American Massacres

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RebLem
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American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:59 am

Shooting victims loved history, fitness, baking

By SANDRA CHEREB, Associated Press – Thrusday, 8 SEP 2011

CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) —
Before the breakfast-time massacre killed three National Guard members and sent tremors of fear through Nevada's state capital, Sgt. 1st Class Miranda McElhiney drew a happy face on a poster board outside her office door and wrote her last message to the world: "staff meeting. Will return by 11:00."

She never returned. What should have been a routine gathering over pancakes and eggs at an IHOP Tuesday morning ended in panic, terror and death when a gunman burst into the Carson City restaurant and released a blaze of bullets that struck every uniformed Guard member in the dining room. A patron was also killed before the attacker fatally shot himself in the head.

Among the four people killed by the gunman in the still-unexplained shooting was an Iraq War veteran who loved military history, a Navy crewman who had served in Afghanistan and a devoted grandmother who crocheted blankets for every pregnant woman in her life.

"This is unquestionably the most devastating attack in Carson City's history," Sheriff Kenny Furlong said on Wednesday. "Yesterday our town was shocked to the core."

Exactly what set the gunman, 32-year-old Eduardo Sencion, off — and whether the grocery store employee had some kind of grudge against the military — remained unclear. Family members told police that Sencion was mentally troubled, but he did not have a criminal history.

Along with 31-year-old McElhiney, the other victims killed in the shooting were: 38-year-old Sgt. 1st Class Christian Riege of Carson City; 35-year-old Major Heath Kelly of Reno; and 67-year-old Florence Donovan-Gunderson of South Lake Tahoe. Donovan-Gunderson was a civilian who was sitting near the Guard members when she was shot. Her husband, Wally Gunderson, was also shot and remained in the hospital late Wednesday, her daughter said.

For the victims' families, the uncertainty surrounding the mass killing amplified the pain of their loss.

"That's the worst part, not understanding, and that it was something beyond her control," said Cindy Dopf, the daughter of Donovan-Gunderson. "Just the wrong place at the wrong time."

Kelly's stepmother, Noretta Kelly, said she felt like his death was "unreal," given that he had survived a tour in Iraq, a childhood in the New Orleans area and had moved to a safer place.

"It's just kind of like — it wasn't right," she said.

Sencion's family members declined to speak with reporters. The doors were locked Wednesday at the family's Mi Pueblo market in South Lake Tahoe where he worked. Messages of condolences were left on a note taped on the front door: "In our prayers. Always keep love in your heart. Prayers with the families. In my thoughts."

Off to the right was a newsstand displaying the front page of the local newspaper with the banner headline "Tremendous Tragedy."

"He was a happy guy. He was always smiling," said Art Panchal, who runs a motel near the Sencion family market and often shopped there. "He would help people out."

Panchal said he was "totally surprised" by the news of the shooting.

"I don't know why he freaked out," Panchal said.

Sencion, who did not have a military record, had at least one previous encounter with the law. He was taken into protective health custody by South Lake Tahoe police in April 2000. He fought with officers during the incident but was not charged.

No court order was involved, said Lt. David Stevenson. He declined to release any other details because the Carson City shooting investigation remains active.

Witness accounts and 911 calls made from in and around the IHOP paint a frantic scene from the moment Sencion stepped out of his blue minivan with a "Support Our Troops" sticker on it and began firing into the restaurant parking lot just before 9 a.m. He continued his attack in the IHOP, where he aimed at each of the five Guards members gathered for their staff meeting at a table in the back of the restaurant.

"There's a shooting in the IHOP! Get there right now!" Ralph Swagler, owner of Local's BBQ next door, told 911 dispatchers as shots rang out in the background. "Now he's coming back out. He's shooting people in the parking lot! He's shooting at us now!"

Kathy Chaney, of Dayton, Nev., was just feet away from the National Guard members when the shooting began.

"I heard screaming. I heard glass shattering. I heard a woman moaning," she recalled. "...When I looked up I just saw debris flying, it was almost like in slow motion — like confetti."

Chaney said that as she huddled beneath the table, three men who work for a cable company took charge and started yelling for those inside to leave the restaurant through an emergency exit.

Sencion then returned to the parking lot, when he fired at several other businesses before shooting himself in the head.

In all, seven people were wounded in the attack. Their names were not released, but authorities said three of them were released from the Carson-Tahoe Hospital on Wednesday.

Maj. April Conway of the Nevada National Guard said one of the three released was a Guard member. That leaves one Guard member still hospitalized, along with three civilians.

The four victims killed in the attack were all described as men and women who actively served their communities. There are no known connections between the victims and Sencion.

Kelly was a decorated officer and avid student of military history who was known for his dry sense of humor. He was married with two kids.

Kelly's stepmother said he always wanted to be a soldier.

"That was his goal — he wanted to defend the United States," said Noretta Kelly of Terrytown, La.

Riege, an armor crewman, was known as a fitness buff. He served in Afghanistan from 2009 to 2010.

Donovan-Gunderson was not in the military, but her husband was a retired U.S. Marine Corps member. They were at the IHOP because Donovan-Gunderson had a dentist appointment in Carson City Tuesday.

Donovan-Gunderson worked in the credit department of Harrah's Lake Tahoe casino for 10 years before she retired in 1999, casino spokesman John Packer said. Wally Gunderson was a security guard at the casino until 1998, Packer said.

Donovan-Gunderson's daughters recalled their mother as a giving person who made blankets for the elderly and chatted up everyone she met, especially pregnant women.

"The next thing you knew she would show up with a blue or pink blanket," Dopf said. "If she didn't know what they were having, she would make a green or yellow one."

It became such a signature trait that her grandchildren asked for the blankets she had made for them after learning of her death Wednesday.

"The first thing they said was, 'we will never go to Legoland with her again,'" Dopf said. "Everything she did was for the grandkids."

McElhiney, of Reno, was the youngest of those killed. She was an administrative sergeant who had been in the Guard for 13 years. She was remembered for baking birthday, wedding and graduation cakes for anyone who asked and mentoring young women entering the male-centric Guard.

McElhiney was "a fireball. She told you how it was. She didn't hold anything back," said Kaylee Rutledge, 18, a recent high school graduate scheduled to start Guard training next week.

Rudledge called and messaged McElhiney on Facebook after the shooting to make sure her friend was OK. When she didn't hear anything back, she knew something was wrong.

Rudledge said a Guard commander told her McElhiney was shot in the stomach and survived an initial surgery Tuesday morning. She appeared coherent and was talking to those around her. But after a second surgery, McElhiney faltered.

"I know she is proud of the way she passed because she was in uniform and everyone will know that she served her country well," Rutledge said.

Associated Press writers Michelle Rindels, Oskar Garcia and Cristina Silva in Las Vegas and Scott Sonner in Carson City contributed to this report

.http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 10182def91
Last edited by RebLem on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:04 am

8 killed in California salon shooting

Police arrest suspect in traffic stop half-mile from scene; domestic dispute suspected

NBC, msnbc.com and news services | Thursday, October 13, 2011

SEAL BEACH, Calif.—
A gunman opened fire Wednesday in a busy Southern California hair salon, killing eight people and critically wounding another. Seal Beach police Sgt. Steve Bowles said two of three victims who were transported to a hospital in critical condition died. The other six victims died at the scene, where bodies lay scattered throughout the business in a normally sedate beach community.

Police arrested 42-year-old Scott Dekraai about a half-mile from the scene. The gunman got into a white truck and drove away from Salon Meritage, police said. The suspect surrendered without incident, Bowles said.

"We feel very confident we have the single and only suspect in custody," Bowles told NBC LA."There may be something to the motive as to a relationship with somebody in the salon, that is our assumption."

Former salon staffer Lidia Sosa told reporters the gunman targeted his ex-wife, the Long Beach Press-Telegram reported. Witnesses told police a custody dispute may have been behind the shootings.

Glenn Zachman, who owns a video news-gathering service, said he arrived at the scene of the arrest shortly after police and saw they had placed plastic bags over the man's hands to preserve possible gunshot residue. He also saw a bulletproof vest on the back of a patrol car but didn't know if the man, dressed in a button-down shirt and pants, had been wearing it.

The suspect was cooperative when officers, working from a description of the shooter, stopped him near the salon, Bowles said. The man, in handcuffs, being placed in a patrol car and taken away about two-and-a-half hours after the shooting. A new white pickup truck that was believed to be his was parked on the modest residential street with its doors open.

Shortly after the alleged shooter was arrested, police arrived at a house on Melody Lane in nearby Huntington Beach and escorted two women to a white car and then roped off the house with crime scene tape. Neighbors identified photos of the alleged shooter as their neighbor Scott. The house is registered to Scott Dekraai, and one of the licensed cosmetologists at the salon address was Michelle Dekraai.

