American Massacres

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Tarantella
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:00 pm

Guitarist wrote:I bet it wasn't "routine" to these grieving parents...

Image

And just think...many parents got to home to a Christmas tree, under which were unopened gifts for their dead child. A "routine" and Merry Christmas indeed.
I couldn't agree more and have already made comments on this elsewhere. Who said this tragedy was "routine"? Those are your words. It's horrendous, to say the very least - horrendous.

Finding a solution to prevent this happening again is what we were discussing - and I've already suggested that this isn't the right time to be doing this either. Please read the rest of the comments on this thread.

In Australia we have had similar incidents and far too many murder suicides within families (I'm hearing of another one as I write this). And we have a no-guns policy.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Guitarist » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:19 am

Tarantella wrote:
Guitarist wrote:I bet it wasn't "routine" to these grieving parents...

Image

And just think...many parents got to home to a Christmas tree, under which were unopened gifts for their dead child. A "routine" and Merry Christmas indeed.
I couldn't agree more and have already made comments on this elsewhere. Who said this tragedy was "routine"? Those are your words.
Umm...try reading the title of this thread.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Guitarist » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:27 am

Newtown Shooting:The Victims

Charlotte Bacon, 6
Daniel Barden, 7
Olivia Engel, 6
Josephine Gay, 7
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
Dylan Hockley, 6
Madeleine Hsu, 6
Catherine Hubbard, 6
Chase Kowalski, 7
Jesse Lewis, 6
James Mattioli, 6
Grace McDonnell, 7
Emilie Parker, 6
Jack Pinto, 6
Noah Pozner, 6
Caroline Previdi, 6
Jessica Rekos, 6
Avielle Richman, 6
Benjamin Wheeler, 6
Allison Wyatt, 6
Rachel Davino, 29
Teacher
Dawn Hochsprung, 47
School principal
Nancy Lanza, 52
Mother of gunman
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
Teacher
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Teacher
Mary Sherlach, 56
School psychologist
Victoria Soto, 27
Teacher

John F
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:20 am

Sometimes real-life's ironies put classic tragedy to shame.

A Mother, a Gun Enthusiast and the First Victim
By MATT FLEGENHEIMER and RAVI SOMAIYA
Published: December 15, 2012

NEWTOWN, Conn. — Nancy Lanza loved guns, and often took her sons to one of the shooting ranges here in the suburbs northeast of New York City, where there is an active community of gun enthusiasts, her friends said. At a local bar, she sometimes talked about her gun collection.

It was one of her guns that was apparently used to take her life on Friday. Her killer was her son Adam Lanza, 20, who then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School, where he killed 26 more people, 20 of them small children, before shooting himself, the authorities said...

Investigators have linked Ms. Lanza to five weapons: two powerful handguns, two traditional hunting rifles and a semiautomatic rifle that is similar to weapons used by troops in Afghanistan. Her son took the two handguns and the semiautomatic rifle to the school. Law enforcement officials said they believed the guns were acquired legally and were registered...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyreg ... erous.html
John Francis

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by John F » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:48 am

Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: December 15, 2012

In the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can’t we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?

The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not that we have lunatics or criminals — all countries have them — but that we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.

Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.

So let’s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn’t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage.

American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips — but lawmakers don’t have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won’t stand up to the N.R.A.?

As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting, “It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun.”

Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can’t we be equally adult about regulating guns?

And don’t say that it won’t make a difference because crazies will always be able to get a gun. We’re not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.

Likewise, don’t bother with the argument that if more people carried guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it’s hard to see what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting.

The tragedy isn’t one school shooting, it’s the unceasing toll across our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can’t kill as many people without reloading.

We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with private sales. Let’s make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.

“We’ve endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,” President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He’s right, but the solution isn’t just to mourn the victims — it’s to change our policies. Let’s see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.

Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation’s conservative prime minister to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The “national firearms agreement,” as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.

The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely to be used in mass shootings.

In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings — but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.

Or we can look north to Canada. It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching for them.

For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.”

Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America’s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.

Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don’t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... -this.html
John Francis

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:25 am

John F wrote:Sometimes real-life's ironies put classic tragedy to shame.

A Mother, a Gun Enthusiast and the First Victim
By MATT FLEGENHEIMER and RAVI SOMAIYA
Published: December 15, 2012

NEWTOWN, Conn. — Nancy Lanza loved guns, and often took her sons to one of the shooting ranges here in the suburbs northeast of New York City, where there is an active community of gun enthusiasts, her friends said. At a local bar, she sometimes talked about her gun collection.

It was one of her guns that was apparently used to take her life on Friday. Her killer was her son Adam Lanza, 20, who then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School, where he killed 26 more people, 20 of them small children, before shooting himself, the authorities said...

Investigators have linked Ms. Lanza to five weapons: two powerful handguns, two traditional hunting rifles and a semiautomatic rifle that is similar to weapons used by troops in Afghanistan. Her son took the two handguns and the semiautomatic rifle to the school. Law enforcement officials said they believed the guns were acquired legally and were registered...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyreg ... erous.html
The problem may be that that what we could expect to get from national gun control legislation--something minimal like increased background checks, limits on purchases per month, and a ban on assault weapons--wouldn't have prevented this crime if it were already in place (it might have prevented some of the other massacres in recent years). The gun lobby and the legislators themselves (seeking an out without appearing as cowardly as they are) will doubtless use that as an excuse to resist passing even the kind of bill I just mentioned.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Teresa B
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Teresa B » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:51 am

Guitarist wrote:
Tarantella wrote:
Guitarist wrote:I bet it wasn't "routine" to these grieving parents...

Image

And just think...many parents got to home to a Christmas tree, under which were unopened gifts for their dead child. A "routine" and Merry Christmas indeed.
I couldn't agree more and have already made comments on this elsewhere. Who said this tragedy was "routine"? Those are your words.
Umm...try reading the title of this thread.
Yes, but come on, the title is ironic.
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

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Guitarist
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Guitarist » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:35 pm

Teresa B wrote:Yes, but come on, the title is ironic.
Probably, but with some members of this forum I'm not so sure.... :wink:

Oh my god...just when you think humanity can't sink any lower:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/12 ... -funerals/

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by RebLem » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:43 pm

Teresa B wrote:
Guitarist wrote:
Tarantella wrote:
Guitarist wrote:I bet it wasn't "routine" to these grieving parents...

