Obama's Jobs Speech

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lennygoran
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:07 am

>Yes, I admit it, the Constitution was conceived before me and I have a propensity to cling to it...<

But not always--you don't favor slavery and you want women to vote, right. This Perry likes his states rights approach but he doesn't impress me--here's the way one guy sees him:

"Gov. Rick Perry, the newly minted Republican presidential front-runner, participated in his first presidential debate on Wednesday and did his best imitation of Andy Griffith on acid. He said that he believes Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, global warming is based on shaky science and hasn’t struggled at all with executing more inmates in Texas than any governor in recent American history.

This man shouldn’t even be allowed to traipse his boots and spurs into the White House for a visit, let alone take up residence there. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/10/opini ... nted=print

Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:18 am

lennygoran wrote:>Yes, I admit it, the Constitution was conceived before me and I have a propensity to cling to it...<

But not always--you don't favor slavery and you want women to vote, right. This Perry likes his states rights approach but he doesn't impress me--here's the way one guy sees him:

"Gov. Rick Perry, the newly minted Republican presidential front-runner, participated in his first presidential debate on Wednesday and did his best imitation of Andy Griffith on acid. He said that he believes Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, global warming is based on shaky science and hasn’t struggled at all with executing more inmates in Texas than any governor in recent American history.

This man shouldn’t even be allowed to traipse his boots and spurs into the White House for a visit, let alone take up residence there. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/10/opini ... nted=print

Regards, Len
Whoa, wait a minute, did you miss the part about adding amendments to the Constitution? I believe in all the Constitution offers us... I also love the high hurdle to pass amendments so we don't make changes just because a greedy selfish generation, like the baby boomer generation, wants to make changes based on their base desires. I love everything about the Constitution.

Also, remember Perry was very specific in framing how SS is a ponzi scheme - and even Chris Matthews agreed with Perry. I can provide the video upon request. :) Please let me know why you think Perry was wrong in his description of SS, but please remember to educate yourself on his exact words before you do - not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

Teresa B
Posts: 3057
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 11:04 am
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by Teresa B » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:34 pm

keaggy220 wrote:Also, remember Perry was very specific in framing how SS is a ponzi scheme - and even Chris Matthews agreed with Perry. I can provide the video upon request. Please let me know why you think Perry was wrong in his description of SS, but please remember to educate yourself on his exact words before you do - not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.
Ponzi schemes are structured so that more and more investors have to be brought in, in order to keep big paybacks coming to the earlier investors. Social Security, while it pays current recipients from funds coming in from future ones, is not a Ponzi scheme. Other than inflation, and the larger number of people living longer, one huge reason it is in danger of collapsing is the number of baby boomers who are coming into the system compared with the significantly smaller number in the next generation.

However Perry frames it, what does he expect to do, eliminate Social Security? If he runs on that, he can fugeddaboudit.
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:19 pm

Teresa B wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:Also, remember Perry was very specific in framing how SS is a ponzi scheme - and even Chris Matthews agreed with Perry. I can provide the video upon request. Please let me know why you think Perry was wrong in his description of SS, but please remember to educate yourself on his exact words before you do - not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.
Ponzi schemes are structured so that more and more investors have to be brought in, in order to keep big paybacks coming to the earlier investors. Social Security, while it pays current recipients from funds coming in from future ones, is not a Ponzi scheme. Other than inflation, and the larger number of people living longer, one huge reason it is in danger of collapsing is the number of baby boomers who are coming into the system compared with the significantly smaller number in the next generation.

However Perry frames it, what does he expect to do, eliminate Social Security? If he runs on that, he can fugeddaboudit.
We are telling the current generation that SS will be there but no one is doing anything to ensure that it it will be there for them so SS is a lie and a Ponzi scheme for the specific generation Perry addressed.

I have no idea what Perry wants to do with SS, but jumping to extreme assumptions like yours is perplexing to me...

Remember that Perry, like almost all elite candidates crave power over everything else and eliminating SS eliminates some of the power they have over people - so this will never happen.

Remember how Obama, trying desperately to get his way, threatened not to pay SS? That's power - real power - he was reminding the elderly and poor who their master is and that he is fully capable of making them suffer. Imagine how powerful politicians will be when they decide who gets health care.

By the way, the biggest difference between a traditional Ponzi scheme and a government Ponzi scheme is that the traditional Ponzi scheme is voluntary.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15957
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:15 pm

>not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.<

You must think I'm still using my awkward blackberry where it's hard to copy and paste and go back to different screens--nope my trusty PC has you cornered now--be ready to be bombarded by the NY Times--this will complete a great day of private NJ gardens and now completely repudiating you! :) :) :) :

Metaphors Can Work. This One Doesn't.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... d-metaphor

Updated September 9, 2011, 03:26 PM

Michael Lind is policy director of the Economic Growth Program at the New America Foundation and author of "Made in Texas: George W. Bush and the Southern Takeover of American Politics."

Metaphors have a place in political rhetoric. But even as a metaphor, Gov. Rick Perry’s comparison of Social Security to a Ponzi scheme doesn’t work.