The salon was busy at the time, with every hair-dressing station in operation, when the gunman opened fire about 1:30 p.m., police said.

Six bodies were scattered throughout the salon along with the wounded, Bowles said. One wounded man was found outside the building. It wasn't clear if he was trying to flee when he was shot. One of the victims was apparently the owner of the salon, Randy Fannin, a relative told the Los Angeles Times.

'People were seeking shelter'

One employee locked herself in the salon's facial room and was unharmed while another man locked himself in a bathroom but was wounded.

"We're unsure at this point if he shot from the entrance and people, as they were shot, ran in seeking cover or seeking shelter, but we have fatalities throughout the salon," Bowles told reporters at a news conference outside the business. "From my observation, it did look like people were seeking shelter at the time," he said.

Kimberly Criswell, who owns a salon just two doors down from the scene of the shootings, said she and her customers and employees heard gunshots, and her receptionist saw a man through a window as he was shot in a parking lot. "There was like a pop, pop and my receptionist screamed, 'he just shot that man' and we all ran into the bathroom and locked the door,'" Criswell said.

Bowles didn't know what type of weapon was used or if the man used more than one. He may have been wearing body armor, police said.

"It just caught everyone off guard and people started running outside to see what was happening," Zach Benson told NBC LA. "It was a very bizarre scene."

Adrian Aragon, a nephew of a longtime employee at the salon, told the Los Angeles Times that he worried about his uncle's well-being. He said he has been unable to reach his uncle, Gordy Gallego, at home or on his cellphone. "It's just going straight to voice mail," Aragon told the Times.

Relatives of victims were taken to a nearby spiritual center, NBC LA reported.

'Small-town atmosphere'

The killings stunned the normally quiet community of about 25,000 that boasts on its website that it has "retained its quaint, small-town atmosphere" since it was founded in 1915.

The city had one homicide last year and none during the previous three years, according to police statistics, the KNBC reported.

The worst mass-killing in Orange County's history was in 1976, when Edward Charles Allaway, at Cal State Fullerton, shot nine people and killed seven, The Orange County Register reported.

The community identifies itself as the Gateway to Southern California's Orange County and is about 30 miles southeast of Los Angeles. It is home to Leisure World, a gated senior citizen community of 9,000 people, as well as the Seal Beach Naval Weapons Station military complex. Two-thirds of the city's 13.23 square miles are occupied by the Seal Beach National Wildlife Refuge.

The Associated Press and msnbc.com staff contributed to this story.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44880955/ns ... ?GT1=43001#
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Modernistfan
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Modernistfan » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:42 am

Everyone should carry a gun! I'm thinking of getting one the next time I play bridge, so that if my partner disregards my signal and plays a club instead of a spade after I signaled for a spade and a spade would have beaten the opponents' contract, BLAMMO! (Obviously, I'm kidding, and I think that we do really need stronger gun control--I do not own a gun and never have.)

John F
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:47 am

If these terrorists hadn't had guns, each could have killed at most one person, and probably wouldn't even have tried.
John Francis

RebLem
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:34 pm

John F wrote:If these terrorists hadn't had guns, each could have killed at most one person, and probably wouldn't even have tried.
Newer reports suggest that the latest perp in California was wearing body armor in preparation for possibly having to deal with someone prepared to defend himself. Well, at least that helps to establish the element of premeditation, making a prosecutor's job a little easier.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

jbuck919
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:48 pm

Reminds me of the lady who gave the talk eight years ago to folks gathered in Arlington, VA to interview for Dept. of Defense teaching positions. Specifically about Germany, words to the effect of "Don't worry: You're a lot safer over there." And I know I was.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Agnes Selby
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Agnes Selby » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:06 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Reminds me of the lady who gave the talk eight years ago to folks gathered in Arlington, VA to interview for Dept. of Defense teaching positions. Specifically about Germany, words to the effect of "Don't worry: You're a lot safer over there." And I know I was.
-------------

Maybe 8 years ago!

Your safest place is in Sydney, Australia.

Our Governor, (Governor of the State of New South Wales), Professor Marie Bashir graduated
Medicine the same year as my husband. She and another lady (who committed
suicide in California) were study partners. We meet this busy lady just about every week
shopping for groceries. There is not a guard in sight. No one takes any notice
of her and only my husband helps his old friend load the groceries into her car.

Think about it...!

RebLem
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:39 am

7 People Shot Dead in Texas Home, Motive Unclear

By DANNY ROBBINS | Associated Press | December 26, 2011

GRAPEVINE, Texas--


Investigators believe that seven people who were found dead Christmas Day were cleaning up holiday wrapping paper when they were shot inside a suburban Fort Worth apartment, but a motive remains unclear.

All of the victims appeared to be related, and Grapevine police said they believe the shooter was among the dead. Investigators were meticulously searching the apartment, along with three vehicles parked outside, and didn't expect to finish until dawn on Monday.

"It appears they had just celebrated Christmas. They had opened their gifts," Grapevine Police Sgt. Robert Eberling said, adding that the apartment was decorated for the holiday, including a tree.

The four women and three men, aged 18 to 60, were found dead in an adjoining kitchen and living room area when police arrived midday Sunday, shortly after receiving a 911 call in which no one was on the other line, Eberling said. Two handguns were found near the bodies, he said.

None of the victims has been identified, but Eberling said it appears they all died of gunshot wounds. He said authorities still don't know what sparked the incident.

Grapevine Police Lt. Todd Dearing said investigators believe that the victims were related, though some were visiting and didn't live in the apartment. He said police are looking for other relatives to inform of the deaths.

"Seven people in one setting in Grapevine, that's never happened before. Ever," Dearing said.

Police and firefighters first rushed to the Lincoln Vineyards complex after receiving the open-ended 911 call at about 11:30 a.m., Eberling said.

"There was an open line. No one was saying anything," he explained.

So police went into the apartment, located in the middle-class neighborhood of Grapevine, not far from the upscale Fort Worth suburb of Colleyville. The apartment was at the back of the complex, overlooking the athletic fields of Colleyville Heritage High School.

But many of the nearby apartments are vacant, and police said no neighbors reported hearing anything on a quiet Christmas morning when many people were not around.

Jose Fernandez, a 35-year-old heavy equipment mechanic who moved to the complex with his family about six months ago, said he always felt safe in the area, but is now afraid to let his 10-year-old son play freely outside.

"This is really outrageous especially on Christmas," said Fernandez, who was visiting family for the holiday and returned to find several police cars parked outside his home.

"This has shocked everybody. It has scared everybody. I guess something like this can happen anywhere, but seven people dead. It's just very scary," he added.

Eberling agreed the area is fairly quiet, noting this would be the first homicide in Grapevine since 2010.

Christy Posch, a flight attendant who moved to the complex about six months ago so her son could attend the high school, said she lives a few buildings away and did not hear any gunshots.

"It's all families. That's why I moved here. No burglaries, no nothing," Posch said.

Associated Press writer Ramit Plushnick-Masti in Houston contributed to this report.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/peop ... r-15232801
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Bro
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Bro » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:54 am

Is this a gun problem or a human problem ? We never stop to realize the kind of environment we live in which can create a situation where we dehumanize each other. The very internet we use plays a role in the dehumanization. All the gun laws in the world can't prevent human tragedy, short of eliminating them altogether and that ain't gonna happen in these United States..


Bro

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Steinway » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:53 pm

Modernistfan wrote:Everyone should carry a gun! I'm thinking of getting one the next time I play bridge, so that if my partner disregards my signal and plays a club instead of a spade after I signaled for a spade and a spade would have beaten the opponents' contract, BLAMMO! (Obviously, I'm kidding, and I think that we do really need stronger gun control--I do not own a gun and never have.)
I strongly recommend you read an amazing book by Garry M.Pomerantz, entitled The Devil's Ticket. Perfectly on subject you've brought up!

John F
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:05 am

Bro wrote:Is this a gun problem or a human problem ?
Both, obviously. Guns make it possible, indeed easy, to kill people in large numbers with almost no effort, instead of attacking them one by one and hand to hand. If guns were banned and people carried knives (or swords) instead, they would still be adequately armed for self-defense in most cases, but would be less likely to use them to attack on impulse, and the chances of stopping them would be much greater. That wouldn't prevent "human tragedy" in general, of course, but it would undoubtedly prevent many individual human tragedies.
Bro wrote:We never stop to realize the kind of environment we live in which can create a situation where we dehumanize each other. The very internet we use plays a role in the dehumanization. All the gun laws in the world can't prevent human tragedy, short of eliminating them altogether and that ain't gonna happen in these United States.
Oh, I think most thinking people are well aware of this, though I deny that the Internet "plays a role in the dehumanization" any more than does writing letters or using the phone. Communication is humanizing, not dehumanizing, for better or worse. But I should think guns may have the effect of making the shooter's victims seem less human and more like targets in a shooting range or a video game.
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Bro
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Bro » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:16 am

John F wrote:
Both, obviously. Guns make it possible, indeed easy, to kill people in large numbers with almost no effort,
Both, obviously. However it seems, every time something goes wrong in America, the solution is to pass more laws. I wonder how many more laws we can pass against everything and anything. Maybe we should admit that in some cases there is no solution. Didn't the leader of the Norwegian Government say that the shooting tragedy there recently would bring about greater introspection ? Can you imagine an elected official here saying the same thing ? We should meet insanity half way with more wisdom, not greater restrictions, although in some cases those restrictions might be practical..