Image

And just think...many parents got to home to a Christmas tree, under which were unopened gifts for their dead child. A "routine" and Merry Christmas indeed.
I couldn't agree more and have already made comments on this elsewhere. Who said this tragedy was "routine"? Those are your words.
Umm...try reading the title of this thread.
Yes, but come on, the title is ironic.
As the originator of the thread, I do want to point out that I did not begin the commentary on the Connecticut massacre. And, it does look like this one may not be a routine, ho-hum massacre. It looks like this one may lead to real action. Of course, the massacre of more people at Virginia Tech in 2007 did not result in much of anything lasting, but that involved killing people in their twenties, who apparently are regarded as already having lived rich and full lives and being ready for death. Almost like old people dying in a nursing home.

But you kill little kids, first graders, well, somehow, its more shocking to lose them to violence. I can't figure out why killing 32 people in the twenties is a ho hum event, but killing 20 six and seven year olds is shocking. If you looked at it in a coldly rational, Randian sort of way, the former should be more shocking because parents have spent a great deal of money raising their kids, only to have them killed just before the beginning of their productive lives.

I can't figure it out. Can any of you?
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:55 pm

RebLem wrote:But you kill little kids, first graders, well, somehow, its more shocking to lose them to violence. I can't figure out why killing 32 people in the twenties is a ho hum event, but killing 20 six and seven year olds is shocking.
For the same reason that children should be guaranteed access to health care but no one else, including the frequently poor parents on whom they depend to be raised properly, should.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Teresa B
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Teresa B » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:34 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
RebLem wrote:But you kill little kids, first graders, well, somehow, its more shocking to lose them to violence. I can't figure out why killing 32 people in the twenties is a ho hum event, but killing 20 six and seven year olds is shocking.
For the same reason that children should be guaranteed access to health care but no one else, including the frequently poor parents on whom they depend to be raised properly, should.
I'm taking this reply as ironic too, of course. There is no "valid" reason we ought to show any differentiation of shock levels at the murder of human beings of any age, at any time. If it should be elderly people, we can at least take some comfort in knowing they had a chance to live a decent life span. In the case of young people and children the tragedy is compounded by the fact that they were robbed of their chance to live their lives, and of course their parents--the people who felt most protective and fiercely loving of them--are now stricken with unimaginable grief mixed with every other emotion in the book.

As for 20-somethings vs 6-year-olds, there seems to be no rationale for any difference in action taken as a result of the tragedy. It would surely make no difference if it were your child. The only reason I can think of is that we see the cute innocence of 6-year-olds, and it tugs so much at our deepest need to nurture and protect helpless children, we just physiologically react even more strongly.

It's very hard to make sense of anything in any of these horrific killings, but if we're a day late and a dollar short, let's at least admit it and do something now.
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by BWV 1080 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:47 pm

I am more afraid of the reaction to this than any possible future mass killing. My wife had a cousin who attended Columbine high school shortly after the shootings there and he would describe how any deviation from rigid social norms and expression of anger or discontent was pathologized and turned into an omen of a future killing. These killings are not symptomatic of anything other than the alienating pressures to conform, particularly among the upper middle classes. Instead of any meaningful discussion of culture we will get a slew if bad legislation and policies that will merely perpetuate the core problem and further stigmatize those who don't fit into these contrived ideas of normality

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:09 pm

BWV 1080 wrote: These killings are not symptomatic of anything other than the alienating pressures to conform, particularly among the upper middle classes.
You know that this was what brought about this crime when no one at any level of expertise in anything has the slightest idea? On the face of it the notion is absurd. There are thousands upon thousands of youths in various stages of not being with an in crowd, sometimes to the point of some degree of (usually temporary) maladjustment. Saying that this explains such a crime makes about as much sense as saying that being a math genius (and some of them are a bit crazy, frankly) explains Theodore Kaczynski.

There is one development I am not looking forward to (I will not say that I "fear" it), and that is that every single school in the country is going to feel obliged to go through the process of examining its security precautions. I hope that most of them realize that there is not much they can do that they are not already doing (considering that this man forced his way into the school armed to the teeth), but as a substitute teacher I fully expect to encounter some new inconvenient and probably useless security measures designed to assuage fears. They will be expensive, inconvenient, and contrary to the happy and open learning atmosphere that schools need, and they will all be because we don't have, and probably won't have a "slew of [not bad] legislation" that would keep people who might do such a thing from easy access to the guns with which to do it.

(I hope that one thing that does come from this is that adults are trained not to approach or confront an obviously armed man even with the intent of protecting the children but rather to run the other way and call for help. That "heroic" school psychologist should herself have had her head examined.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by BWV 1080 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:17 pm

As an educator, jbuck, it is your responsibility to identify all the lonely isolated kids and flag them as potential threats.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:49 am

BWV 1080 wrote:As an educator, jbuck, it is your responsibility to identify all the lonely isolated kids and flag them as potential threats.
This is way too glib a statement. As a retired high-school teacher I've seen very disturbed kids - the type who would go into the "agriculture plot" on the weekend and slit the throats of sheep. (These boys were in my class). What did the school do about them? Nothing. Welfare, counselling, tapped on the wrist with a wet feather - there were no consequences for these kids UNTIL they stepped out into the real world and harmed others. I warned them, "if you live by violence there'll always be somebody meaner and bigger who wants to do you harm". How right that was, when one was king hit and died at 21. These boys loved guns and violence and they would have loved to belong to a terrorist organization!! But they learned their violence and aggression primarily from their parents - and pervasive popular culture and contact sport which celebrates aggression and violence. The school hierarchy turned them into victims and shielded them from the consequences of their behaviour. One 14 year old boy in another class arrived at school early one morning and switched the electrical wiring in the classroom power points - designed to kill the person who used it. I don't know how this was discovered because I arrived late to school that day. Anyway, the boy continued in my class - no suspension or consequences - and he spent the rest of his time dropping his pants, making lewd comments to girls or masturbating. NOBODY DID A THING. When I felt aggrieved I went straight to the police for assistance and they asked "what the hell is going on up at that school?" And this, friends, is a MAJOR part of these problems - nobody wants to take responsibility and act. Everybody is a victim. And this is part of the culture of the affluent western world which I'm totally OVER.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:45 am

Tarantella wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote:As an educator, jbuck, it is your responsibility to identify all the lonely isolated kids and flag them as potential threats.
This is way too glib a statement.
I doubt that Steve was serious--you have to know his sense of humor.