Ponzi schemes like the ones run by Charles Ponzi and Bernard Madoff can work only if their operators keep investors in the dark about the source of their alleged magical returns. No more scrupulously honest organization exists than the Social Security Administration. Not only does the administration mail citizens reports detailing their expected contributions and receipts from Social Security, but it also publishes annual reports indicating future shortfalls and sternly calling for action to deal with them.

Ponzis depend on fraud, but there is no organization more scrupulously honest than the Social Security Administration.

Some critics of Social Security seem to equate it with a Ponzi scheme because the growth of payouts depends on growth of the number of future taxpayers, in the case of Social Security, or future investors, in the case of classic Ponzi schemes. By this definition, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme — and so are the private investment accounts that many conservatives propose as an alternative to Social Security. Whether the intermediary is the government or private money managers, in both cases the income of retirees will depend on money generated by the economic activity of succeeding generations in the work force. The main difference is that private investments are riskier than promises by the federal government of the United States to pay benefits to seniors who have paid payroll taxes all their lives.

Social Security was partly pre-funded in 1983. This raised payroll taxes above immediate program costs in order to create a trust fund that lent money to the U.S. government, which must repay the trust fund as any other creditor would. Social Security will not become a pure pay-as-you-go system until 2036, according to the latest government estimates. Even then, there will be only a modest shortfall in benefits, which can be eliminated in advance by higher payroll taxes, permanent infusions of general revenue or other non-payroll taxes, or benefit reductions — or a combination of these reforms. A Social Security system funded purely by current taxes would no more be a Ponzi scheme than the U.S. military or the public school system.

To paraphrase the late David Crockett — as a U.S. congressman from Tennessee, before he died in 1836 at the Alamo during the fight for the independence of Texas — Governor Perry’s claim that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme don’t make good sense. It don’t even make good nonsense."

Regards, Len

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:47 pm

lennygoran wrote:>not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.<

You must think I'm still using my awkward blackberry where it's hard to copy and paste and go back to different screens--nope my trusty PC has you cornered now--be ready to be bombarded by the NY Times--this will complete a great day of private NJ gardens and now completely repudiating you! :) :) :) :

Metaphors Can Work. This One Doesn't.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... d-metaphor

Updated September 9, 2011, 03:26 PM

Michael Lind is policy director of the Economic Growth Program at the New America Foundation and author of "Made in Texas: George W. Bush and the Southern Takeover of American Politics."

Metaphors have a place in political rhetoric. But even as a metaphor, Gov. Rick Perry’s comparison of Social Security to a Ponzi scheme doesn’t work.

Ponzi schemes like the ones run by Charles Ponzi and Bernard Madoff can work only if their operators keep investors in the dark about the source of their alleged magical returns. No more scrupulously honest organization exists than the Social Security Administration. Not only does the administration mail citizens reports detailing their expected contributions and receipts from Social Security, but it also publishes annual reports indicating future shortfalls and sternly calling for action to deal with them.

Ponzis depend on fraud, but there is no organization more scrupulously honest than the Social Security Administration.

Some critics of Social Security seem to equate it with a Ponzi scheme because the growth of payouts depends on growth of the number of future taxpayers, in the case of Social Security, or future investors, in the case of classic Ponzi schemes. By this definition, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme — and so are the private investment accounts that many conservatives propose as an alternative to Social Security. Whether the intermediary is the government or private money managers, in both cases the income of retirees will depend on money generated by the economic activity of succeeding generations in the work force. The main difference is that private investments are riskier than promises by the federal government of the United States to pay benefits to seniors who have paid payroll taxes all their lives.

Social Security was partly pre-funded in 1983. This raised payroll taxes above immediate program costs in order to create a trust fund that lent money to the U.S. government, which must repay the trust fund as any other creditor would. Social Security will not become a pure pay-as-you-go system until 2036, according to the latest government estimates. Even then, there will be only a modest shortfall in benefits, which can be eliminated in advance by higher payroll taxes, permanent infusions of general revenue or other non-payroll taxes, or benefit reductions — or a combination of these reforms. A Social Security system funded purely by current taxes would no more be a Ponzi scheme than the U.S. military or the public school system.

To paraphrase the late David Crockett — as a U.S. congressman from Tennessee, before he died in 1836 at the Alamo during the fight for the independence of Texas — Governor Perry’s claim that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme don’t make good sense. It don’t even make good nonsense."

Regards, Len
Your NYT's article does not impress me. Isn't it much too early to say that Social Security isn't a fraud? SS has certainly made payments on time for years - and so did Madoff. But what Perry is saying is that the government is forcing young people to contribute (remember, ponzi schemes are voluntary) to SS and there is currently not enough money to pay for their retirement. This is a fact. It's laughable to call SS more honest than a ponzi scheme because there's no reason for the government to be deceptive at all (even though they are) - we're all forced to give - like it or not... Right now I'm being told that I, along with anyone born after 1960, will have full SS benefits at age 67. If that age changes I count that as fraud. This is what happens when the government is involved - they change the rules and I pay more, but I receive less.