John F wrote:
Oh, I think most thinking people are well aware of this, though I deny that the Internet "plays a role in the dehumanization" any more than does writing letters or using the phone.
Then it's a matter of the degree of humanization. Talking to someone face to face is a little different than little bits and impulses going though optical cable and translating into text on a electric screen. I wonder how easy it is to write under an assumed name (such as mine "Bro") and realizing the receiver of your thoughts is many thousands of miles away,...would you treat them as a person who is right in front of you ? Have you ever read any of the comments on YouTube ? And those are mild next to the hate spewed on political boards or comments on Yahoo News ect. So it is a form of communication but one who's effects are exaggerated in a way we do not fully understand. Like the way tv distorts events that happen, merely by the electronics involved. I am not laying all or even most of the blame on the internet and television, it's just another piece of the puzzle. Or we could pass more gun laws and feel better about ourselves until another tragedy happens...


Bro

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:32 pm

4 shot dead in family tragedy

Westerville teacher among victims in Hocking County

By Collin Binkley, Wesley Lowery, Jim Woods, & Charlie Boss | The Columbus Dispatch | Tuesday January 10, 2012 11:30 PM

At least four people died at a Hocking County home last night, reportedly after a man who was caring for his terminally ill wife killed her two sisters, his son, then himself. The ill wife wasn’t shot.

The Hocking County sheriff’s office was called to the house, at 8187 Rt. 664, about 5 miles north of Logan, around 5:30 p.m.

Late last night, Keith Gilkey confirmed that the shooter was his brother, Paul Gilkey, 63. Paul Gilkey, state records show, had served a prison term for murder in the 1980s. Keith Gilkey said he had just received a phone call at his home in Hickman, Ky., from a relative, telling him of the shootings. Keith Gilkey said his brother was taking care of his wife, Darlene, 59, who he said is dying of cancer. He said that his brother killed their son, Leroy Gilkey, 38, who was a Spanish teacher at Westerville North High School and lived in Clintonville, and Darlene Gilkey’s two sisters. He didn’t know their names. Paul Gilkey then killed himself, the brother said.

Hocking County Sheriff Lanny North wouldn’t confirm the names of those dead early this morning, but he did confirm that the shooter had killed himself after killing his son and two women. North also confirmed that the two women were the ill woman’s sisters. Keith Gilkey said his brother had been caring for his wife, but that her family visited the home every day, disregarding him and treating him poorly.

“He was under a lot of pressure,” Keith Gilkey said. He said his brother didn’t even speak to his son, Leroy, and that Leroy was there because of the woman’s illness. After killing the others, Paul Gilkey eventually turned the gun on himself, Keith Gilkey said.

Darlene Gilkey’s son from another marriage escaped from the home, he said. Sheriff North said it was the stepson who had called the sheriff’s office. North said the shooter allowed the stepson to leave unharmed “because he had kids.” North said he wouldn’t characterize the situation as a standoff. He said deputies entered the house and found the shooter, along with the three others, dead at 8:45 p.m. “It was a squabble, but we’re not sure what it was about,” North said.

Neighbor John Poling said he heard at least three shots come from the house. He saw deputies close roads and surround the house before SWAT team members went in. Records show that Darlene Gilkey had divorced Paul Gilkey, though her brother-in-law said they had again remarried.

Paul Gilkey was convicted of murder in 1974 in Athens County. According to records, he used a fence post to beat to death Eldon Hardy, 53, at his home near Nelsonville on May 14, 1974. Gilkey entered the Ohio prison system in November 1974 and was released in August 1988.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... agedy.html

I thought convicted felons weren't supposed to be able to own guns. How did he get the gun? Would any of our Second Amendment afficionados care to defend Paul Gilkey's right to own a gun? RebLem
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Thu May 03, 2012 3:15 pm

Border militia leader kills 4, himself in Gilbert, sources say

By Jim Walsh and Lindsey Collom | Arizona Daily Star | Posted: Thursday, May 3, 2012 12:00 am

PHOENIX - A border militia leader shot and killed four people Wednesday at a Gilbert home, including a toddler, before committing suicide, sources said.

Sources identified the shooter as Jason "J.T." Ready, a reputed neo-Nazi who made headlines when he launched a militia movement to patrol the Arizona desert to hunt for illegal immigrants and drug smugglers.

Authorities have not identified the other victims, but reached by phone Wednesday afternoon, Hugo Mederos said the victims were his ex-wife, Lisa; their daughter, Amber; Amber's boyfriend, whose name The Republic is withholding until his next of kin could be notified; and Amber's 18-month-old baby, Lilly.

Mederos, who lives in Tampa, Fla., said Ready lived at the home with his girlfriend, Lisa.

Ready was a former Marine who headed the U.S. Border Guard, a militia-style group that routinely performed armed patrols in the Southern Arizona desert. Early this year, Ready had formed an exploratory committee for a run as Pinal County sheriff.

In a statement of organization filed Jan. 11, Amber Mederos was listed as treasurer of the Committee to Elect J.T. Ready. Her name was nowhere to be found in amended paperwork filed March 12.

Gilbert police spokesman Sgt. Bill Balafas said the gunman's motives are unknown. Authorities recovered two handguns and a shotgun from the scene, Balafas said.

Members of the anti-terrorism task force were at the scene and providing personnel to the Gilbert Police Department, according to an FBI spokesman.

Gilbert Fire Department's hazmat team went to check on the two 55-gallon drums found on the property and determined they did not represent an immediate threat. But the bomb squad encountered munitions in the house, and a decision was made to bring in federal agents to remove them and treat them as evidence.

The shootings occurred sometime after 1 p.m. in the 500 block of West Tumbleweed Road, near Warner and Cooper roads.

Balafas said the youngest victim was taken from the scene to Maricopa Medical Center, where she was pronounced dead.

"There were signs of life, that's why we transported her," Balafas said. "This is a domestic situation. We do have a witness that our investigators are interviewing."

Balafas said the witness saw at least part of the incident.

DeAnn Rawson, 38, who has lived in the Lago Estancia neighborhood for 13 years, said she was "sick to my stomach, as you can tell everyone driving by is absolutely shocked."

Rawson stood on a street corner and answered drivers who rolled down their windows to ask what happened.

"I would have come and got her," Rawson said of the youngest victim. "It makes me mad. I can't have children, and you have other people doing things that are insane."

Gary Davis, who also lives in the neighborhood, stood outside Wednesday afternoon, watching the commotion.

"There's no excuse for taking a child's life," Davis said. "Nothing ever happens in this neighborhood. It's a shock to us."

Mesquite Junior High School and nearby Gilbert Elementary School were placed on "modified lockdown" status - meaning classes went on as normal but students were not allowed to leave. No one was allowed to enter the building until 2 p.m.

Witnesses in the neighborhood said a SWAT team sealed off part of the area and that investigators told residents to remain indoors.

Nearly an hour after the shootings, police were milling around the neighborhood of stucco homes with red-tile roofs. Police tape cordoned off three areas of Tumbleweed Road.

Arizona Republic reporter JJ Hensley contributed to this article.

http://azstarnet.com/news/state-and-reg ... z1tq6mfMrL
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu May 03, 2012 3:45 pm

If states can deny atheists the right to public office, then surely they can deny guns to people. frig you, NRA.
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Thu May 03, 2012 4:04 pm

"There's no excuse for taking a child's life," Davis said.
But of course there's mitigation for every other use of a gun. :roll: No, I don't think that is what the man really meant to imply by his fatuous statement, but behind gun advocacy is the implication, and if you talk to some people the explicit opinion, that the actual use of a gun in a shoot-to-kill situation is justified for a wide variety of reasons that really are and ought to remain criminal even if they fall short of cold-blooded murder of a child.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Geo Dude » Fri May 04, 2012 4:54 pm

RebLem wrote: I thought convicted felons weren't supposed to be able to own guns. How did he get the gun? Would any of our Second Amendment afficionados care to defend Paul Gilkey's right to own a gun? RebLem
Why would we defend his right to own a gun?