At the Catholic high school in Maryland where I taught, there were two boys around the time of the Columbine shooting who liked to wear long black coats before and after school (during school they wore uniforms), at the time taken as a sign of the kind of statement made by the kind of kid who might shoot up the school. It never occurred to me to worry about them because I knew them in context (one of them was on my Academic Bowl team), but it had other teachers upset enough to ask me to talk to them about their motives. Their motives were that they liked the coats. That was not being completely honest with me, of course, because they were trying to make some kind of statement, but potential school shooters they were not.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Teresa B » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:32 am

BWV 1080 wrote:I am more afraid of the reaction to this than any possible future mass killing. My wife had a cousin who attended Columbine high school shortly after the shootings there and he would describe how any deviation from rigid social norms and expression of anger or discontent was pathologized and turned into an omen of a future killing. These killings are not symptomatic of anything other than the alienating pressures to conform, particularly among the upper middle classes. Instead of any meaningful discussion of culture we will get a slew if bad legislation and policies that will merely perpetuate the core problem and further stigmatize those who don't fit into these contrived ideas of normality
When I suggested something be done, I wasn't talking about further stigmatizing anyone, but meaningful discussions, as you mention, and a look at gun laws. Of course there is always overreaction, because we humans seem to be very adept at reacting to immediate events with wrong-headed thinking. I'm not sure your premise of the killings being solely related to pressures to conform to societal norms. There have always been societal norms and people who were "outsiders". What causes all the other "outsiders" not to behave in such a manner? And let's face it, they can't kill with a gun if they don't have one.
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by BWV 1080 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:40 am

Tarantella wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote:As an educator, jbuck, it is your responsibility to identify all the lonely isolated kids and flag them as potential threats.
This is way too glib a statement. As a retired high-school teacher I've seen very disturbed kids - the type who would go into the "agriculture plot" on the weekend and slit the throats of sheep. (These boys were in my class). What did the school do about them? Nothing. Welfare, counselling, tapped on the wrist with a wet feather - there were no consequences for these kids UNTIL they stepped out into the real world and harmed others. I warned them, "if you live by violence there'll always be somebody meaner and bigger who wants to do you harm". How right that was, when one was king hit and died at 21. These boys loved guns and violence and they would have loved to belong to a terrorist organization!! But they learned their violence and aggression primarily from their parents - and pervasive popular culture and contact sport which celebrates aggression and violence. The school hierarchy turned them into victims and shielded them from the consequences of their behaviour. One 14 year old boy in another class arrived at school early one morning and switched the electrical wiring in the classroom power points - designed to kill the person who used it. I don't know how this was discovered because I arrived late to school that day. Anyway, the boy continued in my class - no suspension or consequences - and he spent the rest of his time dropping his pants, making lewd comments to girls or masturbating. NOBODY DID A THING. When I felt aggrieved I went straight to the police for assistance and they asked "what the hell is going on up at that school?" And this, friends, is a MAJOR part of these problems - nobody wants to take responsibility and act. Everybody is a victim. And this is part of the culture of the affluent western world which I'm totally OVER.
Well boys will be boys, I am sure that kid went on to be a successful banker at Macquarie. you should not have let all that distract you from the real threat which was that quiet kid with the glasses who always sat by himself in the lunchroom

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:11 am

BWV 1080 wrote:
Tarantella wrote:
BWV 1080 wrote:As an educator, jbuck, it is your responsibility to identify all the lonely isolated kids and flag them as potential threats.
This is way too glib a statement. As a retired high-school teacher I've seen very disturbed kids - the type who would go into the "agriculture plot" on the weekend and slit the throats of sheep. (These boys were in my class). What did the school do about them? Nothing. Welfare, counselling, tapped on the wrist with a wet feather - there were no consequences for these kids UNTIL they stepped out into the real world and harmed others. I warned them, "if you live by violence there'll always be somebody meaner and bigger who wants to do you harm". How right that was, when one was king hit and died at 21. These boys loved guns and violence and they would have loved to belong to a terrorist organization!! But they learned their violence and aggression primarily from their parents - and pervasive popular culture and contact sport which celebrates aggression and violence. The school hierarchy turned them into victims and shielded them from the consequences of their behaviour. One 14 year old boy in another class arrived at school early one morning and switched the electrical wiring in the classroom power points - designed to kill the person who used it. I don't know how this was discovered because I arrived late to school that day. Anyway, the boy continued in my class - no suspension or consequences - and he spent the rest of his time dropping his pants, making lewd comments to girls or masturbating. NOBODY DID A THING. When I felt aggrieved I went straight to the police for assistance and they asked "what the hell is going on up at that school?" And this, friends, is a MAJOR part of these problems - nobody wants to take responsibility and act. Everybody is a victim. And this is part of the culture of the affluent western world which I'm totally OVER.
Well boys will be boys, I am sure that kid went on to be a successful banker at Macquarie. you should not have let all that distract you from the real threat which was that quiet kid with the glasses who always sat by himself in the lunchroom
I doubt it. The 'quiet kid' was the one who left our comprehensive school and went on to a private school because he wanted to play the violin or read books without being bullied because he was "different". No, the real threat came from the students I've previously mentioned. These kids exhibit 'marker' behaviours from quite an early age - anti-social, destructive behaviours which nobody, repeat nobody, wants to sanction.

Jbuck makes a good point about the boys wearing their unusual coats. My eldest son did that sort of thing, along with his group of friends. They bought Siberian army coats from a disposal store (and our weather is 35 celsius in summer - the phase soon died out!!).

How about dealing with problem students who offend there and then? The 'real threat' is the ingrained RIGHTS which people have - which prevent meaningful discussion of CONSEQUENCES, much less any substantive enforcement of same. As I've said earlier, tragedies usually have multiple causes - seldom, if ever, one.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by lennygoran » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:43 am

Gee the twists coming out of this tragedy get worse and worse:

" Her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters at her Illinois home that her gun-obsessed relative was part of the ‘prepper’ movement that fears an economic collapse will lead to a breakdown in society.

“She prepared for the worst,” Ms Lanza said.

“Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping — are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

Nancy Lanza (52) had five registered firearms, had begun stockpiling food and taught Adam how to shoot. He is believed to have used three of her guns — a Bushmaster .223-calibre, and two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9mm — in the school massacre after he shot her dead in bed."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 51468.html

Regards, Len :(

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Cosima___J » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:13 pm

I am very much disturbed that the TV news broadcasts have spent their entire programs for the past several days on this massacre. The public should definitely be informed about such a horrenduous event. But to focus endlessly on the tragedy will give other sicko people in our society the idea that they might ought to grab the spotlight of media attention (something they so desparately want) and kill 30 people (in order to top the 26 killed this time). Then, when that happens, the next sicko will aim for 40. I just think the media is making a serious mistake in giving the massacre way too much publicity.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:35 pm

Cosima___J wrote:I am very much disturbed that the TV news broadcasts have spent their entire programs for the past several days on this massacre. The public should definitely be informed about such a horrenduous event. But to focus endlessly on the tragedy will give other sicko people in our society the idea that they might ought to grab the spotlight of media attention (something they so desparately want) and kill 30 people (in order to top the 26 killed this time). Then, when that happens, the next sicko will aim for 40. I just think the media is making a serious mistake in giving the massacre way too much publicity.
I can't think of a mass murder in which the coverage prompted a copycat act. I sure hope this isn't the first.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Cosima___J » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:59 pm

I can't think of a mass murder that has gotten this much air time on TV. Yes, the Gabby Giffords shooting got a certain amount of coverage, but not as much as this latest event is getting. And also, it may take some time for all of this to percolate in a pshcho's brain. It might take some time to plan, to get the semi-automatic weapons etc. Just because another horrible incident doesn't occur in the next few weeks or months does not mean this wall-to-wall coverage isn't sinking in and gestating in a disturbed mind.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:12 pm

Cosima___J wrote:I can't think of a mass murder that has gotten this much air time on TV. Yes, the Gabby Giffords shooting got a certain amount of coverage, but not as much as this latest event is getting. And also, it may take some time for all of this to percolate in a pshcho's brain. It might take some time to plan, to get the semi-automatic weapons etc. Just because another horrible incident doesn't occur in the next few weeks or months does not mean this wall-to-wall coverage isn't sinking in and gestating in a disturbed mind.
I swear, the things you worry about. :wink:

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Cosima___J » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:19 pm

Well, I worry about you ----- even if you are a lefty, pinko Commie. :lol:




Just kidding (about the pinko Commie bit)

Aren't you a teacher?

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by josé echenique » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:16 pm

lennygoran wrote:Gee the twists coming out of this tragedy get worse and worse:

" Her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters at her Illinois home that her gun-obsessed relative was part of the ‘prepper’ movement that fears an economic collapse will lead to a breakdown in society.

“She prepared for the worst,” Ms Lanza said.

“Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping — are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

Nancy Lanza (52) had five registered firearms, had begun stockpiling food and taught Adam how to shoot. He is believed to have used three of her guns — a Bushmaster .223-calibre, and two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9mm — in the school massacre after he shot her dead in bed."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 51468.html

Regards, Len :(
<“She prepared for the worst,” Ms Lanza said.>

I don´t think she even IMAGINED what the "worst" was going to be Lenny, and besides...
It´s not the ECONOMY stupid!

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by lennygoran » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:27 pm

>I don´t think she even IMAGINED what the "worst" was going to be Lenny, and besides...
It´s not the ECONOMY stupid!<

Jose gotta agree with you! Len

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:19 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:I am sure that kid went on to be a successful banker at Macquarie.
Afterthoughts: Institutions like Macquarie always want 'team players' to work for them. Also, I'm a shareholder of that bank and want it to go on making very healthy profits.

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:54 pm

"CNN has not been able to independently confirm whether Lanza was diagnosed with autism or Asperger's, a higher-functioning form of autism. Both are developmental disorders, not mental illnesses."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connec ... index.html

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Re: Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre

Post by Tarantella » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:07 pm

Honestly, I think it perfectly understandable that people would want to try and comprehend the nature of evil and this has eluded mankind for centuries and will continue to do so.

Meanwhile, there are some things which can be done: remove guns from the streets (although we've done that here in Australia and there are still tons of illegal weapons out there!); enforce some kind of censorship on film and internet which glorifies and romanticizes violence and aggression: spend money on social services to help distressed, disconnected families; provide meaningful and substantial consequences for law breakers (maybe you already do this better than we do!); put security fences around schools and educational institutions and provide additional security; identify troubled individuals and put them through the mental health system (in our country 'human rights' have seen patients de-institutionalized and roaming the streets, making their own decisions about whether or not they'll TAKE THEIR MEDICATION!); conduct a national discussion about RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES; hold a compulsory national plebiscite to overturn the Constitutional 'right' to bear arms; provide meaningful and perceivable sanctions against violence in sport; make voting compulsory for Presidential and Congressional to ensure that it's not just the NRA which is doing all the voting!!

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Re: American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:40 pm

In response to popular demand, I have changed the name of this thread from "Another routine, ho-hum, all-American massacre" to, more simply, American Massacres. I hope everone approves.
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Re: American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:22 am

Four dead, three police hurt in Pennsylvania shootings

By Drew Singer | Reuters | December 21, 2012

PHILADELPHIA--
A man with a pistol fatally shot three people on Friday in rural western Pennsylvania, one of them in a church, before he was killed in a shootout with state troopers as he tried to flee in a pickup truck, authorities said.

Three state troopers also were injured in their confrontation with the gunman in Frankstown Township, about 100 miles east of Pittsburgh, shortly after 9 a.m. EST (1400 GMT), state police said.

The violence in Pennsylvania unfolded as bells tolled and many Americans were observing a moment of silence for the 20 children and six adults shot to death one week ago by a gunman at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut.

The Newtown shooter, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, also shot his mother to death at their home before going on his rampage, which ended with his suicide and has reignited a national debate over gun control.

The National Rifle Association pro-gun lobby marked the occasion on Friday with a statement urging that armed guards be placed at the nation's schools to improve security.

Friday evening, investigators were still piecing together events behind the deadly shootings in Pennsylvania.

"We don't believe it was a domestic dispute, but we also don't know a motive, because the shooter was not related to any of the victims," trooper David McGarvey, a state police spokesman, said hours after the unexplained slayings.

In fairly rapid succession, the gunman shot and killed a woman inside a church, then fatally shot two men at their respective homes - all within a short distance from each other - before trying to flee in his pickup truck.

He opened fire at two state police patrol cars rushing to the scene as he passed them on a two-lane road and slammed head-on into a third patrol car. The gunman was killed in an exchange of gunfire with police at the crash scene, McGarvey said.

The identities of the gunman and his victims were being withheld until their next of kin were all notified, he said.

All three troopers involved in the chase were injured - one from the collision, one hit in the face by bullet fragments and shattered glass, and one who was shot in the chest but survived thanks to a bullet-proof vest. All three were treated and released from a local hospital, McGarvey said.

Another state police spokesman, trooper Adam Reed, said earlier it did not appear that the shooting had any connection to events last week in Connecticut, but added, "that's all still being looked into."

