Yet another tone deaf GOPer

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keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:36 am

lennygoran wrote:(Take it up with the Supreme Court - good luck with that.)

Hey my nj man alioto! Still does the supreme court create amendments-I thought states voted or thru Congress? Len
He's a good man! You're right, my bad - even a tougher hurdle for rights-deniers.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:38 am

(Car accidents kill 7 times more people a year than guns in a homicide. )

But aren't they usually accidents-come on now! Len

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:41 am

lennygoran wrote:(Car accidents kill 7 times more people a year than guns in a homicide. )

But aren't they usually accidents-come on now! Len
Most car accidents are caused by poor judgement and the end result is the same as a homicide - a dead person. Is it worth having cars? I say let's keep cars and do our best to educate people to make better decisions. But that's just me...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:49 am

(Most car accidents are caused by poor judgement and the end result is the same as a homicide - a dead person.)


But I'm not talking about accidents-it's the use of the gun intentionally for violence that's my concern. Len

Teresa B
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by Teresa B » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:51 am

keaggy220 wrote:Guns are not made expressly to kill human beings. That's total rubbish... Please look at the statistics and come back to your senses.

"Approximately 6,500 homicides were committed using handguns in 1999; since there were roughly 70 million handguns, the chance of any particular gun being used in a homicide is very low."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... #Homicides - hat tip Cosima

Of course there are also many crimes deterred because a law-abiding citizen has a weapon.

In 1999 there were 41,000 vehicular deaths.
You've gotta be kidding. Gee, can you think of a reason for a handgun other than to kill (OK, we'll include "maim") a human being? Yes, most handguns are not used in a violent homicide. By the same analogy, there must be millions of fire alarms in buildings that have never been set off to warn of a fire. Does that imply these alarms were not made expressly to detect and alarm people of fires?? And again, the number of vehicular deaths has nothing to do with it.

I admired your post in which you said you were going to try to look at issues more objectively and think about other views. This is not one of your better efforts. Just as I have said in previous posts, people very rarely change their views, and the smarter they are, the more "evidence" they can come up with to maintain their pre-conceived positions. (I never exclude myself from this human trait--just notice that you also are engaging in this exact behavior.)

Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:08 am

( This is not one of your better efforts. Just as I have said in previous posts, people very rarely change their views, and the smarter they are, the more "evidence" they can come up with to maintain their pre-conceived positions.)

I told you! Now me I'm a moderate republican but I'm reallychanged! Obama is my man and I want that bonus wall st money back! Len (grin)

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:06 am

lennygoran wrote:(Most car accidents are caused by poor judgement and the end result is the same as a homicide - a dead person.)


But I'm not talking about accidents-it's the use of the gun intentionally for violence that's my concern. Len
So now you're reduced to taking away a Constitutional right because of motivations? We already know that cars are much more dangerous than guns and kill far more people. Would you say that someone getting in car while drunk would be intentionally putting others at risk? Here are some stats to percolate through your brain:

In the United States the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) estimates that 17,941 people died in 2006 in alcohol-related collisions, representing 40% of total traffic deaths in the US. NHTSA states 275,000 were injured in alcohol-related accidents in 2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driv ... ted_States

So now that we have established that another inanimate object, a car, in the hands of irresponsible people, is statistically far more dangerous than a gun - and - even further, drunk drivers, who enter a car with full knowledge that they are putting lives at risk, are killing far more people than guns we should, according to your reasoning - get rid of cars.

I suppose I should support getting rid of cars more readily than getting rid of guns since one is a privilege and one is a Constitutional right.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:22 am

Teresa B wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:Guns are not made expressly to kill human beings. That's total rubbish... Please look at the statistics and come back to your senses.

"Approximately 6,500 homicides were committed using handguns in 1999; since there were roughly 70 million handguns, the chance of any particular gun being used in a homicide is very low."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... #Homicides - hat tip Cosima

Of course there are also many crimes deterred because a law-abiding citizen has a weapon.