The example of Bernie Mad(e)off is laughable. He published reports quarter after quarter that clearly passed the scrutiny test of his many investors and, ahem, government auditors - likely the same people or the same type people publishing the SS reports...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

Teresa B
Posts: 3057
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 11:04 am
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by Teresa B » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:15 pm

keaggy220 wrote:
Teresa B wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:Also, remember Perry was very specific in framing how SS is a ponzi scheme - and even Chris Matthews agreed with Perry. I can provide the video upon request. Please let me know why you think Perry was wrong in his description of SS, but please remember to educate yourself on his exact words before you do - not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.
Ponzi schemes are structured so that more and more investors have to be brought in, in order to keep big paybacks coming to the earlier investors. Social Security, while it pays current recipients from funds coming in from future ones, is not a Ponzi scheme. Other than inflation, and the larger number of people living longer, one huge reason it is in danger of collapsing is the number of baby boomers who are coming into the system compared with the significantly smaller number in the next generation.

However Perry frames it, what does he expect to do, eliminate Social Security? If he runs on that, he can fugeddaboudit.
We are telling the current generation that SS will be there but no one is doing anything to ensure that it it will be there for them so SS is a lie and a Ponzi scheme for the specific generation Perry addressed.

I have no idea what Perry wants to do with SS, but jumping to extreme assumptions like yours is perplexing to me...

Remember that Perry, like almost all elite candidates crave power over everything else and eliminating SS eliminates some of the power they have over people - so this will never happen.

Remember how Obama, trying desperately to get his way, threatened not to pay SS? That's power - real power - he was reminding the elderly and poor who their master is and that he is fully capable of making them suffer. Imagine how powerful politicians will be when they decide who gets health care.

By the way, the biggest difference between a traditional Ponzi scheme and a government Ponzi scheme is that the traditional Ponzi scheme is voluntary.
Why are you so paranoid about Obama's so-called "threat" not to pay SS--(which was a response to the Republican hostage-taking over the debt ceiling, so it was actually they who would have been responsible for a delay in SS checks)--and yet you aren't concerned about Perry's comments on SS? If it's a Ponzi scheme, why would he want to continue it? If he simply thinks his base is dumb enough to support him knowing his views on SS, then so be it.

If we had a Medicare for All system, politicians would not decide who gets health care, because everyone would have it. Currently we are at the mercy of insurance companies, who are reminding the elderly and the poor that they are fully capable of making them suffer.

Amazing how we can still find no common ground due to our preconceived ideologies!
:wink:
Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Teresa B wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
Teresa B wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:Also, remember Perry was very specific in framing how SS is a ponzi scheme - and even Chris Matthews agreed with Perry. I can provide the video upon request. Please let me know why you think Perry was wrong in his description of SS, but please remember to educate yourself on his exact words before you do - not just to rely on a political hacks version of Perry's words.
Ponzi schemes are structured so that more and more investors have to be brought in, in order to keep big paybacks coming to the earlier investors. Social Security, while it pays current recipients from funds coming in from future ones, is not a Ponzi scheme. Other than inflation, and the larger number of people living longer, one huge reason it is in danger of collapsing is the number of baby boomers who are coming into the system compared with the significantly smaller number in the next generation.

However Perry frames it, what does he expect to do, eliminate Social Security? If he runs on that, he can fugeddaboudit.
We are telling the current generation that SS will be there but no one is doing anything to ensure that it it will be there for them so SS is a lie and a Ponzi scheme for the specific generation Perry addressed.

I have no idea what Perry wants to do with SS, but jumping to extreme assumptions like yours is perplexing to me...

Remember that Perry, like almost all elite candidates crave power over everything else and eliminating SS eliminates some of the power they have over people - so this will never happen.

Remember how Obama, trying desperately to get his way, threatened not to pay SS? That's power - real power - he was reminding the elderly and poor who their master is and that he is fully capable of making them suffer. Imagine how powerful politicians will be when they decide who gets health care.

By the way, the biggest difference between a traditional Ponzi scheme and a government Ponzi scheme is that the traditional Ponzi scheme is voluntary.
Why are you so paranoid about Obama's so-called "threat" not to pay SS--(which was a response to the Republican hostage-taking over the debt ceiling, so it was actually they who would have been responsible for a delay in SS checks)--and yet you aren't concerned about Perry's comments on SS? If it's a Ponzi scheme, why would he want to continue it? If he simply thinks his base is dumb enough to support him knowing his views on SS, then so be it.

If we had a Medicare for All system, politicians would not decide who gets health care, because everyone would have it. Currently we are at the mercy of insurance companies, who are reminding the elderly and the poor that they are fully capable of making them suffer.

Amazing how we can still find no common ground due to our preconceived ideologies!
:wink:
Teresa
There were numerous articles out at the time that made it clear that if the government shutdown paying SS checks would not be a problem - unless the government wanted it to be a problem. During a shutdown the government would still take in over $200 billion a month. Obviously Obama meant it as a threat to try and mobilize the old and poor in order for Obama to get his way.

