party enough to sell banners with the "Don't Tread on Me" snake, but they disdain the Tea Party's rejection of racism. The American Renaissance is racist and proud of it.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:11 pm

I've found this attributed to Fox News:
An internal Department of Homeland Security (DHS) memo quoted by FOX News Channel revealed the gunman - named by the media as Jared Loughner, 22 - is "possibly linked" to American Renaissance.

The group subscribes to an ideology that is "anti-government, anti-immigration, antiSemitic," according to the DHS memo.

Giffords "is the first Jewish female elected to such a high position in the US government. She was also opposite this group's ideology when it came to immigration debate," the note said.
However, diegobueno's link brings me to this comment on the American Renaissance web site:
This is so hopelessly wrong that it is hard to believe it is a genuine government document. No one by the name of Loughner has ever been a subscriber to American Renaissance or has ever registered for an American Renaissance conference. We have no evidence that he has even visited the AR website.

American Renaissance condemns violence in the strongest possible terms, and nothing that has ever appeared in it pages could be interpreted as countenancing it.

AR is not anti-government [or] anti-Semitic,... as is clear from the 20 years of back issues that are posted on our website... We have always welcomed Jewish participation in our work. Many of the speakers at American Renaissance conferences have been Jewish.

Although the name Gabrielle Giffords has appeared in news articles we have excerpted on our website, AR itself has never mentioned her and has certainly never criticized her policies.

Finally, Gabrielle Giffords is not the “first Jewish female elected to such a high position in the US government.” Barbara Boxer has represented California in the Senate from 1993, and Diane Feinstein has done so since 1992. There are at least six Jewish congresswomen listed by Wikipedia as currently serving in the House.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by JackC » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:22 pm

Yes, and once you two have confirmed for youselves that it is the fault of some right wing group, you'll be able to sleep better, your worldview confirmed, but you still won't understand why this happened and why he shot 20 people and killed 9 year old girl.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by absinthe » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:31 pm

from the BBC:
The suspected gunman in custody - thought to have attended Pima College in Tucson - may have "a mental issue", the sheriff said. He is not co-operating with investigators.
No shit?
Clever sheriff, that one.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:44 pm

JackC wrote:Yes, and once you two have confirmed for youselves that it is the fault of some right wing group, you'll be able to sleep better, your worldview confirmed, but you still won't understand why this happened and why he shot 20 people and killed 9 year old girl.
What two are you talking about?
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:14 pm

Sheriff Dupnik's criticism of political 'vitriol' resonates with public

by Sandhya Somashekhar
The Washington Post
Sunday, January 9, 2011

Pima County Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik, who is overseeing the investigation of Saturday's mass shooting that critically wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D), became an overnight sensation with his remarks that the "vitriol" in today's political discourse contributed to the incident and that Arizona has become "a mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

Dupnik's name was a top search term on Twitter Saturday night, with many of the tweets thanking him for his candor, and overnight, a Facebook page titled "Clarence Dupnik is my Hero" sprung up.

In a news conference Saturday evening, Dupnik condemned the "atmosphere of hatred and bigotry" that he said has gripped the nation and suggested that the 22-year-old suspect being held in the shooting was mentally ill and therefore more susceptible to overheated messages in the media.

"There's reason to believe that this individual may have a mental issue. And I think people who are unbalanced are especially susceptible to vitriol," he said during his televised remarks. "People tend to pooh-pooh this business about all the vitriol we hear inflaming the American public by people who make a living off of doing that. That may be free speech, but it's not without consequences."

His remarks especially resonated with liberals, who even before the name of the suspect was released suggested that the shooter may have had been incited by the tea party. There is no indication that the suspect, Jared Lee Lougner, identified with the tea party or was politically conservative. During the campaign, liberal pundits and politicians asserted that the sometimes militant language some conservative politicians used could incite violence.

MSNBC talk show host Keith Olbermann, who acknowledged and apologized for his role in the acrimonious political climate, praised Dupnik's "extraordinary" comments at the close of his show on Saturday. Dupnik's remarks drew criticism from conservatives.

"We have no idea at this point the motivation of this murderer's act. Yet Dupnik took his moment in the spotlight to drive a political wedge into the event," local conservative radio host Jon Justice said in an e-mail to the Tucson Weekly. "They were reckless and dangerous statements made by someone who should have known better. He should have been using his time to help bring the community together."

Dupnik, 74, a Democrat who has served as Pima County sheriff since 1980, is known for his colorful and often bluntly partisan commentary. Last year, he refused to enforce Arizona's aggressive new law targeting illegal immigrants, calling it "stupid" and "racist." He coined the phrase "political fornickaboobery," to describe the motives he felt were behind the crackdown.