Reporting by Drew Singer and Daniel Trotta; Additional reporting and writing by Steve Gorman; Editing by Sandra Maler, Alden Bentley, Gary Hill.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/ ... Y520121222
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Re: American Massacres

Post by Modernistfan » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:18 pm

The head of the NRA is way off base calling for armed guards in schools. What most liberals cannot acknowledge, however, is that he was 100% right in blaming the entertainment industry for a culture of violence. In fact, the ethics (or lack of ethics) pushed by the entertainment industry go way beyond the issue of violence.

Some years ago, after the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles (which really had little to do with the verdict in that case), I confronted a rabbi of a Reform congregration in Brentwood, an area of Los Angeles where many people who work in the entertainment industry live, and many attend that congregation. I told him that the entertainment industry has been pushing values that could be summarized as follows: "Hard work is for chumps and saps. Education is for sissies and wimps. No one else has any rights you are bound to respect. The only way to resolve a dispute is through force, the more force, the better. If you see something that someone else has that you want, take it." I said that values like those had a lot to do with the riots and that it was the responsibility of religious leaders who lead congregations that have a considerable number of leaders in the entertainment industry as members, including his own congregation, to bring these issues up and attempt to have the entertainment industry change course. He looked shocked and totally taken aback.

That was in 1992. If anything, things have gotten far worse since that time. It is extremely rare to see a movie or TV show in which educated people are seen as behaving in ways that educated people normally behave (including, of course, listening to or enjoying classical music). In general, if you see someone who is educated or enjoys things that educated people enjoy, that person is generally ridiculed or depicted as a target for bullying or even physical violence. The level of violence in movies has increased exponentially since that time, undoubtedly due to the greater sophistication of computer-generated or computer-modified special effects (what a waste of computing power!).

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Re: American Massacres

Post by barney » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:51 pm

As I have said, the American love affair with guns baffles me. Are Americans more violent than everyone else? No. Are they stupider? No, Are they less respectful of other people? No. Well,what are they? Better armed. Excellent piece in my paper today, reprinted below, points out that before Australia introduced much tougher gun laws we had 13 massacres (defined as 4 deaths) in 18 years. In the 16 years since, how many? 0.
How is it that creeps and moral pygmies like the spokesman for the NRA get taken so seriously? If I had his sort of mind I would launch a campaign targeting leaders of the NRA. Get rid of a dozen or two, and we might get a change in priorities.
Here's the article:

JANE CARO

LAST Saturday, my 24-year-old daughter rang me and told me the story of 27-year-old Victoria Soto, the teacher who shielded her class of five- and six-year-olds by hiding them in a cupboard during the appalling massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.

She lied to the gunman, telling him her class was in the gym, knowing full well that he would then shoot her. Which he did.

I cried as my daughter told me the story, and when she had finished telling me all about the wonderful Ms Soto, I said this to her: ''You are never to do anything like that.''

You see, my daughter is a teacher. That is where the resemblance ends, fortunately. She is an English and drama teacher in a public high school in western Sydney, and our gun-death and mass-killing statistics confirm that she and her colleagues are many times safer here than any of her peers in the United States.
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It is highly unlikely that she would ever have to face the terrible reality that confronted Victoria Soto and the five other staff members who died trying to protect their students.

For this we have John Howard to thank. Which I do, unequivocally. Prior to 1996, far too many Australians had to deal with the grief and terror that accompanies an armed man shooting at people with high-powered weapons.

We had 13 massacres in 18 years before Port Arthur. (A massacre is defined by the number of people killed: to earn the chilling epithet, four or more people must lose their lives.) Since Howard's prompt and decisive action after the deaths of 35 people at the hands of one Tasmanian gunman, Australia has not had another massacre. I will repeat that: in 16 years there has not been a single massacre.

The shooting at Monash University by a mentally ill student in 2002 does not qualify as a massacre because, tragic though any loss of life is, only two people were killed.

What Howard did after 1996 was tighten gun laws considerably, particularly by banning civilians from owning assault-style weapons and instituting a gun buyback scheme that saw 640,000 weapons destroyed. The new rules also made it harder to qualify to own any kind of gun and to own more than one.

The effect of this sane response to the murder and mayhem that disturbed individuals can cause when they get access to high-powered weapons has been profound. The chances of an Australian dying of a gunshot wound - any kind of gunshot wound, not just those in a massacre - have been halved. Many more Australians are alive because of Howard's actions than otherwise would have been. Perhaps some are teachers. Perhaps some of them are children.

Gun crime has not disappeared, of course. Just as random breath-testing has not completely eradicated drink-driving or car accidents, but has nonetheless lowered the road toll, Australia's tighter gun laws have also lowered the death toll and equally dramatically.

The evidence is clear and compelling. Any attempt by any group in the face of such evidence to relax restrictions on gun ownership or access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons should be seen for what it is: a direct threat to the safety of all members of the community.

I am very grateful that my daughter teaches in a school in Australia. Because while I am sure many other parents watched the desperately sad scenes unfold in Newtown and cried over the stories of heroism and sacrifice as I did, and shuddered to think of their own children in such a situation, our strong gun laws make that so unlikely as to be literally not worth worrying about.

We can push that fear out of our minds with realistic confidence. It is not impossible - nothing in life is impossible - but it is highly unlikely.

The same is not true for parents in the US, whether their children be students, teachers or merely Batman fans enjoying a night out at the cinema.

The likelihood of Americans tightening their gun laws in the way Howard did here is tragically remote for all sorts of reasons. The strength of the National Rifle Association, the second amendment in the US constitution, the plethora of state laws, and the astronomical number of guns already circulating in the community make such a task much more difficult.

It is positive to see President Barack Obama ask Vice-President Joe Biden to head a committee to look at ways to reduce gun violence, and it is important to wish them well.

It is also important to remind ourselves that we need to look at the evidence when we create public policy, particularly public policy that may save lives.

Australia's experience is strong evidence that tightening access to guns, particularly assault weapons, and reducing the number of guns in the community, works.

There is absolutely no evidence that arming teachers will protect students. There may well be evidence to the contrary. I doubt there is a teacher in America who wants to carry a gun at school. They are teachers, not armed guards.

There is also no evidence that there are more nutjobs in the US than elsewhere or that their culture is somehow more violent or aggressive than the culture here or in Britain. (Britain has one of the lowest rates of gun deaths in the world).

What is demonstrably different is the astonishing ease with which really dangerous weapons can be bought in the US compared with just about anywhere else.

