Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

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keaggy220
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Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:00 am

Of course, I've run into those who have said I haven't changed each and every time I don't agree with them - I guess it should have been predictable. This has had the benefit of learning a little more about each person's personality...

I've changed in this way - I see very little difference in our "two" Parties. I see an overriding addiction to power which consumes our system and supersedes supposed Party doctrine. Well, I've learned that both Parties play from the same playbook - and that is addiction - addiction to power.

I saw Bush and Republicans do it over and over and now I'm seeing Obama do it over and over...

I offer no solutions. I'm currently in the cynical stage of discovery, but I hope to move on to something more constructive one day. :wink:

Environmentalists stung by Obama

Obama announced Friday that his administration was backing off the Environmental Protection Agency’s proposed regulations for stricter ozone pollution standards.

Associated Press

By Leslie Kaufman / New York Times News Service

Published: September 04. 2011 4:00AM PST
For environmental groups, it was the final hard slap that brought a long-troubled relationship to the brink.

In late August, the State Department gave a crucial go-ahead on a controversial pipeline to bring tar sands oil from Canada to the Gulf Coast. Then on Friday, leading into the holiday weekend, the Obama administration announced without warning that it was walking away from stricter ozone pollution standards that it had been promising for three years and instead sticking with Bush-era standards.

John Walke, clean air director of the Natural Resources Defense Council, an advocacy group based in New York, likened the ozone decision to a “bomb being dropped.”

Walke and representatives of other environmental groups saw the president’s actions as brazen political sellouts to business interests and the Republican Party, which regards environmental regulations as job killers and a brick wall to economic recovery.

The question for environmentalists became: What to do next?

“There is shock and chaos here,” Walke said, “so I do not know. I can’t answer that question.” But he added that his group would resume a smog lawsuit against the government that it had dropped because it had been lulled into believing that this administration would enact tougher regulations without being forced to do so by the courts.

Political analysts watching the Obama administration’s pullback from the environmental agenda this past month say that in the current climate there is little chance that environmentalists or their allies will ever side with the Republicans. After all, the Republican-led House of Representatives has been aggressively moving to curtail protections for endangered species and regulations for clean air and water, and most of the Republican presidential candidates have been intensely critical of any government effort to address climate change.

Still, they say, the president could face political repercussions in subtler but nevertheless corrosive ways: from losing volunteer enthusiasm to tying up his allies in fights with him instead of with his enemies.

“Energy from part of the base will now be directed at communicating with the White House and not with the public about the administration’s record,” said Daniel Weiss, director of climate strategy at the Center for American Progress, a liberal research group with close ties to the White House.

And Justin Ruben, executive director of MoveOn.org, a 5-million-member online progressive political organization that played a significant role in President Barack Obama’s election in 2008, said he was sure that his members would be deflated.

“How are our members in Ohio and Florida who pounded the pavement in 2008 going to make the case for why this election matters?” Ruben said. “Stuff like this is devastating to the hope and passion that fuels the volunteers that made the president’s 2008 campaign so unique and successful.”

Anthony Leiserowitz, director of the Yale Project on Climate Change Communication, who does extensive work on public perception and the environment, said the real threat to the president’s reputation stemming from the ozone decision went far beyond environmentalists.

“It could play into an emerging narrative in his own party that he is caving too quickly to Republican pressure,” Leiserowitz said. “It is a dangerous narrative in your own base because it cuts down on enthusiasm and it is a narrative that his opponents will pick up on.”


http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/201 ... 109040397/
Last edited by keaggy220 on Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:04 am

>“There is shock and chaos here,” Walke said, <

Hey it could have been worse--it could have been shock and awe! Regards, Len [fleeing] :)

keaggy220
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:27 pm

lennygoran wrote:>“There is shock and chaos here,” Walke said, <

Hey it could have been worse--it could have been shock and awe! Regards, Len [fleeing] :)
Hey, I applaud this move from Obama. I guess that makes me a fan of both shock and awe and shock and chaos! Double win!
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15047
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Location: new york city

Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:39 pm

>Hey, I applaud this move from Obama. I guess that makes me a fan of both shock and awe and shock and chaos! Double win!<

Hey maybe you'll shock us all and show a real change--not this false description of yourself for which you got some undeserved compliments --yeah I'm still jealous! Regards, Len :)

jbuck919
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:40 pm

There are some people who will boycott an election rather than vote for the guy who in their mind betrayed his base (just as there were some who did not vote in 2008 because they thought Obama stole the candidacy from Hillary Clinton). But more important, there are people who would have worked hard and effectively for Obama's re-election as they worked for him in 2008, who won't put themselves through something so grueling for this kind of end result. Also, though no one has talked about a third party candidate from the left, these are exactly the conditions that produce that phenomenon, which could split the party disastrously.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

lennygoran
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:45 pm

>which could split the party disastrously<

Still you'll get votes from moderate republicans like me! Regards, Len :)

jbuck919
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:24 pm

lennygoran wrote:>which could split the party disastrously<

Still you'll get votes from moderate republicans like me! Regards, Len :)
It's been remarked that Obama resembles a moderate Republican from a generation ago (not even a liberal one like Lowell Weicker); he is perhaps to the right of Richard Nixon. Even the Affordable Care Act contains many provisions that were originally conservative Republican ideas by the standards of an earlier time (which is proving to be a nuisance to Mitt Romney).