In 1999 there were 41,000 vehicular deaths.
You've gotta be kidding. Gee, can you think of a reason for a handgun other than to kill (OK, we'll include "maim") a human being? Yes, most handguns are not used in a violent homicide. By the same analogy, there must be millions of fire alarms in buildings that have never been set off to warn of a fire. Does that imply these alarms were not made expressly to detect and alarm people of fires?? And again, the number of vehicular deaths has nothing to do with it.

I admired your post in which you said you were going to try to look at issues more objectively and think about other views. This is not one of your better efforts. Just as I have said in previous posts, people very rarely change their views, and the smarter they are, the more "evidence" they can come up with to maintain their pre-conceived positions. (I never exclude myself from this human trait--just notice that you also are engaging in this exact behavior.)

Teresa
Vehicles have everything to do with it. Like a hammer or a knife or a baseball bat, It's an inanimate object incapable of hurting anyone. Guns don't fire themselves, vehicles don't serve alcohol to their drivers and force them in the drivers seat to plow into a child on the sidewalk.

You are the smart one in denial here... You just agreed that barely a fraction of a percentage of guns are involved in homicides, but yet you are in favor of more controls. Why? You barely acknowledge that guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens actually help deter crime. I have to spoon-feed you answers to the obvious. There are many people who use guns for nothing more than shooting sports, which is an Olympic event, hunting another very popular sport with guns, and yes, people collect guns and they are never fired. It's unbelievable to me that your bias has blinded you to the point of missing obvious reasons that many people buy guns besides the purpose of killing other people.

Yes, I've changed, and to doubt it because I don't agree with you about revoking a major part of our Constitutional Rights is petty and smacks of childishness.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:12 am

(Would you say that someone getting in car while drunk would be intentionally putting others at risk?)

Yes but my point is that even that is different then someone intentionally using a gun to rob, rape or murder someone -can't you see that's different? Len

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:17 am

(Yes, I've changed, )

You have not-you're the same shrewdie from the past-I won't say tricky dick but definitely Sneagy Keaggy! Len (grin)

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:26 am

lennygoran wrote:(Would you say that someone getting in car while drunk would be intentionally putting others at risk?)

Yes but my point is that even that is different then someone intentionally using a gun to rob, rape or murder someone -can't you see that's different? Len
So you are actually saying that because of the slight difference in someone's thoughts before involving themselves in drunk driving and killing someone as opposed to someone's thoughts before they pull a trigger to kill someone you are willing to be a Constitutional rights-denier?

Yes, I see the microscopic difference in the thought pattern, but in the end it's the dead body that counts. Would you not agree?
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:31 am

lennygoran wrote:(Yes, I've changed, )

You have not-you're the same shrewdie from the past-I won't say tricky dick but definitely Sneagy Keaggy! Len (grin)
Well you certainly vacillate almost daily on whether I've changed or not, so coming from a person so set in his ways makes me comfortable that I have indeed changed. :wink:

As you know, my change is in the obvious fact that both Republicans and Democrats are obsessed with power and my new way of looking at both parties is through the prism that this addiction, in almost all ways, supersedes the betterment of those they represent.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:38 am

Disregard-I messed up with the darn blackberry copy and pasting-if only verizon would get here! Len
Last edited by lennygoran on Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:39 am

( you are willing to be a Constitutional rights-denier?)

I'm not saying get rid of all guns-just at least a modicum of tighter controls.

(Yes, I see the microscopic difference in the thought pattern, but in the end it's the dead body that counts. Would you not agree?)