I am tremendously proud that my daughter is a teacher. She is brilliant at it and loves her work. If we lived in the US, I would do everything I could to stop her being one.

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Re: American Massacres

Post by John F » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:53 am

Modernistfan wrote:The head of the NRA is way off base calling for armed guards in schools. What most liberals cannot acknowledge, however, is that he was 100% right in blaming the entertainment industry for a culture of violence. In fact, the ethics (or lack of ethics) pushed by the entertainment industry go way beyond the issue of violence.
The "entertainment industry" doesn't create the way its customers think and feel. Rather, it recognizes and exploits what the customers already think and feel. How else could it attract tens of millions of people to pay money to buy its products? And not just in the U.S.; the market for American entertainment is world-wide.

And by the way, murderous violence in works of entertainment is nothing new. One of the earliest literary works in western civilization is about rage and violence - the Iliad; a review of a new translation says, "Hollywood’s violence is merely a weak imitation of what the Greeks recited for centuries." In the last scene of Shakespeare's "Hamlet," the stage is strewn with the dead and dying. The turning point of Pushkin's "Eugene Onegin" is a duel in which Onegin shoots Lensky to death - by an author who himself was killed in a duel, the 22nd he fought. If life imitated art, why don't people fight duels today? Because despite the supposed influence of works of entertainment, dueling has been made illegal, and it's illegal because in the 20th century, people decided that dueling is not a romantic expression of a man's honor but simply murder.

The methods of the mass murderers may imitate what they've seen or read about, in fiction or in the news, but their motives and the impetus to act are their own. No, the violence in today's movies, video games, etc. much as I deplore it, is an effect rather than a cause.

What is a cause, in the United States, and despite what the gun people would have us believe, is the proliferation in private hands of guns capable of mass murder at the twitch of a finger. In states with loose gun control laws and high rates of gun ownership, the number of deaths by firearms is higher. Can anyone be surprised at that? While it's impossible to change the motives of those who deliberately shoot people, it is possible beyond any reasonable doubt - if the people have the will - to reduce the carnage by taking away their weapons of mass destruction, or rendering them harmless by banning the ammunition.
John Francis

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Re: American Massacres

Post by barney » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:48 am

John F wrote:
Modernistfan wrote:The head of the NRA is way off base calling for armed guards in schools. What most liberals cannot acknowledge, however, is that he was 100% right in blaming the entertainment industry for a culture of violence. In fact, the ethics (or lack of ethics) pushed by the entertainment industry go way beyond the issue of violence.
The "entertainment industry" doesn't create the way its customers think and feel. Rather, it recognizes and exploits what the customers already think and feel. How else could it attract tens of millions of people to pay money to buy its products? And not just in the U.S.; the market for American entertainment is world-wide.

And by the way, murderous violence in works of entertainment is nothing new. One of the earliest literary works in western civilization is about rage and violence - the Iliad; a review of a new translation says, "Hollywood’s violence is merely a weak imitation of what the Greeks recited for centuries." In the last scene of Shakespeare's "Hamlet," the stage is strewn with the dead and dying. The turning point of Pushkin's "Eugene Onegin" is a duel in which Onegin shoots Lensky to death - by an author who himself was killed in a duel, the 22nd he fought. If life imitated art, why don't people fight duels today? Because despite the supposed influence of works of entertainment, dueling has been made illegal, and it's illegal because in the 20th century, people decided that dueling is not a romantic expression of a man's honor but simply murder.

The methods of the mass murderers may imitate what they've seen or read about, in fiction or in the news, but their motives and the impetus to act are their own. No, the violence in today's movies, video games, etc. much as I deplore it, is an effect rather than a cause.

What is a cause, in the United States, and despite what the gun people would have us believe, is the proliferation in private hands of guns capable of mass murder at the twitch of a finger. In states with loose gun control laws and high rates of gun ownership, the number of deaths by firearms is higher. Can anyone be surprised at that? While it's impossible to change the motives of those who deliberately shoot people, it is possible beyond any reasonable doubt - if the people have the will - to reduce the carnage by taking away their weapons of mass destruction, or rendering them harmless by banning the ammunition.
I think that is a fine summary. I repeat the statistic in my previous post. 13 gun massacres in Australia in 18 years, followed by legislation for tighter controls and a gun buy-back, followed by 16 years with no massacres at all. Cause and effect? Hard not to think it's relevant.

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Re: American Massacres

Post by Modernistfan » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:36 pm

I don't see having the entertainment industry take a good hard look at the values it is pushing (and not just the use of violence) and gun control as mutually exclusive. I am a strong supporter of gun control. At the very least, I want assault weapons banned and, if necessary confiscated, an end to the gun show loophole, a ban on the sale of large-capacity magazines, and limits on the sale of ammunition to what is reasonably needed for hunting, target shooting, or protection of one's life and property.

It has been pointed out that, regarding the Second Amendment, the weapons known to the framers of the Constitution were basically smoothbore muzzle-loading flintlock muskets or shotguns, and that these firearms were only capable of firing a single shot at once and took some time to reload (the powder and the bullet had to be loaded separately), even for an experienced soldier. The first practical weapon capable of firing multiple shots, the famous Colt "six-shooter," did not come into use until at least the 1830's. There were no large-capacity magazines or semiautomatic weapons.

I also accept that many important stories, such as movies depicting the Holocaust or other events of World War II (just to name one example), will involve violence, and it is no more reasonable that a movie such as "The Longest Day," based on the Normandy invasion, would not have war scenes than it would have been for a movie such as "Seabiscuit" to not show horse races. I have read both the Iliad and the Odyssey (unfortunately, in an Engiish translation and not in the original ancient Greek) and realize the violence there. That having been said, much of the violence in many entertainment vehicles seems gratuitous and divorced from its consequences, and is there for shock value only. Please also note that I referred to other viewpoints being pushed by much of the entertainment industry, including rampant anti-education sentiment and anti-intellectualism, and not just the promotion of violence.

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Re: American Massacres

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:19 pm

I haven't read every word here on this business about violence in otherwise harmless forms of entertainment, but I would like to point out, as I'm sure all posters here my age or older know, that this issue was raised about westerns and even (seriously) the old Warner Brothers cartoons. People who have studied this long ago concluded that there is a near-universal cognitive disconnect between fantasy violence and real life. Anyone who doesn't experience fantasy violence that way but allows it to overlap with real-life thinking has a screw loose, which just puts the matter back into the category of mental illness, psychopathy, or what have you. As has been said in some recent commentaries, we cannot legislate against mental illness, but we can legislate against guns.