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

lennygoran
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:17 pm

>he is perhaps to the right of Richard Nixon<

Aren't you going into panic mode--come on, he can't be that far right :) --do you think Nixon would have gone for Obamacare? Well he has 2 adorable daughters -I think his 2 are more adorable than Nixon's--sorry Julie and Tricia. Do you think Obama would ever try a cover up like Watergate. And I don't believe Obama is an antisemite like Nixon--thank goodness--then again he took his time departing from Rev Wright! Nixon made a pretty bad public appearance and Obama is usually pretty cool! For his day Nixon probably knew more about foreign policy than Obama. Regards, Len [just rambling along as he listens to Elgar on the pc] :)

keaggy220
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:20 pm

jbuck919 wrote:There are some people who will boycott an election rather than vote for the guy who in their mind betrayed his base (just as there were some who did not vote in 2008 because they thought Obama stole the candidacy from Hillary Clinton). But more important, there are people who would have worked hard and effectively for Obama's re-election as they worked for him in 2008, who won't put themselves through something so grueling for this kind of end result. Also, though no one has talked about a third party candidate from the left, these are exactly the conditions that produce that phenomenon, which could split the party disastrously.
Actually I'm beginning to think a split in both Parties is inevitable so it won't be that disastrous for either side. Conservatives are a little ahead of liberals with the formation of the Tea Party, but I suspect liberals will catch up soon.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:35 pm

lennygoran wrote:>he is perhaps to the right of Richard Nixon<

Aren't you going into panic mode--come on, he can't be that far right :) --do you think Nixon would have gone for Obamacare? Well he has 2 adorable daughters -I think his 2 are more adorable than Nixon's--sorry Julie and Tricia. Do you think Obama would ever try a cover up like Watergate. And I don't believe Obama is an antisemite like Nixon--thank goodness--then again he took his time departing from Rev Wright! Nixon made a pretty bad public appearance and Obama is usually pretty cool! For his day Nixon probably knew more about foreign policy than Obama. Regards, Len [just rambling along as he listens to Elgar on the pc] :)
Actually there are many Republicans who would love to pass a government health care concoction of their own - remember Republicans beat Obama to the punch with the Romney plan. And you're precious for thinking an elite politician would not be involved in a major coverup in order to protect his or her power. I won't judge Obama for being an anti-Semite or not, the jury is still out, but I'm thinking many Jews are leery...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26867
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:40 pm

keaggy220 wrote:Actually I'm beginning to think a split in both Parties is inevitable so it won't be that disastrous for either side. Conservatives are a little ahead of liberals with the formation of the Tea Party, but I suspect liberals will catch up soon.
The Republican far right/liberatrian faction/Tea Party has no reason to split because it is, unfortunately, carrying the rest of the party (meaning all the candidate slates and the party structure, if not the voters) along with it. US politics is not entirely symmetrical. There is no chance of even the ordinary liberalism characteristic of, say, European democracies ever successfully converting the entire Democratic Party.

Another way of looking at it: There are still a lot of Democrats who want to win by avoiding turning off large numbers of voters with a non-centrist agenda of the left. There are a lot of Republicans who are convinced that their right wing holds the key to election success.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

keaggy220
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:16 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:Actually I'm beginning to think a split in both Parties is inevitable so it won't be that disastrous for either side. Conservatives are a little ahead of liberals with the formation of the Tea Party, but I suspect liberals will catch up soon.
The Republican far right/liberatrian faction/Tea Party has no reason to split because it is, unfortunately, carrying the rest of the party (meaning all the candidate slates and the party structure, if not the voters) along with it. US politics is not entirely symmetrical. There is no chance of even the ordinary liberalism characteristic of, say, European democracies ever successfully converting the entire Democratic Party.

Another way of looking at it: There are still a lot of Democrats who want to win by avoiding turning off large numbers of voters with a non-centrist agenda of the left. There are a lot of Republicans who are convinced that their right wing holds the key to election success.
US Politics is not entirely symmetrical and it's extremely fluid. Alan Greenspan famously wrote about the Republicans, "They swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose [the 2006 election]." The Tea Party was formed based on this reasoning and quickly gained in popularity because of the perceived jolt to the left with Obamacare. Americans do tend to be more conservative so the formation of the Tea Party makes sense. While you are correct that this movement currently holds sway in the Republican Party it will be interesting to see what happens if Republicans once again obtain Executive and Legislative power in Washington. I personally feel like there will be a growing chasm between Romney-type Republicans and Tea Party-type which could eventually lead to a split.