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Fri May 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Geo Dude wrote:
RebLem wrote: I thought convicted felons weren't supposed to be able to own guns. How did he get the gun? Would any of our Second Amendment afficionados care to defend Paul Gilkey's right to own a gun? RebLem
Why would we defend his right to own a gun?
It is good news that you wouldn't. But I have to tell you that there are people who do defend the rights of convicted felons to own guns, and who vote against legislation to prevent it. Wayne LaPierre of the NRA is one of those who urges such a policy.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Teresa B » Fri May 04, 2012 6:37 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Reminds me of the lady who gave the talk eight years ago to folks gathered in Arlington, VA to interview for Dept. of Defense teaching positions. Specifically about Germany, words to the effect of "Don't worry: You're a lot safer over there." And I know I was.
-------------

Maybe 8 years ago!

Your safest place is in Sydney, Australia.

Our Governor, (Governor of the State of New South Wales), Professor Marie Bashir graduated
Medicine the same year as my husband. She and another lady (who committed
suicide in California) were study partners. We meet this busy lady just about every week
shopping for groceries. There is not a guard in sight. No one takes any notice
of her and only my husband helps his old friend load the groceries into her car.

Think about it...!
OK!
:)
Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

Geo Dude
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Geo Dude » Fri May 04, 2012 7:10 pm

RebLem wrote:
Geo Dude wrote:
RebLem wrote: I thought convicted felons weren't supposed to be able to own guns. How did he get the gun? Would any of our Second Amendment afficionados care to defend Paul Gilkey's right to own a gun? RebLem
Why would we defend his right to own a gun?
It is good news that you wouldn't. But I have to tell you that there are people who do defend the rights of convicted felons to own guns, and who vote against legislation to prevent it. Wayne LaPierre of the NRA is one of those who urges such a policy.
Ah. I'm a strong advocate of gun rights for law-abiding citizens, but I think it's common sense to deny access to a gun to anyone who has a history with violent crime, or a pattern of behavior that would strongly indicate a tendency towards violent crime. As an example, if a person has a history of heroin or cocaine busts I can understand the logic in barring them from gun possession since they might use a gun to get access to more drugs, but I don't think a person who got busted for, say, personal marijuana use (sadly a felony in some places) should be barred from owning a gun. I also wouldn't object if a person with a string of misdemeanors (say, someone who had a long history of getting into bar fights) was denied access until they'd had a clean record for, say, ten years.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:15 am

I also want to know what kind of dopey ass parents would take a 3 month old or a 4 year old to a midnight movie, and whether or not the police have reported them to the Colorado child protective agency. RebLem

12 killed, 50 wounded at Aurora movie theater

By Ryan Parker, Kurtis A. Lee and Jordan Steffen The Denver Post The Denver Post

AURORA —
About 50 people were shot — 12 fatally — early Friday when a gunman opened fire at an Aurora movie theater during a premiere showing of the new Batman movie.

A 24-year-old man in is custody and an apartment building in north Aurora connected to the suspect was being evacuated and was booby-trapped, according to Police Chief Dan Oates.

Several federal sources identified the suspect as James Holmes, NBC reported.

The University of Colorado confirmed that Holmes was in the process of withdrawing from the university's graduate program in neurosciences. Holmes enrolled at the university in June 2011.

Ten people died at the scene and two others died at hospitals. Many of the injured were critically injured.

Around 12:39 a.m., police received multiple reports of the shooting at the theater complex, located at 14300 E. Alameda Ave., and arrived minutes later, according to Aurora police.

Police say the suspect "appeared" at the front of one of the theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises." Witnesses told The Post he entered through an emergency exit at the right front of the Theater 9 less than 10 minutes into the film.

The suspect then threw some type of explosive and started shooting into the packed theater.

The man had a rifle, a handgun and a gas mask when police arrested him. At this time, police have no evidence that there are any additional suspects involved in the shooting.

The bodies of the 10 people who died at the theater remain at the scene while police continue to investigate. Police previously stated that 14 people were killed.

After his arrest, the suspect made a statement about possible explosives in his residence.

Police have blocked off a three-block area around an apartment complex in north Aurora. Residents in the area said they were evacuated around 2 a.m. while police searched the third floor of the apartment building.

Police from all over the metro area had been called to the scene.

Authorities are searching a white car parked behind the movie theater.

Corbin Dates and Jennifer Seeger were sitting in the second row of the theater.

During the opening credits, Dates saw someone in the front row answer a phone call and walk to the emergency door in the front of the theater, he said.

Less than an hour later a man, dressed in black and wearing a gas mask and what looked like body armor, marched into the theater through the same emergency exit. He lobbed two canisters and almost instantly the theater filled with smoke.

Dates and Seeger, like everyone else in the theater, thought the man and the smoke were all part of the show, they said. Right as their eyes began to tear up from the smoke, the man fired a shot at the ceiling.

The gunman moved through the crowd and stopped in front of Seeger.

He pointed a long rifle at her face and said nothing.

He shot at the person sitting behind her, Seeger said.

"I have no idea why he didn't shoot me," Seeger said.

The two dove to the ground. They could feel hot shell casings hitting their legs as the tried to crawl through the dark theater now filled with smoke. Seeger's forehead has a burned from one of the casings.

Her friends urged each other and the people around them to stay quiet, desperate not to draw the attention of the gunman who was working his way up the isle.

As she huddled on the ground, Seeger could see bodies of women and children lying around her.

Seeger, who has some EMT training, tried to help a man bleeding next to her. She worked to find a pulse, but was forced to leave him behind as they tried to flee the theater.

People tried to exit through the main entrance of the theater, Seeger said. By then the gunman had worked his way to the back of the theater, shooting at people as they tried to run.

Seeger estimates she was trapped in the theater for 10 to 15 minutes. When she finally reached the lobby, she saw a police officer cocking a shot gun.

Once outside, Seeger called her father.

"My dad is not a sentimental guy, but he was crying on the phone," Seeger said.

James Wilburn was also sitting in the second row of the theater when the emergency door opened.

"He was dressed in black," Wilburn said. "Wearing a flack jacket and a gas mask."

The man dropped a canister to the floor that began spewing gas before he fired several rounds toward the back of the theater.

Naya Thompson, 21, said the gas spread quickly through the theater and thinks that the gunman may have dropped two canisters.

"It was like tear gas," Thompson said. "I was coughing and chocking and I couldn't breathe," Thompson said.

Benjamin Fernandez, 30, said he was watching the movie when he heard a series of explosions. He said that people ran from the theater and there were gunshots as police shouted "get down!"

Frenandez said he saw people falling, including one young girl.

Brittany Romero was in Theater 10 for the 12:15 a.m. showing. When the fire alarm sounded, people began throwing their popcorn and drinks in the air, assuming it was a practical joke, Romero said.

Salina Jordan, 19, was in Theater 8 and saw people fall after they were shot. She said one girl was struck in cheek, others were wounded in the stomach including a girl who looked to be around 9-years-old.

Jordan said it sounded like firecrackers until someone ran into Theater 8 yelling "they're shooting out here!"

The police came running in, telling people to run out. Some police were carrying or dragging bodies, she said.

Meghan Walton, 20, of Boulder said she was sitting beside her friend Gage Hankins, 18 of Ohio, in Theater 8 when he was shot in the arm before he was rushed out of the theater.

"I saw a whole lot of smoke in the isle," Walton said. "I saw about three of four bullets shot near the smoke."

Walton was with 10 members of the group Friends: Association of Young People who Stutter.

"I ran outside and was holding his arm that was hot," Walton said. "My eyes were blurred by the smoke. It was like chaos. People were crying hysterically."

She counted 12 people who were bleeding. Ambulances started arriving but there were not enough to put everyone in them.

"The worst was a man who was shot in the head. He had his hand on his head," Walton said. "They started doubling up, putting two people in the same ambulance. One girl who wasn't injured as badly was placed in a police car and rushed away."

Police set up a command post near the Dillards department store and were interviewing hundreds of possible witnesses. Many were taken by bus to Gateway High School for questioning.

Robert Jones, 28, was in Theater 9 when the shooting started.

Jones said when he first saw smoke billowing from the front of the theater, he thought it was a special effect. Shots rang out almost immediately after.

"I thought it was pretty much the end of the world," Roberts said.

Roberts stayed flat on the ground until police came into the theater.

Tammi Stevens said her son, 18-year-old Jacob Stevens, was inside Theater 9 when the shooting started. Stevens was waiting for her son at Gateway High School while police interviewed him.

Jacob told his mom that he saw a guy walk into the theater wearing body armor and throw some sort of cannister that then emitted some sort of gas.

"You let your kids go to a late night movie...you never think something like this would happen," Stevens said.