He has called the tea party "bigots," and on Saturday, he had similar words about Arizona's reputation. "The anger the hatred the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous, and unfortunately I think Arizona has become sort of the capital," he said. "We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

Yet Dupnik has also argued that the state should not be obligated to educate illegal immigrant children, and a group of fellow Democratic officials in 2009 asked him to apologize after he said 40 percent of students at a particular school district were illegally in the country. He refused.

His remarks on Saturday further ingratiated him with liberals who have often taken issue with another Arizona sheriff - Maricopa County's Joe Arpaio, a Republican and frequent speaker at tea party events who has clashed with federal authorities over his aggressive tactics in dealing with illegal immigrants.

Pima is a border county of nearly 1 million that includes Tucson, a Democratic-leaning city, and overlaps with the 8th congressional district, which Giffords represents. According to the Pima County sheriff's office web site, Dupnik is a 50-year veteran in law enforcement, having first served in the Tucson Police Department in 1958.
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Cosima___J » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:49 pm

Can't for the life of me figure out what "vitriolic political comments" has to do with gunning down a 9 year old girl.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:03 pm

Neither can I, Cosi, but it becomes more and more obvious that the man was a
paranoid madman who felt the government was "brainwashing" everyone. The girl's
shooting may have been accidental - a pass-through or near-miss bullet - but we
may never know. He may have just shot everyone in range until he ran out of
ammunition. The one person he didn't shoot - as so many of these people do - was
himself. When his gun was empty, he simply tried to run and was tackled by a
spectator to the event. Whomever that person was - they haven't identified him
so far as I know - is a real hero. How could he know the "suspect" was no longer
any danger?
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

jbuck919
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:20 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Neither can I, Cosi, but it becomes more and more obvious that the man was a
paranoid madman who felt the government was "brainwashing" everyone. The girl's
shooting may have been accidental - a pass-through or near-miss bullet - but we
may never know. He may have just shot everyone in range until he ran out of
ammunition. The one person he didn't shoot - as so many of these people do - was
himself. When his gun was empty, he simply tried to run and was tackled by a
spectator to the event. Whomever that person was - they haven't identified him
so far as I know - is a real hero. How could he know the "suspect" was no longer
any danger?
I heard (NPR) he still had bullets in his gun, and that it was two who tackled him. But then I also heard CNN "confirm" that the congresswoman was dead.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Barry
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:21 pm

diegobueno wrote:
Cosima___J wrote:If you check out this website (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jared-lee ... d=12572164) and other news stories, the shooter was known to be a disturbed young man --- a real weirdo who hated the government
just like the Tea Partiers.
You're an idiot.

The same thing happened when the abortion-doctor was shot a couple years ago. Left wingers all over the place immediately started painting everyone who has ever protested outside of a clinic as a potential murderer in spite of the fact that an abortionist hadn't been murdered for a decade.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:29 pm

Barry wrote: You're an idiot.
Barry, I don't think that Tea Partiers are "just like" this shooter, but we've gone to considerable lengths to bring the site to the point where "idiot" doesn't have to be censored. Let's not backtrack. Hmm, pretty please?

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Barry
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:44 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Barry wrote: You're an idiot.
Barry, I don't think that Tea Partiers are "just like" this shooter, but we've gone to considerable lengths to bring the site to the point where "idiot" doesn't have to be censored. Let's not backtrack. Hmm, pretty please?
His statement was rank bigotry, and I think he needed to be called on it (it's politically correct to say things like that in some circles, but I would hope this isn't one of them). Perhaps I should have just called him a bigot. I apologize to others if my choice of wording offended you.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

jbuck919
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:52 pm

Barry wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Barry wrote: You're an idiot.
Barry, I don't think that Tea Partiers are "just like" this shooter, but we've gone to considerable lengths to bring the site to the point where "idiot" doesn't have to be censored. Let's not backtrack. Hmm, pretty please?
His statement was rank bigotry, and I think he needed to be called on it. Perhaps I should have just called him a bigot. I apologize to others if my choice of wording offended you.
But part of the progress we've made is that David Ross no longer posts here (er, does he?). :wink:

How about "I think that your identification of the Tea Partiers with an unbalanced shooter is facile, unhelpful, and incorrect." After all, Mark has never said worse about my opinions regarding Sibelius. :)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Barry
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:59 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Barry wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Barry wrote: You're an idiot.
Barry, I don't think that Tea Partiers are "just like" this shooter, but we've gone to considerable lengths to bring the site to the point where "idiot" doesn't have to be censored. Let's not backtrack. Hmm, pretty please?
His statement was rank bigotry, and I think he needed to be called on it. Perhaps I should have just called him a bigot. I apologize to others if my choice of wording offended you.
But part of the progress we've made is that David Ross no longer posts here (er, does he?). :wink:

How about "I think that your identification of the Tea Partiers with an unbalanced shooter is facile, unhelpful, and incorrect." After all, Mark has never said worse about my opinions regarding Sibelius. :)
It hasn't escaped me that he's selective with his scorn.