I believe there are many liberals who would echo Greenspan's words above for the Democratic Party and are incensed enough to start a movement - not with immediate goal of winning majorities, but in changing political attitudes and claiming territory as opportunity presents itself.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

alarickc
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:53 am

Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by alarickc » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:09 pm

jbuck919 wrote:The Republican far right/liberatrian faction/Tea Party has no reason to split because it is, unfortunately, carrying the rest of the party (meaning all the candidate slates and the party structure, if not the voters) along with it.

I would also point out that I think there are a growing number of people like me(I identify myself as libertarian with left leanings) who are increasingly horrified at the Tea Party. At the very beginning of there inception they were libertarian. Now they've become theocratic nut jobs who frighten me, a conservative Christian, in their utter disregard for the separation of church and state. They've also abandoned any pretense at remotely caring for anyone in the under $250K bracket.

I'll be honest, I rather dislike the democrats as a whole( I would never vote down party lines, you look at individual candidates. If there's a democrat I agree with I would vote for them.) But, the way the republicans are heading is freaking me out. I think the main issue is that U.S. politics have been subject to ever greater radicalization on both sides for decades. What I hope for is that a credible moderate third party arises out of this as both parts show themselves to be increasingly ineffective at governance. It's happened before, I give you the rise of the republican party in the mid 19th century. Everyone seems to forget that they started out as the liberals....
"Private human life is anything but dull. On the contrary, it is far too interesting. The troublesome thing about it is that it has no real conventions, makes no inner sense. Anything can happen. It is mysterious, unpredictable, unrehearsable. Professional life is not mysterious at all. The whole music world understands music. Any musician can give to another comprehensible rendition of practically any piece. If there is anything either of them don't understand, there are always plenty of people they can consult about it.
Private life, on the other hand, is beset by a thousand insoluble crises, from unrequited love to colds in the head. Nobody, literally nobody, knows how to avoid any of them. Religion itself can only counsel patience and long-suffering. It is like a nightmare of being forced to execute at sight a score much too difficult for one's training on an instrument nobody know's how to tune and before a public that isn't listening anyway." -Virgil Thomson

jbuck919
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:21 pm

alarickc wrote:I'll be honest, I rather dislike the democrats as a whole( I would never vote down party lines, you look at individual candidates. If there's a democrat I agree with I would vote for them.) But, the way the republicans are heading is freaking me out. I think the main issue is that U.S. politics have been subject to ever greater radicalization on both sides for decades. What I hope for is that a credible moderate third party arises out of this as both parts show themselves to be increasingly ineffective at governance. It's happened before, I give you the rise of the republican party in the mid 19th century. Everyone seems to forget that they started out as the liberals....
I think that this is a misunderstanding of the Democratic party, which is already a very moderate party with a worried but not very radical left. There is nothing on the left in the US that corresponds to the serious forces on the right. The most liberal Democrats think of nothing more radical than universal health care, keeping the environment a priority, reasonable gun control, abolishing the death penalty, and perhaps a few other stable accomplishments long taken for granted by every other advanced nation. If a movement caught fire in the Democratic Party to tax the rich so severely that no one controlled more than a few million dollars and to pass a constitutional amendment guaranteeing a minimum income, then I would say that we had something on the left to match what the Republicans have given us on the right. (That's not to be interpreted as my advocating any such radical leftness.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

alarickc
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by alarickc » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:34 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I think that this is a misunderstanding of the Democratic party, which is already a very moderate party with a worried but not very radical left. There is nothing on the left in the US to balance the serious forces on the right. The most liberal Democrats think of nothing more radical than universal health care, reasonable gun control, and abolishing the death penalty--accomplishments long taken for granted by every other advanced nation. If a movement caught fire in the Democratic Party to tax the rich so that no one controlled more than a few million dollars and to pass a constitutional amendment guaranteeing a minimum income, then I would say that we had something on the left to match what the Republicans have given us on the right. (That's not to be interpreted as my advocating any such radical leftness.)
True, the radicals on the left are not nearly as radical as those on the right. I would say though that the democrats need to get their heads out of the sand in regard to SS and Medicare. They seriously need to be reformed back to where FDR intended them to be, helping only those who need it. If I make $100K a year I shouldn't be receiving anything from them. Also we need to stop penalizing people for getting of Welfare, is graduated benefits that hard?!