President Obama addressed the shooting from Ft. Myers, Fla., Friday morning.

"We never understand what leads someone to terrorize their fellow human beings like this," Obama said. "Life is very fragile and it' is precious."

Gov. John Hickenlooper released a statement Friday morning.

"It is beyond the power of words to fully express our sorrow this morning," Hickenlooper said. "We appreciate the swift work by local, state and federal law enforcement. Coloradans have a remarkable ability to support one another in times of crisis. This is one of those times."

In a statement released this morning, Republican Mitt Romney said that he was "deeply saddened" by the "senseless violence."

The FBI is assisting in the investigation. Officers and deputies responded from almost every local police and sheriff's department in the metro area.

The FBI said that there is no indication that the shooting has any connection to terrorism, the AP reported.

Victims were transported to at least six hospitals. Several of them were rushed to hospitals in police cars. Ages of people injured and killed in the shooting vary.

One child and five adults were taken to Children's Hospital Colorado. The adults ranged in age from 18 to 31 years old. One of the six patients died and the other five are currently listed in conditions from good to critical.

Information on which of the patients died was not released.

Shortly after midnight, patients started arriving at the Medical Center of Aurora. A total of 15 patients — ranging from 17 to 31 years old — were sent to the medical center, 12 of them with gunshot wounds.

Four patients are currently in surgery, two are being prepared for surgery, seven patients have been admitted to the hospital and three have been released.

Doctors at the hospital said the gunshot wounds appeared to come from a high caliber weapon.

Swedish Medical Center spokeswoman Nicole Williams says two people injured at the theater have arrived at the hospital in critical condition.

She says emergency workers said there could be several more patients.

Denver Health Medical Center treated six victims from the shooting. All were treated for gunshot wounds and abrasions. Three victims have since been released, the other three remain in fair condition, hospital officials said.

A total of 23 victims were taken to the University of Colorado Hospital.

Rep. Ronda Fields of Aurora, announced that she is hosting a prayer vigil for "any and all" at 7 p.m. at the Aurora Municipal Building at 15151 E. Alameda Parkway.

Warner Bros. studio released a statement Friday morning saying the studio is "deeply saddened to learn about this shocking incident. The studio has canceled the red carpet premier of "The Dark Knight Rises" in Paris, The Hollywood Reporter said.

Aurora police are asking anyone with information about the shooting to call 303-627-3100.

Denver Post Staff Writer Kieran Nicholson, Michael Booth and Tegan Hanlon contributed to this report

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ ... ie-theater
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:27 pm

3 shot to death in Pa. and 4-year-old girl kidnapped but found safe in Ohio; father charged

By Associated Press | Washington Post | Saturday, July 28, 8:00 AM

QUINCY, Pa. —
A Pennsylvania man confronting his estranged wife about custody arrangements for their daughter shot the woman to death and killed her boyfriend and his mother, then fled with the 4-year-old girl before the two were found about 250 miles away in Ohio, authorities said.

Kevin Cleeves, 35, of Waynesboro was charged Saturday with three counts of criminal homicide and was awaiting an extradition hearing in the Friday night deaths of 25-year-old Brandi Cleeves, 28-year-old Vincent Santucci and 55-year-old Rosemary Holma.

Pennsylvania state police said in an affidavit that Cleeves told relatives he had been trying to contact his wife to make arrangements to pick his daughter up and went to Santucci’s house in Quincy Township to make sure the girl was safe.

Police said Cleeves saw his wife, Santucci and the girl in a car and confronted the couple in the driveway but was ordered off the property.

Authorities said he then opened fire around 9 p.m. Friday, shooting Santucci in the car and then his wife when she jumped out, and finally the older woman as she ran toward him. Police said he took the girl and fled, later telling authorities he was trying to get to a relative’s house in Michigan.

An Amber Alert was issued in which authorities said Cleeves should be considered “armed and dangerous as well as suicidal.” The alert was canceled hours later, on Saturday, after police in Austintown in northeastern Ohio, outside Youngstown, said the car was spotted in a hotel parking lot off Interstate 80 and later stopped in the parking lot of the Weston Plaza on Route 46, where Cleeves was arrested without incident.

“His 4-year-old daughter was located in the vehicle and was unharmed,” police said in a statement.

Court records did not list an attorney for Cleeves, who was in the Mahoning County Jail, police said.

A detective with the Austintown Township police department in Ohio told The (Chambersburg) Public Opinion that an extradition hearing was scheduled for Monday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:28 pm

At least 7 dead, including shooter, at Sikh Temple

By Mike Johnson, Karen Herzog and Annysa Johnson | Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel | Sunday, August 5, 2012

At least seven people were killed, including one shooter, just after 10 a.m. Sunday at the Sikh Temple in Oak Creek [Wisconsin], police said.

Four of the dead were inside the temple at 7512 S. Howell Ave. and three of the dead, including a shooter, were outside the temple.

A police SWAT team entered the building before noon and brought uninjured people out of the building, 7512 S. Howell Ave.

They started removing injured people from the temple's prayer room.

SWAT team members were still sweeping the building about 1 p.m. and an explosion was heard from the building at that time. It was unclear what the explosion was.

About six gunshots were heard at 2:30 p.m. in the area. The shots appeared to be coming from the temple.

The first officer on the scene Sunday morning encountered an active shooter and exchanged fire with him, according to Greenfield Police Chief Bradley Wentlandt who briefed media on the scene.

The shooter went down and is believed to be dead, said Wentlandt. He said authorities had no evidence of a second shooter.

Wentlandt said the officer was hit multiple times, but is expected to survive. He said the officer was a 20-year veteran and "an extremely accomplished tactical officer." He was taken to Froedtert Hospital in Wauwatosa where he was in surgery just before 2 p.m.

White House officials said President Barack Obama was notified of the shootings shortly before 1 p.m. by John Brennan, his Homeland Security adviser. The president continues to receive updates.

Among those who were shot was the president of the temple, Satwant Kaleka, who was taken to Froedtert Hospital.

Gurmit Kaleka, a nephew of Satwant Kaleka, was at the hospital and said he was in surgery. He said Satwant is 65 years old. He is married with two grown sons. One is a former MPD officer. Satwant Kaleka has been president of the church since about 1996. He has never felt threatened or unsafe in any way, Gurmit Kaleka said.

Deepinder Dhaliwal said Satwant Kaleka, his brother in law, was shot in the back.

Dhaliwal said his sister, the president's wife, called him while hiding inside the building with a few other women.

Darshan Dhaliwal, who identified himself as a leader at the temple, said between 20 and 25 women who were cooking a lunch in the basement for after the service and between five to 10 children had been able to leave the temple at about 1 p.m. Dhaliwal said they heard the gunshots and hid in closets for more than an hour before escaping. Dhaliwal said the temple had not been the subject of any threats or graffiti recently.

"This is insanity," he said.

Jim Haase, a retired firefighter lives on Manitoba Court near the temple. He said that he tended to the wounds of a high priest. He said he heard gunfire and his dog, Paris, "was just going nuts."

"I tended to his wounds," he said. "He was shot right through the side"

"I called the emergency number but I couldn't get through, so I called the non-emergency number of Oak Creek Fire Department and got their med unit to come over."

Haase said the priest was in shock, but conscious.

"I laid him down," he said. "I was with him for about 10 minutes. I tended to his wounds, then they took him away."

Dick Katschke, a spokesman for the Medical College of Wisconsin, said three adult males were being treated at Froedtert Hospital in Wauwatosa. One of the three was undergoing surgery in the intensive care ward. Another is in an operating room. And the third is being treated in the emergency room, Katschke said.

All three were being treated for gunshot wounds. All are in critical condition, according to Froedtert.

People were in the temple as early as 6:30 a.m. Sunday and many more were arriving for a service that was to begin about 11:30 a.m.

There were reports that children were taken away from the area of the building where the shooting took place after shots were fired.

Someone who sent a text message to a Journal Sentinel reporter shortly before noon said that there were two shooters with children possibly as hostages.

And the head priest was locked inside a restroom with a cell phone and that there were as many as 20 to 30 victims.

One of the temple's committee members, Ven Boba Ri, said that based on communication with people inside the temple, the shooter was a white male in his 30s.

"We have no idea," he said of the motive. "It's pretty much a hate crime. It's not an insider."

According to Ri, the man started shooting after he walked up to a priest who was standing outside, and shot him.

Then he went inside and started shooting.

People inside the temple were using cell phones to call people outside, saying please send help, Ri said.

"It's sad, I don't know how to describe it," said Ri, who has been fielding calls all morning from around the world, including India.

"Sikhism is such a peaceful religion. We have suffered for generations, in India and even here."

"We're all the same," said temple member Jaswinder Schandock. "Everybody has the same blood."