A dead body from an accident is quite different than a dead body from a guy using a gun to rob a liquor store and kills the owner-would you not agree? Len

alarickc
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by alarickc » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:27 pm

I personally believe that we should be allowed to own and maintain firearms( I do not personally). However I do agree that they should be more tightly controlled and licensed. I think it's full within the rights of a person to keep a firearm for the defense of their home and person, but that certainly doesn't preclude stricter licensing. Giving up our constitutional rights is not something to do lightly. We were originally given the right to bear arms for the protection of our property and person from each other. None of these things however preclude us from doing the responsible thing and making it so that people must have proper training in order to own a gun, and that restrictions should be placed on that. The situation that we're in were you can get a handgun or assault-riffle at a gun show without a waiting period is simply inexcusable. I personally can't say were the line needs to be drawn on gun control, but were we are now is certainly not a good place to be.
"Private human life is anything but dull. On the contrary, it is far too interesting. The troublesome thing about it is that it has no real conventions, makes no inner sense. Anything can happen. It is mysterious, unpredictable, unrehearsable. Professional life is not mysterious at all. The whole music world understands music. Any musician can give to another comprehensible rendition of practically any piece. If there is anything either of them don't understand, there are always plenty of people they can consult about it.
Private life, on the other hand, is beset by a thousand insoluble crises, from unrequited love to colds in the head. Nobody, literally nobody, knows how to avoid any of them. Religion itself can only counsel patience and long-suffering. It is like a nightmare of being forced to execute at sight a score much too difficult for one's training on an instrument nobody know's how to tune and before a public that isn't listening anyway." -Virgil Thomson

jbuck919
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:20 pm

alarickc wrote:I personally believe that we should be allowed to own and maintain firearms( I do not personally). However I do agree that they should be more tightly controlled and licensed. I think it's full within the rights of a person to keep a firearm for the defense of their home and person, but that certainly doesn't preclude stricter licensing. Giving up our constitutional rights is not something to do lightly. We were originally given the right to bear arms for the protection of our property and person from each other. None of these things however preclude us from doing the responsible thing and making it so that people must have proper training in order to own a gun, and that restrictions should be placed on that. The situation that we're in were you can get a handgun or assault-riffle at a gun show without a waiting period is simply inexcusable. I personally can't say were the line needs to be drawn on gun control, but were we are now is certainly not a good place to be.
That expresses my thoughts as well.

Good to see you posting here and on the music board. Should we call you Alarick?

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

alarickc
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by alarickc » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:38 pm

jbuck919 wrote:That expresses my thoughts as well.

Good to see you posting here and on the music board. Should we call you Alarick?
I you wan't my real name you are welcome to use Alaric. I'm glad to be back on, I took leave over the summer and came back to my account being gone. Thankfully Lance got me registered in under a day. This has got to be one of the most enjoyable forums on the internet, everyone is so friendly and civil, as the internet goes at least. :wink:

As an aside you have one of my absolute favorite signatures on here. I don't think I've heard a more dismissive sentence in my life. :lol:
"Private human life is anything but dull. On the contrary, it is far too interesting. The troublesome thing about it is that it has no real conventions, makes no inner sense. Anything can happen. It is mysterious, unpredictable, unrehearsable. Professional life is not mysterious at all. The whole music world understands music. Any musician can give to another comprehensible rendition of practically any piece. If there is anything either of them don't understand, there are always plenty of people they can consult about it.
Private life, on the other hand, is beset by a thousand insoluble crises, from unrequited love to colds in the head. Nobody, literally nobody, knows how to avoid any of them. Religion itself can only counsel patience and long-suffering. It is like a nightmare of being forced to execute at sight a score much too difficult for one's training on an instrument nobody know's how to tune and before a public that isn't listening anyway." -Virgil Thomson

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:59 pm

lennygoran wrote:( you are willing to be a Constitutional rights-denier?)

I'm not saying get rid of all guns-just at least a modicum of tighter controls.

(Yes, I see the microscopic difference in the thought pattern, but in the end it's the dead body that counts. Would you not agree?)

A dead body from an accident is quite different than a dead body from a guy using a gun to rob a liquor store and kills the owner-would you not agree? Len
So you think that someone who climbs in a car drunk and kills someone is an accident? The law disagrees with this bizarre logic. You realize that this scenario happens far more often than the scenario you presented. Do you agree?