Perry is the only one calling a spade a spade right now. He's saying that young workers are being forced to contribute in an "investment" with absolutely no way of fulfilling its obligations. This is a indisputable fact. This has nothing to do with preconceived ideas. Right now these workers are being told they will receive full benefits at age 67. This is a joke. I interpret Perry's views as someone who wants to create an honest system, not someone who wants to shut it down. Your view on Perry in this matter is nonsensical. No politician outside of maybe Ron Paul would shutdown SS - and I doubt even he would... They like the power too much.

Health care for all? Yes you're right, politicians wouldn't decide who gets healthcare, but they would decide many other factors. One example is if tax revenues get tight then an 80 year old sucking our system dry would not get the same priority for the same procedure as a 50 year old who pays taxes.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15957
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:12 am

>The example of Bernie Mad(e)off is laughable.<

Not as laughable as the ponzi fraud you perpertrated on this forum--you promised that you'd changed--every time I think of the compliments you received for that alleged change I just bristle! Regards, Len :)

lennygoran
Posts: 15957
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:18 am

>Perry is the only one calling a spade a spade right now. <

Yeah but is he calling Galileo a scientist!

> One example is if tax revenues get tight then an 80 year old sucking our system dry would not get the same priority for the same procedure as a 50 year old who pays taxes.<

OTOH we must try and eliminate costly miracle procedures with practically no chance of working that are helping to put our Medicare system into bankruptcy. Regards, Len

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:21 am

lennygoran wrote:>The example of Bernie Mad(e)off is laughable.<

Not as laughable as the ponzi fraud you perpertrated on this forum--you promised that you'd changed--every time I think of the compliments you received for that alleged change I just bristle! Regards, Len :)
Envy and delusion are not your friends - let them go, you'll be happier...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:29 am

lennygoran wrote:>Perry is the only one calling a spade a spade right now. <

Yeah but is he calling Galileo a scientist!

> One example is if tax revenues get tight then an 80 year old sucking our system dry would not get the same priority for the same procedure as a 50 year old who pays taxes.<

OTOH we must try and eliminate costly miracle procedures with practically no chance of working that are helping to put our Medicare system into bankruptcy. Regards, Len
Wow, you just changed the subject pretty dramatically.... I'm not losing focus - sorry... We need to fix this Ponzi scheme first...

Perry is still the only one calling out SS for being perpetrated on our young as currently viable when it's not.... Can you believe our government is telling these young workers that they will receive full benefits at 67? If this were the private sector, like Madoff, people would be going to jail.

Thank goodness one politician is being honest about this - which is the first step to getting the issue fixed. Obviously these young workers will have the rug pulled out from underneath them and the age of full benefits will go up substantially which means more will die before receiving one thin dime in their lifetime "investment." It's shameful.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15957
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:43 am

>Envy and delusion are not your friends - let them go, you'll be happier...<

You're wrong--they are my friends--the world of opera is full of plots with envious characters and delusion--I'll never let them go! And envy for those people who can afford to keep their gardens looking so beautiful like the ones we visited yesterday here in NJ--those millionaires you like to protect from paying more taxes--I'll always be envious and resentful of them--however I do appreciate that they at least opened their gardens to peasants like me and Sue! Regards, Len :mrgreen:

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keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:49 am

lennygoran wrote:>Envy and delusion are not your friends - let them go, you'll be happier...<

You're wrong--they are my friends--the world of opera is full of plots with envious characters and delusion--I'll never let them go! And envy for those people who can afford to keep their gardens looking so beautiful like the ones we visited yesterday here in NJ--those millionaires you like to protect from paying more taxes--I'll always be envious and resentful of them--however I do appreciate that they at least opened their gardens to peasants like me and Sue! Regards, Len :mrgreen:

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And how many of those operas end without tragedy? :D

Beautiful shots... Have you been to Magnolia Plantation and Gardens in Charleston? I've been once, but it was late May, if I go again it will be late March or April.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15957
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:55 am

>Wow, you just changed the subject pretty dramatically.... I'm not losing focus - sorry... We need to fix this Ponzi scheme first...<

Sorry but a president must work on more than one problem at a time and you're the one who brought up the 80 year old "sucking" the system.

>Perry is still the only one calling out SS for being perpetrated on our young as currently viable when it's not....<

Romney hit him good on that nonsensical ponzi statement he made--a sensible let's fix it response--I can see the Democrats playing that clip over and over! Instead of blindly defending Perry you should as a right wing republican tea party guy be so embarrassed right now--I as a Republican am embarrassed too--where are our candidates--what a crew. Even Huntsman--he had his chance to really go to the mat with Perry but backed off. :(

> If this were the private sector, like Madoff, people would be going to jail.<

I'm still waiting for more private sector people to go to jail--look what they did on Wall St. and with the derivatives--come on, get with it--private heads have to roll.