In the end the big thing we need to address as a nation is making so that socialism isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean communism and it doesn't have to mean European or Scandinavian style socialism. Scandinavian socialism only works because everyone there is behind it. It suits them culturally. That form of socialism wouldn't work well here. However, I think we can get behind the idea that no one should starve or die of preventable disease, and that everyone should be able to get a decent education. That's socialism, just one of the many forms of it, and we need to recognize that socialism isn't evil. I'm not so sure that the democrats are doing that great a job of showing that. Until they redirect their efforts more I can't say that I can get behind the party as a whole.

The republicans? I could get behind them if they would just spin off the rapid Tea Party nuts who want to turn this into the Evangelical States of America.
"Private human life is anything but dull. On the contrary, it is far too interesting. The troublesome thing about it is that it has no real conventions, makes no inner sense. Anything can happen. It is mysterious, unpredictable, unrehearsable. Professional life is not mysterious at all. The whole music world understands music. Any musician can give to another comprehensible rendition of practically any piece. If there is anything either of them don't understand, there are always plenty of people they can consult about it.
Private life, on the other hand, is beset by a thousand insoluble crises, from unrequited love to colds in the head. Nobody, literally nobody, knows how to avoid any of them. Religion itself can only counsel patience and long-suffering. It is like a nightmare of being forced to execute at sight a score much too difficult for one's training on an instrument nobody know's how to tune and before a public that isn't listening anyway." -Virgil Thomson

jbuck919
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:51 pm

alarickc wrote:I would say though that the democrats need to get their heads out of the sand in regard to SS and Medicare. They seriously need to be reformed back to where FDR intended them to be, helping only those who need it.
Social Security and Medicare are frequently mentioned in the same breath, but they are are greatly different in terms of both cost concerns and need for reform. Democrats know that Medicare needs serious fixing; in fact the Affordable Health Care Act will fix a few things if the Republicans don't take power and repeal it. That party has no motivation for reforming Medicare because it would work against their aim to abolish it.

What may be true is that a responsible, de-radicalized Republican Party can push a conservative agenda (if one that I would probably disagree with much of the time) that is capable of compromise with and maybe even occasionally of convincing left-liberalism. That is what happened in Massachusetts to get them their excellent health care program which the party will now not touch with a ten-foot pole.

I do not find your reference to FDR apropos. Medicare post-dates him by two decades, and there is no way any useful program such as Social Security can meet the needs of a greatly changed society by meaning the same thing it did when my 91-year-old mother was a girl and one of the original card recipients.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

alarickc
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:53 am

Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by alarickc » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:04 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Social Security and Medicare are frequently mentioned in the same breath, but they are are greatly different in terms of both cost concerns and need for reform. Democrats know that Medicare needs serious fixing; in fact the Affordable Health Care Act will fix a few things if the Republicans don't take power and repeal it. That party has no motivation for reforming Medicare because it would work against their aim to abolish it.

What may be true is that a responsible, de-radicalized Republican Party can push a conservative agenda (if one that I would probably disagree with much of the time) that is capable of compromise with and maybe even occasionally of convincing left-liberalism. That is what happened in Massachusetts to get them their excellent health care program which the party will now not touch with a ten-foot pole.

I do not find your reference to FDR apropos. Medicare post-dates him by two decades, and there is no way any useful program such as Social Security can meet the needs of a greatly changed society by meaning the same thing it did when my 91-year-old mother was a girl and one of the original card recipients.
I will agree that using FDR and Medicare in the same example wasn't applicable. Though I would argue it is on SS. Putting the program exactly back to what it was in the 40's would be idiotic, but getting it inline with the spirit of his intentions would not be. People who are making $100k a year should not be receiving SS, at all. It's a social safety net, and that's all it should be. If we want Scandinavian style public pensions then we need Scandinavian level taxes, anything else is unsustainable.

My one question on the Affordable Health Care Act would be if it covers preventative medicine more thoroughly. To be honest I've always thought that that was the main area in need of reform for medicare.
"Private human life is anything but dull. On the contrary, it is far too interesting. The troublesome thing about it is that it has no real conventions, makes no inner sense. Anything can happen. It is mysterious, unpredictable, unrehearsable. Professional life is not mysterious at all. The whole music world understands music. Any musician can give to another comprehensible rendition of practically any piece. If there is anything either of them don't understand, there are always plenty of people they can consult about it.
Private life, on the other hand, is beset by a thousand insoluble crises, from unrequited love to colds in the head. Nobody, literally nobody, knows how to avoid any of them. Religion itself can only counsel patience and long-suffering. It is like a nightmare of being forced to execute at sight a score much too difficult for one's training on an instrument nobody know's how to tune and before a public that isn't listening anyway." -Virgil Thomson

lennygoran
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Re: Obama displays his Bush credentials (yes, again)

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:51 am

>The republicans? I could get behind them if they would just spin off the rapid Tea Party nuts who want to turn this into the Evangelical States of America.<

Exactly my feeling! I can't tell you how low I felt when McCain picked Palin! :( Regards, Len

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