Groups of temple members were gathered, on cell phones, conferring in small groups and watching from afar. A member of the Sikh Temple in Brookfield said three of those who were killed are priests. Authorities have not identified any of those who died.

Numerous police agencies had responded to scene to assist Oak Creek, including the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

At least two dozen ambulances responded, including from Oak Creek, Caledonia, North Shore Fire, Greenfield and West Allis. Those ambulances had moved to the temple about 12:40 p.m.

As of about 3:45 p.m., the Milwaukee County Medical Examiner's Office said it had not been called to the scene.

The Joint Terrorism Task Force, a collection of federal, state and local law enforcement, was on the scene of the shooting by 1 p.m. Those task forces, several of which are situated around the country, typically work quietly to prevent terrorism attacks but also respond to mass shootings to help coordinate law enforcement. Sources said it was too early to say if this will be considered an act of terrorism.

U.S. Attorney James Santelle said he expected federal law enforcement will play a role in the investigation. Exactly what that role is remains to be seen, Santelle said.

"I am clearly anticipating that there will be federal investigative support," Santelle said.

The FBI and U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives both confirmed that their agents were on the scene of shooting and assisting local law enforcement. The agencies declined comment, saying Oak Creek police are the primary point of contact. The ATF did say that the gun or guns used in the shooting will be traced to the original seller.

The Wisconsin Department of Justice also was said to be sending agents to assist in the investigation.

Meanwhile, Brookfield police officers were dispatched to the Sikh Temple at 3675 N. Calhoun Road as a precaution in the aftermath of the Oak Creek shooting.

At least three squads were at the temple in Waukesha County and they blocked off roads leading to the building.

About 50 people were at the Brookfield temple for a morning service and many of them went outside after they learned of the shooting in Oak Creek.

Gurcharan Grewal, president of the Sikh Religious Society of Wisconsin told a Journal Sentinel reporter: "People are really shocked. There was a little bit of panic. But everything is holding together."

He said U.S. Senate candidate Tommy Thompson was at the Brookfield location to address the congregation when the news of the shooting from Oak Creek came in.

Grewal said he has heard no theories on the shooter's motivation.

"Nobody knows," he said. "There was no indication, no warning, nothing. I think it was just some isolated hate crime or something. "

Grewal said he thought 40 or 50 people were in the temple, not the 400 or so who might have been present after 11:30 a.m.

Among those shot, he said, were two priests. He did not know their conditions.

He spoke with another priest, Gurmail Singh, who was locked in a closet, and was not injured.

More than 20 million people worldwide follow the Sikh religion, established about 500 years ago in the Punjab region of India. Devout male followers must wear long beards and their hair in a turban, and in America are sometimes mistaken for Muslims; the two religions are not affiliated.

In the days after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, at least four acts of violence against Sikhs occurred in the Milwaukee area, , said Swarnjit S. Arora, a founder of the local Sikh Religious Society said in 2002. Two taxis owned by Sikh drivers were vandalized, and two Sikh men were assaulted, said Arora. The crimes were not widely reported by the news media because they were overshadowed by dramatic events across the nation, he said.

About 3,000 Sikh families live in southeastern Wisconsin. A tight-knit community, they meet for religious services and to share meals at the Religious Society in Brookfield and the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, in Oak Creek, which opened in 2007. .

The Oak Creek scene was similar to the situation in 2005, when a gunman killed seven people and himself at a church meeting in a Brookfield hotel.

Terry Ratzmann, 44, opened fire March 12, 2005, during a worship service of the Living Church of God at the Sheraton hotel in Brookfield.

Journal Sentinel staff writers Tom Daykin, John Diedrich, Bruce Vielmetti, Don Walker, James B. Nelson, Georgia Pabst, Paul Gores, Raquel Rutledge and Craig Nickels contributed to this report.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/repo ... 59506.html
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Mark Harwood
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Mark Harwood » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:14 pm

Who has a beef with Sikhs?
Unlike some Muslims, they pose no threat to America or its way of living.
Was this a stupid mistaken-identity attack by some ill-informed anti-Jihadist?
Whatever the motivation, it's bloody sad.
"I did it for the music."
Ken Colyer

John F
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:59 pm

Mark Harwood wrote:Who has a beef with Sikhs?
Unlike some Muslims, they pose no threat to America or its way of living.
Was this a stupid mistaken-identity attack by some ill-informed anti-Jihadist?
Whatever the motivation, it's bloody sad.
They wear turbans and beards. After 9/11, at least one Sikh was shot to death (I believe it was in Arizona) for no better reason than that.
John Francis

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:30 pm

Yes, Virginia, the NRA is right about one thing. Not every massacre involves firearms. Just the vast majority of 'em. Here's an exception. RebLem

Murder warrants anticipated in Bellevue triple homicide case

Clarksville [TN] Leaf-Chronicle | www.theleafchronicle.com | 8:56 PM, Sep 2, 2012

NASHVILLE, TENN. —
Murder warrants are expected to filed soon against 41-year-old Craig Garber for today’s stabbing deaths of three members of a family in his Bellevue neighborhood.

Killed were Michelle Pinkowski, 48, her son, Jonathan Culpepper, 14, and her mother, Marylea Jordan, 71. All were found dead inside their 808 Beech Bend Drive home. Garber lives at 816 Beech Bend Drive.

The stabbing call came into the Emergency Communications Center at 2:47 a.m. West Precinct officers were on the scene within four minutes. As officers knocked on the door of 808 Beech Bend Drive, they saw a bloodied man through the glass. He answered the door and uttered, “Just kill me.” That man was Craig Garber. He obeyed commands and got on the ground. Garber was found to be suffering from multiple stab and laceration wounds, apparently self-inflicted. He was taken to Vanderbilt University Medical Center where he underwent surgery. Garber is now listed in critical but stable condition.

As officers cleared the bloody residence, they discovered Culpepper deceased inside his bedroom. Jordan was dead in the hallway outside her grandson’s bedroom. Pinkowski was dead in the finished basement. Detectives believe that Pinkowski was killed first, Culpepper second and Jordan, who had responded to the commotion in her grandson’s room, third.

Pinkowski’s nine-year-old daughter was asleep on the couch upstairs when she was awakened by all the noise. Garber apparently didn’t see her. The girl saw Garber attack her grandmother with the knife. She then fled downstairs and out a rear door. She ran through the darkness to a friend’s home a few houses away. Her friend’s mother called 911, while the friend’s father armed himself with a pistol and went to the front door of 808 Beech Bend Drive. The citizen banged on the door, but it was not answered. At about that point he heard police sirens and moved away so the officers could take over.

West Precinct detectives and police department crime scene specialists from the Identification Division have been processing the crime scene throughout the day. It will be well after dark before they leave.

The motive for this triple homicide has not been firmly established. Persons in the neighborhood did tell police that Garber suspected Culpepper of stealing a GPS device from another resident’s car. Officers have also been told that Garber suffers from emotional issues and is on medication.

Garber and Pinkowski were acquaintances. The two were seen seated on Garber’s front porch at 11 p.m. Saturday.

Officers responded to both 816 and 808 Beech Bend Drive on Saturday. At 7:30 a.m., police were asked to check on Garber’s welfare after a staffer from the Bellevue YMCA called the Emergency Communications Center to report that Garber cancelled his Y membership Saturday morning for no reason and that something just didn’t seem right. An officer checked on Garber and did not perceive any issues. That was the only police call to 816 Beech Bend Drive this year.

On Saturday afternoon, Michelle Pinkowski called the Emergency Communications Center to report that a man was at her door and that she didn’t want him there. Seconds later she told the call taker the man was leaving. The officer who responded to the call said Pinkowski was anxious to get to work and did not want a police report completed.

Other calls to the residence this year concerned Marylea Jordan’s fraud report in August involving an individual in California, and three juvenile-related domestic disturbance reports, two in February and one in March.

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article ... icide-case
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:14 am

Gunman kills 3 women, wounds 4 others, then commits suicide at Azana Spa in Brookfield

By Milwaukee Journal Sentinel staff and Rick Romell of the Journal Sentinel | Sunday, October 21, 2012 | Updated: 11:54 p.m.

This time it wasn't a church. But the result of Sunday's shooting rampage, at a prominent salon and spa in Brookfield, sounded all too familiar: Three people murdered, four others injured and a lone gunman dead by suicide.

In the Milwaukee area's second mass shooting in less than three months, a 45-year-old Brown Deer man - husband, father, homeowner and ex-Marine - turned the Azana Salon & Spa across from Brookfield Square mall into a killing ground. Dead were three women, all shot as Radcliffe F. Haughton stormed through the salon bent on killing his estranged wife, an employee there. About a dozen people were in the building at the time. Police wouldn't say Sunday whether Haughton's wife, Zina, was among the dead.