Do you agree or disagree that it is the drunk person who has killed another person or do you think it's the cars fault?
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:49 pm

>So you think that someone who climbs in a car drunk and kills someone is an accident?<

Where'd you get that from--no that's much more than an accident--that's a crime--well I'm back online now so you better be careful! Regards, Len :)

RebLem
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by RebLem » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:53 pm

Actually, Guns Do Kill People

by Dennis Henigan | July 27th, 2011 | Brady Campaign to Prevent Handgun Violence website

All Americans join the world community in mourning the horrific loss of life from the Norway terrorist attacks. We can only imagine the void left in the lives of the victims’ families. The staggering toll of young lives taken by a gunman at the Utoya youth camp reminds us all, once again, that guns are the enablers of mass killers.

For those who are quick to argue that “guns don’t kill people, people kill people,” it is instructive that the Norway killer took many more lives with his guns than with his explosives. Violent individuals intent on inflicting multiple fatalities don’t [Well, seldom. Also seldom with cars, that is not to say never--RebLem] choose knives or baseball bats. With few exceptions, they choose guns.

There are some in the American “gun rights” community who will no doubt use this shooting to assert that Norway’s strong gun laws don’t work, or to support the National Rifle Association’s campaign to make it easier for Americans to carry loaded guns on the streets, and into restaurants, coffee houses, bars, college campuses and other public places. Does this mass shooting in Norway suggest that Western Europe’s restrictive gun regulations are futile, while America’s practically non-existent gun regulations make us safer?

Such a conclusion approaches absurdity, when we consider some well-established facts. Press reports indicate that as many as 70 young lives may have been taken in the Norwegian youth camp massacre. Whereas that number of shooting deaths in a day is treated as a historic event in Norway, it is less than the death toll from guns every day in America – which is now in excess of 80. Whereas a mass shooting in Norway is an extraordinary tragedy, described by that nation’s Prime Minister as a “national disaster,” it is a regular occurrence in America. Within 48 hours of the Norway shooting, there were at least four mass shootings in our country: six dead at a skating rink in Texas, nine wounded during a fight between teenagers at a birthday party in Central Florida, a 15-year-old killed and eight wounded at an outdoor party near Stockton, California, and seven wounded in a Casino shooting near Seattle.

As awful as the Norwegian youth camp shooting was, the average resident of that nation would have difficulty imagining life in a society with gun violence even close to what we experience in America. In 2005, for example, there were 12,352 gun homicides in the U.S. In that same year, Norway had five. The homicide rate in the U.S. is over eight times what it is in Norway because the U.S. rate of homicides with guns is 38 times higher than Norway’s.

Norway has a restrictive gun licensing system, with a requirement that a prospective gun owner provide a written statement justifying why he or she wants one and stiff restrictions on how guns are stored. The fact that one gunman, driven by violent fanaticism, was able to get a gun to commit mass murder no more justifies weakening Norway’s gun laws than it justifies weakening its law against murder itself. No law is a guarantee against the evil it was passed to prevent. We can say with certainty that Norway, with its strong gun laws, is a far safer place than the U.S., with its weak gun laws and its permissiveness toward carrying guns in public.

It is reasonably certain that the Norway youth camp shootings will lead to determined efforts to further strengthen that nation’s gun laws. In contrast, America has suffered through Columbine, Virginia Tech, Fort Hood [OK, to be fair, I think we have to discount Fort Hood. An Army base is supposed to have guns, fer Chrissakes. RebLem], Tucson and too many other similar events with little action taken to prevent more tragedies of this kind.

The youth camp shooting is neither a reason to condemn Norway’s gun laws, nor to praise our own. Instead, it confirms, once more, that the well-known bumper sticker could not be more wrong. Actually, guns do kill people.

http://blog.bradycampaign.org/?p=3448
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

jbuck919
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:06 pm

Blue ribbon credentials on the source of that one, and another opportunity to curse the name of Ronald Reagan whose failure to shift his position after he almost died in the same attack was another huge setback for sanity in this matter.