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Re: American Massacres

Post by John F » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:21 pm

Modernistfan wrote:I have read both the Iliad and the Odyssey (unfortunately, in an Engiish translation and not in the original ancient Greek) and realize the violence there. That having been said, much of the violence in many entertainment vehicles seems gratuitous and divorced from its consequences, and is there for shock value only.
That too is nothing new. Not just Shakespeare but the Elizabethan dramatists in general loaded up their non-comedies with death and violence, and indeed chose revenge stories and the like that lent themselves to this, and these shows were very popular. Death and violence don't just shock, which is a negative sensation; they thrill many people, which gives a kind of pleasure, not just mental but physical. Then as now many go to horror movies and thrillers - and ride on roller coasters - for the thrill of it.

No doubt some people shoot and kill others for the thrill of it too. But they are a tiny and grossly atypical part of the population, and such feelings are defined as a personality disorder, or madness if you like. If violent movies and video games really could turn psychologically normal people into mass murderers, then what with all the guns out there, we'd have tens of millions of mass murders in America, not the occasional scattered incidents we do have. And thank heaven for that!
John Francis

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Re: American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:31 pm

I haven't posted anything about the Spengler killings before now because it looked like he had killed "only" two people besides himself, and my criterion for a massacre is at least three people dead other than the perp. However, evidence mounts, but is not yet conclusive, that he murdered his own sister, too, whose dead body was found in the house they shared, bringing the number of dead, to my satisfaction, at least, up to the requisite number. RebLem

N.Y. Firefighter Shooting Update: Body found in home of gunman William Spengler

By Crimesider Staff | CBS/AP | December 26, 2012 8:52 AM

WEBSTER, N.Y. --
Police have found a body inside the charred remains of the home of the New York man who police say shot and killed two firefighters and injured two more early on Christmas Eve.

William Spengler, 62, who served 17 years in prison for manslaughter in the 1980 hammer slaying of his grandmother, set his house afire before dawn on Dec. 24, before taking a revolver, a shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle to a sniper position outside, Police Chief Gerald Pickering said.

Police revealed that a body believed to be the killer's 67-year-old sister, Cheryl Spengler, was found in his fire-ravaged home.

Authorities say Spengler sprayed bullets at the first responders, killing two firefighters and injuring two others who remained hospitalized Tuesday in stable condition, awake and alert and expected to survive. He then killed himself as seven houses burned on a sliver of land along Lake Ontario.

Pickering said it was unclear whether the person believed to be Spengler's sister died before or during the fire.

"It was a raging inferno in there," Pickering said.

A next-door neighbor said Spengler hated his sister and they lived on opposite sides of the house.

Roger Vercruysse said Spengler loved his mother, Arline, who died in October after living with her son and daughter in the house in a neighborhood of seasonal and year-round homes across the road from a lakeshore popular with recreational boaters.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... -spengler/
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: American Massacres

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:59 pm

Well, he shot two others with the intent to kill them and, like the guy in Connecticut, would have continued shooting if he had not been put off it by the first police respondent. The distinction is pretty technical. But if one insists that there have been deaths of a certain number, there is this gruesome situation:

From USA Today, December 19, 2012:

Mass killers target Americans once every two weeks on average, in attacks that range from robberies to horrific public shooting sprees like the massacre Friday of 27 people in Newtown, Conn., a USA TODAY examination found.

Using news accounts and FBI records from 2006 through 2010, the most recent years for which complete records were available, USA TODAY identified 156 murders that met the FBI definitions of mass killings, where four or more people were killed.

All told, the attacks killed 774 people, including at least 161 young children.

The review offers perhaps the most current, complete picture yet of a crime that is both frighteningly common and not widely understood.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... n/1778303/

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Tarantella
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Re: American Massacres

Post by Tarantella » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:20 pm

RebLem wrote:
William Spengler, 62, who served 17 years in prison for manslaughter in the 1980 hammer slaying of his grandmother, set his house afire before dawn on Dec. 24, before taking a revolver, a shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle to a sniper position outside, Police Chief Gerald Pickering said.


This is the problem I have: if you're going to give a 17 year sentence to a psychotic butcher like this, then release him back into the community with weapons, you can expect an outcome like this. Since when is 17 years adequate for the first crime? If capital punishment was available here there would now be 3 more people alive. When they're dead they don't re-offend. The recidivism rate for vicious offenders seems to be appalling in both our countries. Which is the more civilized: let them out to do it again or deal with them once and for all? I know which I'd prefer.

We've had a spate of vicious killings here recently from "rehabilitated" offenders. Until the criminal legal system (we won't call it "justice") is sued by somebody for breach of duty of care to the community this insanity will continue to blight the society.

RebLem
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Re: American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:21 am

Aurora Massacre II--the Sequel

Four dead inside Aurora home, including gunman shot by police

Denver Post | Posted Jan 05, 2013

Four people were killed this morning including a gunman who held police at bay for several hours in an Aurora townhome. Aurora SWAT team members shot the gunman after he went to a second-floor window and fired a gun at police. The gunman fatally shot two men and a woman, police say. One woman jumped from an upstairs back window, ran from the home and called police just before 3 a.m., said Cassidee Carlson, Aurora police spokeswoman. The woman told police officers that she saw three “lifeless” bodies in the home. The woman was not injured by the jump or by gunshots. The identities of the victims and the gunmen have not been released.

http://photos.denverpost.com/2013/01/05 ... by-police/

I have to wonder what the devil is going on, as it is already 19 hours after the shooting and we know far less about this shooting than we usually do at this point. Wikipedia has already established an article on this shooting. They say the names of neither the perpetrator or the victims have been officially released, as do all the press accounts I have found, though the authorities have confirmed the victims to be two men and one woman, all of whom may have been related to the shooter. RebLem
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

RebLem
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Re: American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:24 am

Sonny Archuleta named as Aurora shooting suspect — family has history of gun violence

By RYOT staff, RYOT News | January 5, 2013 at 4:31 pm in U.S.

Another tragic shooting has rocked the town of Aurora, Colorado, where 12 people were killed in a movie theater last year. Today news emerged of a gunman barricaded inside a townhouse who fired shots at police from a second-story window before he was killed when SWAT officers stormed the home Saturday. Once inside, they found the bodies of three other adults, authorities said.

A neighbor has named the suspected gunman as 33-year-old Sonny Archuleta. Police officers also used this name while negotiating with the suspect via bullhorn, according to the Asscoiated Press. As this story develops, RYOT has discovered new details about the suspected shooter.