But there is little question she was the target. Just two weeks ago, she got a temporary restraining order placed on Haughton after he showed up at Azana and slashed the tires of her car. A judge granted a four-year restraining order against Haughton on Oct. 18. Sunday evening, Brookfield Police Chief Daniel Tushaus said it appeared Haughton's rampage was rooted in domestic violence.

The killings occurred only a half-mile from the 2005 murders of seven people by a gunman who opened fire at a church service, and 11 weeks after a mass shooting at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in Oak Creek left six dead, plus the killer. The former crime was the work of a religiously devout church member who came mentally unhinged. The latter apparently was motivated by ethnic hatred. This one seems to have been personal.

Haughton had sent signals recently of possible trouble. About the time the restraining order was issued, he posted on his Facebook page: "Need to get out of Wisconsin, HELP . . . " Not long afterward, he told his father - who warned him not to "do anything stupid" - that he had to leave the state. And a Google Plus page linked to Haughton includes a bizarre photograph of a man who appears to be him, pointing what looks to be a weapon at the camera.

Outwardly, Haughton's life in some respects appeared to be on solid ground. He had worked as a salesman of pricey imported cars, and he and Zina had owned their Brown Deer home - a ranch house in a middle class neighborhood with neatly raked lawns - since 2002. They shared the house with their 13-year-old daughter and Zina's 20-year-old daughter from a previous relationship.

But in suburban Chicago, where he grew up, Haughton accumulated a misdemeanor criminal record, twice convicted in the 1990s of marijuana possession and once this year of disorderly conduct, the Chicago Tribune reported. In Milwaukee County, he was charged last year with disorderly conduct, but the case was dismissed after a key witness didn't show for the trial, online records show.

Sunday, Brown Deer Police Chief Steven Rinzel said his department has had contact with Haughton - most recently in the past few weeks - and has been called to his home. Haughton took a taxi Sunday to Azana, 200 N. Moorland Road, Brookfield. He got there about 11 a.m., toting his weapon - police haven't said what kind of gun or guns he used - and a black-and-white backpack.

Then, chaos.

Katie O'Rourke heard the gunshots ring out. She and another massage therapist were upstairs with two clients. They had no idea where the shooter was, but they knew they had to act. They took the massage tables and turned them into barricades against the unlocked door, doused the lights, turned off the piped-in music and crouched in fear in the dark, windowless room for nearly 45 terrifying minutes. Speaking in whispers on her cellphone, O'Rourke, 23, of Wauwatosa, called 911. At first, the operator told her to leave the building - a two-story, 9,000-square-foot structure carved up into many small rooms. O'Rourke didn't like that idea. "I didn't know where the shooter was," she said.

She said the 911 operator tried to keep her calm, telling her that help was coming. O'Rourke and the others heard the sprinklers go off in a hallway but sat tight. "We didn't even know if the building was on fire," O'Rourke said. After nearly 45 minutes, police got to the women's room. "The operator was talking to the officers outside the door," O'Rourke said.

She and the other three opened the door, then made for the exit. "We all held hands and got out of there as fast as possible," she said. As they fled, O'Rourke said she stepped over a lifeless body on the first floor. Nearby, she saw another victim, apparently dead, on the floor. "I don't even know how to describe it," she said of her experience. "It was scary. It was something else." Others also were terrorized. One woman fled, screaming, into traffic on Moorland Road. "She ran right out into the street and was pounding on cars," said David Gosh of West Allis, who had been returning from duck hunting earlier Sunday with his father, John, and a friend, Ben Luedke.

Gosh said that moments later, a man with a handgun ran out and appeared to be chasing the woman. Just then, Gosh said, police began streaming to the scene, and the gunman, seeing them, ran back into the building.

John Gosh said he saw two women come out of the building who had been shot. Both were bloody; one appeared to have been shot in the leg, the other in the back. Another bystander, Christopher Pfeiffer of Pewaukee, saw a young woman run barefoot and frantic through the Brookfield Square parking lot. "She was screaming, yelling, crying hysterically. She was pleading for help," Pfeiffer said. "She kept saying, 'My mother was shot.' "

The four wounded women - ages 22, 30, 32 and 40 - were taken to Froedtert Hospital in Wauwatosa. All are expected to survive, hospital officials said Sunday evening. The women were not identified. One of the four was undergoing surgery early Sunday night and was in critical condition. A second had already undergone surgery and was in satisfactory condition. A third was stabilized and scheduled for surgery later Sunday night. A fourth did not require surgery but was admitted, hospital officials said. Details of the injuries, including the number of times victims were shot, were not provided. Gary Seabrook, director of surgical services, said four patients were brought to the hospital "with multiple gunshot wounds to their extremities."

Tushaus said police got the first call - "shooting in progress" - at 11:09 a.m. When officers got to the salon they found three women dead at the scene and helped evacuate the other victims as well as others who were inside the building, the chief said.
There was smoke in the building from a small fire in a hallway that they believe Haughton started. Also in the building was a one-pound propane tank, but Tushaus said it was unknown if Haughton had brought that to the salon or if it had been left by contractors who were working at the site earlier. It took police hours to search and secure the building. The process was painstaking because of the many small rooms at the salon, and because officers didn't know Haughton was dead.

"We methodically did a search of that building expecting to encounter the suspect," Tushaus said at a news conference. "That's what took us so long. . . . We were expecting an armed encounter if we did come across him."

Sympathy for the victims poured in Sunday. Many people posted comments on Azana's Facebook page. Owner Tami Gemmell issued a statement thanking those who had reached out. "We are devastated by this tragedy and remain in shock over how this could have happened," she said. "Please know that our first concern is for the victims and their families, and for our Azana family . . . "

As Pardeep Kaleka knows too well. His father was among those killed at the Sikh Temple in August, and the sorrow Kaleka endured led him to a new role - as a volunteer grief counselor with the Salvation Army. He was at the temple Sunday when the organization texted him: More people had been shot, and he was needed. So on another sunny morning, not so different from the day his father died, Kaleka was in Brookfield, consoling others. Some told him they'd been in the salon and heard the gunshots. "I told them they'd hear gunshots echoing for a long time," he said.

This story was written by Rick Romell, with contributions from John Diedrich, John Fauber, Ellen Gabler, Bill Glauber, Paul Gores, Karen Herzog, Meg Jones, Jim Nelson, Georgia Pabst, Crocker Stephenson and Don Walker, all of the Journal Sentinel staff.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/mult ... 47441.html
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:25 pm

Obviously this is now going to be about the shooting in Connecticut. I only learned about it from NPR on the way home from a sub assignment. Either substitute teachers are excluded from the rumor mill or the school decided to keep it quiet (maybe by the principal sending an e-mail to teachers) or some combination of such, which is is a good thing because it would have been an unnecessary disruption to the educational day (to say the least) if it got out to the students.

First let me make it clear that I react to this the same way everyone does (or should--while President Obama was right on target, the remarks from the Governor of Connecticut were off the mark of the main point, which I'm sure he'll hear about). Then let me have my rant about NPR's science correspondent Shankar Vedantam (why on earth did they bring him in in the first place?). Twice (with intervening cuts to others) he was asked about PTSD among survivors and twice he ignored the question. First, he said that we should remember that school shootings are very rare and what people should really worry about in terms of their safety was wearing seat belts; second, he said (correctly) that nobody feels safe from such an event, but the way to deal with it is for schools to take (unspecified) measure to make them feel that they cannot be the next target. Of course, he was not as coldly blunt about it as my summary indicates, but that is essentially what he said. Here's my question: How much did the NRA or other elements of the gun lobby pay him for that kind of commentary?

Probably my imagination, of course, but NPR staff and audience are sophisticated enough that if I noticed it then so did they, and if there's anything to it I hope they nail the guy with lots of publicity.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:37 pm

God almighty, I cannot begin to imagine the terror for the students and the grief of their parents at this time. Who cares about commentary - let's all start thinking about the victims, which includes a lot of people one way or another. The list of atrocities on this thread is mind-numbing. I will certainly think about these people on my Christmas Day and may God bless them all.

Let's talk about cause and effect some other time.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:45 pm

Tarantella wrote:God almighty, I cannot begin to imagine the terror for the students and the grief of their parents at this time. Who cares about commentary - let's all start thinking about the victims, which includes a lot of people one way or another. The list of atrocities on this thread is mind-numbing. I will certainly think about these people on my Christmas Day and may God bless them all.