>Thank goodness one politician is being honest about this <

Are you referring to his Galileo remark--at least admit he screwed up badly with that one. Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:55 am

lennygoran wrote:>Envy and delusion are not your friends - let them go, you'll be happier...<

You're wrong--they are my friends--the world of opera is full of plots with envious characters and delusion--I'll never let them go! And envy for those people who can afford to keep their gardens looking so beautiful like the ones we visited yesterday here in NJ--those millionaires you like to protect from paying more taxes--I'll always be envious and resentful of them--however I do appreciate that they at least opened their gardens to peasants like me and Sue! Regards, Len :mrgreen:

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This is funny. I literally just picked up and started reading "Self Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson and the very first line is this:

There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide.

Oh my friend, this is a sign - let it go before it's too late...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

keaggy220
Posts: 4721
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:06 am

lennygoran wrote:>Wow, you just changed the subject pretty dramatically.... I'm not losing focus - sorry... We need to fix this Ponzi scheme first...<

Sorry but a president must work on more than one problem at a time and you're the one who brought up the 80 year old "sucking" the system.

>Perry is still the only one calling out SS for being perpetrated on our young as currently viable when it's not....<

Romney hit him good on that nonsensical ponzi statement he made--a sensible let's fix it response--I can see the Democrats playing that clip over and over! Instead of blindly defending Perry you should as a right wing republican tea party guy be so embarrassed right now--I as a Republican am embarrassed too--where are our candidates--what a crew. Even Huntsman--he had his chance to really go to the mat with Perry but backed off. :(

> If this were the private sector, like Madoff, people would be going to jail.<

I'm still waiting for more private sector people to go to jail--look what they did on Wall St. and with the derivatives--come on, get with it--private heads have to roll.

>Thank goodness one politician is being honest about this <

Are you referring to his Galileo remark--at least admit he screwed up badly with that one. Regards, Len
Romney was envious that he didn't think of it first. :lol: Look at this poll and feel the envy as Perry taps into broad dissatisfaction of the American voter:

Image

Democrats can play it over and over, but it won't do any good because many people know that SS is broken and the average voter is looking for honesty and Perry is giving it to them.

I'm not for Perry or anyone at this point... This is all red meat time for the candidates - mostly all lies... No one is getting rid of SS. Heck, Perry is much more likely planning to put more resources into it if he's elected.

Huntsman, along with several others shouldn't be on the stage. He's polling at 1%. What a waste of everyone's time and money.

I'm not familiar with the Galileo remark, but any candidate reaching back hundreds of years to make a point is obviously throwing out red meat and most people understand that...
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:08 am

>And how many of those operas end without tragedy? <

That's a tough question because alot of the Eurotrash directors are changing the operas around--a comedy like Mozart's Abduction From the Seraglio is changed to having the pasha ordering the cutting off of his slaves nipples. :( I just hope this presidential election doesn't end in tragedy.


>Have you been to Magnolia Plantation and Gardens in Charleston? I've been once, but it was late May, if I go again it will be late March or April.<

We were in Charleston more than once but it's been a long time--we visited some plantations but for some reason seem to have missed that garden--it looks just superb--I think we have to return. I also remember visiting lit up gardens in the residential central section of Charleston--just a superb experience--small impeccable gems.

http://www.magnoliaplantation.com/

Thanks for this alert. Regards, Len

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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:15 am

>I'm not familiar with the Galileo remark, but any candidate reaching back hundreds of years to make a point is obviously throwing out red meat and most people understand that...<

NY Magazine has summed it up beautifully

Rick Perry’s Galileo Analogy Was Embarrassingly Flawed


You knew that at some point last night, the moderators at the Republican debate were going to bring up some of the recent scientific controversies that have so appalled the East Coast media elite. Disappointingly, they didn't force the candidates to declare whether or not they believe in evolution. But they did put Rick Perry, the race's most prominent anti-science candidate, on the spot over his insistence that man-made climate change was merely a hoax. How could he be so skeptical when the vast majority of scientists — experts who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than he does — insist that it's real? Perry's response was unexpected, counter-productive, and frankly embarrassing.

Well, I do agree that there is — the science is — is not settled on this. The idea that we would put Americans' economy at — at — at jeopardy based on scientific theory that's not settled yet, to me, is just — is nonsense. I mean, it — I mean — and I tell somebody, I said, just because you have a group of scientists that have stood up and said here is the fact, Galileo got outvoted for a spell.

Galileo, of course, was punished for supporting the Copernican view of the heliocentric universe — not very popular at the time — and his theory was eventually vindicated. So, Perry argues, who can say whether the tiny minority of scientists who refute the idea of man-made climate change won't be vindicated as well?