Rob, I wonder if you should have excepted Fort Hood. I can think of no setting where the custody and use of guns is more carefully controlled than a US Army post, which also since 9/11 restricts outsider access to those having a good reason for being there. It requires nothing short of treachery to perpetrate such a crime. The Fort Hood shooting is not like Columbine or the others on the long list of shame, but the reason is that, in its context, it is as anomalous and shocking as the one in Norway.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

RebLem
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by RebLem » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:38 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Blue ribbon credentials on the source of that one, and another opportunity to curse the name of Ronald Reagan whose failure to shift his position after he almost died in the same attack was another huge setback for sanity in this matter.

Rob, I wonder if you should have excepted Fort Hood. I can think of no setting where the custody and use of guns is more carefully controlled than a US Army post, which also since 9/11 restricts outsider access to those having a good reason for being there. It requires nothing short of treachery to perpetrate such a crime. The Fort Hood shooting is not like Columbine or the others on the long list of shame, but the reason is that, in its context, it is as anomalous and shocking as the one in Norway.
Major Hadad was showing signs just before his crime that he planned to do something drastic. He was giving away many of his valuable possessions to neighbors in Army housing on the base in the few days before his shooting spree, which is a major sign of impending suicide or of doing something that will get the subject killed. Part of the solution for this has to be a major public education campaign by the military on military bases and in surrounding communities to get people to recognize the danger inherent in such activity, to regard it with alarm, and to report it to the appropriate authorities.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

jbuck919
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:48 pm

RebLem wrote: Part of the solution for this has to be a major public education campaign by the military on military bases and in surrounding communities to get people to recognize the danger inherent in such activity, to regard it with alarm, and to report it to the appropriate authorities.
I suspect this has been done. The US military is notably efficient about mandatory consciousness raising--bonkers on the matter, actually.

If we view this as a case of a suicidal mental state rather than an act of treasonous fanatacism (if the two can even be disentangled), then I suppose we are back to the problem of people in a shaky mental state having access to guns. But there is no completely eliminating that. In 1998, the commander of the Swiss Guards at the Vatican and his wife were shot to death by one of the guardsmen, who then turned the gun on himself.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:23 am

lennygoran wrote:>So you think that someone who climbs in a car drunk and kills someone is an accident?<

Where'd you get that from--no that's much more than an accident--that's a crime--well I'm back online now so you better be careful! Regards, Len :)
Glad we agree and glad you're back up and running...

Since we know that drunk driving kills many more people than homicides with a gun... Do you think people who drink should have additional hoops to go through before taking advantage of the privilege of obtaining their license?
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
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Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:34 am

jbuck919 wrote:Blue ribbon credentials on the source of that one, and another opportunity to curse the name of Ronald Reagan whose failure to shift his position after he almost died in the same attack was another huge setback for sanity in this matter.

Rob, I wonder if you should have excepted Fort Hood. I can think of no setting where the custody and use of guns is more carefully controlled than a US Army post, which also since 9/11 restricts outsider access to those having a good reason for being there. It requires nothing short of treachery to perpetrate such a crime. The Fort Hood shooting is not like Columbine or the others on the long list of shame, but the reason is that, in its context, it is as anomalous and shocking as the one in Norway.
My dad was attacked by dogs while going out for a walk one day. I went out and bought pepper spray for myself in case I ran into the same situation. I would imagine if I ever got shot without being prepared I would likely go out and buy a firearm and appropriate permit. Calling Reagan's position insane is ridiculous.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:01 am

>Do you think people who drink should have additional hoops to go through before taking advantage of the privilege of obtaining their license?<

Possibly--got a practical set of hoops you could offer. When someone was applying for the license would they be asked if they prefer wine or beer--things of that nature? Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:11 am

lennygoran wrote:>Do you think people who drink should have additional hoops to go through before taking advantage of the privilege of obtaining their license?<

Possibly--got a practical set of hoops you could offer. When someone was applying for the license would they be asked if they prefer wine or beer--things of that nature? Regards, Len
I personally think it's ridiculous, but the logic (or lack thereof) is along the same lines of the reasoning people are using for the much safer Constitutional right of gun ownership.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:59 am

>I personally think it's ridiculous, but the logic (or lack thereof) is along the same lines of the reasoning people are using for the much safer Constitutional right of gun ownership.<

Well so do I! Let me take this opportunity to announce I'm not a member of the wine ABC club! :) You forget that the constitution can be amended and should be--this brings us back to the property tax exemption your church is getting--boy does the constitution need amending right there. Regards, Len :)

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by Cosima___J » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:42 pm

Do all agnostics feel that way????