Let's talk about cause and effect some other time.
If it was good enough for Obama to allude to in his fine, entirely sincere and sympathetic statement (and bravo!), it should be good enough for anybody. Ten million expressions of how awful it is and how bad I feel will do nothing to prevent the next one of these. In fact, I'm sure the gun lobby is counting on the prevalence of your attitude to keep attention focused away from them as long and as much as possible.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:50 pm

I'm just saying it's time to think of families and communities right now. Dealing with cause and effect can and should be done in the cold light of day. In fact, it should have been done years ago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:50 pm

Tarantella wrote:I'm just saying it's time to think of families and communities right now.
I am thinking of families and communities, including my own.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:53 pm

jbuck919 wrote:In fact, I'm sure the gun lobby is counting on the prevalence of your attitude to keep attention focused away from them as long and as much as possible.
You make them all sound like monsters. If that is the case there are many millions of them. An extra reason to grieve.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:13 pm

Tarantella wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:In fact, I'm sure the gun lobby is counting on the prevalence of your attitude to keep attention focused away from them as long and as much as possible.
You make them all sound like monsters. If that is the case there are many millions of them. An extra reason to grieve.
The gun lobby are monsters, and while they may be abetted by millions of less venal citizens, they do not come in such numbers themselves.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by josé echenique » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:33 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Tarantella wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:In fact, I'm sure the gun lobby is counting on the prevalence of your attitude to keep attention focused away from them as long and as much as possible.
You make them all sound like monsters. If that is the case there are many millions of them. An extra reason to grieve.
The gun lobby are monsters, and while they may be abetted by millions of less venal citizens, they do not come in such numbers themselves.
In Mexico, where it´s illegal to buy guns, let alone walk with one, mass killings started just as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was lifted in 2003.
It´s just incomprehensible that many Americans believe that the "Right to bear arms" includes weapons that your Founding Fathers couldn´t have imagined even in their worst nightmares, which is what those poor folk in Connecticut are living in this moment.
My condolences to you all.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by living_stradivarius » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:18 pm

Knife attack in a school in China wounds 22 children. No fatalities.
Image

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by piston » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:14 pm

It's a complicated matter. Realize that there are more gunshops in this country, over 58,000 of them, than there are Starbucks on the globe.
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/ ... unshops-us
To begin to regulate them all is a task that a visibly touched president today would have to approach with tremendous caution, given that he is already accused of being against the interests of American businesses.

So, how to proceed? How to ensure that, on any given day, a greatly disturbed white male person (in all but one of the last sixty-one such cases, we are dealing with males and they are virtually all Caucasians) will not explode and bring down several human beings in the process? Please tell me how?
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:22 pm

piston wrote:It's a complicated matter. Realize that there are more gunshops in this country, over 58,000 of them, than there are Starbucks on the globe.
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/ ... unshops-us
To begin to regulate them all is a task that a visibly touched president today would have to approach with tremendous caution, given that he is already accused of being against the interests of American businesses.

So, how to proceed? How to ensure that, on any given day, a greatly disturbed white male person (in all but one of the last sixty-one such cases, we are dealing with males and they are virtually all Caucasians) will not explode and bring down several human beings in the process? Please tell me how?
First, have the will to start somewhere. Not dealing with the problem because it is of such magnitude and a solution won't happen overnight is a famously fallacious and readily exploited reason for doing nothing about it at all.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by piston » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:28 pm

Understood, and I assure you that I am not avoiding here. But there are certain topics where "timidity" has been the order of the day in American politics and gun control, as well as Israel's expansionist policies, both qualify. And, if I recall, on my thread on "Pigs for Palestine," you took that very timid road yourself.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by barney » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:34 am

It's natural to be emotional at such a time, and perhaps we say things we shouldn't. But Americans should know that the rest of the civilised world looks on in bewildered disbelief at your utterly insane gun laws. It seems to me - perhaps it wouldn't in the cold light of reason, when emotion dies down, but emotion is an important part of being human - that only moral monsters can support them. It's such a human fallibility to concentrate on rights and not responsibilities. The Constitution has been perverted for centuries - everyone knows it did not intend this. And there will be more fancy words, and the gun lobby will orchestrate its response and remind politicians of the debts they owe it, and nothing will change, and next year we will be mourning hundreds more of Americans killed unnecessarily.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:03 am

Tarantella wrote:God almighty, I cannot begin to imagine the terror for the students and the grief of their parents at this time. Who cares about commentary - let's all start thinking about the victims, which includes a lot of people one way or another. The list of atrocities on this thread is mind-numbing. I will certainly think about these people on my Christmas Day and may God bless them all.

Let's talk about cause and effect some other time.
In a country where we have a daily average of 32 murders, when do you suppose the appropriate time will be?
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:56 am

When they all occur simultaneously, at the one place, we call it "mass murder". In deference to and respect for the victims it is, IMO, not the right time to be indulging in recriminations. BTW, it takes more than one social sector to constitute a "society". Perhaps we have all allowed special interest/minority groups to control the political agenda for far too long. The old 'squeaky door which gets the most oil' is just as true today as it ever was - and we see this everywhere in action, every day. Every special interest group wants the society run its way. When things go pear-shaped people want a scapegoat - but it takes just as many, if not more, people to acquiesce for any minority group to achieve success. As Voltaire said, "the price of liberty is ETERNAL vigilance".

I think what we are witnessing is one of the consequences of unfettered individual rights versus the collective good.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:43 am

I'm with RebLem. The only time when some corrective action might be taken is immediately after the latest massacre of the innocents. Wait for some other time and the gun lobbyists will buy off the politicians, as they always do, and nothing will be done. To ask for delay is effectively to endorse the status quo.
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Teresa B » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:47 am

To take something of a Buddhist view here, I fear that until a majority of us can just "see" what is going on--that part of each of us dies with each of those children, that vast harm is done not just to strangers we don't know, but directly to us--we will not take action. Alas, human beings, especially people like pols who are in the pocket of the gun lobby, are all too blind to the truth.
:(
Teresa
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by lennygoran » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:58 am

Teresa B wrote:Alas, human beings, especially people like pols who are in the pocket of the gun lobby, are all too blind to the truth.
:(
Teresa
As I've said before Mayor Mike deserves credit--he's the most visible pol I know speaking out on this NRA control--I have a feeling Obama will say more on this issue now that the election is over--I sure hope so!

"Statement of Mayor’s Against Illegal Guns Co-Chair New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg:

“With all the carnage from gun violence in our country, it’s still almost impossible to believe that a mass shooting in a kindergarten class could happen. It has come to that. Not even kindergarteners learning their A,B,Cs are safe. We heard after Columbine that it was too soon to talk about gun laws. We heard it after Virginia Tech. After Tucson and Aurora and Oak Creek. And now we are hearing it again. For every day we wait, 34 more people are murdered with guns. Today, many of them were five-year olds. President Obama rightly sent his heartfelt condolences to the families in Newtown. But the country needs him to send a bill to Congress to fix this problem. Calling for ‘meaningful action’ is not enough. We need immediate action. We have heard all the rhetoric before. What we have not seen is leadership – not from the White House and not from Congress. That must end today. This is a national tragedy and it demands a national response. My deepest sympathies are with the families of all those affected, and my determination to stop this madness is stronger than ever.” " Regards, Len :(

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:15 pm

The mayor agrees with me, and he's right. If anything is going to be done, right now is the time to do it.
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:13 pm

My late father was a very smart man - an executive in a huge steel company - and he had to deal with industrial disasters quite regularly. He used to say there is seldom, if ever, one single cause to any accident/tragedy. Doubtless he would look at this shooting tragedy and make the same observation. Sure, take guns off the streets - that's one thing the country can do. Jbuck has already alluded to this: be certain there are many other forces at play in these kinds of scenarios and which are part of the culture. It's unpalatable to think about these, but until they too are addressed there will also be some psycho who wants to hurt lots of people. (Think Oklahoma and Timothy McVeigh.)

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:31 pm

Tarantella wrote:My late father was a very smart man - an executive in a huge steel company - and he had to deal with industrial disasters quite regularly. He used to say there is seldom, if ever, one single cause to any accident/tragedy. Doubtless he would look at this shooting tragedy and make the same observation. Sure, take guns off the streets - that's one thing the country can do. Jbuck has already alluded to this: be certain there are many other forces at play in these kinds of scenarios and which are part of the culture. It's unpalatable to think about these, but until they too are addressed there will also be some psycho who wants to hurt lots of people. (Think Oklahoma and Timothy McVeigh.)
You should send a job application to the National Rifle Association Division of Buying Congress, because you would make a great propagandist for there being reasons other than gun availability that make American psychopaths, mentally ill persons, and those who otherwise snap more dangerous than the same kinds of people in other countries.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:56 pm

Not just Americans - all people!! But isn't this discussion about your country just now? As I said, "unpalatable".

Merry Christmas to you too.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Guitarist » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:50 pm

I bet it wasn't "routine" to these grieving parents...

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And just think...many parents got to home to a Christmas tree, under which were unopened gifts for their dead child. A "routine" and Merry Christmas indeed.

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