A devout Christian, Archuleta regularly attended a local church and posted frequently about his faith on twitter. There are no clues that point to him being disturbed. His last tweet, just two days ago, talks about some music he downloaded.

It is reported that his wife managed to escape from the home as he opened fire on other relatives. According to one police source he was characterized to police at the scene as being mentally ill. Police are also investigating the possibility that Archuleta was using methamphetamines and he is said to have stayed up “four days straight” before the incident.

According to Colorado state records, Archuleta had three previous weapons charges, including a prohibited use of a weapon in 2004 and carrying a concealed weapon in Denver in June.

One clue might be connected to this latest tragedy. On September 5th of last year, Archuleta tweeted about the murder of his brother, Pat, who was shot and killed at a local restaurant in Denver on September 3, 2012. It seems that gun violence affected Archuleta’s life last year and could be related to a downward spiral leading up to today’s tragedy.

http://www.ryot.org/sonny-archuleta-nei ... ence/46394
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

RebLem
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Re: American Massacres

Post by RebLem » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:55 am

4 women shot to death at Tulsa apartment complex

BY KENDRICK MARSHALL & JERRY WOFFORD | Tulsa World | Tuesday, January 08, 2013

Tulsa police were conducting an "exhaustive search" to "determine the motive and develop suspects" in the slayings of four women who were found shot to death in a Tulsa apartment Monday afternoon, Sgt. Dave Walker said late Monday.

The women were pronounced dead at an apartment in the Fairmont Terrace complex in the 1100 block of East 60th Street. Police also found a 4-year-old boy in the apartment. The child did not appear to have any physical injuries and was taken into protective custody, police said.

Emergency officials were called to the scene about 12:35 p.m. after someone went to the apartment to check on the residents and found the bodies inside. Tulsa Police Officer Leland Ashley said he could not say whether the women knew each other or were related. They were in their late teens to early 20s, police said. Walker reported shortly before 9 p.m. Monday that all four women had been identified. However, he did not release their names to the media. Police said they think someone was in contact with at least one of the victims in the hour before the deaths were discovered, which indicates the deaths occurred within that short window of time, Ashley said. No one had called the police to report hearing shots in the area before the bodies were found, he said.

Ashley said the magnitude of the crime itself and the fact that a child was at the scene make the homicides concerning. "It's not every day you see something like this in the city of Tulsa," he said. "It's very tragic for one life to be lost, but to have four lost in the same day at the same scene - it's very gut-wrenching."

Larry Powell, who identified himself as the father of one of the victims, had a difficult time coming to grips with news of her death. "I can't believe it," Powell said. "I just talked to her two days ago."

Tulsa County land records list the apartment complex, which accepts tenants using federal "Section 8" housing assistance, as being owned since 2005 by two limited liability corporations. DK Ukiah Properties LLC and 1574 Pacific LLC were both registered as companies in Oklahoma in 2005, shortly before purchasing the property from another company. A 2006 agreement filed with the Tulsa County Clerk's Office indicates that the owners each held half of the property. Constance Reynolds of Alameda, Calif., is listed as the sole member and manager of 1574 Pacific LLC, while Doug Solis of Mendocino County, Calif., is listed as managing member of DK Ukiah Properties LLC.

The apartment complex was the scene of two slayings last year. Quincy D. Jones, 24, was fatally shot inside a unit on Aug. 25. On Sept. 27, Robert Max Long was shot to death during an apparent drug-related robbery.

"This is the worst it has been," complex resident Victor Vasilio said of the surge in violence within the complex within the last half year. "I've never had any problems with anyone. I try to keep to myself."

Vasilio, who said his son is a playmate of the 4-year-old boy who was with the bodies, believes the complex is safe despite the several high-profile crimes on its grounds. Alex Guess, a Fairmont Terrace resident for less than year, said she's observed an increase in security and police presence in response to various incidents there. Resident Tyler Spaulding explained that tenants and visitors are required to present identification before entering through security gates.

Other residents, including Gail Barton, a friend of the victims, described now being scared because of the killings and random violence at the complex. "How could someone hurt all of them like that?" Barton asked with tears in her eyes. "They will never be able to justify this."

Anyone with information about the shootings is asked to call Crime Stoppers at 918-596-COPS or visit tulsaworld.com/crimestoppers Tips may be submitted anonymously, and tipsters may be eligible for a cash reward.

The deaths bring the Tulsa homicide total for 2013 to six.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article. ... TLIN842289
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

BWV 1080
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Re: American Massacres

Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:19 pm

While these incidents are tragic, statistically they are a meaningless risk. Nor are mass shooting on an upward trend. Deaths from all mass shooting, defined as gun homicides with at least 4 victims (a criterion that likely includes a significant number of domestic and drug-related killings), have fluctuated around an average of less than 100 per year since the late 70s. On a per-capita basis there is actually a decrease. Animals kill more people than this (http://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... y-animals/).

Image

http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime ... tings.html

jbuck919
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Re: American Massacres

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:28 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:Animals kill more people than this.
And heart disease kills more people than communicable disease, so I guess it's OK to stop doing research on vaccines and cures for what you can catch.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Teresa B
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Re: American Massacres

Post by Teresa B » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:47 pm

...Not to mention, mass shootings are only part of the tragedy of gun-related killings in the country every year. They are, however, a wake-up call to stimulate some action to limit gun violence.
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

BWV 1080
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Re: American Massacres

Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:01 pm

Teresa B wrote:...Not to mention, mass shootings are only part of the tragedy of gun-related killings in the country every year. They are, however, a wake-up call to stimulate some action to limit gun violence.
if you want to put a dent in the largest component of gun violence, legalize drugs (and these are killings that are primarily done with illegal weapons, so more laws will not help much)
The number of people murdered in the drug war inside the United States between 2006 and 2010 exceeds the US-troop death toll in the Iraq War since it was launched in 2003, according to a Narco News analysis of FBI crime statistics.
The US drug-war homicide tally also is nearly three times greater than the number of US soldiers killed in Afghanistan since the first shots were fired in that war in 2001, the Narco News analysis shows.
And that US drug-war murder total — nearly 5,700 people cut down on US soil over the 5-year period examined by Narco News — very likely undercounts significantly the extent of the bloodshed.
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebo ... -1100-year

John F
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Re: American Massacres

Post by John F » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:41 pm

Making guns illegal makes it possible to arrest people for possessing them illegally, before actually using them to rob or kill. That seems to me a saner policy than waiting until after a shooting to make the arrest.
John Francis

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