There are plenty of tax breaks written into our gigantic mass/mess of tax laws. Why are you so incensed about that one in particular? I suppose maybe renters resent tax breaks on home mortgages. If you don't have young children, you may not like the school taxes. There are zillions of tax rules that benefit some groups and not others. Maybe you should just focus on and be happy to get those tax laws that benefit you and which might not benefit some other folks. (OMG, did I just say "folks". Must have heard too many Obama speeches. :D )

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:43 pm

lennygoran wrote:>I personally think it's ridiculous, but the logic (or lack thereof) is along the same lines of the reasoning people are using for the much safer Constitutional right of gun ownership.<

Well so do I! Let me take this opportunity to announce I'm not a member of the wine ABC club! :) You forget that the constitution can be amended and should be--this brings us back to the property tax exemption your church is getting--boy does the constitution need amending right there. Regards, Len :)
Yes, those founding fathers were losers! I can't believe they made it so hard to amend the Constitution. What? Did they think we would change it on every emotional whim of a generation? Oh wait...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
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Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:56 pm

Cosima___J wrote:Do all agnostics feel that way????

There are plenty of tax breaks written into our gigantic mass/mess of tax laws. Why are you so incensed about that one in particular? I suppose maybe renters resent tax breaks on home mortgages. If you don't have young children, you may not like the school taxes. There are zillions of tax rules that benefit some groups and not others. Maybe you should just focus on and be happy to get those tax laws that benefit you and which might not benefit some other folks. (OMG, did I just say "folks". Must have heard too many Obama speeches. :D )
Saying "folks" is supposed to counter his elitism, but to me it comes off as condescending. I wish he'd stop trying. Not that it's important, I just have always found it aggravating...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:31 pm

>Why are you so incensed about that one in particular? <

I think it's a big one and could really bring in a lot of money--our government needs money bad! I admit that the mortgage deduction is probably unfair and should be phased out--maybe the same for NYC's rent control laws? And those farm subsidy programs Goldwater complained about. Wonder if there's some way to figure out how much each of these subsidies is costing us? Regards, Len

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:33 pm

>Do all agnostics feel that way????<

BTW on this question I have no idea. Regards, Len

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:34 pm

>Did they think we would change it on every emotional whim of a generation? <

What about some they got wrong--women's rights like voting--slavery? Regards, Len

Cosima___J
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by Cosima___J » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:38 pm

Right keaggy. I guess Obama just wants to sound, well, folksy. But when he says it, it sounds so phoney-baloney.

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:14 pm

lennygoran wrote:>Did they think we would change it on every emotional whim of a generation? <

What about some they got wrong--women's rights like voting--slavery? Regards, Len
Yes, I'm convinced America's greatness has been about extending more rights, which I think is the purpose the Founding Fathers had for amending the Constitution - never taking rights away.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:23 pm

>never taking rights away.<

The slave owners rights were thankfully taken away or what they thought were their rights. And thank goodness we've taken some of the rights away of those darn cigarette lovers! :) How's Virginia doing on that issue anyway--we'll be back in Washington and that area next March for sure after the Philadelphia Flower Show. Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:53 pm

lennygoran wrote:>never taking rights away.<

The slave owners rights were thankfully taken away or what they thought were their rights. And thank goodness we've taken some of the rights away of those darn cigarette lovers! :) How's Virginia doing on that issue anyway--we'll be back in Washington and that area next March for sure after the Philadelphia Flower Show. Regards, Len
I guess you can look at it that way, but I think most people believe the end of slavery expanded rights and if you think about it, slave owners merely went from an ownership model to a lease model.