The fact that I don't throw the charge around nearly as often as David did should tell you something about the nature of the statement when I do use it.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

HoustonDavid
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:28 pm

I had hoped we were beyond David Ross's favorite word for everyone who disagreed
with him: "bigot". I certainly agree with Barry that comparing everyone in the Tea Party
to the shooter was a terrible simplification of a legitimate and popular point of view,
but we here have much better language to berate someone than "idiot". I've always
thought you could make a person "feel" like an idiot by simply using the kind of language
we here at CMG are very capable of using.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:37 pm

I'm just not moved. I accept that I should have called him a bigot instead of an idiot, but the charge of racist and bigot is thrown around so loosely by so many on the left in this country (including on this board at times), that those of us on the other side of the aisle have a right to point it out when we see it as well.

Just because someone has overused the term in the past doesn't render it permanently unusable when circumstances warrant it. I also used it when a member spouted off about Jews controlling the media, and I don't regret that either.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

jbuck919
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:53 pm

Barry wrote:I also used it when a member spouted off about Jews controlling the media, and I don't regret that either.
I remember John Bleau, the poster who, in addition to misunderstanding the usage of the suffix "eau" in French, started posting mainly to espouse an AIDS conspiracy theory, you know, the one where there is no virus and the syndrome is a fabrication of the pharmaceutical companies that profit from selling the treatments. I believe I summoned up an epithet at the time. Yes, decidedly so--I called him a lunatic. Someone who believes antisemitic conspiracy theories is perhaps in the same general category. But people who claim that a political wing is only showing its true colors when an extreme event such as a mass murder occurs supposedly in its name are guilty of a lesser offense than indelible devotion to manifestly wrong and stupid beliefs. I do not believe for one minute that Mark actually thinks the Tea Party consists of numerous members all of whom have a hair trigger for realizing their program through extreme violence, but I do think that he was quick to voice his dismissive opinion of a political movement, which I more or less happen to share, in an unduly, perhaps offensively exaggerated fashion. As David has pointed out, we are supposedly clever enough here not to answer cheap shot with cheap shot.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:11 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Barry wrote:I also used it when a member spouted off about Jews controlling the media, and I don't regret that either.
I remember John Bleau, the poster who, in addition to misunderstanding the usage of the suffix "eau" in French, started posting mainly to espouse an AIDS conspiracy theory, you know, the one where there is no virus and the syndrome is a fabrication of the pharmaceutical companies that profit from selling the treatments. I believe I summoned up an epithet at the time. Yes, decidedly so--I called him a lunatic. Someone who believes antisemitic conspiracy theories is perhaps in the same general category. But people who claim that a political wing is only showing its true colors when an extreme event such as a mass murder occurs supposedly in its name are guilty of a lesser offense than indelible devotion to manifestly wrong and stupid beliefs. I do not believe for one minute that Mark actually thinks the Tea Party consists of numerous members all of whom have a hair trigger for realizing their program through extreme violence, but I do think that he was quick to voice his dismissive opinion of a political movement, which I more or less happen to share, in an unduly, perhaps offensively exaggerated fashion. As David has pointed out, we are supposedly clever enough here not to answer cheap shot with cheap shot.
It's a cheap shot that gets thrown around far too often (and not only regarding tea partiers, but the right more generally) both on and off of here. I'd perhaps be more receptive to your line of thinking regarding the seriousness, or lack thereof, of the statement that set this off if that weren't the case. As I said in my initial post, that type of opinion is politically correct in a number of circles that are dominated by liberals in this country. In fact, it's even been a political strategy for some in the Democratic party. It needs to be called what it is.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:26 pm

Of course, the Right shows considerably more constraint. I've never heard anyone dissing the Left by comparing them all to Leon Czolgosz. :wink:

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:28 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Of course, the Right shows considerably more constraint. I've never heard anyone dissing the Left by comparing them all to Leon Czolgosz. :wink:
Point taken. :wink:
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

JackC
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by JackC » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:30 pm

John F wrote:
JackC wrote:Yes, and once you two have confirmed for youselves that it is the fault of some right wing group, you'll be able to sleep better, your worldview confirmed, but you still won't understand why this happened and why he shot 20 people and killed 9 year old girl.
What two are you talking about?
Who moi?? Sort of silly, given that you began this thread with the statement "if you can defeat them, kill them!!!! :roll:

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Let's get this straight.