There is a parallel between Galileo and the debate over climate change, but it's not the one Perry intended to make. Galileo's groundbreaking scientific findings were not "outvoted" by other scientists, but by the clergy and the Vatican, who based their astronomical theories on the rigorous scientific tome known as the Bible. What the Galileo example really demonstrates is that ideology has been used as a weapon and shield against actual empirical evidence for hundreds of years. And it continues to this day, courtesy of political leaders like Pope Perry.


http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/09/ri ... rming.html

Regards, Len

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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:24 am

lennygoran wrote:>I'm not familiar with the Galileo remark, but any candidate reaching back hundreds of years to make a point is obviously throwing out red meat and most people understand that...<

NY Magazine has summed it up beautifully

Rick Perry’s Galileo Analogy Was Embarrassingly Flawed


You knew that at some point last night, the moderators at the Republican debate were going to bring up some of the recent scientific controversies that have so appalled the East Coast media elite. Disappointingly, they didn't force the candidates to declare whether or not they believe in evolution. But they did put Rick Perry, the race's most prominent anti-science candidate, on the spot over his insistence that man-made climate change was merely a hoax. How could he be so skeptical when the vast majority of scientists — experts who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than he does — insist that it's real? Perry's response was unexpected, counter-productive, and frankly embarrassing.

Well, I do agree that there is — the science is — is not settled on this. The idea that we would put Americans' economy at — at — at jeopardy based on scientific theory that's not settled yet, to me, is just — is nonsense. I mean, it — I mean — and I tell somebody, I said, just because you have a group of scientists that have stood up and said here is the fact, Galileo got outvoted for a spell.

Galileo, of course, was punished for supporting the Copernican view of the heliocentric universe — not very popular at the time — and his theory was eventually vindicated. So, Perry argues, who can say whether the tiny minority of scientists who refute the idea of man-made climate change won't be vindicated as well?

There is a parallel between Galileo and the debate over climate change, but it's not the one Perry intended to make. Galileo's groundbreaking scientific findings were not "outvoted" by other scientists, but by the clergy and the Vatican, who based their astronomical theories on the rigorous scientific tome known as the Bible. What the Galileo example really demonstrates is that ideology has been used as a weapon and shield against actual empirical evidence for hundreds of years. And it continues to this day, courtesy of political leaders like Pope Perry.


http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/09/ri ... rming.html

Regards, Len
That's funny, Perry was reaching there... But as the article correctly points out - it's the east coast media elite that are mostly appalled by the scientific views of most Republican candidates. Conservative candidates actually score huge points with a broad swath of voters for appalling the elite.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

Teresa B
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by Teresa B » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:56 am

keaggy220 wrote:That's funny, Perry was reaching there... But as the article correctly points out - it's the east coast media elite that are mostly appalled by the scientific views of most Republican candidates. Conservative candidates actually score huge points with a broad swath of voters for appalling the elite.
As I've lamented before, scientific fact is not political--either climate change is occurring, or it isn't; and evolution by natural selection is either happening, or it isn't, and politics has nothing to do with it. In the case of these two issues, both have so much evidence to support them, they are viewed by a vastly overwhelming majority of scientists to be fact.

Yes, I'm sure the "east coast media elite" are appalled by the "scientific" (a term I use loosely here) views of these Republican candidates, but of course it isn't only the "media elite"-- it's anyone who has some knowledge of the very basics of science; if a broad swath of voters are so pleased with the notion that the "elite" should be appalled at profound ignorance in a candidate for U.S. President, it only speaks for their own stupidity.

Anti-intellectual, anti-science: a very bad reason for putting someone in office, and we already tried it anyway in 2000.

Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

lennygoran
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:08 am

>Conservative candidates actually score huge points with a broad swath of voters for appalling the elite.<

How broad a swath I couldn't say but definitely there are a lot of evangelicals out there. Regards, Len :(

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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:07 pm

Teresa B wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:That's funny, Perry was reaching there... But as the article correctly points out - it's the east coast media elite that are mostly appalled by the scientific views of most Republican candidates. Conservative candidates actually score huge points with a broad swath of voters for appalling the elite.
As I've lamented before, scientific fact is not political--either climate change is occurring, or it isn't; and evolution by natural selection is either happening, or it isn't, and politics has nothing to do with it. In the case of these two issues, both have so much evidence to support them, they are viewed by a vastly overwhelming majority of scientists to be fact.

Yes, I'm sure the "east coast media elite" are appalled by the "scientific" (a term I use loosely here) views of these Republican candidates, but of course it isn't only the "media elite"-- it's anyone who has some knowledge of the very basics of science; if a broad swath of voters are so pleased with the notion that the "elite" should be appalled at profound ignorance in a candidate for U.S. President, it only speaks for their own stupidity.

Anti-intellectual, anti-science: a very bad reason for putting someone in office, and we already tried it anyway in 2000.

Teresa
I agree that we shouldn't be quizzing our politicians on science. They're not scientists, they're politicians - leave the scientific observation to scientists. The public at large can choose whether they believe those observations... However, subjects such as evolution and global warming has nothing to do with getting votes.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

RebLem
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by RebLem » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:56 pm

keaggy220 wrote: We are telling the current generation that SS will be there but no one is doing anything to ensure that it it will be there for them so SS is a lie and a Ponzi scheme for the specific generation Perry addressed.

I have no idea what Perry wants to do with SS, but jumping to extreme assumptions like yours is perplexing to me...

Remember that Perry, like almost all elite candidates crave power over everything else and eliminating SS eliminates some of the power they have over people - so this will never happen.

Remember how Obama, trying desperately to get his way, threatened not to pay SS? That's power - real power - he was reminding the elderly and poor who their master is and that he is fully capable of making them suffer. Imagine how powerful politicians will be when they decide who gets health care.