VA was struggling a bit under the last Democratic governor - he was even closing down our rest stations on the interstate highways because we couldn't afford them any longer. Fortunately we got a new governor and we are now running a massive budget surplus and the rest stops are all back so we are once again good hosts to those passing through...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15047
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:03 pm

>so we are once again good hosts to those passing through...<

Good news--we like Alexandria--that free shuttle bus down King St. is a good thing! Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:21 pm

lennygoran wrote:>so we are once again good hosts to those passing through...<

Good news--we like Alexandria--that free shuttle bus down King St. is a good thing! Regards, Len
I can only hope that is funded locally and not by the state. :)
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:40 pm

>I can only hope that is funded locally and not by the state.<

I think Thomas Jefferson inserted it into our Constitution--in any event as you say let's not give up any of our rights! Regards, Len :)

RebLem
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by RebLem » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:28 am

Cosima J wrote: Do all agnostics feel that way????
No. I make a distinction among different kinds of property. Property that is used for worship services or education or clerical or religous housing should be tax-exempt, IMO. However, at the present time, the law also, wrongfully in my view, gives churches exemptions from taxes even on properties and enterprises they own purely as investments. Last time I checked, which was a long time ago, I confess, but the principle is still the same, the Catholic Church owned a network affiliate TV station in NOLA, and one of the national Baptist denominations owned the Fruehauf trucking company. Why shoud the income from them go tax-free? I think they shouldn't.
Cosima J wrote:There are plenty of tax breaks written into our gigantic mass/mess of tax laws. Why are you so incensed about that one in particular? I suppose maybe renters resent tax breaks on home mortgages. If you don't have young children, you may not like the school taxes. There are zillions of tax rules that benefit some groups and not others. Maybe you should just focus on and be happy to get those tax laws that benefit you and which might not benefit some other folks. (OMG, did I just say "folks". Must have heard too many Obama speeches. :D )
The mortgage deduction is controversial, but after having lived in a condo complex where some units were owned by resident homeowners and some by investors who rented them out, I can tell you tenants don't take care of the property, as a rule, like owners do. It is an anti-blight measure which encourages home ownership and conservation of property values, which is a good thing. I don't have any children, young or otherwise, but I almost always vote for bond issues for schools. Everytime someone invents something new and useful that I like, I benefit from the fact that the inventor got an education. The inventor and his family should not have to bear the full expense of his education because we all benefit from it, and if they had to bear the burden themselves, fewer people would be educated, and the pace of invention and life-improving innovation would slow considerably. It is in my enlightened self interest to see that that does not happen. And yes, lots of exemptions are very unfair, and are designed to protect one or another special interest and ought to be abolished. Paticularly onerous are exemptions which help concentrate wealth. Some communities are so desperate for a few low paying jobs that they will give big box retailers the right to keep the sales taxes they keep in exchange for coming into the community, which helps to destroy many small, local businesses run by people who have been part of those communities for many years. These "incentives" have the effect of concentrating wealth and being among many measures which help drive many middle class people down into the permanent American underclass.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by RebLem » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:41 am

lennygoran wrote:>I can only hope that is funded locally and not by the state.<

I think Thomas Jefferson inserted it into our Constitution--in any event as you say let's not give up any of our rights! Regards, Len :)
Thomas Jefferson was our Ambassador to France at the time the Constitution was written, and he had absolutely nothing to do with the original document. He had some influence on what went on in the first few years of the Washington Administration which was filled with generalists and whom Washington liked to consult far beyond on matters far beyond the formal areas of responsibility indicated by their respective titles. If you read the correspondence between Washington and the leaders of the two opposing factions in his Cabinet, Hamilton for the Federalists and Jefferson for the anti-Federalists, you will find that Washington's method for keeping these disparate factions together was to usually agree with the Federalists, but to develop anti-Federalist arguments for doing so. Of course, that all stopped once the Washington Administration had weathered its first two major crises--the Citizen Genet Affair in foreign policy, and the Whiskey Rebellion in domestic policy. After that, Washington figured that the new government was strong enough to work in a more partisan way, and the Jeffersonians eventually left.