1) Cosima said the gunman was someone who hates the government.

2) The Tea Party constantly talks about the evil of government. Right here on this board we have someone who can't tell the difference between the government of the United States and the Soviet Union and is convinced that Big Government, OUR government, is going to take away all our freedoms just like that.

3) Sarah Palin drew a map with cross-hairs over Rep. Gifford's district. Another candidate talked about "second amendment solutions". A candidate in Texas, Stephen Broden, told reporters that violent overthrow of the government would be "on the table" if the GOP didn't win the house in November.

4) To the sane among us, including most real Tea Partiers, no. 2 and 3 are no big deal. It's all rhetoric and posturing (well, the Broden thing creeped me out). But some people actually take this stuff seriously. And a to a nut-case like Loughlin, these words could be taken as a call to action. I think we'll be seeing more incidents like this. Many more.

5) Sarah Palin needs to refudiate her stupid little map. NOW.

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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by John F » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:12 pm

JackC wrote:
John F wrote:
JackC wrote:Yes, and once you two have confirmed for youselves that it is the fault of some right wing group, you'll be able to sleep better, your worldview confirmed, but you still won't understand why this happened and why he shot 20 people and killed 9 year old girl.
What two are you talking about?
Who moi?? Sort of silly, given that you began this thread with the statement "if you can defeat them, kill them!!!! :roll:
Actually, that's not what I said - it was "If you can't defeat 'em, kill 'em." There's a difference between can and can't.

Later the same day I said, "Let's not get ahead of the investigation. I jumped to a conclusion myself when I first heard about this, but I could certainly be wrong."

So if you're saying that I have confirmed for myself that this is the fault of some right wing group, which apparently is what you are saying, that is the opposite of the truth. It's not silly at all to question an untruth, whether deliberate or just careless.
John Francis

Barry
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Re: Arizona Democratic Congresswoman gunned down

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:17 am

diegobueno wrote:Let's get this straight.

1) Cosima said the gunman was someone who hates the government.

2) The Tea Party constantly talks about the evil of government. Right here on this board we have someone who can't tell the difference between the government of the United States and the Soviet Union and is convinced that Big Government, OUR government, is going to take away all our freedoms just like that.

3) Sarah Palin drew a map with cross-hairs over Rep. Gifford's district. Another candidate talked about "second amendment solutions". A candidate in Texas, Stephen Broden, told reporters that violent overthrow of the government would be "on the table" if the GOP didn't win the house in November.

4) To the sane among us, including most real Tea Partiers, no. 2 and 3 are no big deal. It's all rhetoric and posturing (well, the Broden thing creeped me out). But some people actually take this stuff seriously. And a to a nut-case like Loughlin, these words could be taken as a call to action. I think we'll be seeing more incidents like this. Many more.

5) Sarah Palin needs to refudiate her stupid little map. NOW.
Millions of people went to tea party rallies. I haven't read anything to indicate this man was actively involved in the tea party movement. What I HAVE read is that he listed the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf as two of his favorite books and was kicked off of his college campus for disruptive behavior and posing a danger to himself and others. I'm sure we'll learn more in the coming days, but to jump to any conclusions regarding him being influenced by the tea party movement or Sarah Palin instead of in the nature of the Virginia Tech shooter is presumptuous, to say the least.

The logic in your statement that because this man was an anti-government fanatic and the tea party movement is opposed to big government that there is some kind of connection to be drawn is tenuous at best (the best analogy I can give is to say that the wider anti-Vietnam War movement wouldn't have deserved to be blamed for the few who blew up government building in protest and the tea party movement doesn't deserve to be tarred by the actions of this man based on what we now know). That's not to say that further evidence won't be found to indicate that he was a frequent attendee of tea party rallies or that he had a shrine to Palin in his room, but at this point, he's just as likely, if not more so to be more like the type of person who shoots up a room full of college students.

The member who can't tell the difference between our government and that of the Soviet Union is obviously off base if you're depicting his or her feelings accurately. But no more so than the member who thought the previous administration was similar to the Musillini regime or those who routinely called Bush a Nazi or Hitler. And I think it would be wonderful if Palin and various talk radio hosts would tone down their rhetoric. I'm also not a tea party supporter (they cost the GOP a couple Senate seats). But the millions of people who have gone to those rallies because they feel strongly on various issues, no matter how misguided you may think they are, are doing nothing wrong and don't deserve to be called racists, violent, or what have you.

Happy now, John (I still think one sentence is more to the point)?
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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