By the way, the biggest difference between a traditional Ponzi scheme and a government Ponzi scheme is that the traditional Ponzi scheme is voluntary.
SSA (as distinct from Medicare, which is a different problem) is solvent at present benefit levels and predictable COLAs through about 2036. After that, if we do nothing other than eliminate the recent payroll tax reductions, we will be able to pay benefits indefinitely @ about 80% of present levels, and it is a very simple matter to make it 100%--simply apply SSA taxes to incomes over $250,000. Actually, that leaves a doughnut hole, because we do not now tax incomes above about $100,000, but Obama has a campaign promise not to raise taxes on anyone making less than a quarter mil to keep, and that's the reason for the doughnut hole.

The passage in your post I have underlined suggests that you are a gambler. Its like the election is a game of Lets Make a Deal, and you want to take the unknown prize behind the curtain rather than the very good, certain prizes Monty Hall is offering you. We can't elect Monty Hall president because he was born in Canada, so you think Rick Perry is the next best thing. I am willing to gamble like that with only a very small part of my income, but doing it with my whole life, everything I own or can own in the future is suicidal, frivolous, and totally irresponsible, and is simply not advocated by serious people.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:00 pm

RebLem wrote:
keaggy220 wrote: We are telling the current generation that SS will be there but no one is doing anything to ensure that it it will be there for them so SS is a lie and a Ponzi scheme for the specific generation Perry addressed.

I have no idea what Perry wants to do with SS, but jumping to extreme assumptions like yours is perplexing to me...

Remember that Perry, like almost all elite candidates crave power over everything else and eliminating SS eliminates some of the power they have over people - so this will never happen.

Remember how Obama, trying desperately to get his way, threatened not to pay SS? That's power - real power - he was reminding the elderly and poor who their master is and that he is fully capable of making them suffer. Imagine how powerful politicians will be when they decide who gets health care.

By the way, the biggest difference between a traditional Ponzi scheme and a government Ponzi scheme is that the traditional Ponzi scheme is voluntary.
SSA (as distinct from Medicare, which is a different problem) is solvent at present benefit levels and predictable COLAs through about 2036. After that, if we do nothing other than eliminate the recent payroll tax reductions, we will be able to pay benefits indefinitely @ about 80% of present levels, and it is a very simple matter to make it 100%--simply apply SSA taxes to incomes over $250,000. Actually, that leaves a doughnut hole, because we do not now tax incomes above about $100,000, but Obama has a campaign promise not to raise taxes on anyone making less than a quarter mil to keep, and that's the reason for the doughnut hole.

The passage in your post I have underlined suggests that you are a gambler. Its like the election is a game of Lets Make a Deal, and you want to take the unknown prize behind the curtain rather than the very good, certain prizes Monty Hall is offering you. We can't elect Monty Hall president because he was born in Canada, so you think Rick Perry is the next best thing. I am willing to gamble like that with only a very small part of my income, but doing it with my whole life, everything I own or can own in the future is simply suicidal.
It's really not a gamble. Both Republicans and Democrats have consistently increased the size and scope of the federal government. There is no evidence that this is going to change. Oh there's been plenty of rhetoric, but once elected... :(
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

HoustonDavid
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Len, I would have to agree that Keaggy's claims of turning over a new leaf are proving
terribly misleading - he (we assume Keaggy is a he) appears as hard-headed and unyielding
as in the past. He reminds me of another one-topic, hard-headed member whose world view
is limited to another singular topic Rick Perry also denies: climate change.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

lennygoran
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:47 am

>Len, I would have to agree that Keaggy's claims of turning over a new leaf are proving
terribly misleading <

I'm telling you--he's a Ponzi Scheme! Regards, Len [fleeing]

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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by John F » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:51 am

Hey, guys, let's not get personal about each other.
John Francis

keaggy220
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:13 am

HoustonDavid wrote:Len, I would have to agree that Keaggy's claims of turning over a new leaf are proving
terribly misleading - he (we assume Keaggy is a he) appears as hard-headed and unyielding
as in the past. He reminds me of another one-topic, hard-headed member whose world view
is limited to another singular topic Rick Perry also denies: climate change.
Yes, I don't agree with you on this particular subject so I haven't changed in anyway at all... How dull... Sigh...

One of the ways I've changed is this - 2 years ago I would've believed Perry's rhetoric about SS - today I know there is no chance he will reduce the size of SS. His rhetoric is the typical red meat that candidates - both liberal and conservative, like to serve up during this early stage of the election cycle for the benefit of gaining support from their base - the puppets. The puppets will eventually decide which candidate to elevate to hero status. I've also noticed how the counteraction from the party faithful of the opposition is to relegate the offending candidate to villain status - it's like we are playing out comic books. I would think that all keen observers of political theater would pick up on this after living through several election cycles, but I guess not...