Jefferson probably had something to do with the Bill of Rights, and later on, after he became president, he certainly had something to do with the 12th Amendment, which changed the method for choosing the Vice President in the wake of the Aaron Burr Affair.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:42 am

>Jefferson probably had something to do with the Bill of Rights, and later on, after he became president, he certainly had something to do with the 12th Amendment, which changed the method for choosing the Vice President in the wake of the Aaron Burr Affair.<

Thanks for the info--well whoever is responsible for that free bus down Alexandria's King St I'm very grateful to them! And I hope Keaggy doesn't attempt to tamper with it! Regards, Len :)

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:54 am

lennygoran wrote:>Jefferson probably had something to do with the Bill of Rights, and later on, after he became president, he certainly had something to do with the 12th Amendment, which changed the method for choosing the Vice President in the wake of the Aaron Burr Affair.<

Thanks for the info--well whoever is responsible for that free bus down Alexandria's King St I'm very grateful to them! And I hope Keaggy doesn't attempt to tamper with it! Regards, Len :)
I have no problem with it as long as it's the good citizens of Alexandria who are using their own local tax revenue to make it "free." If they think it's worth it for them - go for it, they can use all their money to give free gas to everyone in Alexandria if they desire.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:33 am

>they can use all their money to give free gas to everyone in Alexandria if they desire.<

Now you're talking! Regards, Len :)

Talk about money where are you placing your money for Wednesday's big Republican debate?

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:58 am

lennygoran wrote:>they can use all their money to give free gas to everyone in Alexandria if they desire.<

Now you're talking! Regards, Len :)

Talk about money where are you placing your money for Wednesday's big Republican debate?
I probably won't watch the debate, but we'll see... I would love to see Romney and Perry face-off with their vision for the role of government. But instead I think we'll see Romney playing the role of ultra-faux-conservative - which is too bad if it turns out that way. I want to see a contrast of ideas and the only one guaranteed to wear his vision on his shirtsleeve is Paul.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

RebLem
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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by RebLem » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:08 pm

keaggy220 wrote:
lennygoran wrote:>they can use all their money to give free gas to everyone in Alexandria if they desire.<

Now you're talking! Regards, Len :)

Talk about money where are you placing your money for Wednesday's big Republican debate?
I probably won't watch the debate, but we'll see... I would love to see Romney and Perry face-off with their vision for the role of government. But instead I think we'll see Romney playing the role of ultra-faux-conservative - which is too bad if it turns out that way. I want to see a contrast of ideas and the only one guaranteed to wear his vision on his shirtsleeve is Paul.
Perry has chickened out. His excuse is that he is the indispensible man needed to fight some serious wildfires in Texas, but as the son of a firefighter, I think that is sheer puffery. In such situations, governors just get in the way.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:05 pm

RebLem wrote: Perry has chickened out. His excuse is that he is the indispensible man needed to fight some serious wildfires in Texas, but as the son of a firefighter, I think that is sheer puffery.
In the northeast we call it baloney. But I don't think it's chickening out. I think he wants to let the others make one another look bad, which is probably exactly what they will do.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Yet another tone deaf GOPer

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:19 pm

RebLem wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
lennygoran wrote:>they can use all their money to give free gas to everyone in Alexandria if they desire.<

Now you're talking! Regards, Len :)

Talk about money where are you placing your money for Wednesday's big Republican debate?
I probably won't watch the debate, but we'll see... I would love to see Romney and Perry face-off with their vision for the role of government. But instead I think we'll see Romney playing the role of ultra-faux-conservative - which is too bad if it turns out that way. I want to see a contrast of ideas and the only one guaranteed to wear his vision on his shirtsleeve is Paul.
Perry has chickened out. His excuse is that he is the indispensible man needed to fight some serious wildfires in Texas, but as the son of a firefighter, I think that is sheer puffery. In such situations, governors just get in the way.
Probably a no win situation for Perry. In the end a forgettable distraction a year from now.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

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