I understand the temptation to call someone hard-headed when they don't agree with your own "perfect" opinion so reactions such as yours are predictable and unfortunately - common.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:22 am

>I understand the temptation to call someone hard-headed when they don't agree with your own "perfect" opinion so reactions such as yours are predictable and unfortunately - common.<

Hey we Obama supporters gotta show the Harry Truman in us! Regards, Len [rapidly retreating] :)

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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by RebLem » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:10 pm

keaggy220 wrote:
HoustonDavid wrote:Len, I would have to agree that Keaggy's claims of turning over a new leaf are proving
terribly misleading - he (we assume Keaggy is a he) appears as hard-headed and unyielding
as in the past. He reminds me of another one-topic, hard-headed member whose world view
is limited to another singular topic Rick Perry also denies: climate change.
Yes, I don't agree with you on this particular subject so I haven't changed in anyway at all... How dull... Sigh...

One of the ways I've changed is this - 2 years ago I would've believed Perry's rhetoric about SS - today I know there is no chance he will reduce the size of SS. His rhetoric is the typical red meat that candidates - both liberal and conservative, like to serve up during this early stage of the election cycle for the benefit of gaining support from their base - the puppets. The puppets will eventually decide which candidate to elevate to hero status. I've also noticed how the counteraction from the party faithful of the opposition is to relegate the offending candidate to villain status - it's like we are playing out comic books. I would think that all keen observers of political theater would pick up on this after living through several election cycles, but I guess not...

I understand the temptation to call someone hard-headed when they don't agree with your own "perfect" opinion so reactions such as yours are predictable and unfortunately - common.
I don't think you would ever have believed Perry's rhetoric, but I think you would have sought to defend it anyway. Now, you realize that the GOPer case on a great many matters is simply so indefensible that no perspicacious person can believe it, so you have turned to a different tactic--trying to make us believe that all politicians advocate policies which are equally indefensible. In other words, you're trying to get Democrats to stay home so Republicants can win.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

keaggy220
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:11 pm

RebLem wrote:
keaggy220 wrote:
HoustonDavid wrote:Len, I would have to agree that Keaggy's claims of turning over a new leaf are proving
terribly misleading - he (we assume Keaggy is a he) appears as hard-headed and unyielding
as in the past. He reminds me of another one-topic, hard-headed member whose world view
is limited to another singular topic Rick Perry also denies: climate change.
Yes, I don't agree with you on this particular subject so I haven't changed in anyway at all... How dull... Sigh...

One of the ways I've changed is this - 2 years ago I would've believed Perry's rhetoric about SS - today I know there is no chance he will reduce the size of SS. His rhetoric is the typical red meat that candidates - both liberal and conservative, like to serve up during this early stage of the election cycle for the benefit of gaining support from their base - the puppets. The puppets will eventually decide which candidate to elevate to hero status. I've also noticed how the counteraction from the party faithful of the opposition is to relegate the offending candidate to villain status - it's like we are playing out comic books. I would think that all keen observers of political theater would pick up on this after living through several election cycles, but I guess not...

I understand the temptation to call someone hard-headed when they don't agree with your own "perfect" opinion so reactions such as yours are predictable and unfortunately - common.
I don't think you would ever have believed Perry's rhetoric, but I think you would have sought to defend it anyway. Now, you realize that the GOPer case on a great many matters is simply so indefensible that no perspicacious person can believe it, so you have turned to a different tactic--trying to make us believe that all politicians advocate policies which are equally indefensible. In other words, you're trying to get Democrats to stay home so Republicants can win.
Oh believe me, I was convinced the "good guys" would free me from the modern trappings of government control and return this country to the vision the pilgrims once had... I'm almost embarrassed to admit that... I now realize that those who seek power are not likely to give it up and many are obsessing over how to have more power - both Republican and Democrat.

I'm not concerned with the positions of the candidates right now - they're just trying to appeal to the base. It has nothing to do with the way they would govern.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:23 pm

>return this country to the vision the pilgrims once had<

The pilgrims--hadn't thought about this--where do the pilgrims stand on evolution and Darwin! Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:45 pm

lennygoran wrote:>return this country to the vision the pilgrims once had<

The pilgrims--hadn't thought about this--where do the pilgrims stand on evolution and Darwin! Regards, Len
I'm sure like almost every person in existence - it was so low on their priority list that they never thought about it. :wink:
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
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Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:49 pm

>it was so low on their priority list that they never thought about it.<

And this is where you want to return? Please say this isn't so! Regards, Len

keaggy220
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Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by keaggy220 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:57 pm

lennygoran wrote:>it was so low on their priority list that they never thought about it.<

And this is where you want to return? Please say this isn't so! Regards, Len
I'm sorry I don't preoccupy my thoughts with Darwin, Galileo, Newton, Einstein or any scientist.

I imagine the Pilgrims were more concerned about things like killing a deer so they could eat or defending themselves from a possible attack.
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

lennygoran
Posts: 15957
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Location: new york city

Re: Obama's Jobs Speech

Post by lennygoran » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:04 am

>I imagine the Pilgrims were more concerned about things like killing a deer so they could eat or defending themselves from a possible attack.<

More important--protecting their flower gardens! Regards, Len :)

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